These researchers note that the X chromosome in the extant population of modern humans has a lot less Neanderthal DNA than the autosomes. My
take is that this could just be due to chance. We do not know how many initial interbreeding events occurred when the Modern humans left Africa
less than 80,000 years ago. The evidence is just that there was some
initial interbreeding, and it got distributed throughout the initial population before modern humans broke out of their initial foothold and spread out into Asia and Europe. We have evidence of more interbreeding events between Neanderthals and modern humans, but these later events
did not seem to contribute very much Neanderthal DNA to the population.
The lack of Neanderthal mitochondrial DNA could be due to selection
against that maternal type
RonO wrote:
These researchers note that the X chromosome in the extant population of
modern humans has a lot less Neanderthal DNA than the autosomes. My
take is that this could just be due to chance. We do not know how many
initial interbreeding events occurred when the Modern humans left Africa
less than 80,000 years ago. The evidence is just that there was some
initial interbreeding, and it got distributed throughout the initial
population before modern humans broke out of their initial foothold and
spread out into Asia and Europe. We have evidence of more interbreeding
events between Neanderthals and modern humans, but these later events
did not seem to contribute very much Neanderthal DNA to the population.
In many ways the Neanderthals data mirrors that of interbreeding between slaves and the people of European ancestry, in the ante bellum south.
The massive problem from the start, and it was going strong HERE, in this group, back when I was arguing that interbreeding took place and the
group argued that it didn't... the group... not a single member of talk.origins
took the "They interbred" side...
A cursory look at human history reveals that different human groups
very rarely interacted as equals. And in the case of Neanderthals and so called moderns, it was most likely Neanderthal males with so called
"Modern" females.
I mean, come on!
Neanderthal females looked like... males
Humans clearly had more than one reproductive strategy, more than
one "Culture," and Hss were very likely sexually selected.
It makes perfect sense. There were a lot of African groups, one with
a quantity-over-quality breeding strategy could recover the fastest,
fill the vacuum left after events such as Toba...
So we have ugly Neanderthals with ugly females, suddenly
encountering sexually selected (i.e. "Attractive") females...
Do the math.
IN A SINGLE GENERATION THE NEANDERTHAL MTDNA IS GONE!
And to make matters worse, it has been proposed that such
pairings were unlikely to produce viable male offspring...
https://www.smithsonianmag.com/smart-news/humans-and-neanderthals-may-have-had-trouble-making-male-babies-180958701/
The lack of Neanderthal mitochondrial DNA could be due to selection
against that maternal type
Ha! This is another error, in addition to the fantasy of symmetrical interbreeding: "All mtDNA is neutral."
It's not. Our mtDNA is very important for keeping us warm in cold
climates, as well as other things. It's under a great deal of selective pressure, or was.
The Neanderthal mtDNA was superior. Without Hsn mtDNA, the so
called moderns had to wait until they evolved new mtDNA lines
before they could really thrive in the north.
-- --
https://jtem.tumblr.com/post/27816832104
The massive problem from the start, and it was going strong HERE, in this group, back when I was arguing that interbreeding took place and the
group argued that it didn't... the group... not a single member of talk.origins
took the "They interbred" side...
At that time we had no real evidence that Nenaderthals had interbred
with humans to any significant degree
and the evidence still is that
there wasn't a whole lot of interbreeding going on.
We only had the mitochondrial evidence
RonO wrote:
The massive problem from the start, and it was going strong HERE, in this >>> group, back when I was arguing that interbreeding took place and the
group argued that it didn't... the group... not a single member of talk.origins
took the "They interbred" side...
At that time we had no real evidence that Nenaderthals had interbred
with humans to any significant degree
We had tons of evidence, plus absolutely no reason to suspect that it
didn't happen. It was the safest, the simplest, most conservative
answer and the evidence was consistent with it.
and the evidence still is that
there wasn't a whole lot of interbreeding going on.
Not true at all. Researchers claim that after maybe a thousand years,
assume you leave descendants, there won't be a trace of you left in
the DNA. And here we are TENS OF THOUSANDS OF YEARS LATER
and still carrying around Neanderthal DNA.
There was never any symmetry. Certainly no "Equality." Neanderthals
didn't equal the so called "Moderns" in numbers and it wasn't a case
where a handful of so called "Moderns" showed up at the cave door
once -- ONCE -- and that was it.
