https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-13361885/Two-Finnish-passenger-jets-forced-turn-Russia-GPS-jamming-Baltic-nations-warn-M
oscows-hostile-actions-risking-air-disaster.html
Two Finnish passenger jets are forced to turn around mid-journey
due to Russian GPS jamming as Baltic nations warn Moscow's
'hostile' actions are risking an air disaster
Finnair flights to Tartu in Estonia were forced to return
to Helsinki late last week
. . .
This is extremely dangerous, esp for air traffic.
BUT ... Ukraine drones have been using GPS to
target Russian assets.
Yes, there are military systems - but they're not
gonna put that in civvie transports OR give it
to Ukraine. However Ukraine can still use civvie
radio beacons for crude targeting and then switch
to video for the final run.
In the meanwhile, DO reconsider air travel across
areas with high obstacles anywhere near the Russian
border.
On the broad note, it was ridiculous shifting almost
all navigation tech - for buzzy little planes up to
airliners, buzzy little boats up to supertankers and
mega-freighters - to ONE kind of system. GPS is a
very weak signal and CAN be jammed ... or worse,
overridden with a false signal. Russia and China
can make GPS go away any time they want.
On a sunny day (Mon, 29 Apr 2024 21:05:50 -0400) it happened "68hx.1806" <68hx.1805@g5t8x.net> wrote in <dkadneVy6Zdy3q37nZ2dnZfqnPWdnZ2d@earthlink.com>:
https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-13361885/Two-Finnish-passenger-jets-forced-turn-Russia-GPS-jamming-Baltic-nations-warn-M
oscows-hostile-actions-risking-air-disaster.html
Two Finnish passenger jets are forced to turn around mid-journey
due to Russian GPS jamming as Baltic nations warn Moscow's
'hostile' actions are risking an air disaster
Finnair flights to Tartu in Estonia were forced to return
to Helsinki late last week
. . .
This is extremely dangerous, esp for air traffic.
BUT ... Ukraine drones have been using GPS to
target Russian assets.
Yes, there are military systems - but they're not
gonna put that in civvie transports OR give it
to Ukraine. However Ukraine can still use civvie
radio beacons for crude targeting and then switch
to video for the final run.
In the meanwhile, DO reconsider air travel across
areas with high obstacles anywhere near the Russian
border.
On the broad note, it was ridiculous shifting almost
all navigation tech - for buzzy little planes up to
airliners, buzzy little boats up to supertankers and
mega-freighters - to ONE kind of system. GPS is a
very weak signal and CAN be jammed ... or worse,
overridden with a false signal. Russia and China
can make GPS go away any time they want.
There are several satellite navigation systems now
From
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Satellite_navigation
As of 2023, five global systems are operational:
the United States's Global Positioning System (GPS),
Russia's Global Navigation Satellite System (GLONASS),
India's Indian Regional Navigation Satellite System (IRNSS),
China's BeiDou Navigation Satellite System (BDS),
and the European Union's Galileo.[2]
Anybody with half a brain or more and a few dollars left for ice cream would add those to their navigation system:
https://www.ebay.com/b/gps-glonass/bn_7024770410
I have some in use and some for the Chinese system too.
Just a key press to change to Glonass from GPS in the software I wrote: https://panteltje.nl/panteltje/xgpspc/index.html
My drone uses Beidou or GPS... https://panteltje.nl/panteltje/quadcopter/index.html
all kids stuff,
now those big airlines ???
LOL
I also have a sextant for at sea: https://panteltje.online/pub/davis_sextant_IMG_6556.JPG
You need an accurate watch..
Would make sense to me if you-crane was also jamming stuff.
More interesting is creating your own artificial GPS and sending them planes wherever...
I had a go, but stopped, did not want to cause havoc with all them F35 and cars around here...
Man for a few dollars you are in!
On Tue, 30 Apr 2024, Jan Panteltje wrote:
On a sunny day (Mon, 29 Apr 2024 21:05:50 -0400) it happened "68hx.1806"
<68hx.1805@g5t8x.net> wrote in
<dkadneVy6Zdy3q37nZ2dnZfqnPWdnZ2d@earthlink.com>:
https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-13361885/Two-Finnish-passenger-jets-forced-turn-Russia-GPS-jamming-Baltic-nations-warn-M
oscows-hostile-actions-risking-air-disaster.html
Two Finnish passenger jets are forced to turn around mid-journey
due to Russian GPS jamming as Baltic nations warn Moscow's
'hostile' actions are risking an air disaster
Finnair flights to Tartu in Estonia were forced to return
to Helsinki late last week
. . .
