Hello, all. I am just returning to soc.gen.med after some years of absence. I am looking into the Dennis family of Olveston, Gloucestershire and Dyrham. For some time, the maternity of Walter Dennis of Olveston, Gloucs. who died in 1505 has beenunconfirmed. He was the son of Maurice Denys/Dennis and supposedly Katherine/Joan Stradling, an alleged daughter of Edward Stradling of St.Donat’s and Joan Beaufort, said to be the illegitimate daughter of Cardinal Henry Beaufort, half brother of King
Steve Riggan
Hello, all. I am just returning to soc.gen.med after some years of absence. I am looking into the Dennis family of Olveston, Gloucestershire and Dyrham. For some time, the maternity of Walter Dennis of Olveston, Gloucs. who died in 1505 has beenunconfirmed. He was the son of Maurice Denys/Dennis and supposedly Katherine/Joan Stradling, an alleged daughter of Edward Stradling of St.Donat’s and Joan Beaufort, said to be the illegitimate daughter of Cardinal Henry Beaufort, half brother of King
Steve RigganThere is no doubt Joan was the Cardinal's daughter. I also see no reason to doubt Katherine's maternity as there is no evidence Edward Stradling had illegtimate children as Walter Dennis was of status to marry legítimate daughter of his.
On Sunday, October 10, 2021 at 5:04:16 PM UTC-7, affirm...@gmail.com wrote:unconfirmed. He was the son of Maurice Denys/Dennis and supposedly Katherine/Joan Stradling, an alleged daughter of Edward Stradling of St.Donat’s and Joan Beaufort, said to be the illegitimate daughter of Cardinal Henry Beaufort, half brother of King
Hello, all. I am just returning to soc.gen.med after some years of absence. I am looking into the Dennis family of Olveston, Gloucestershire and Dyrham. For some time, the maternity of Walter Dennis of Olveston, Gloucs. who died in 1505 has been
Steve RigganWhat evidence.
The Close Roll of 1479 states that her name was "Katherine daughter of Sir Edward Stradling"
A segunda-feira, 11 de outubro de 2021 à(s) 01:04:16 UTC+1, affirm...@gmail.com escreveu:unconfirmed. He was the son of Maurice Denys/Dennis and supposedly Katherine/Joan Stradling, an alleged daughter of Edward Stradling of St.Donat’s and Joan Beaufort, said to be the illegitimate daughter of Cardinal Henry Beaufort, half brother of King
Hello, all. I am just returning to soc.gen.med after some years of absence. I am looking into the Dennis family of Olveston, Gloucestershire and Dyrham. For some time, the maternity of Walter Dennis of Olveston, Gloucs. who died in 1505 has been
Steve RigganThere is no doubt Joan was the Cardinal's daughter. I also see no reason to doubt Katherine's maternity as there is no evidence Edward Stradling had illegtimate children as Walter Dennis was of status to marry legítimate daughter of his.
On Monday, October 11, 2021 at 4:29:49 AM UTC-7, Paulo Ricardo Canedo wrote:unconfirmed. He was the son of Maurice Denys/Dennis and supposedly Katherine/Joan Stradling, an alleged daughter of Edward Stradling of St.Donat’s and Joan Beaufort, said to be the illegitimate daughter of Cardinal Henry Beaufort, half brother of King
A segunda-feira, 11 de outubro de 2021 à(s) 01:04:16 UTC+1, affirm...@gmail.com escreveu:
Hello, all. I am just returning to soc.gen.med after some years of absence. I am looking into the Dennis family of Olveston, Gloucestershire and Dyrham. For some time, the maternity of Walter Dennis of Olveston, Gloucs. who died in 1505 has been
order to achieve a royal descent for Katherine Stradling). In addition, there is no firm evidence that Katherine Stradling was a legitimate daughter of her father.Actually the lengthy 2004 thread on the subject of Jane Beaufort and Katherine Stradling indicates that there is evidence that Sir Edward Stradling, husband of Jane Beaufort, DID have illegitimate children (although some may challenge that point, inSteve RigganThere is no doubt Joan was the Cardinal's daughter. I also see no reason to doubt Katherine's maternity as there is no evidence Edward Stradling had illegtimate children as Walter Dennis was of status to marry legítimate daughter of his.
I don't propose to re-hash the 2004 thread, as I think the matter was thoroughly discussed there. My judgment is that the maternity of Katherine Stradling cannot be firmly determined (as to whether she was legitimate or illegitimate).
BTW the thread in question is titled "Katherine Deighton's New Royal Ancestry". Needless to say, Katherine Deighton would not have this particular royal ancestry if Katherine Stradling was illegitimate.
A quinta-feira, 14 de outubro de 2021 à(s) 18:07:37 UTC+1, jhigg...@yahoo.com escreveu:unconfirmed. He was the son of Maurice Denys/Dennis and supposedly Katherine/Joan Stradling, an alleged daughter of Edward Stradling of St.Donat’s and Joan Beaufort, said to be the illegitimate daughter of Cardinal Henry Beaufort, half brother of King
On Monday, October 11, 2021 at 4:29:49 AM UTC-7, Paulo Ricardo Canedo wrote:
A segunda-feira, 11 de outubro de 2021 à(s) 01:04:16 UTC+1, affirm...@gmail.com escreveu:
Hello, all. I am just returning to soc.gen.med after some years of absence. I am looking into the Dennis family of Olveston, Gloucestershire and Dyrham. For some time, the maternity of Walter Dennis of Olveston, Gloucs. who died in 1505 has been
order to achieve a royal descent for Katherine Stradling). In addition, there is no firm evidence that Katherine Stradling was a legitimate daughter of her father.Actually the lengthy 2004 thread on the subject of Jane Beaufort and Katherine Stradling indicates that there is evidence that Sir Edward Stradling, husband of Jane Beaufort, DID have illegitimate children (although some may challenge that point, inSteve RigganThere is no doubt Joan was the Cardinal's daughter. I also see no reason to doubt Katherine's maternity as there is no evidence Edward Stradling had illegtimate children as Walter Dennis was of status to marry legítimate daughter of his.
I don't propose to re-hash the 2004 thread, as I think the matter was thoroughly discussed there. My judgment is that the maternity of Katherine Stradling cannot be firmly determined (as to whether she was legitimate or illegitimate).
