On Saturday, December 30, 2023 at 10:07:24?PM UTC-5, mohammad...@gmail.com:[-]
https://www.voiceforscienceandsolidarity.org/scientific-blog/scientists-
Which creationism can be easily confirmed to be true by looking at the evidence of how subjective words, like the word beautiful, are used in common discourse.
I would respond but I'm dead, along with 40% of my vaccinated friends and relatives, exactly as you predicted 8 months ago would happen in the fall
of 2023. Believe him everybody. He's never been wrong yet.
On Monday, January 1, 2024 at 10:17:26 AM UTC-5, J. J. Lodder wrote:
Lawyer Daggett <j.nobel...@gmail.com> wrote:
On Saturday, December 30, 2023 at 10:07:24?PM UTC-5, mohammad...@gmail.com: >>>> https://www.voiceforscienceandsolidarity.org/scientific-blog/scientists- >> [-]Fortunately you are only subjectively dead.
Which creationism can be easily confirmed to be true by looking at the >>>> evidence of how subjective words, like the word beautiful, are used in >>>> common discourse.
I would respond but I'm dead, along with 40% of my vaccinated friends and >>> relatives, exactly as you predicted 8 months ago would happen in the fall >>> of 2023. Believe him everybody. He's never been wrong yet.
Those rumours of you being objectively so have been greatly exaggerated,
Jan
Well Ron Dean told me I was dead to him. Surely he wouldn't exaggerate?
On 1/1/2024 11:21 AM, Lawyer Daggett wrote:You mean he's a stiff? Bereft of life, 'e rests in peace?
On Monday, January 1, 2024 at 10:17:26 AM UTC-5, J. J. Lodder wrote:
Lawyer Daggett <j.nobel...@gmail.com> wrote:
On Saturday, December 30, 2023 at 10:07:24?PM UTC-5, mohammad...@gmail.com:[-]
https://www.voiceforscienceandsolidarity.org/scientific-blog/scientists-
Fortunately you are only subjectively dead.Which creationism can be easily confirmed to be true by looking at the >>>> evidence of how subjective words, like the word beautiful, are used in >>>> common discourse.
I would respond but I'm dead, along with 40% of my vaccinated friends and
relatives, exactly as you predicted 8 months ago would happen in the fall
of 2023. Believe him everybody. He's never been wrong yet.
Those rumours of you being objectively so have been greatly exaggerated, >>
Jan
Well Ron Dean told me I was dead to him. Surely he wouldn't exaggerate?
"she's not only merely dead
She's really most sincerely dead" https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4vFRB61xyls
--
On Wednesday, January 3, 2024 at 8:02:28 PM UTC, Zen Cycle wrote:
On 1/1/2024 11:21 AM, Lawyer Daggett wrote:You mean he's a stiff? Bereft of life, 'e rests in peace?
On Monday, January 1, 2024 at 10:17:26 AM UTC-5, J. J. Lodder wrote:"she's not only merely dead
Lawyer Daggett <j.nobel...@gmail.com> wrote:
On Saturday, December 30, 2023 at 10:07:24?PM UTC-5, mohammad...@gmail.com:Fortunately you are only subjectively dead.
https://www.voiceforscienceandsolidarity.org/scientific-blog/scientists- >>>> [-]
Which creationism can be easily confirmed to be true by looking at the >>>>>> evidence of how subjective words, like the word beautiful, are used in >>>>>> common discourse.
I would respond but I'm dead, along with 40% of my vaccinated friends and >>>>> relatives, exactly as you predicted 8 months ago would happen in the fall >>>>> of 2023. Believe him everybody. He's never been wrong yet.
Those rumours of you being objectively so have been greatly exaggerated, >>>>
Jan
Well Ron Dean told me I was dead to him. Surely he wouldn't exaggerate?
She's really most sincerely dead"
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4vFRB61xyls
--
'Is metabolic processes are now 'istory! 'E's off the twig?
