• OT: Religious Reflections

    From Martin Harran@21:1/5 to All on Wed Jan 25 17:13:26 2023
    My religious beliefs have occasionally been discussed here, mainly by
    Glenn who insists that I am really an atheist and Peter who has
    claimed I am an apostate Catholic. The link below is to some religious contributions I have made to our diocesan periodical over the last two
    years or so; if nothing else, the articles show how vacuous the claims
    are by those two posters.

    The articles are purely religious with no scientific content so are of
    little or no direct interest to most people here but if anyone wants
    to discuss any of them, feel free to do so - probably better by
    commenting at the site rather than creating a distraction here.

    I hope to add some material at a later stage relating to the
    religion/science interface. If and when I do so, I may link to it
    here.

    The site itself is a bit basic at the moment and does need some
    polishing up which I will work on gradually.

    https://www.martinharran.com/net-reflections/

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  • From erik simpson@21:1/5 to martin...@gmail.com on Wed Jan 25 10:30:34 2023
    On Wednesday, January 25, 2023 at 9:15:04 AM UTC-8, martin...@gmail.com wrote:
    My religious beliefs have occasionally been discussed here, mainly by
    Glenn who insists that I am really an atheist and Peter who has
    claimed I am an apostate Catholic. The link below is to some religious contributions I have made to our diocesan periodical over the last two
    years or so; if nothing else, the articles show how vacuous the claims
    are by those two posters.

    The articles are purely religious with no scientific content so are of
    little or no direct interest to most people here but if anyone wants
    to discuss any of them, feel free to do so - probably better by
    commenting at the site rather than creating a distraction here.

    I hope to add some material at a later stage relating to the
    religion/science interface. If and when I do so, I may link to it
    here.

    The site itself is a bit basic at the moment and does need some
    polishing up which I will work on gradually.

    https://www.martinharran.com/net-reflections/

    I'd be surprised if anyone other than those you mentioned have any reason to doubt your faith is what you say it is, not that it's anyone else's business. Opinions
    based on ignorance are what they are; not worth very much.

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  • From Martin Harran@21:1/5 to All on Wed Jan 25 18:30:07 2023
    P.S. Where has Glenn gone to? Is it just coincidence that he and
    Nyikos are taking a break at the same time?

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  • From Bob Casanova@21:1/5 to All on Wed Jan 25 11:45:55 2023
    On Wed, 25 Jan 2023 17:13:26 +0000, the following appeared
    in talk.origins, posted by Martin Harran
    <martinharran@gmail.com>:

    My religious beliefs have occasionally been discussed here, mainly by
    Glenn who insists that I am really an atheist and Peter who has
    claimed I am an apostate Catholic. The link below is to some religious >contributions I have made to our diocesan periodical over the last two
    years or so; if nothing else, the articles show how vacuous the claims
    are by those two posters.

    The articles are purely religious with no scientific content so are of
    little or no direct interest to most people here but if anyone wants
    to discuss any of them, feel free to do so - probably better by
    commenting at the site rather than creating a distraction here.

    I hope to add some material at a later stage relating to the
    religion/science interface. If and when I do so, I may link to it
    here.

    The site itself is a bit basic at the moment and does need some
    polishing up which I will work on gradually.

    https://www.martinharran.com/net-reflections/

    Interesting; thanks.

    You *do* realize that neither Glenn nor Peter is qualified
    to pass judgement on anyone else's honesty or beliefs,
    right?

    --

    Bob C.

    "The most exciting phrase to hear in science,
    the one that heralds new discoveries, is not
    'Eureka!' but 'That's funny...'"

    - Isaac Asimov

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  • From Martin Harran@21:1/5 to eastside.erik@gmail.com on Thu Jan 26 07:30:41 2023
    On Wed, 25 Jan 2023 10:30:34 -0800 (PST), erik simpson <eastside.erik@gmail.com> wrote:

    On Wednesday, January 25, 2023 at 9:15:04 AM UTC-8, martin...@gmail.com wrote: >> My religious beliefs have occasionally been discussed here, mainly by
    Glenn who insists that I am really an atheist and Peter who has
    claimed I am an apostate Catholic. The link below is to some religious
    contributions I have made to our diocesan periodical over the last two
    years or so; if nothing else, the articles show how vacuous the claims
    are by those two posters.

    The articles are purely religious with no scientific content so are of
    little or no direct interest to most people here but if anyone wants
    to discuss any of them, feel free to do so - probably better by
    commenting at the site rather than creating a distraction here.

    I hope to add some material at a later stage relating to the
    religion/science interface. If and when I do so, I may link to it
    here.

    The site itself is a bit basic at the moment and does need some
    polishing up which I will work on gradually.

    https://www.martinharran.com/net-reflections/

    I'd be surprised if anyone other than those you mentioned have any reason to >doubt your faith is what you say it is, not that it's anyone else's business. Opinions
    based on ignorance are what they are; not worth very much.

    Yes, but showing opinions to be based on ignorance is a fundamental
    part of TO's raison d'être.