BTW the thread in question is titled "Katherine Deighton's New Royal Ancestry". Needless to say, Katherine Deighton would not have this particular royal ancestry if Katherine Stradling was illegitimate.It's known that a Sir Edward Stradling had illegitimate children but it may have been the greatgrandson of this one. In addition, Maurice Denis was of status to marry a legitimate daughter of Sir Edward Stradling. He had a large inheritance.
On Thursday, October 14, 2021 at 4:03:05 PM UTC-7, Paulo Ricardo Canedo wrote:been unconfirmed. He was the son of Maurice Denys/Dennis and supposedly Katherine/Joan Stradling, an alleged daughter of Edward Stradling of St.Donat’s and Joan Beaufort, said to be the illegitimate daughter of Cardinal Henry Beaufort, half brother of
A quinta-feira, 14 de outubro de 2021 à(s) 18:07:37 UTC+1, jhigg...@yahoo.com escreveu:
On Monday, October 11, 2021 at 4:29:49 AM UTC-7, Paulo Ricardo Canedo wrote:
A segunda-feira, 11 de outubro de 2021 à(s) 01:04:16 UTC+1, affirm...@gmail.com escreveu:
Hello, all. I am just returning to soc.gen.med after some years of absence. I am looking into the Dennis family of Olveston, Gloucestershire and Dyrham. For some time, the maternity of Walter Dennis of Olveston, Gloucs. who died in 1505 has
in order to achieve a royal descent for Katherine Stradling). In addition, there is no firm evidence that Katherine Stradling was a legitimate daughter of her father.Actually the lengthy 2004 thread on the subject of Jane Beaufort and Katherine Stradling indicates that there is evidence that Sir Edward Stradling, husband of Jane Beaufort, DID have illegitimate children (although some may challenge that point,Steve RigganThere is no doubt Joan was the Cardinal's daughter. I also see no reason to doubt Katherine's maternity as there is no evidence Edward Stradling had illegtimate children as Walter Dennis was of status to marry legítimate daughter of his.
say, as you did in your earlier post, that "there is no evidence Edward Stradling had illegitimate children".I don't propose to re-hash the 2004 thread, as I think the matter was thoroughly discussed there. My judgment is that the maternity of Katherine Stradling cannot be firmly determined (as to whether she was legitimate or illegitimate).
Actually Sir Edward Stradling who married Jane Beaufort DID have illegitimate children - and so did his great-grandson, another Sir Edward Stradling (which is irrelevant). In fact the same source lists illegitimate children for both men. So you cannotBTW the thread in question is titled "Katherine Deighton's New Royal Ancestry". Needless to say, Katherine Deighton would not have this particular royal ancestry if Katherine Stradling was illegitimate.It's known that a Sir Edward Stradling had illegitimate children but it may have been the greatgrandson of this one. In addition, Maurice Denis was of status to marry a legitimate daughter of Sir Edward Stradling. He had a large inheritance.
The point is that the maternity of Katherine Stradling is unknown. She is not mentioned in Clark's work as either a legitimate or illegitimate daughter of Sir Edward Stradling. And, based on the 2004 discussion, no other source indicates her maternity.So there is no basis for claiming that she is legitimate - or illegitimate.
A sexta-feira, 15 de outubro de 2021 à(s) 00:26:38 UTC+1, jhigg...@yahoo.com escreveu:been unconfirmed. He was the son of Maurice Denys/Dennis and supposedly Katherine/Joan Stradling, an alleged daughter of Edward Stradling of St.Donat’s and Joan Beaufort, said to be the illegitimate daughter of Cardinal Henry Beaufort, half brother of
On Thursday, October 14, 2021 at 4:03:05 PM UTC-7, Paulo Ricardo Canedo wrote:
A quinta-feira, 14 de outubro de 2021 à(s) 18:07:37 UTC+1, jhigg...@yahoo.com escreveu:
On Monday, October 11, 2021 at 4:29:49 AM UTC-7, Paulo Ricardo Canedo wrote:
A segunda-feira, 11 de outubro de 2021 à(s) 01:04:16 UTC+1, affirm...@gmail.com escreveu:
Hello, all. I am just returning to soc.gen.med after some years of absence. I am looking into the Dennis family of Olveston, Gloucestershire and Dyrham. For some time, the maternity of Walter Dennis of Olveston, Gloucs. who died in 1505 has
in order to achieve a royal descent for Katherine Stradling). In addition, there is no firm evidence that Katherine Stradling was a legitimate daughter of her father.Actually the lengthy 2004 thread on the subject of Jane Beaufort and Katherine Stradling indicates that there is evidence that Sir Edward Stradling, husband of Jane Beaufort, DID have illegitimate children (although some may challenge that point,Steve RigganThere is no doubt Joan was the Cardinal's daughter. I also see no reason to doubt Katherine's maternity as there is no evidence Edward Stradling had illegtimate children as Walter Dennis was of status to marry legítimate daughter of his.
cannot say, as you did in your earlier post, that "there is no evidence Edward Stradling had illegitimate children".I don't propose to re-hash the 2004 thread, as I think the matter was thoroughly discussed there. My judgment is that the maternity of Katherine Stradling cannot be firmly determined (as to whether she was legitimate or illegitimate).
Actually Sir Edward Stradling who married Jane Beaufort DID have illegitimate children - and so did his great-grandson, another Sir Edward Stradling (which is irrelevant). In fact the same source lists illegitimate children for both men. So youBTW the thread in question is titled "Katherine Deighton's New Royal Ancestry". Needless to say, Katherine Deighton would not have this particular royal ancestry if Katherine Stradling was illegitimate.It's known that a Sir Edward Stradling had illegitimate children but it may have been the greatgrandson of this one. In addition, Maurice Denis was of status to marry a legitimate daughter of Sir Edward Stradling. He had a large inheritance.