This is extremely dangerous, esp for air traffic.
BUT ... Ukraine drones have been using GPS to
target Russian assets.
Yes, there are military systems - but they're not
gonna put that in civvie transports OR give it
to Ukraine. However Ukraine can still use civvie
radio beacons for crude targeting and then switch
to video for the final run.
In the meanwhile, DO reconsider air travel across
areas with high obstacles anywhere near the Russian
border.
On the broad note, it was ridiculous shifting almost
all navigation tech - for buzzy little planes up to
airliners, buzzy little boats up to supertankers and
mega-freighters - to ONE kind of system. GPS is a
very weak signal and CAN be jammed ... or worse,
overridden with a false signal. Russia and China
can make GPS go away any time they want.
There are several satellite navigation systems now
From
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Satellite_navigation
As of 2023, five global systems are operational:
the United States's Global Positioning System (GPS),
Russia's Global Navigation Satellite System (GLONASS),
India's Indian Regional Navigation Satellite System (IRNSS),
China's BeiDou Navigation Satellite System (BDS),
and the European Union's Galileo.[2]
Anybody with half a brain or more and a few dollars left for ice cream would add those to their navigation system:
https://www.ebay.com/b/gps-glonass/bn_7024770410
I have some in use and some for the Chinese system too.
Just a key press to change to Glonass from GPS in the software I wrote:
https://panteltje.nl/panteltje/xgpspc/index.html
My drone uses Beidou or GPS...
https://panteltje.nl/panteltje/quadcopter/index.html
all kids stuff,
now those big airlines ???
LOL
I also have a sextant for at sea:
https://panteltje.online/pub/davis_sextant_IMG_6556.JPG
You need an accurate watch..
Would make sense to me if you-crane was also jamming stuff.
More interesting is creating your own artificial GPS and sending them planes wherever...
I had a go, but stopped, did not want to cause havoc with all them F35 and cars around here...
Man for a few dollars you are in!
Does this mean tha Finnair has to make a detour in the future? And are
there no ways around this? I mean 50 years ago, there were jets flying all >over the world without GPS, so wouldn't it be possible, given the fact
that we know russia will do this, to fall back on those systems?
On Tue, 30 Apr 2024, Jan Panteltje wrote:
On a sunny day (Mon, 29 Apr 2024 21:05:50 -0400) it happened "68hx.1806"
<68hx.1805@g5t8x.net> wrote in
<dkadneVy6Zdy3q37nZ2dnZfqnPWdnZ2d@earthlink.com>:
https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-13361885/Two-Finnish-passenger-jets-forced-turn-Russia-GPS-jamming-Baltic-nations-warn-M
oscows-hostile-actions-risking-air-disaster.html
Two Finnish passenger jets are forced to turn around mid-journey
due to Russian GPS jamming as Baltic nations warn Moscow's
'hostile' actions are risking an air disaster
Finnair flights to Tartu in Estonia were forced to return
to Helsinki late last week
. . .
This is extremely dangerous, esp for air traffic.
BUT ... Ukraine drones have been using GPS to
target Russian assets.
Yes, there are military systems - but they're not
gonna put that in civvie transports OR give it
to Ukraine. However Ukraine can still use civvie
radio beacons for crude targeting and then switch
to video for the final run.
In the meanwhile, DO reconsider air travel across
areas with high obstacles anywhere near the Russian
border.
On the broad note, it was ridiculous shifting almost
all navigation tech - for buzzy little planes up to
airliners, buzzy little boats up to supertankers and
mega-freighters - to ONE kind of system. GPS is a
very weak signal and CAN be jammed ... or worse,
overridden with a false signal. Russia and China
can make GPS go away any time they want.
There are several satellite navigation systems now
From
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Satellite_navigation
As of 2023, five global systems are operational:
the United States's Global Positioning System (GPS),
Russia's Global Navigation Satellite System (GLONASS),
India's Indian Regional Navigation Satellite System (IRNSS),
China's BeiDou Navigation Satellite System (BDS),
and the European Union's Galileo.[2]
Anybody with half a brain or more and a few dollars left for ice cream
would add those to their navigation system:
https://www.ebay.com/b/gps-glonass/bn_7024770410
I have some in use and some for the Chinese system too.