Again, it mirrors the breeding between slaves and people of European
descent in the ante bellum south, only there was many 100x as much
time to erase the evidence.
We only had the mitochondrial evidence
Which wasn't evidence for anything at all EXCEPT one type of very
unliikely interbreeding.
This is why models are so important, why evidence has to fit within
a model. Disarticulated data points are meaningless.
At the exact same time that idiots where screaming about "mtDNA
evidence" for Neanderthals, they were making the opposite
assumptions for Out of Africa.
Wilson & Cann used African Americans -- despite centuries of
interbreeding -- as stand ins for their African population, in their
landmark mtDNA study, and that study's results were later
duplicated using Africans.
But there was never any question, no doubts what so ever: There
had been plenty of interbreeding between the people of European
descent and the people of African descent in the Americas.
So there was literally NEVER a time when it was unknown that the
mtDNA "Evidence" was being misrepresented.
This is all done. Some ten years ago it was all signed, sealed and
delivered. If you're not up to speed yet, stop talking.
-- --
https://jtem.tumblr.com/post/27816832104
Even the subsequent fossil evidence of interbreeding turned out to not
have added much of any Neanderthal DNA to the population.
The existence of what we currently have left in the population was what
was thoroughly mixed in the population that would expand out from
Africa.
The same Neanderthal DNA was carried throughout Europe and
Asia.
If there was a lot of interbreeding with a really large population of
modern humans you would expect an even distribution of Neanderthal
genome in the extant population.
RonO wrote:
Even the subsequent fossil evidence of interbreeding turned out to not
have added much of any Neanderthal DNA to the population.
BILLIONS of people are walking around today carrying the remnants of
an extinct mtDNA line, ridiculously older than any Mitochondrial Eve
nonsense -- all of it absolute proof of a very deep Eurasian lineage... and nobody would even be aware of this fact if that mtDNA hadn't copied
itself over to the Chromosome 11.
Ironically, once there, the supposed "Molecular Clock" suddenly stopped...
We share nearly all our DNA with Chimps. We certainly shared a hell of
a lot more with Neanderthals...
REMEMBER: Comparing us to Neanderthals is rigged. It's not science. If
you want to grasp interbreeding you have to compare Neanderthals and
so called moderns BEFORE any interbreeding to so called moderns AFTER interbreeding.
You have to look at THEIR contemporaries.
Comparing us, right now to so called moderns of the Neanderthal era
would identify many distinctions...
The existence of what we currently have left in the population was what
was thoroughly mixed in the population that would expand out from
Africa.
What did this pre expansion African DNA look like?
Do you have any cites?
And i'm not asking for anything gleamed from people alive today or
even a thousand years ago. What did these pre expansion Africans
look like, genetically, 100 thousand years ago? Or 65 thousand years
ago?
The same Neanderthal DNA was carried throughout Europe and
Asia.
That's simply not true. There were distinctions. Native Americans
carry Neanderthal DNA but it's not the same. It's believed to have
come from an Asian population while Europeans descend from a
European group.
If there was a lot of interbreeding with a really large population of
modern humans you would expect an even distribution of Neanderthal
genome in the extant population.
I would never expect that, and have already given you two real life
examples where this never happened. One was the interbreeding of
the ante bellum south, the other was the LM3/y-chromosome insert
I just gave you.
Your assumptions are false. Period. They are not based on science,
on any actual date and they exist independent of any coherent model.
Pretty typical of you.
Yes I'm ignoring the rest of your post. These errors you've made are CRITICAL. You made critical errors. There's no point in proceeding
with treatment after you killed the patient.
-- --
https://jtem.tumblr.com/post/725671997341925376
BILLIONS of people are walking around today carrying the remnants of
an extinct mtDNA line, ridiculously older than any Mitochondrial Eve nonsense -- all of it absolute proof of a very deep Eurasian lineage... and nobody would even be aware of this fact if that mtDNA hadn't copied
itself over to the Chromosome 11.
The fact that there are Billions of extant humans outside of Africa with about the same amount of Neanderthal DNA indicates that the
interbreeding occurred early in the migration out of Africa
further interbreeding was minimal.