maternity. So there is no basis for claiming that she is legitimate - or illegitimate.The point is that the maternity of Katherine Stradling is unknown. She is not mentioned in Clark's work as either a legitimate or illegitimate daughter of Sir Edward Stradling. And, based on the 2004 discussion, no other source indicates her
It has been a long while since I read the threads on this subject, but, as I recall, a source said a Sir Edward Stradling had illegitimate children but it's not clear which one was meant.The source in question is George T. Clarke, Limbus Patrum Morganiae et Galmorganiae. I have a copy of that work, and I can confirm that it says that BOTH the elder Sir Edward Stradling and his great-grandson Sir Edward Stradling the younger had
On Thursday, October 14, 2021 at 5:28:58 PM UTC-7, Paulo Ricardo Canedo wrote:been unconfirmed. He was the son of Maurice Denys/Dennis and supposedly Katherine/Joan Stradling, an alleged daughter of Edward Stradling of St.Donat’s and Joan Beaufort, said to be the illegitimate daughter of Cardinal Henry Beaufort, half brother of
A sexta-feira, 15 de outubro de 2021 à(s) 00:26:38 UTC+1, jhigg...@yahoo.com escreveu:
On Thursday, October 14, 2021 at 4:03:05 PM UTC-7, Paulo Ricardo Canedo wrote:
A quinta-feira, 14 de outubro de 2021 à(s) 18:07:37 UTC+1, jhigg...@yahoo.com escreveu:
On Monday, October 11, 2021 at 4:29:49 AM UTC-7, Paulo Ricardo Canedo wrote:
A segunda-feira, 11 de outubro de 2021 à(s) 01:04:16 UTC+1, affirm...@gmail.com escreveu:
Hello, all. I am just returning to soc.gen.med after some years of absence. I am looking into the Dennis family of Olveston, Gloucestershire and Dyrham. For some time, the maternity of Walter Dennis of Olveston, Gloucs. who died in 1505 has
point, in order to achieve a royal descent for Katherine Stradling). In addition, there is no firm evidence that Katherine Stradling was a legitimate daughter of her father.Actually the lengthy 2004 thread on the subject of Jane Beaufort and Katherine Stradling indicates that there is evidence that Sir Edward Stradling, husband of Jane Beaufort, DID have illegitimate children (although some may challenge thatSteve RigganThere is no doubt Joan was the Cardinal's daughter. I also see no reason to doubt Katherine's maternity as there is no evidence Edward Stradling had illegtimate children as Walter Dennis was of status to marry legítimate daughter of his.
cannot say, as you did in your earlier post, that "there is no evidence Edward Stradling had illegitimate children".I don't propose to re-hash the 2004 thread, as I think the matter was thoroughly discussed there. My judgment is that the maternity of Katherine Stradling cannot be firmly determined (as to whether she was legitimate or illegitimate).
Actually Sir Edward Stradling who married Jane Beaufort DID have illegitimate children - and so did his great-grandson, another Sir Edward Stradling (which is irrelevant). In fact the same source lists illegitimate children for both men. So youBTW the thread in question is titled "Katherine Deighton's New Royal Ancestry". Needless to say, Katherine Deighton would not have this particular royal ancestry if Katherine Stradling was illegitimate.It's known that a Sir Edward Stradling had illegitimate children but it may have been the greatgrandson of this one. In addition, Maurice Denis was of status to marry a legitimate daughter of Sir Edward Stradling. He had a large inheritance.
maternity. So there is no basis for claiming that she is legitimate - or illegitimate.The point is that the maternity of Katherine Stradling is unknown. She is not mentioned in Clark's work as either a legitimate or illegitimate daughter of Sir Edward Stradling. And, based on the 2004 discussion, no other source indicates her
illegitimate children.It has been a long while since I read the threads on this subject, but, as I recall, a source said a Sir Edward Stradling had illegitimate children but it's not clear which one was meant.The source in question is George T. Clarke, Limbus Patrum Morganiae et Galmorganiae. I have a copy of that work, and I can confirm that it says that BOTH the elder Sir Edward Stradling and his great-grandson Sir Edward Stradling the younger had
I think the argument was that, if Clark showed no legitimate children for the elder Sir Edward Stradling, then Katherine must have been legitimate (a pretty weak argument, actually). But since Clark DOES list both legitimate and illegitimate childrenfor Sir Edward Stradling and does NOT include Katherine in either group, there is no way to determine - from that source - whether Katherine was legitimate or illegitimate. And the 2004 discussion did not provide any other source indicating her maternity.
So...do you still feel, as you stated at the beginning of this current thread, that there "is no reason to doubt Katherine's maternity" i.e., that she was the daughter of Joan Beaufort as claimed by Douglas Richardson back in 2004? If so, what is nowyour reason for continuing to support that claim?
On Thursday, October 14, 2021 at 5:28:58 PM UTC-7, Paulo Ricardo Canedo wrote:been unconfirmed. He was the son of Maurice Denys/Dennis and supposedly Katherine/Joan Stradling, an alleged daughter of Edward Stradling of St.Donat’s and Joan Beaufort, said to be the illegitimate daughter of Cardinal Henry Beaufort, half brother of
A sexta-feira, 15 de outubro de 2021 à(s) 00:26:38 UTC+1, jhigg...@yahoo.com escreveu:
On Thursday, October 14, 2021 at 4:03:05 PM UTC-7, Paulo Ricardo Canedo wrote:
A quinta-feira, 14 de outubro de 2021 à(s) 18:07:37 UTC+1, jhigg...@yahoo.com escreveu:
On Monday, October 11, 2021 at 4:29:49 AM UTC-7, Paulo Ricardo Canedo wrote:
A segunda-feira, 11 de outubro de 2021 à(s) 01:04:16 UTC+1, affirm...@gmail.com escreveu:
Hello, all. I am just returning to soc.gen.med after some years of absence. I am looking into the Dennis family of Olveston, Gloucestershire and Dyrham. For some time, the maternity of Walter Dennis of Olveston, Gloucs. who died in 1505 has
point, in order to achieve a royal descent for Katherine Stradling). In addition, there is no firm evidence that Katherine Stradling was a legitimate daughter of her father.Actually the lengthy 2004 thread on the subject of Jane Beaufort and Katherine Stradling indicates that there is evidence that Sir Edward Stradling, husband of Jane Beaufort, DID have illegitimate children (although some may challenge thatSteve RigganThere is no doubt Joan was the Cardinal's daughter. I also see no reason to doubt Katherine's maternity as there is no evidence Edward Stradling had illegtimate children as Walter Dennis was of status to marry legítimate daughter of his.
cannot say, as you did in your earlier post, that "there is no evidence Edward Stradling had illegitimate children".I don't propose to re-hash the 2004 thread, as I think the matter was thoroughly discussed there. My judgment is that the maternity of Katherine Stradling cannot be firmly determined (as to whether she was legitimate or illegitimate).