'E's kicked the bucket, 'e's shuffled off 'is mortal coil,
run down the curtain and joined the bleedin' choir invisible?
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7olYJ5I9uyo
Yes it does take longer than expected, but for all this time it is essentially the same situation for the vaccinated, of a wildly evolving virus, with no possiblity of reaching herd immunity. So given that it is
a certainty that herd immunity is impossible, and given that you also
accept that immune escape could lead to mass death, then there is no way
out other than mass death.
If this were a population of chickens, or cows, then you would also
predict mass death. I think you are just holding out hope of a solution, because it's about human beings.
Here’s a fascinating video on clonal dynamics, hypermutation, affinity maturation and the hyperdarwinian hellhole for B-cells known as a germinal center. They do talk a bit about fight club:
https://youtu.be/6P28a3TmVyg?si=lFrW7QBdATDg44Qk
mohammad...@gmail.com <mohammad...@gmail.com> wrote:
Yes it does take longer than expected, but for all this time it is essentially the same situation for the vaccinated, of a wildly evolving virus, with no possiblity of reaching herd immunity. So given that it is
a certainty that herd immunity is impossible, and given that you also accept that immune escape could lead to mass death, then there is no way out other than mass death.
If this were a population of chickens, or cows, then you would also predict mass death. I think you are just holding out hope of a solution, because it's about human beings.
So multiple infections over time with SARS-CoV-2 would be preferable to being vaccinated multiple times instead? If infected by the virus which has had spike variants over time, which vaccine makers try to anticipate and match in a real life arms race, why aren’t serial infectees in a similar boat per imprinting or original sin as vaccinees? In reality many people have been vaccinated and infected multiple times resulting in a hybrid immunity which will wax and wane.
Original sin is a real concern for sure: https://virology.ws/2024/01/04/the-problem-of-original-antigenic-sin/
But maybe hypermutation resulting in immunoglobulin gene alleles better suited toward COVID variants occurs and B-cells don’t wind up as inbred sister fucking hillbillies toward Wuhan strain or the previous booster strain before XBB. At this point individuals have quite different vaccination and infection histories which might make them more or less resilient toward future variants. I really don’t know how stuck we become on the adaptive hill of what we were exposed to first, but I can’t see pure
natural immunity faring any better than being vaccinated too. If you disagree please tell me how that works out in detail in the real world, which cares not for your subjectivity.
Here’s a fascinating video on clonal dynamics, hypermutation, affinity maturation and the hyperdarwinian hellhole for B-cells known as a germinal center. They do talk a bit about fight club:
https://youtu.be/6P28a3TmVyg?si=lFrW7QBdATDg44Qk
Because the natural immunity, if you survive the infection, provides sterilizing immunity, killing the virus.
While the covid vaccines, only mitigate the disease, but still spread the virus. Including spreading it to the unvaccinated people. So people in
most African countries, where they did not do much vaccination, already
have herd immunity now, killing the virus. So that is much less virus
going around. So basically covid is endemic there, and not pandemic, like
it is in the Netherlands.
Somehow the vaccines cause the body to only provide the antibody
response, and not train the natural immunity.
I don't know why the body would be this dumb, but it is. There is the established name for it, anti body dependent enhancement of infection and disease. So it's a known mechanism.
It can also occur in unvaccinated in some scenarios, like I think when getting reinfected very quickly with a different variant, or something
like that. A situation where the anti-bodies are not matured yet, and
then they can be manipulated somehow by a new variant that the antibodies
do not fit very well.
Nando Ronteltap <nando_r...@live.nl> wrote:
Because the natural immunity, if you survive the infection, provides sterilizing immunity, killing the virus.Why are people without immunization history getting reinfected then. I’m not saying vaccination is completely sterilizing either.
While the covid vaccines, only mitigate the disease, but still spread the virus. Including spreading it to the unvaccinated people. So people in most African countries, where they did not do much vaccination, already have herd immunity now, killing the virus. So that is much less virus going around. So basically covid is endemic there, and not pandemic, like it is in the Netherlands.