Just a key press to change to Glonass from GPS in the software I wrote:
https://panteltje.nl/panteltje/xgpspc/index.html
My drone uses Beidou or GPS...
https://panteltje.nl/panteltje/quadcopter/index.html
all kids stuff,
now those big airlines ???
LOL
I also have a sextant for at sea:
https://panteltje.online/pub/davis_sextant_IMG_6556.JPG
You need an accurate watch..
Would make sense to me if you-crane was also jamming stuff.
More interesting is creating your own artificial GPS and sending them
planes wherever...
I had a go, but stopped, did not want to cause havoc with all them F35
and cars around here...
Man for a few dollars you are in!
Does this mean tha Finnair has to make a detour in the future? And are
there no ways around this? I mean 50 years ago, there were jets flying
all over the world without GPS, so wouldn't it be possible, given the
fact that we know russia will do this, to fall back on those systems?
On a sunny day (Tue, 30 Apr 2024 11:46:11 +0200) it happened D <nospam@example.net> wrote in <f7936dc7-71fd-a4f1-0009-03891cff5c4b@example.net>:
On Tue, 30 Apr 2024, Jan Panteltje wrote:
On a sunny day (Mon, 29 Apr 2024 21:05:50 -0400) it happened "68hx.1806" >>> <68hx.1805@g5t8x.net> wrote in
<dkadneVy6Zdy3q37nZ2dnZfqnPWdnZ2d@earthlink.com>:
https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-13361885/Two-Finnish-passenger-jets-forced-turn-Russia-GPS-jamming-Baltic-nations-warn-M
oscows-hostile-actions-risking-air-disaster.html
Two Finnish passenger jets are forced to turn around mid-journey
due to Russian GPS jamming as Baltic nations warn Moscow's
'hostile' actions are risking an air disaster
Finnair flights to Tartu in Estonia were forced to return
to Helsinki late last week
. . .
This is extremely dangerous, esp for air traffic.
BUT ... Ukraine drones have been using GPS to
target Russian assets.
Yes, there are military systems - but they're not
gonna put that in civvie transports OR give it
to Ukraine. However Ukraine can still use civvie
radio beacons for crude targeting and then switch
to video for the final run.
In the meanwhile, DO reconsider air travel across
areas with high obstacles anywhere near the Russian
border.
On the broad note, it was ridiculous shifting almost
all navigation tech - for buzzy little planes up to
airliners, buzzy little boats up to supertankers and
mega-freighters - to ONE kind of system. GPS is a
very weak signal and CAN be jammed ... or worse,
overridden with a false signal. Russia and China
can make GPS go away any time they want.
There are several satellite navigation systems now
From
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Satellite_navigation
As of 2023, five global systems are operational:
the United States's Global Positioning System (GPS),
Russia's Global Navigation Satellite System (GLONASS),
India's Indian Regional Navigation Satellite System (IRNSS),
China's BeiDou Navigation Satellite System (BDS),
and the European Union's Galileo.[2]
Anybody with half a brain or more and a few dollars left for ice cream would add those to their navigation system:
https://www.ebay.com/b/gps-glonass/bn_7024770410
I have some in use and some for the Chinese system too.
Just a key press to change to Glonass from GPS in the software I wrote:
https://panteltje.nl/panteltje/xgpspc/index.html
My drone uses Beidou or GPS...
https://panteltje.nl/panteltje/quadcopter/index.html
all kids stuff,
now those big airlines ???
LOL
I also have a sextant for at sea:
https://panteltje.online/pub/davis_sextant_IMG_6556.JPG
You need an accurate watch..
Would make sense to me if you-crane was also jamming stuff.
More interesting is creating your own artificial GPS and sending them planes wherever...
I had a go, but stopped, did not want to cause havoc with all them F35 and cars around here...
Man for a few dollars you are in!
Does this mean tha Finnair has to make a detour in the future? And are
there no ways around this? I mean 50 years ago, there were jets flying all >> over the world without GPS, so wouldn't it be possible, given the fact
that we know russia will do this, to fall back on those systems?
There was LORAN:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/LORAN
but indeed flying high, apart from clouds,
should make it possible to see where you are going.
compass.
And there is of course inertial navigation,
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Inertial_navigation_system
I had a go with piezo sensors but that had some drift even in an oven.