Actually Sir Edward Stradling who married Jane Beaufort DID have illegitimate children - and so did his great-grandson, another Sir Edward Stradling (which is irrelevant). In fact the same source lists illegitimate children for both men. So youBTW the thread in question is titled "Katherine Deighton's New Royal Ancestry". Needless to say, Katherine Deighton would not have this particular royal ancestry if Katherine Stradling was illegitimate.It's known that a Sir Edward Stradling had illegitimate children but it may have been the greatgrandson of this one. In addition, Maurice Denis was of status to marry a legitimate daughter of Sir Edward Stradling. He had a large inheritance.
maternity. So there is no basis for claiming that she is legitimate - or illegitimate.The point is that the maternity of Katherine Stradling is unknown. She is not mentioned in Clark's work as either a legitimate or illegitimate daughter of Sir Edward Stradling. And, based on the 2004 discussion, no other source indicates her
illegitimate children.It has been a long while since I read the threads on this subject, but, as I recall, a source said a Sir Edward Stradling had illegitimate children but it's not clear which one was meant.The source in question is George T. Clarke, Limbus Patrum Morganiae et Galmorganiae. I have a copy of that work, and I can confirm that it says that BOTH the elder Sir Edward Stradling and his great-grandson Sir Edward Stradling the younger had
I think the argument was that, if Clark showed no legitimate children for the elder Sir Edward Stradling, then Katherine must have been legitimate (a pretty weak argument, actually). But since Clark DOES list both legitimate and illegitimate childrenfor Sir Edward Stradling and does NOT include Katherine in either group, there is no way to determine - from that source - whether Katherine was legitimate or illegitimate. And the 2004 discussion did not provide any other source indicating her maternity.
So...do you still feel, as you stated at the beginning of this current thread, that there "is no reason to doubt Katherine's maternity" i.e., that she was the daughter of Joan Beaufort as claimed by Douglas Richardson back in 2004? If so, what is nowyour reason for continuing to support that claim?
A sexta-feira, 15 de outubro de 2021 à(s) 03:48:06 UTC+1, jhigg...@yahoo.com escreveu:has been unconfirmed. He was the son of Maurice Denys/Dennis and supposedly Katherine/Joan Stradling, an alleged daughter of Edward Stradling of St.Donat’s and Joan Beaufort, said to be the illegitimate daughter of Cardinal Henry Beaufort, half brother
On Thursday, October 14, 2021 at 5:28:58 PM UTC-7, Paulo Ricardo Canedo wrote:
A sexta-feira, 15 de outubro de 2021 à(s) 00:26:38 UTC+1, jhigg...@yahoo.com escreveu:
On Thursday, October 14, 2021 at 4:03:05 PM UTC-7, Paulo Ricardo Canedo wrote:
A quinta-feira, 14 de outubro de 2021 à(s) 18:07:37 UTC+1, jhigg...@yahoo.com escreveu:
On Monday, October 11, 2021 at 4:29:49 AM UTC-7, Paulo Ricardo Canedo wrote:
A segunda-feira, 11 de outubro de 2021 à(s) 01:04:16 UTC+1, affirm...@gmail.com escreveu:
Hello, all. I am just returning to soc.gen.med after some years of absence. I am looking into the Dennis family of Olveston, Gloucestershire and Dyrham. For some time, the maternity of Walter Dennis of Olveston, Gloucs. who died in 1505
point, in order to achieve a royal descent for Katherine Stradling). In addition, there is no firm evidence that Katherine Stradling was a legitimate daughter of her father.Actually the lengthy 2004 thread on the subject of Jane Beaufort and Katherine Stradling indicates that there is evidence that Sir Edward Stradling, husband of Jane Beaufort, DID have illegitimate children (although some may challenge thatSteve RigganThere is no doubt Joan was the Cardinal's daughter. I also see no reason to doubt Katherine's maternity as there is no evidence Edward Stradling had illegtimate children as Walter Dennis was of status to marry legítimate daughter of his.
cannot say, as you did in your earlier post, that "there is no evidence Edward Stradling had illegitimate children".I don't propose to re-hash the 2004 thread, as I think the matter was thoroughly discussed there. My judgment is that the maternity of Katherine Stradling cannot be firmly determined (as to whether she was legitimate or illegitimate).
Actually Sir Edward Stradling who married Jane Beaufort DID have illegitimate children - and so did his great-grandson, another Sir Edward Stradling (which is irrelevant). In fact the same source lists illegitimate children for both men. So youBTW the thread in question is titled "Katherine Deighton's New Royal Ancestry". Needless to say, Katherine Deighton would not have this particular royal ancestry if Katherine Stradling was illegitimate.It's known that a Sir Edward Stradling had illegitimate children but it may have been the greatgrandson of this one. In addition, Maurice Denis was of status to marry a legitimate daughter of Sir Edward Stradling. He had a large inheritance.
maternity. So there is no basis for claiming that she is legitimate - or illegitimate.The point is that the maternity of Katherine Stradling is unknown. She is not mentioned in Clark's work as either a legitimate or illegitimate daughter of Sir Edward Stradling. And, based on the 2004 discussion, no other source indicates her
illegitimate children.It has been a long while since I read the threads on this subject, but, as I recall, a source said a Sir Edward Stradling had illegitimate children but it's not clear which one was meant.The source in question is George T. Clarke, Limbus Patrum Morganiae et Galmorganiae. I have a copy of that work, and I can confirm that it says that BOTH the elder Sir Edward Stradling and his great-grandson Sir Edward Stradling the younger had
for Sir Edward Stradling and does NOT include Katherine in either group, there is no way to determine - from that source - whether Katherine was legitimate or illegitimate. And the 2004 discussion did not provide any other source indicating her maternity.I think the argument was that, if Clark showed no legitimate children for the elder Sir Edward Stradling, then Katherine must have been legitimate (a pretty weak argument, actually). But since Clark DOES list both legitimate and illegitimate children
your reason for continuing to support that claim?So...do you still feel, as you stated at the beginning of this current thread, that there "is no reason to doubt Katherine's maternity" i.e., that she was the daughter of Joan Beaufort as claimed by Douglas Richardson back in 2004? If so, what is now
I re-read the thread and saw your post showing that. However, you, yourself, said in this thread "some may challenge that point". Could you, please, expand on that? Also, as I said, Maurice Denis had a large inheritance and, IMO, would have beenunlikely to marry an illegitimate daughter of Sir Edward Stradling.