All the Billions of extant Asian and
European modern humans have the Neanderthal DNA that they have because
their ancestors already had that Neanderthal DNA when they moved into
that new territory.
In Asia and Indonesia there was interbreeding with
Denisovans, and we can tell that by the evidence from extant genomes
from those regions.
Ironically, once there, the supposed "Molecular Clock" suddenly stopped...
Why do you think that the molecular clock stopped?
RonO wrote:
BILLIONS of people are walking around today carrying the remnants of
an extinct mtDNA line, ridiculously older than any Mitochondrial Eve
nonsense -- all of it absolute proof of a very deep Eurasian lineage... and >>> nobody would even be aware of this fact if that mtDNA hadn't copied
itself over to the Chromosome 11.
The fact that there are Billions of extant humans outside of Africa with
about the same amount of Neanderthal DNA indicates that the
interbreeding occurred early in the migration out of Africa
No it doesn't. There is absolutely NOTHING to support such a fantasy.
There as more than one migration. Toba was a big one. Campi Fegrei
hit the giant re-set button AGAIN!
This is all about your disarticulated claims. It's pseudo scientific
rubbish. You need a model, one that encompasses all the evidence
across millennia, and everything has to fit into that model like the
pieces of a jigsaw puzzle.
Aquatic Ape has this. The good Doctor has this. You don't even seem
to be aware that you need to be doing this.
further interbreeding was minimal.
Why? Who says? Where?
All the Billions of extant Asian and
European modern humans have the Neanderthal DNA that they have because
their ancestors already had that Neanderthal DNA when they moved into
that new territory.
From where? If europeans have Neanderthal DNA because they didn't live within the range of Neanderthals, they came from somewhere else, then where did they come from? And why were their Neanderthals there?
In Asia and Indonesia there was interbreeding with
Denisovans, and we can tell that by the evidence from extant genomes
from those regions.
What Denisovans? Denisovans are at least as distinct from each other as
they are from Neanderthals. Google it, for Christ's sake.
[Speaking of the Chromosome 11 insert]
Ironically, once there, the supposed "Molecular Clock" suddenly stopped...
Why do you think that the molecular clock stopped?
Because it did. It's what the researchers state.
Moved to Chromosome 11, it's no longer under selective pressure.
This is just ridiculous. Please stop.
-- --
https://jtem.tumblr.com/post/726269948403564544
Read the papers.
It is the primary explanation at this time.
RonO wrote:
Read the papers.
"I don't know what I mean and I certainly can't form & articulate a
position so just read some cite that I never read nor understood
and guess at what I might mean."
If I could make you to grasp one thing, it would be that science is consistent. If I could make you grasp one thing about human
origins is that nothing is of any value what so ever unless and
until you fit it into a wide & cohesive model.
It is the primary explanation at this time.
What is? Be specific?
Because you're a fraud. You have no idea what your own goddamn
cite says, much less what it does or does not attempt to explain.
Again, if you want to grasp interbreeding you need to look at the
DNA of the Neanderthals BEFORE such interbreeding and compare
it to the so called moderns BEFORE the interbreeding.
This is not difficult. Children can grasp this.
Compare Neanderthals to their contemporaries, not us.
If you compare us to the so called moderns during the era of the
Neanderthals we're going to look VERY different. Saying we look
different from Neanderthals is just plain stupid.
Interbreeding NEVER failed to occur. It wasn't a one time thing or
a rare thing. But it could only happen at the fringes. It happened
where two groups met -- the extant of each range. UNTIL there
were catastrophes like Toba, for example, where vacuums were
created, where the group that recovered first and/was impacted
the least could push into what was formerly the range of the other.
NOTHING you are capable of citing can contradict this, and you
wouldn't be able to understand it anyway...
-- --
https://jtem.tumblr.com/post/72626994840356454
The explanation that the interbreeding occurred early in our expansion
out of Africa
It is the primary explanation at this time.
What is? Be specific?
That the interbreeding between Neanderthals and modern humans
that
accounts for the Neanderthal DNA found in our extant genomes
occurred
You have no idea how DNA works.
That you
RonO wrote:
The explanation that the interbreeding occurred early in our expansion
out of Africa
Well our ancestors weren't in Africa 3 to 4 million years ago when the retrovirus was spreading through African apes, but not Asian apes or
humans.