There are laser gyroscopes in use:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ring_laser_gyroscopeaccurate
very accurate, if you know heading and speed then navigation is not that hard,
like finding an airport...
IIRC V2 in WW2 used gyroscopes to find London..
Radio beacons, or normal radio stations as beacon,
simple ferrite rod as antenna, turn for maximum, or minimum.
On a sunny day (Tue, 30 Apr 2024 11:46:11 +0200) it happened D <nospam@example.net> wrote in <f7936dc7-71fd-a4f1-0009-03891cff5c4b@example.net>:
On Tue, 30 Apr 2024, Jan Panteltje wrote:
On a sunny day (Mon, 29 Apr 2024 21:05:50 -0400) it happened "68hx.1806" >>> <68hx.1805@g5t8x.net> wrote in
<dkadneVy6Zdy3q37nZ2dnZfqnPWdnZ2d@earthlink.com>:
https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-13361885/Two-Finnish-passenger-jets-forced-turn-Russia-GPS-jamming-Baltic-nations-warn-M
oscows-hostile-actions-risking-air-disaster.html
Two Finnish passenger jets are forced to turn around mid-journey
due to Russian GPS jamming as Baltic nations warn Moscow's
'hostile' actions are risking an air disaster
Finnair flights to Tartu in Estonia were forced to return
to Helsinki late last week
. . .
This is extremely dangerous, esp for air traffic.
BUT ... Ukraine drones have been using GPS to
target Russian assets.
Yes, there are military systems - but they're not
gonna put that in civvie transports OR give it
to Ukraine. However Ukraine can still use civvie
radio beacons for crude targeting and then switch
to video for the final run.
In the meanwhile, DO reconsider air travel across
areas with high obstacles anywhere near the Russian
border.
On the broad note, it was ridiculous shifting almost
all navigation tech - for buzzy little planes up to
airliners, buzzy little boats up to supertankers and
mega-freighters - to ONE kind of system. GPS is a
very weak signal and CAN be jammed ... or worse,
overridden with a false signal. Russia and China
can make GPS go away any time they want.
There are several satellite navigation systems now
From
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Satellite_navigation
As of 2023, five global systems are operational:
the United States's Global Positioning System (GPS),
Russia's Global Navigation Satellite System (GLONASS),
India's Indian Regional Navigation Satellite System (IRNSS),
China's BeiDou Navigation Satellite System (BDS),
and the European Union's Galileo.[2]
Anybody with half a brain or more and a few dollars left for ice cream would add those to their navigation system:
https://www.ebay.com/b/gps-glonass/bn_7024770410
I have some in use and some for the Chinese system too.
Just a key press to change to Glonass from GPS in the software I wrote:
https://panteltje.nl/panteltje/xgpspc/index.html
My drone uses Beidou or GPS...
https://panteltje.nl/panteltje/quadcopter/index.html
all kids stuff,
now those big airlines ???
LOL
I also have a sextant for at sea:
https://panteltje.online/pub/davis_sextant_IMG_6556.JPG
You need an accurate watch..
Would make sense to me if you-crane was also jamming stuff.
More interesting is creating your own artificial GPS and sending them planes wherever...
I had a go, but stopped, did not want to cause havoc with all them F35 and cars around here...
Man for a few dollars you are in!
Does this mean tha Finnair has to make a detour in the future? And are
there no ways around this? I mean 50 years ago, there were jets flying all >> over the world without GPS, so wouldn't it be possible, given the fact
that we know russia will do this, to fall back on those systems?
There was LORAN:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/LORAN
but indeed flying high, apart from clouds,
should make it possible to see where you are going.
compass.
And there is of course inertial navigation, https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Inertial_navigation_system
I had a go with piezo sensors but that had some drift even in an oven.
There are laser gyroscopes in use: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ring_laser_gyroscopeaccurate
very accurate, if you know heading and speed then navigation is not that hard,
like finding an airport...
IIRC V2 in WW2 used gyroscopes to find London..
Radio beacons, or normal radio stations as beacon,
simple ferrite rod as antenna, turn for maximum, or minimum.