On Friday, October 15, 2021 at 3:25:33 AM UTC-7, Paulo Ricardo Canedo wrote:has been unconfirmed. He was the son of Maurice Denys/Dennis and supposedly Katherine/Joan Stradling, an alleged daughter of Edward Stradling of St.Donat’s and Joan Beaufort, said to be the illegitimate daughter of Cardinal Henry Beaufort, half brother
A sexta-feira, 15 de outubro de 2021 à(s) 03:48:06 UTC+1, jhigg...@yahoo.com escreveu:
On Thursday, October 14, 2021 at 5:28:58 PM UTC-7, Paulo Ricardo Canedo wrote:
A sexta-feira, 15 de outubro de 2021 à(s) 00:26:38 UTC+1, jhigg...@yahoo.com escreveu:
On Thursday, October 14, 2021 at 4:03:05 PM UTC-7, Paulo Ricardo Canedo wrote:
A quinta-feira, 14 de outubro de 2021 à(s) 18:07:37 UTC+1, jhigg...@yahoo.com escreveu:
On Monday, October 11, 2021 at 4:29:49 AM UTC-7, Paulo Ricardo Canedo wrote:
A segunda-feira, 11 de outubro de 2021 à(s) 01:04:16 UTC+1, affirm...@gmail.com escreveu:
Hello, all. I am just returning to soc.gen.med after some years of absence. I am looking into the Dennis family of Olveston, Gloucestershire and Dyrham. For some time, the maternity of Walter Dennis of Olveston, Gloucs. who died in 1505
point, in order to achieve a royal descent for Katherine Stradling). In addition, there is no firm evidence that Katherine Stradling was a legitimate daughter of her father.Actually the lengthy 2004 thread on the subject of Jane Beaufort and Katherine Stradling indicates that there is evidence that Sir Edward Stradling, husband of Jane Beaufort, DID have illegitimate children (although some may challenge thatSteve RigganThere is no doubt Joan was the Cardinal's daughter. I also see no reason to doubt Katherine's maternity as there is no evidence Edward Stradling had illegtimate children as Walter Dennis was of status to marry legítimate daughter of his.
cannot say, as you did in your earlier post, that "there is no evidence Edward Stradling had illegitimate children".I don't propose to re-hash the 2004 thread, as I think the matter was thoroughly discussed there. My judgment is that the maternity of Katherine Stradling cannot be firmly determined (as to whether she was legitimate or illegitimate).
Actually Sir Edward Stradling who married Jane Beaufort DID have illegitimate children - and so did his great-grandson, another Sir Edward Stradling (which is irrelevant). In fact the same source lists illegitimate children for both men. So youBTW the thread in question is titled "Katherine Deighton's New Royal Ancestry". Needless to say, Katherine Deighton would not have this particular royal ancestry if Katherine Stradling was illegitimate.It's known that a Sir Edward Stradling had illegitimate children but it may have been the greatgrandson of this one. In addition, Maurice Denis was of status to marry a legitimate daughter of Sir Edward Stradling. He had a large inheritance.
maternity. So there is no basis for claiming that she is legitimate - or illegitimate.The point is that the maternity of Katherine Stradling is unknown. She is not mentioned in Clark's work as either a legitimate or illegitimate daughter of Sir Edward Stradling. And, based on the 2004 discussion, no other source indicates her
illegitimate children.It has been a long while since I read the threads on this subject, but, as I recall, a source said a Sir Edward Stradling had illegitimate children but it's not clear which one was meant.The source in question is George T. Clarke, Limbus Patrum Morganiae et Galmorganiae. I have a copy of that work, and I can confirm that it says that BOTH the elder Sir Edward Stradling and his great-grandson Sir Edward Stradling the younger had
children for Sir Edward Stradling and does NOT include Katherine in either group, there is no way to determine - from that source - whether Katherine was legitimate or illegitimate. And the 2004 discussion did not provide any other source indicating herI think the argument was that, if Clark showed no legitimate children for the elder Sir Edward Stradling, then Katherine must have been legitimate (a pretty weak argument, actually). But since Clark DOES list both legitimate and illegitimate
now your reason for continuing to support that claim?So...do you still feel, as you stated at the beginning of this current thread, that there "is no reason to doubt Katherine's maternity" i.e., that she was the daughter of Joan Beaufort as claimed by Douglas Richardson back in 2004? If so, what is
unlikely to marry an illegitimate daughter of Sir Edward Stradling.I re-read the thread and saw your post showing that. However, you, yourself, said in this thread "some may challenge that point". Could you, please, expand on that? Also, as I said, Maurice Denis had a large inheritance and, IMO, would have been
My remark, which you partially quoted, was "some may challenge that point, in order to achieve a royal descent for Katherine Stradling". " I was trying to be subtle - apparently too much so for you. :-) You should be able to figure out what (or, morespecifically, who) I was referring to. :-)
I said in my first post in this current thread that "I don't propose to re-hash the 2004 thread, as I think the matter was thoroughly discussed there". I'm going to stick to that statement now, as I don't think there is anything to be gained by furtherdiscussion. It's all just speculation on an issue which cannot be firmly decided. In the absence of actual evidence beyond what has already been discussed at length, I'll leave it to others to discuss the question. IMO there still is no definitive answer
On Friday, October 15, 2021 at 12:32:04 PM UTC-4, jhigg...@yahoo.com wrote:1505 has been unconfirmed. He was the son of Maurice Denys/Dennis and supposedly Katherine/Joan Stradling, an alleged daughter of Edward Stradling of St.Donat’s and Joan Beaufort, said to be the illegitimate daughter of Cardinal Henry Beaufort, half
On Friday, October 15, 2021 at 3:25:33 AM UTC-7, Paulo Ricardo Canedo wrote:
A sexta-feira, 15 de outubro de 2021 à(s) 03:48:06 UTC+1, jhigg...@yahoo.com escreveu:
On Thursday, October 14, 2021 at 5:28:58 PM UTC-7, Paulo Ricardo Canedo wrote:
A sexta-feira, 15 de outubro de 2021 à(s) 00:26:38 UTC+1, jhigg...@yahoo.com escreveu:
On Thursday, October 14, 2021 at 4:03:05 PM UTC-7, Paulo Ricardo Canedo wrote:
A quinta-feira, 14 de outubro de 2021 à(s) 18:07:37 UTC+1, jhigg...@yahoo.com escreveu:
On Monday, October 11, 2021 at 4:29:49 AM UTC-7, Paulo Ricardo Canedo wrote:
A segunda-feira, 11 de outubro de 2021 à(s) 01:04:16 UTC+1, affirm...@gmail.com escreveu:
Hello, all. I am just returning to soc.gen.med after some years of absence. I am looking into the Dennis family of Olveston, Gloucestershire and Dyrham. For some time, the maternity of Walter Dennis of Olveston, Gloucs. who died in
his.Steve RigganThere is no doubt Joan was the Cardinal's daughter. I also see no reason to doubt Katherine's maternity as there is no evidence Edward Stradling had illegtimate children as Walter Dennis was of status to marry legítimate daughter of
that point, in order to achieve a royal descent for Katherine Stradling). In addition, there is no firm evidence that Katherine Stradling was a legitimate daughter of her father.Actually the lengthy 2004 thread on the subject of Jane Beaufort and Katherine Stradling indicates that there is evidence that Sir Edward Stradling, husband of Jane Beaufort, DID have illegitimate children (although some may challenge
I don't propose to re-hash the 2004 thread, as I think the matter was thoroughly discussed there. My judgment is that the maternity of Katherine Stradling cannot be firmly determined (as to whether she was legitimate or illegitimate).