So is THAT what you mean by "Early?" That 3 to 4 million years ago?
What about the 2-million-plus year old tools in China? Is THAT what
you mean by "Early?"
Heidelberg man? Neanderthal? Denisovan? is THAT what you mean
by "Early?"
You need a cohesive model and you don't have one.
NOTHING you are saying fits the big picture, all the known evidence.
You have to ignore things in order to pretend your words aren't
gibberish mumbled by an idiot.
It is the primary explanation at this time.
What is? Be specific?
That the interbreeding between Neanderthals and modern humans
First place they weren't "Modern." They were archaic. It was the interbreeding with Neanderthals that was turning something that
looked like "Ugh the Cave Man" into Cro Magnum. This fantasy
that Cro Magnum fell out of the sky and appeared in Europe
full formed, exactly as they hadn't anywhere else on the planet, is
just another symptom of your disorder...
that
accounts for the Neanderthal DNA found in our extant genomes
occurred
You have no idea how DNA works. You never read much less
understood a word a said, a single example I gave:
It's idiocy. You have to compare Neanderthals to their contemporaries,
not us. You have to compare us to their contemporaries. This is basic
stuff. Children can grasp it. If you want to know how different the Neanderthals looked from the so called moderns they were breeding
with, look at the so called moderns and not us. We weren't there. We
are very different from those so called moderns.
This is base. It's like the "You must be at least this tall" sign at the roller coaster. If your intellect isn't tall enough to grasp this, you can't ride.
-- --
https://jtem.tumblr.com/post/726385068482936832
RonO wrote:
[nut job]
Again, comparing Neanderthals to their contemporaries would tell
you exactly how different they were from each other. Comparing
the two to Cro Magnum would let you know how much mixing went
on. Comparing the present day population to Neanderthals is stupid.
It's not science. It doesn't make sense. It can't tell us anything about interbreeding at all.
You have no clue. You're a child, an idiot child regurgitating a
headline while never having any hope of grasping what the cite
actually says, much less evaluating it.
You're a religious fundamentalists demanding a strict, literal
interpretation of scripture...
-- --
https://jtem.tumblr.com/post/726484256981958656
On 8/23/2023 11:46 PM, JTEM is my hero wrote:
RonO wrote:
[nut job]
Again, comparing Neanderthals to their contemporaries would tell
you exactly how different they were from each other. Comparing
the two to Cro Magnum would let you know how much mixing went
on. Comparing the present day population to Neanderthals is stupid.
It's not science. It doesn't make sense. It can't tell us anything about
interbreeding at all.
You have no clue. You're a child, an idiot child regurgitating a
headline while never having any hope of grasping what the cite
actually says, much less evaluating it.
You're a religious fundamentalists demanding a strict, literal
interpretation of scripture...
You seem to be talking to yourself again. Why not just read the papers
for comprehension?
On 5/22/24 1:22 PM, Ron Dean wrote:
RonO wrote:
https://journals.plos.org/plosgenetics/article?id=10.1371/journal.pgen.1010399If Neanderthals and Modern Homo Sapiens could breed and produce
These researchers note that the X chromosome in the extant population
of modern humans has a lot less Neanderthal DNA than the autosomes.
My take is that this could just be due to chance. We do not know how
many initial interbreeding events occurred when the Modern humans
left Africa less than 80,000 years ago. The evidence is just that
there was some initial interbreeding, and it got distributed
throughout the initial population before modern humans broke out of
their initial foothold and spread out into Asia and Europe. We have
evidence of more interbreeding events between Neanderthals and modern
humans, but these later events did not seem to contribute very much
Neanderthal DNA to the population.
Whatever happened occurred early in the migration out of Africa and
was probably limited in scope so the fact that the X chromosome is
most prone to losing variation (inbreeding effects) more Neanderthal
DNA could have been lost by chance. There is even the possibility
that the Neanderthal X was incompatible with the Modern Human Y
chromosome and would have been selected against in males. No
Neanderthal Y chromosomes survive in the extant population. We
haven't found any Neanderthal mitochondrial DNA in the extant
population, and this also could be due to chance that no maternal
lineages survived. There may not have been a lot of interbreeding
involved. Most of the Neanderthal DNA in modern humans accounts for
only 20% of the Neanderthal genome. This is like one second
backcross individual putting most of the Neanderthal DNA into our
current population, and the related individuals having a lot fewer
descendants.