Cite to peer reviewed literature on that.
Somehow the vaccines cause the body to only provide the antibody
response, and not train the natural immunity.
So infection doesn’t provide antibody response? Vaccination isn’t a training ground for immunity?
I don't know why the body would be this dumb, but it is. There is the established name for it, anti body dependent enhancement of infection and disease. So it's a known mechanism.
I think they accounted for this in construction of the spike. And why is it not happening?
It can also occur in unvaccinated in some scenarios, like I think when getting reinfected very quickly with a different variant, or something like that. A situation where the anti-bodies are not matured yet, and
then they can be manipulated somehow by a new variant that the antibodies do not fit very well.
I think vaccination is the safer way to train the immune system. Infection has way more risks. People get long COVID. Vaccinated people may get it
too, but I would presume vaccination tweaks the odds a bit. I actually don’t know if I have ever been exposed or infected. I have not had a respiratory issue since before 2020. I have had six COVID shots. I should
be dead right? Why am I still here. 3 coworkers had been sick in the recent wave, one vaccinated in October and got pretty sick. I must be lucky. It
may catch up to me soon. But many of my coworkers have been infected. I haven’t. It is a crapshoot.
Yes it does take longer than expected, but for all this time it is essentially the same situation for the vaccinated, of a wildly evolving virus, with no possiblity of reaching herd immunity. So given that it is a certainty that herd immunity is impossible, and given that you also accept that immune escape could lead to mass death, then there is no way out
other than mass death.
Because the natural immunity, if you survive the infection, provides sterilizing immunity, killing the virus. While the covid vaccines, only mitigate the disease, but still spread the virus. Including spreading it to the unvaccinated people. So peoplein most African countries, where they did not do much vaccination, already have herd immunity now, killing the virus. So that is much less virus going around. So basically covid is endemic there, and not pandemic, like it is in the Netherlands.
Somehow the vaccines cause the body to only provide the antibody response, and not train the natural immunity. I don't know why the body would be this dumb, but it is.
It can also occur in unvaccinated in some scenarios, like I think when getting reinfected very quickly with a different variant, or something like that. A situation where the anti-bodies are not matured yet, and then they can be manipulated somehow bya new variant that the antibodies do not fit very well.
Op zaterdag 6 januari 2024 om 03:52:31 UTC+1 schreef *Hemidactylus*:
mohammad...@gmail.com <mohammad...@gmail.com> wrote:
Yes it does take longer than expected, but for all this time it isSo multiple infections over time with SARS-CoV-2 would be preferable to
essentially the same situation for the vaccinated, of a wildly evolving
virus, with no possiblity of reaching herd immunity. So given that it is >>> a certainty that herd immunity is impossible, and given that you also
accept that immune escape could lead to mass death, then there is no way >>> out other than mass death.
If this were a population of chickens, or cows, then you would also
predict mass death. I think you are just holding out hope of a solution, >>> because it's about human beings.
being vaccinated multiple times instead? If infected by the virus which has >> had spike variants over time, which vaccine makers try to anticipate and
match in a real life arms race, why aren’t serial infectees in a similar >> boat per imprinting or original sin as vaccinees? In reality many people
have been vaccinated and infected multiple times resulting in a hybrid
immunity which will wax and wane.
Original sin is a real concern for sure:
https://virology.ws/2024/01/04/the-problem-of-original-antigenic-sin/
But maybe hypermutation resulting in immunoglobulin gene alleles better
suited toward COVID variants occurs and B-cells don’t wind up as inbred
sister fucking hillbillies toward Wuhan strain or the previous booster
strain before XBB. At this point individuals have quite different
vaccination and infection histories which might make them more or less
resilient toward future variants. I really don’t know how stuck we become >> on the adaptive hill of what we were exposed to first, but I can’t see pure
natural immunity faring any better than being vaccinated too. If you
disagree please tell me how that works out in detail in the real world,
which cares not for your subjectivity.