BTW the thread in question is titled "Katherine Deighton's New Royal Ancestry". Needless to say, Katherine Deighton would not have this particular royal ancestry if Katherine Stradling was illegitimate.It's known that a Sir Edward Stradling had illegitimate children but it may have been the greatgrandson of this one. In addition, Maurice Denis was of status to marry a legitimate daughter of Sir Edward Stradling. He had a large inheritance.
you cannot say, as you did in your earlier post, that "there is no evidence Edward Stradling had illegitimate children".Actually Sir Edward Stradling who married Jane Beaufort DID have illegitimate children - and so did his great-grandson, another Sir Edward Stradling (which is irrelevant). In fact the same source lists illegitimate children for both men. So
maternity. So there is no basis for claiming that she is legitimate - or illegitimate.The point is that the maternity of Katherine Stradling is unknown. She is not mentioned in Clark's work as either a legitimate or illegitimate daughter of Sir Edward Stradling. And, based on the 2004 discussion, no other source indicates her
illegitimate children.It has been a long while since I read the threads on this subject, but, as I recall, a source said a Sir Edward Stradling had illegitimate children but it's not clear which one was meant.The source in question is George T. Clarke, Limbus Patrum Morganiae et Galmorganiae. I have a copy of that work, and I can confirm that it says that BOTH the elder Sir Edward Stradling and his great-grandson Sir Edward Stradling the younger had
children for Sir Edward Stradling and does NOT include Katherine in either group, there is no way to determine - from that source - whether Katherine was legitimate or illegitimate. And the 2004 discussion did not provide any other source indicating herI think the argument was that, if Clark showed no legitimate children for the elder Sir Edward Stradling, then Katherine must have been legitimate (a pretty weak argument, actually). But since Clark DOES list both legitimate and illegitimate
now your reason for continuing to support that claim?So...do you still feel, as you stated at the beginning of this current thread, that there "is no reason to doubt Katherine's maternity" i.e., that she was the daughter of Joan Beaufort as claimed by Douglas Richardson back in 2004? If so, what is
unlikely to marry an illegitimate daughter of Sir Edward Stradling.I re-read the thread and saw your post showing that. However, you, yourself, said in this thread "some may challenge that point". Could you, please, expand on that? Also, as I said, Maurice Denis had a large inheritance and, IMO, would have been
specifically, who) I was referring to. :-)My remark, which you partially quoted, was "some may challenge that point, in order to achieve a royal descent for Katherine Stradling". " I was trying to be subtle - apparently too much so for you. :-) You should be able to figure out what (or, more
further discussion. It's all just speculation on an issue which cannot be firmly decided. In the absence of actual evidence beyond what has already been discussed at length, I'll leave it to others to discuss the question. IMO there still is noI said in my first post in this current thread that "I don't propose to re-hash the 2004 thread, as I think the matter was thoroughly discussed there". I'm going to stick to that statement now, as I don't think there is anything to be gained by
Katherine Deighton has a descent from Edward I, at least if the sources cited on Genealogics are to be believed--Katherine Stradling's grandson Sir William Dennis married Anne Berkeley, who has a descent that runs Berkeley-Mowbray-FitzAlan-Bohun.
On Friday, October 15, 2021 at 11:07:02 AM UTC-7, ravinma...@yahoo.com wrote:further discussion. It's all just speculation on an issue which cannot be firmly decided. In the absence of actual evidence beyond what has already been discussed at length, I'll leave it to others to discuss the question. IMO there still is no
On Friday, October 15, 2021 at 1:22:34 PM UTC-4, Elizabeth A wrote:
On Friday, October 15, 2021 at 12:32:04 PM UTC-4, jhigg...@yahoo.com wrote:
I said in my first post in this current thread that "I don't propose to re-hash the 2004 thread, as I think the matter was thoroughly discussed there". I'm going to stick to that statement now, as I don't think there is anything to be gained by
Edward III descent. I should have been more careful in my wording regarding Katherine Deighton's "royal" descents. It was specifically the Edward III descent that was the issue in the 2004 thread - and in this thread.Elizabeth and John are correct. There are other Edward I descents for Katherine Deighton besides the disputed Stradling descent - 5 by my count. And, if my data is correct, the disputed Stradling descent is the only one that gives Katherine Deighton anKatherine Deighton has a descent from Edward I, at least if the sources cited on Genealogics are to be believed--Katherine Stradling's grandson Sir William Dennis married Anne Berkeley, who has a descent that runs Berkeley-Mowbray-FitzAlan-Bohun.Right, there is at least one Edward I descent which does not depend upon Stradling's status. I can't exactly remember, but there may not be another Edward III descent if Stradling lacks the Beaufort connection.