What we know is that the existing evidence for ancient DNA indicates
that males stayed with the family groups and it was the females that
moved between family groups. If this was going on when modern humans
first met Neanderthals it would explain the male bias within the
modern human population. Neanderthal females may have been adopted
into the group, but the hybrid daughters would be the ones going to
another modern human family group, so if the exchange with
Neanderthal females was at some low frequency it would be mostly
hybrid daughters being crossed to modern human males spreading the
Neanderthal genetics through the modern human population.
;
fertile offspring, would this not imply, that in reality the two were
the same species?
No. Many species are capable of interbreeding to produce fertile
offspring. Ducks are famous for it.
But due to the various definitions of species, perhaps the word
family(kind) would be a better fit. "Kinds cannot interbreed whereas
species in many cases can interbreed.
Family and "kind" are not synonymous, and in fact there's no such thing
as a "kind".
Ever notice how drawings or Neanderthal evolved from a primitive
stooped man to a modern looking man if dressed in a current day suit,
he would appear modern.
Even if you said that in grammatical English I doubt it would make sense.
The lack of Neanderthal mitochondrial DNA could be due to selection
against that maternal type, but might also be due to mostly hybrid
females coming back from Neanderthal families contributing
Neanderthal DNA to the modern human population. Since we do not know
how many interbreeding events there were it might have only been one
hybrid female returning from a Neanderthal family group.
Ron Okimoto
RonO wrote:
https://journals.plos.org/plosgenetics/article?id=10.1371/journal.pgen.1010399
These researchers note that the X chromosome in the extant population
of modern humans has a lot less Neanderthal DNA than the autosomes.
My take is that this could just be due to chance. We do not know how
many initial interbreeding events occurred when the Modern humans left
Africa less than 80,000 years ago. The evidence is just that there
was some initial interbreeding, and it got distributed throughout the
initial population before modern humans broke out of their initial
foothold and spread out into Asia and Europe. We have evidence of
more interbreeding events between Neanderthals and modern humans, but
these later events did not seem to contribute very much Neanderthal
DNA to the population.
Whatever happened occurred early in the migration out of Africa and
was probably limited in scope so the fact that the X chromosome is
most prone to losing variation (inbreeding effects) more Neanderthal
DNA could have been lost by chance. There is even the possibility
that the Neanderthal X was incompatible with the Modern Human Y
chromosome and would have been selected against in males. No
Neanderthal Y chromosomes survive in the extant population. We
haven't found any Neanderthal mitochondrial DNA in the extant
population, and this also could be due to chance that no maternal
lineages survived. There may not have been a lot of interbreeding
involved. Most of the Neanderthal DNA in modern humans accounts for
only 20% of the Neanderthal genome. This is like one second backcross
individual putting most of the Neanderthal DNA into our current
population, and the related individuals having a lot fewer descendants.
What we know is that the existing evidence for ancient DNA indicates
that males stayed with the family groups and it was the females that
moved between family groups. If this was going on when modern humans
first met Neanderthals it would explain the male bias within the
modern human population. Neanderthal females may have been adopted
into the group, but the hybrid daughters would be the ones going to
another modern human family group, so if the exchange with Neanderthal
females was at some low frequency it would be mostly hybrid daughters
being crossed to modern human males spreading the Neanderthal genetics
through the modern human population.
If Neanderthals and Modern Homo Sapiens could breed and produce fertile offspring, would this not imply, that in reality the two were the same species? But due to the various definitions of species, perhaps the word family(kind) would be a better fit. "Kinds cannot interbreed whereas
species in many cases can interbreed.
Ever notice how drawings or Neanderthal evolved from a primitive stooped
man to a modern looking man if dressed in a current day suit, he would
appear modern.
The lack of Neanderthal mitochondrial DNA could be due to selection
against that maternal type, but might also be due to mostly hybrid
females coming back from Neanderthal families contributing Neanderthal
DNA to the modern human population. Since we do not know how many
interbreeding events there were it might have only been one hybrid
female returning from a Neanderthal family group.
Ron Okimoto
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