Here’s a fascinating video on clonal dynamics, hypermutation, affinity
maturation and the hyperdarwinian hellhole for B-cells known as a germinal >> center. They do talk a bit about fight club:
https://youtu.be/6P28a3TmVyg?si=lFrW7QBdATDg44Qk
For someone unvaccinated to get infected, then they might get sick, and
then the innate immune system is trained, and only at the last stage of
the being sick, when the virus is mostly cleared already, are the
antibodies introduced. So then you get a trained innate immunity, and antibodies.
But for the vaccinated, their innate immunity is never trained. They only have the mitigation of disease from the antibodies, which is now antibody dependent enhancement of infection. And then with some evolution that is
now ongoing, it will be antibody dependent enhancement of disease.
*Hemidactylus* <ecphoric@allspamis.invalid> wrote:
Nando Ronteltap <nando_ronteltap@live.nl> wrote:Oops. My bad. Due to Nando’s prodding I fell down a rabbit hole I hadn’t realized existed until today. Ignorance remedied is bliss:
[snip]
How is innate immunity “trained”? It is innate and lacks the rearrangement
For someone unvaccinated to get infected, then they might get sick, and
then the innate immune system is trained, and only at the last stage of
the being sick, when the virus is mostly cleared already, are the
antibodies introduced. So then you get a trained innate immunity, and antibodies.
But for the vaccinated, their innate immunity is never trained. They only >>> have the mitigation of disease from the antibodies, which is now antibody >>> dependent enhancement of infection. And then with some evolution that is >>> now ongoing, it will be antibody dependent enhancement of disease.
of receptor genes found in immunocytes and the hypermutation found in
B-cells. The key feature of adaptive over innate immunity is trainability. >> It remembers specific antigens.
Are you confusing innate immunity with natural immunity associated
popularly with an adaptive response to infection, instead of vaccination,
because “natural” means better if one merely appeals to Nature?
https://www.nature.com/articles/s41581-022-00633-5
Innate immunity can be trained due to epigenetic reprogramming in certain cells and there is a form of cellular memory. Kinda cool. Carry on nothing
to see here!
Nando Ronteltap <nando_ronteltap@live.nl> wrote:
[snip]
How is innate immunity “trained”? It is innate and lacks the rearrangement
For someone unvaccinated to get infected, then they might get sick, and
then the innate immune system is trained, and only at the last stage of
the being sick, when the virus is mostly cleared already, are the
antibodies introduced. So then you get a trained innate immunity, and antibodies.
But for the vaccinated, their innate immunity is never trained. They only
have the mitigation of disease from the antibodies, which is now antibody
dependent enhancement of infection. And then with some evolution that is
now ongoing, it will be antibody dependent enhancement of disease.
of receptor genes found in immunocytes and the hypermutation found in B-cells. The key feature of adaptive over innate immunity is trainability.
It remembers specific antigens.
Are you confusing innate immunity with natural immunity associated
popularly with an adaptive response to infection, instead of vaccination, because “natural” means better if one merely appeals to Nature?
*Hemidactylus* <ecphoric@allspamis.invalid> wrote:
*Hemidactylus* <ecphoric@allspamis.invalid> wrote:In a further appeal to Nature:
Nando Ronteltap <nando_ronteltap@live.nl> wrote:Oops. My bad. Due to Nando’s prodding I fell down a rabbit hole I hadn’t >> realized existed until today. Ignorance remedied is bliss:
[snip]
How is innate immunity “trained”? It is innate and lacks the rearrangement
For someone unvaccinated to get infected, then they might get sick, and >>>> then the innate immune system is trained, and only at the last stage of >>>> the being sick, when the virus is mostly cleared already, are the
antibodies introduced. So then you get a trained innate immunity, and antibodies.