On Friday, October 15, 2021 at 1:22:34 PM UTC-4, Elizabeth A wrote:further discussion. It's all just speculation on an issue which cannot be firmly decided. In the absence of actual evidence beyond what has already been discussed at length, I'll leave it to others to discuss the question. IMO there still is no
On Friday, October 15, 2021 at 12:32:04 PM UTC-4, jhigg...@yahoo.com wrote:
I said in my first post in this current thread that "I don't propose to re-hash the 2004 thread, as I think the matter was thoroughly discussed there". I'm going to stick to that statement now, as I don't think there is anything to be gained by
Katherine Deighton has a descent from Edward I, at least if the sources cited on Genealogics are to be believed--Katherine Stradling's grandson Sir William Dennis married Anne Berkeley, who has a descent that runs Berkeley-Mowbray-FitzAlan-Bohun.Right, there is at least one Edward I descent which does not depend upon Stradling's status. I can't exactly remember, but there may not be another Edward III descent if Stradling lacks the Beaufort connection.
What evidence.
The Close Roll of 1479 states that her name was "Katherine daughter of Sir Edward Stradling"
https://books.google.com/books?id=bDlKAAAAYAAJ&lpg=PA62&ots=_RBv5-gGBG&pg=PA62
Close Roll AD 1479 states "That John Kemys survived both his wife Margaret and her son Maurice Denys This Maurice married Katherine daughter of Sir Edward Stradling Knight of St Donat Castle Glamorgan "
Note that *this author* (not me) has enqouted the entire sentence. I suppose it is possible that they only mean to enquote a smaller portion, but this is my source for what I said.
Will, thank you for posting that link and Brad, thank you for the update! That's too bad that there was no matching record in the 1479 Close Roll. Also, Steve, thanks for sharing the information about the Berkley lines to Edward I - I only explored onepreviously.
I noticed that in some of the earlier discussions there were references to the images of the 1530 Dennis pedigree - would someone be able to share a copy of it (in high resolution, if possible)? I'd love to have a copy for my records and would becurious to take a closer look at some of the coat of arms in it. Many thanks!
On Saturday, October 16, 2021 at 8:11:39 PM UTC-4, FemmeFenrir wrote:one previously.
Will, thank you for posting that link and Brad, thank you for the update! That's too bad that there was no matching record in the 1479 Close Roll. Also, Steve, thanks for sharing the information about the Berkley lines to Edward I - I only explored
curious to take a closer look at some of the coat of arms in it. Many thanks!I noticed that in some of the earlier discussions there were references to the images of the 1530 Dennis pedigree - would someone be able to share a copy of it (in high resolution, if possible)? I'd love to have a copy for my records and would be
Thank you Will and Brad, as well as all the others who contributed to the discussion.a422-f55d267e97ce/Thomas-d1480-and-Elizabeth-d1533-Stradlinge/?field0=string&value0=stradling&field1=with_images&value1=1&index=3), although there was a somewhat similar Stradling arms variation: paly of six, on a chevron three cinquefoil (https://
Here is the link to the photos of the 1520 Dennis pedigree from The Family History Book by Stella Colwell (pg.15) and The Herald's Commemorative Exhibition 1484-1934 (plate XLIV).
https://drive.google.com/drive/folders/1LsZxKcS7r92l70RP89-s0kH3l1i18dh3
Maurice Denys' first wife is named as Johanna Stradlyng; however her coat of arms, a chevron between three roses, does not appear on the coat of arms of Sir Edward Stradling's grandson (https://museum.wales/collections/online/object/95669d86-7fe8-3762-
Any insight on identifying these arms (chevron between three roses) would be welcome.the possible maternity of Sir Walter. However, the assumption that the arms in the 4th quarter are those of his mother rests solely on the 1520 Dennis pedigree and should be confirmed by the College of Arms, along with the possibility of her being a
I also note that the arms of Sir Walter on his monumental brass contain his mother's arms (as per the pedigree) in the 4th quarter, implying that she was legitimate and a heraldic heiress (i.e. she had no brothers), which might have implications for
On Monday, October 25, 2021 at 4:37:38 AM UTC-6, Andrew Z wrote:one previously.
On Saturday, October 16, 2021 at 8:11:39 PM UTC-4, FemmeFenrir wrote:
Will, thank you for posting that link and Brad, thank you for the update! That's too bad that there was no matching record in the 1479 Close Roll. Also, Steve, thanks for sharing the information about the Berkley lines to Edward I - I only explored
curious to take a closer look at some of the coat of arms in it. Many thanks!I noticed that in some of the earlier discussions there were references to the images of the 1530 Dennis pedigree - would someone be able to share a copy of it (in high resolution, if possible)? I'd love to have a copy for my records and would be
3762-a422-f55d267e97ce/Thomas-d1480-and-Elizabeth-d1533-Stradlinge/?field0=string&value0=stradling&field1=with_images&value1=1&index=3), although there was a somewhat similar Stradling arms variation: paly of six, on a chevron three cinquefoil (https://Thank you Will and Brad, as well as all the others who contributed to the discussion.
Here is the link to the photos of the 1520 Dennis pedigree from The Family History Book by Stella Colwell (pg.15) and The Herald's Commemorative Exhibition 1484-1934 (plate XLIV).
https://drive.google.com/drive/folders/1LsZxKcS7r92l70RP89-s0kH3l1i18dh3
Maurice Denys' first wife is named as Johanna Stradlyng; however her coat of arms, a chevron between three roses, does not appear on the coat of arms of Sir Edward Stradling's grandson (https://museum.wales/collections/online/object/95669d86-7fe8-
the possible maternity of Sir Walter. However, the assumption that the arms in the 4th quarter are those of his mother rests solely on the 1520 Dennis pedigree and should be confirmed by the College of Arms, along with the possibility of her being aAny insight on identifying these arms (chevron between three roses) would be welcome.