On 4/30/24 9:28 AM, Jan Panteltje wrote:
On a sunny day (Tue, 30 Apr 2024 11:46:11 +0200) it happened D
<nospam@example.net> wrote in
<f7936dc7-71fd-a4f1-0009-03891cff5c4b@example.net>:
On Tue, 30 Apr 2024, Jan Panteltje wrote:
On a sunny day (Mon, 29 Apr 2024 21:05:50 -0400) it happened "68hx.1806" >>>> <68hx.1805@g5t8x.net> wrote in
<dkadneVy6Zdy3q37nZ2dnZfqnPWdnZ2d@earthlink.com>:
https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-13361885/Two-Finnish-passenger-jets-forced-turn-Russia-GPS-jamming-Baltic-nations-warn-M
oscows-hostile-actions-risking-air-disaster.html
Two Finnish passenger jets are forced to turn around mid-journey
due to Russian GPS jamming as Baltic nations warn Moscow's
'hostile' actions are risking an air disaster
Finnair flights to Tartu in Estonia were forced to return
to Helsinki late last week
. . .
This is extremely dangerous, esp for air traffic.
BUT ... Ukraine drones have been using GPS to
target Russian assets.
Yes, there are military systems - but they're not
gonna put that in civvie transports OR give it
to Ukraine. However Ukraine can still use civvie
radio beacons for crude targeting and then switch
to video for the final run.
In the meanwhile, DO reconsider air travel across
areas with high obstacles anywhere near the Russian
border.
On the broad note, it was ridiculous shifting almost
all navigation tech - for buzzy little planes up to
airliners, buzzy little boats up to supertankers and
mega-freighters - to ONE kind of system. GPS is a
very weak signal and CAN be jammed ... or worse,
overridden with a false signal. Russia and China
can make GPS go away any time they want.
There are several satellite navigation systems now
From
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Satellite_navigation
As of 2023, five global systems are operational:
the United States's Global Positioning System (GPS),
Russia's Global Navigation Satellite System (GLONASS),
India's Indian Regional Navigation Satellite System (IRNSS),
China's BeiDou Navigation Satellite System (BDS),
and the European Union's Galileo.[2]
Anybody with half a brain or more and a few dollars left for ice cream would add those to their navigation system:
https://www.ebay.com/b/gps-glonass/bn_7024770410
I have some in use and some for the Chinese system too.
Just a key press to change to Glonass from GPS in the software I wrote: >>>> https://panteltje.nl/panteltje/xgpspc/index.html
My drone uses Beidou or GPS...
https://panteltje.nl/panteltje/quadcopter/index.html
all kids stuff,
now those big airlines ???
LOL
I also have a sextant for at sea:
https://panteltje.online/pub/davis_sextant_IMG_6556.JPG
You need an accurate watch..
Would make sense to me if you-crane was also jamming stuff.
More interesting is creating your own artificial GPS and sending them planes wherever...
I had a go, but stopped, did not want to cause havoc with all them F35 and cars around here...
Man for a few dollars you are in!
Does this mean tha Finnair has to make a detour in the future? And are
there no ways around this? I mean 50 years ago, there were jets flying all >>> over the world without GPS, so wouldn't it be possible, given the fact
that we know russia will do this, to fall back on those systems?
There was LORAN:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/LORAN
but indeed flying high, apart from clouds,
should make it possible to see where you are going.
compass.
And there is of course inertial navigation,
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Inertial_navigation_system
I had a go with piezo sensors but that had some drift even in an oven.
There are laser gyroscopes in use:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ring_laser_gyroscopeaccurate
very accurate, if you know heading and speed then navigation is not that hard,
like finding an airport...
IIRC V2 in WW2 used gyroscopes to find London..
Radio beacons, or normal radio stations as beacon,
simple ferrite rod as antenna, turn for maximum, or minimum.
LORAN and VOR and most other alts do not give the
3D info desirable for aircraft. Modern jetliners
have GPS engineered-in to their systems and it
would be a major re-fit to jam anything else in.
Ships at sea can get by with older, less precise,
systems - but not a 787. It wouldn't be safe or
practical at this juncture.
I've done the VOR stuff - tune to a beacon, turn
the knob until you get the relative bearing, repeat
with another - and then draw lines on a paper map.
Works fine for a small plane, unless the lights
go out and you can't see the map. NOT so good on
something big going 500 knots however. By the time
you draw the lines you're WAY past that point.
And no, those older systems DIDN'T always work so
well in the past - lots of crashes, flying into
mountains or xmitter towers or into the dirt.
It's why GPS was supposed to be a panacea.
But it's a FRAGILE panacea.