But for the vaccinated, their innate immunity is never trained. They only >>>> have the mitigation of disease from the antibodies, which is now antibody >>>> dependent enhancement of infection. And then with some evolution that is >>>> now ongoing, it will be antibody dependent enhancement of disease.
of receptor genes found in immunocytes and the hypermutation found in
B-cells. The key feature of adaptive over innate immunity is trainability. >>> It remembers specific antigens.
Are you confusing innate immunity with natural immunity associated
popularly with an adaptive response to infection, instead of vaccination, >>> because “natural” means better if one merely appeals to Nature?
https://www.nature.com/articles/s41581-022-00633-5
Innate immunity can be trained due to epigenetic reprogramming in certain
cells and there is a form of cellular memory. Kinda cool. Carry on nothing >> to see here!
“An increasing body of evidence suggests that trained immunity plays a critical role in humans. First, an extensive collection of epidemiological data argues that live vaccines such as the BCG vaccine, measles vaccine, smallpox vaccine and oral polio vaccine have beneficial, non-specific protective effects against infections other than the target diseases40,41,42,43,44,45,46,47 (for a review, see also ref.48). Subsequently, proof-of-principle trials with the BCG vaccine in adults23,49 and children50,51 demonstrated that this vaccine induces non-specific activation of innate immune cells. Interestingly, both epidemiological and immunological studies have shown that the vaccine effects may last for months, but may also be modified or even reversed when a non-live vaccine
is given52,53.”
https://www.nature.com/articles/s41577-020-0285-6
Nando had said: “But for the vaccinated, their innate immunity is never trained.” which is a bit of a problematic assertion there, huh?
Also falling even deeper down the rabbit hole: https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC10265767/
“Finally, one of the most intriguing possibilities regarding the role of trained immunity in the vaccination against COVID-19 is that the novel specific vaccines currently in use may also exert trained immunity effects that could contribute to their efficacy. While the mRNA-based platform,
which is at the basis of one of the most successful anti-COVID-19 vaccines, is known to induce strong inflammation,74 very recent studies have shown
that the mRNA vaccines also induce long-term transcriptional reprogramming
of myeloid cells.75 This results in functional changes of both innate and adaptive immune cells, and the former can be considered a de facto
induction of trained immunity.76 Whether the mRNA vaccines can thus induce also cross-protection against other infections and whether these properties affect their effects against COVID-19 remain to be investigated. Interestingly, a very recent study reported that vaccination of Hong Kong residents with either the BNT162b2 mRNA vaccine or the inactivated virus vaccine CoronaVac indeed may have enhanced resistance to TB.77 On the other hand, the role of such effects in mediating some of the rare but severe inflammatory complications of vaccination (such as myocarditis and pericarditis)78 needs to be investigated.”
And given my MMR vaccination in mid-2019: “Although BCG was by far the most in-depth studied vaccine in the context of heterologous effects on
COVID-19, other vaccines have also been previously reported to induce non-specific protection against infections. One of the most consistent inducers of protective effects against all-cause mortality in children are the measles-containing vaccines.61 Though fewer studies have been performed with measles-containing vaccines, one randomized trial with MMR
revaccination in Brazil reported a significant decrease in the severity
(but not susceptibility) to COVID-19,62 mirroring the effects reported for BCG. The results of a larger international study (CROWN-CORONATION) remain
to be reported (ClinicalTrials.gov Identifier: NCT04333732).”
One of their boxed conclusions: “SARS-CoV-2 infection can induce inappropriately strong induction of trained immunity in some individuals, which can contribute to the long-term inflammatory complications.”
So about this trained immunity thing Nando?
*Hemidactylus* <ecph...@allspamis.invalid> wrote:
*Hemidactylus* <ecph...@allspamis.invalid> wrote:
Nando Ronteltap <nando_r...@live.nl> wrote:Oops. My bad. Due to Nando’s prodding I fell down a rabbit hole I hadn’t
[snip]
How is innate immunity “trained”? It is innate and lacks the rearrangement
For someone unvaccinated to get infected, then they might get sick, and >>> then the innate immune system is trained, and only at the last stage of >>> the being sick, when the virus is mostly cleared already, are the
antibodies introduced. So then you get a trained innate immunity, and antibodies.