I also note that the arms of Sir Walter on his monumental brass contain his mother's arms (as per the pedigree) in the 4th quarter, implying that she was legitimate and a heraldic heiress (i.e. she had no brothers), which might have implications for
Just for clarity, cinquefoils are in the rose family and may be confused with roses in arms (especially when quartered). I can't add to the overall discussion here, but the question should be "why are the arms differenced?" The answer might be with theorder of succession. Was Edward the grandson the oldest grandson, etc.? Was his father the oldest son? If there were older brothers in either generation (depending on when they died), it might have forced the younger to assume a permanently differenced
Kevan
Thank you all, especially Andrew Z, for this interesting information. I like mystery myself and thought that the coat of arms attached to Maurice Dennis' first wife could have been a Berkerolles coat of arms? I have seen that book, and it was hard tosee the illustration. I am no expert, either, but Gwenllian Berkerolles was the wife of Sir Edward Stradling's grandfather, another Edward Stradling (about 1319-1394?). It's possible a mistake was made and crescents should have been drawn instead of
In addition, I read Peter Bartrum's book before it was taken off line (fortunately, it is at our county library and I will read it again when I get back from vacation). In the book, I recall seeing that "Catherine" or Caterine Stradling (ca 1360- ?),Sir Edward's aunt and a daughter of Gwenllian, was the "Catherine" Stradling who married Watkin Wynston.
I understand that Maurice Dennis was Sir Edward Stradling's ward from about age 12 until he reached majority in 1431, but in my research about marriage of wards or minors in Medieval England, couldn't Maurice refuse to marry an "illegitimate" daughterof his guardian, if she was "below" his social standing and had no inheritance? I believe he had that right. Also, wasn't Maurice a ward of the Crown when his father Gilbert Dennis died in 1422, which would have retained marriage rights for Maurice?
Regards, everyone, and thank you again
Thank you all, especially Andrew Z, for this interesting information. I like mystery myself and thought that the coat of arms attached to Maurice Dennis' first wife could have been a Berkerolles coat of arms? I have seen that book, and it was hard tosee the illustration. I am no expert, either, but Gwenllian Berkerolles was the wife of Sir Edward Stradling's grandfather, another Edward Stradling (about 1319-1394?). It's possible a mistake was made and crescents should have been drawn instead of
In addition, I read Peter Bartrum's book before it was taken off line (fortunately, it is at our county library and I will read it again when I get back from vacation). In the book, I recall seeing that "Catherine" or Caterine Stradling (ca 1360- ?),Sir Edward's aunt and a daughter of Gwenllian, was the "Catherine" Stradling who married Watkin Wynston.
I understand that Maurice Dennis was Sir Edward Stradling's ward from about age 12 until he reached majority in 1431, but in my research about marriage of wards or minors in Medieval England, couldn't Maurice refuse to marry an "illegitimate" daughterof his guardian, if she was "below" his social standing and had no inheritance? I believe he had that right. Also, wasn't Maurice a ward of the Crown when his father Gilbert Dennis died in 1422, which would have retained marriage rights for Maurice?
Regards, everyone, and thank you again
Andew Zfrom his book. Go to Genealogies 1400-1500 (bottom of the page) and look for "Stradling". It's under Stradling1. Bartrum wrote that "11 Catrin Stradling" = Watkin ap John Wynston 1 (11 meaning 11th generation, and 1 meaning, he's under Wynston, page 1).
I found the Peter Bartrum's genealogy on the Stradlings and Wynstons in Geni.com. You can register for geni.com for free, then look for "Peter Bartrum Welsh Genealogy geni" on your search engine, or look on geni.com. There will be a long list of topics
I didn't have to go to our county library after all, although his books are there.
Interestingly, if one goes to our Sir Edward's great-grandson, Sir Edward- he had 22 children with 4 women. One was his Wife, and 3 were mistresses, whose names are recorded. So Cardinal Beaufort probably has a tremendous number of descendants.
I also note that the arms of Sir Walter on his monumental brass contain his mother's arms (as per the pedigree) in the 4th quarter, implying that she was legitimate and a heraldic heiress (i.e. she had no brothers), which might have implications forthe possible maternity of Sir Walter.
Also, through the Memorials of the Danvers Family book, we can identify most of the inherited arms that are found in the coat of arms of Sir Thomas Stradling.
1. Stradling 2. Hawey 3. Strongbow 4. Gernon or Garnon 5. Not identified 6. Justyn 7. Turberville 8. Berkerolles
In the Memorials of the Danvers Family, it says "Amongst the Glamorganshire deeds is one dated 1452 (Clark, vol. ii., p. 169), a grant of land in Coyty by Edmund Stradling; a note to the deed states that Edmund was son of Sir Edmund, of Winter bourneDauntesey, son of Sir John Stradling and Joan Dauntesey. The seal attached to the deed quarters 1 and 4 paly of six, a chevron (Stradling), 2 and 3, three bars undy for Dauntesey...The Stradlings seem to have used two coats — the above, but more
Any insight on identifying these arms (chevron between three roses) would be welcome.
I also note that the arms of Sir Walter on his monumental brass contain his mother's arms (as per the pedigree) in the 4th quarter
On Monday, October 25, 2021 at 6:37:38 AM UTC-4, Andrew Z wrote:this heading, but are identified as Russell.
Any insight on identifying these arms (chevron between three roses) would be welcome.
I also note that the arms of Sir Walter on his monumental brass contain his mother's arms (as per the pedigree) in the 4th quarterDear group,
I previously searched (without any success) the Dictionary of British Arms for Stradling arms variations; I recently looked up in the same book a chevron between three roses and those arms from the Olveston Denys monumental brass are included under
Pg. 342 https://library.oapen.org/viewer/web/viewer.html?file=/bitstream/handle/20.500.12657/31215/634734.pdf?sequence=1&isAllowed=yArms and edited by heralds.
Russell holders of these arms are found on pg. 343, with the source for the arms of Thomas Russell being Thomas Jenyns's Book, 1410, transcr. O.Barron, [incorporates Jenyns's Ordinary & Jenyns's Roll, collated with BL Add MS 40851] (pg. xxxix)
The source for the information about the Olveston monumental brass is cited as: https://archive.org/details/b29828302/page/154/mode/1up, which in turn cites this book: https://archive.org/details/brassesofglouces00davi/page/106/mode/1up
Neither of these books identify the arms as Russell, so I am not sure how the statement on pg. 342 could be corroborated, but I would imagine it to be credible since the Dictionary of British Arms was prepared on the basis of cards from the College of
When I first started looking into the Sir Walter Dennis' mother parentage, I carefully read the previous discussions about its uncertainty and lack of contemporary evidence, but still considered it possible, especially since it seemed to me that themain source attributing illegitimate children to Sir Edward Stradling (husband of Jane Beaufort) was G.T. Clark, whose work I found to be unreliable on this topic. However, after reviewing the heraldic evidence found in the Dennis pedigree, I don't
All the best!
Andrew
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