Something closer to a military system really needs
to be phased in. We're talking stronger signal levels
and, esp, spread-spectrum anti-jamming methods. This
means newer, slightly larger, GPS sats. It also means
replacing or retrofitting existing GPS units esp in
airliners and mega-ships. This will take YEARS and
a lot of $$$. Might need to clear out a larger swath
of the radio spectrum - and everyone now USING that
will SUE and/or get injunctions. Alas the problem
is NOW ......
On 4/30/24 5:46 AM, D wrote:
On Tue, 30 Apr 2024, Jan Panteltje wrote:
On a sunny day (Mon, 29 Apr 2024 21:05:50 -0400) it happened "68hx.1806" >>> <68hx.1805@g5t8x.net> wrote in
<dkadneVy6Zdy3q37nZ2dnZfqnPWdnZ2d@earthlink.com>:
https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-13361885/Two-Finnish-passenger-jets-forced-turn-Russia-GPS-jamming-Baltic-nations-warn-M
oscows-hostile-actions-risking-air-disaster.html
Two Finnish passenger jets are forced to turn around mid-journey
due to Russian GPS jamming as Baltic nations warn Moscow's
'hostile' actions are risking an air disaster
Finnair flights to Tartu in Estonia were forced to return
to Helsinki late last week
. . .
This is extremely dangerous, esp for air traffic.
BUT ... Ukraine drones have been using GPS to
target Russian assets.
Yes, there are military systems - but they're not
gonna put that in civvie transports OR give it
to Ukraine. However Ukraine can still use civvie
radio beacons for crude targeting and then switch
to video for the final run.
In the meanwhile, DO reconsider air travel across
areas with high obstacles anywhere near the Russian
border.
On the broad note, it was ridiculous shifting almost
all navigation tech - for buzzy little planes up to
airliners, buzzy little boats up to supertankers and
mega-freighters - to ONE kind of system. GPS is a
very weak signal and CAN be jammed ... or worse,
overridden with a false signal. Russia and China
can make GPS go away any time they want.
There are several satellite navigation systems now
From
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Satellite_navigation
As of 2023, five global systems are operational:
the United States's Global Positioning System (GPS),
Russia's Global Navigation Satellite System (GLONASS),
India's Indian Regional Navigation Satellite System (IRNSS),
China's BeiDou Navigation Satellite System (BDS),
and the European Union's Galileo.[2]
Anybody with half a brain or more and a few dollars left for ice cream
would add those to their navigation system:
https://www.ebay.com/b/gps-glonass/bn_7024770410
I have some in use and some for the Chinese system too.
Just a key press to change to Glonass from GPS in the software I wrote:
https://panteltje.nl/panteltje/xgpspc/index.html
My drone uses Beidou or GPS...
https://panteltje.nl/panteltje/quadcopter/index.html
all kids stuff,
now those big airlines ???
LOL
I also have a sextant for at sea:
https://panteltje.online/pub/davis_sextant_IMG_6556.JPG
You need an accurate watch..
Would make sense to me if you-crane was also jamming stuff.
More interesting is creating your own artificial GPS and sending them
planes wherever...
I had a go, but stopped, did not want to cause havoc with all them F35 and >>> cars around here...
Man for a few dollars you are in!
Does this mean tha Finnair has to make a detour in the future? And are
there no ways around this? I mean 50 years ago, there were jets flying all >> over the world without GPS, so wouldn't it be possible, given the fact that >> we know russia will do this, to fall back on those systems?
The writer grossly under-estimates the scale and
scope of the problem. GPS is fully integrated with
aircraft/ship nav/autopilot systems. You don't just
replace it - it'd be a major refit.
Plus, most of those alternatives can be jammed too.
The older low-frequency beacons like VORTAC and LORAN
don't offer the precision of GPS - and no 3rd-dimension
info.
Sextants ? Do they even make those anymore ? Train
anyone to use them properly ? Might work as an
emergency backup for a ship, but they are not
gonna work on your shut-eye flight to Helsinki.
There are also websites that show air traffic globally,
On Wed, 01 May 2024 06:02:11 GMT, Jan Panteltje wrote:
There are also websites that show air traffic globally,Yes, but those depend on the ADS-B broadcasts from the plane. If its GPS
is compromised the data will be bogus too.
On the upside Boeing's shiny new ground launched missiles are worthless.
The effectiveness of the GPS guided munitions has dropped to 6% since
Russia has found you can spoof GPS signals with a SDR and a little
software.