But for the vaccinated, their innate immunity is never trained. They only
have the mitigation of disease from the antibodies, which is now antibody
dependent enhancement of infection. And then with some evolution that is >>> now ongoing, it will be antibody dependent enhancement of disease.
of receptor genes found in immunocytes and the hypermutation found in
B-cells. The key feature of adaptive over innate immunity is trainability.
It remembers specific antigens.
Are you confusing innate immunity with natural immunity associated
popularly with an adaptive response to infection, instead of vaccination, >> because “natural” means better if one merely appeals to Nature?
realized existed until today. Ignorance remedied is bliss:
https://www.nature.com/articles/s41581-022-00633-5
Innate immunity can be trained due to epigenetic reprogramming in certain cells and there is a form of cellular memory. Kinda cool. Carry on nothing to see here!
In a further appeal to Nature:
“An increasing body of evidence suggests that trained immunity plays a critical role in humans. First, an extensive collection of epidemiological data argues that live vaccines such as the BCG vaccine, measles vaccine, smallpox vaccine and oral polio vaccine have beneficial, non-specific protective effects against infections other than the target diseases40,41,42,43,44,45,46,47 (for a review, see also ref.48). Subsequently, proof-of-principle trials with the BCG vaccine in adults23,49 and children50,51 demonstrated that this vaccine induces non-specific activation of innate immune cells. Interestingly, both epidemiological and immunological studies have shown that the vaccine effects may last for months, but may also be modified or even reversed when a non-live vaccine
is given52,53.”
https://www.nature.com/articles/s41577-020-0285-6
Nando had said: “But for the vaccinated, their innate immunity is never trained.” which is a bit of a problematic assertion there, huh?
Also falling even deeper down the rabbit hole: https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC10265767/
“Finally, one of the most intriguing possibilities regarding the role of trained immunity in the vaccination against COVID-19 is that the novel specific vaccines currently in use may also exert trained immunity effects that could contribute to their efficacy. While the mRNA-based platform, which is at the basis of one of the most successful anti-COVID-19 vaccines, is known to induce strong inflammation,74 very recent studies have shown that the mRNA vaccines also induce long-term transcriptional reprogramming of myeloid cells.75 This results in functional changes of both innate and adaptive immune cells, and the former can be considered a de facto
induction of trained immunity.76 Whether the mRNA vaccines can thus induce also cross-protection against other infections and whether these properties affect their effects against COVID-19 remain to be investigated. Interestingly, a very recent study reported that vaccination of Hong Kong residents with either the BNT162b2 mRNA vaccine or the inactivated virus vaccine CoronaVac indeed may have enhanced resistance to TB.77 On the other hand, the role of such effects in mediating some of the rare but severe inflammatory complications of vaccination (such as myocarditis and pericarditis)78 needs to be investigated.”
And given my MMR vaccination in mid-2019: “Although BCG was by far the most
in-depth studied vaccine in the context of heterologous effects on
COVID-19, other vaccines have also been previously reported to induce non-specific protection against infections. One of the most consistent inducers of protective effects against all-cause mortality in children are the measles-containing vaccines.61 Though fewer studies have been performed with measles-containing vaccines, one randomized trial with MMR revaccination in Brazil reported a significant decrease in the severity
(but not susceptibility) to COVID-19,62 mirroring the effects reported for BCG. The results of a larger international study (CROWN-CORONATION) remain to be reported (ClinicalTrials.gov Identifier: NCT04333732).”
One of their boxed conclusions: “SARS-CoV-2 infection can induce inappropriately strong induction of trained immunity in some individuals, which can contribute to the long-term inflammatory complications.”
So about this trained immunity thing Nando?
A live vaccine, provides trained immunity, but not just passive
spikes. It says so in your reference a non live vaccine, may even
reverse the training.
I think these are just arbitrary details.
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