On Wed, 01 May 2024 06:02:11 GMT, Jan Panteltje wrote:
There are also websites that show air traffic globally,
Yes, but those depend on the ADS-B broadcasts from the plane. If its GPS
is compromised the data will be bogus too.
On the upside Boeing's shiny new ground launched missiles are worthless.
The effectiveness of the GPS guided munitions has dropped to 6% since
Russia has found you can spoof GPS signals with a SDR and a little
software.
Someone mentioned laser gyroscopes and/or accelerometers.
In *theory* some might be good enough to target a missile from
perhaps 1000km. Of course you have to know EXACTLY where you are when
you launch .....
GPS target guidance system is light weight and precise, if the GPS
signal is not spoofed or jammed. GPS jamming is easier to do than GPS spoofing.
On Wed, 1 May 2024 12:10:04 -0400, 68hx.1806 wrote:
Someone mentioned laser gyroscopes and/or accelerometers.
In *theory* some might be good enough to target a missile from
perhaps 1000km. Of course you have to know EXACTLY where you are when
you launch .....
That goes back to the early Trident days. Submarines didn't know exactly where they were hence the GPS system. The Boeing missile I read about was claimed to be good for 60 miles so it's not like the Russians have to deny coverage over a wide area.
The article was short on specifics other than mentioning SDRs and saying software was available to spoof the signals. I didn't go shopping for
warez on onion :)
It did mention the missiles were 90% effective at the beginning of the conflict and had dropped to 6%. It's no secret the GPS positioning has
become widespread on the battlefield so Russia or any other state that
sees a battle in their future has been working on the problem. The
Ukrainians have given the Russians an excellent laboratory to perfect
their techniques. Of course other players, say in the Mideast, might be interested in the technology. If you can crash $100,000 missiles in a cornfield you're ahead of the game.
I doubt they were equipped with state of the art devices but I think the Russians so far have added Abrams, Leopard, and Challenger tanks to their collection of interesting machinery. I don't know if they've gotten any
more or less intact missiles or drones to examine.
On Wed, 1 May 2024 12:25:41 -0400, 😎 Mighty Wannabe ✅ wrote:
GPS target guidance system is light weight and precise, if the GPShttps://www.npr.org/2024/04/22/1245847903/israel-gps-spoofing
signal is not spoofed or jammed. GPS jamming is easier to do than GPS
spoofing.
I think at this point in the game all the players have spoofing
capability. That's the problem with military technology.
On Wed, 1 May 2024 12:25:41 -0400, 😎 Mighty Wannabe ✅ wrote:
GPS target guidance system is light weight and precise, if the GPS
signal is not spoofed or jammed. GPS jamming is easier to do than GPS
spoofing.
https://www.npr.org/2024/04/22/1245847903/israel-gps-spoofing
I think at this point in the game all the players have spoofing
capability. That's the problem with military technology.
On Wed, 01 May 2024 06:02:11 GMT, Jan Panteltje wrote:
There are also websites that show air traffic globally,
Yes, but those depend on the ADS-B broadcasts from the plane. If its GPS
is compromised the data will be bogus too.
On the upside Boeing's shiny new ground launched missiles are worthless.
The effectiveness of the GPS guided munitions has dropped to 6% since
Russia has found you can spoof GPS signals with a SDR and a little
software.
If I was fighting the enemy I would add their position system, you can compare 3 or more these days and go for a majority decision.
I will choose jamming over spoofing if I want to disable a GPS-dependent missile's target-homing capability.
On Thu, 2 May 2024 00:31:58 -0400, 😎 Mighty Wannabe ✅ wrote:
I will choose jamming over spoofing if I want to disable a GPS-dependent
missile's target-homing capability.
Spoofing would be more fun if you could manage to return the missile to
the sender.
On Thu, 2 May 2024 00:31:58 -0400, 😎 Mighty Wannabe ✅ wrote:
I will choose jamming over spoofing if I want to disable a GPS-dependent
missile's target-homing capability.
Spoofing would be more fun if you could manage to return the missile to
the sender.
On Thu, 02 May 2024 06:03:32 GMT, Jan Panteltje wrote:
If I was fighting the enemy I would add their position system, you can
compare 3 or more these days and go for a majority decision.
I don't know if DGPS would be a solution. Of course that assumes you have
a network of reference stations and the corrections could be processed in >real time.
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