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  • From israel socratus@21:1/5 to All on Thu Jan 26 00:08:35 2023
    " If He (God) understands Math and Physics then He exists." / Frank Tipler. /

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  • From Martin Harran@21:1/5 to All on Thu Jan 26 07:31:18 2023
    On Wed, 25 Jan 2023 11:45:55 -0700, Bob Casanova <nospam@buzz.off>
    wrote:

    On Wed, 25 Jan 2023 17:13:26 +0000, the following appeared
    in talk.origins, posted by Martin Harran
    <martinharran@gmail.com>:

    My religious beliefs have occasionally been discussed here, mainly by
    Glenn who insists that I am really an atheist and Peter who has
    claimed I am an apostate Catholic. The link below is to some religious >>contributions I have made to our diocesan periodical over the last two >>years or so; if nothing else, the articles show how vacuous the claims
    are by those two posters.

    The articles are purely religious with no scientific content so are of >>little or no direct interest to most people here but if anyone wants
    to discuss any of them, feel free to do so - probably better by
    commenting at the site rather than creating a distraction here.

    I hope to add some material at a later stage relating to the >>religion/science interface. If and when I do so, I may link to it
    here.

    The site itself is a bit basic at the moment and does need some
    polishing up which I will work on gradually.

    https://www.martinharran.com/net-reflections/

    Interesting; thanks.

    You *do* realize that neither Glenn nor Peter is qualified
    to pass judgement on anyone else's honesty or beliefs,
    right?


    Yep, but that doesn't stop them doing it.

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  • From brogers31751@gmail.com@21:1/5 to martin...@gmail.com on Thu Jan 26 02:47:40 2023
    On Thursday, January 26, 2023 at 2:35:05 AM UTC-5, martin...@gmail.com wrote:
    On Wed, 25 Jan 2023 10:30:34 -0800 (PST), erik simpson
    <eastsi...@gmail.com> wrote:

    On Wednesday, January 25, 2023 at 9:15:04 AM UTC-8, martin...@gmail.com wrote:
    My religious beliefs have occasionally been discussed here, mainly by
    Glenn who insists that I am really an atheist and Peter who has
    claimed I am an apostate Catholic. The link below is to some religious
    contributions I have made to our diocesan periodical over the last two
    years or so; if nothing else, the articles show how vacuous the claims
    are by those two posters.

    The articles are purely religious with no scientific content so are of
    little or no direct interest to most people here but if anyone wants
    to discuss any of them, feel free to do so - probably better by
    commenting at the site rather than creating a distraction here.

    I hope to add some material at a later stage relating to the
    religion/science interface. If and when I do so, I may link to it
    here.

    The site itself is a bit basic at the moment and does need some
    polishing up which I will work on gradually.

    https://www.martinharran.com/net-reflections/

    I'd be surprised if anyone other than those you mentioned have any reason to
    doubt your faith is what you say it is, not that it's anyone else's business. Opinions
    based on ignorance are what they are; not worth very much.
    Yes, but showing opinions to be based on ignorance is a fundamental
    part of TO's raison d'être.
    I think that's generally true, but when the opinions are simply personal opinions about another individual then I don't much see the point. Who cares what they say about you here? Anybody whose opinion of you is even remotely worth thinking about is
    going to form that opinion based on what you yourself post, not what somebody else's post says about you.

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  • From Ernest Major@21:1/5 to Martin Harran on Thu Jan 26 22:09:24 2023
    On 25/01/2023 17:13, Martin Harran wrote:
    My religious beliefs have occasionally been discussed here, mainly by
    Glenn who insists that I am really an atheist and Peter who has
    claimed I am an apostate Catholic. The link below is to some religious contributions I have made to our diocesan periodical over the last two
    years or so; if nothing else, the articles show how vacuous the claims
    are by those two posters.

    The strange thing is that according to Peter he is an apostate Catholic,
    at least in so far as he says that he is an (explicit, but not dogmatic) atheist (though he prefers the term agnostic as a self-identification).

    --
    alias Ernest Major

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  • From RonO@21:1/5 to Ernest Major on Thu Jan 26 17:20:21 2023
    On 1/26/2023 4:09 PM, Ernest Major wrote:
    On 25/01/2023 17:13, Martin Harran wrote:
    My religious beliefs have occasionally been discussed here, mainly by
    Glenn who insists that I am really an atheist and Peter who has
    claimed I am an apostate Catholic. The link below is to some religious
    contributions I have made to our diocesan periodical over the last two
    years or so; if nothing else, the articles show how vacuous the claims
    are by those two posters.

    The strange thing is that according to Peter he is an apostate Catholic,
    at least in so far as he says that he is an (explicit, but not dogmatic) atheist (though he prefers the term agnostic as a self-identification).


    He also claimed that he attended church regularly, but he was the
    creationists that tried to defend Pascal's wager on TO. Beats me how
    anyone would think that they could lie to the god that they were
    supposed to be worshiping.

    Ron Okimoto

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  • From Martin Harran@21:1/5 to brogers31751@gmail.com on Fri Jan 27 13:46:45 2023
    On Thu, 26 Jan 2023 02:47:40 -0800 (PST), "broger...@gmail.com" <brogers31751@gmail.com> wrote:

    On Thursday, January 26, 2023 at 2:35:05 AM UTC-5, martin...@gmail.com wrote: >> On Wed, 25 Jan 2023 10:30:34 -0800 (PST), erik simpson
    <eastsi...@gmail.com> wrote:

    On Wednesday, January 25, 2023 at 9:15:04 AM UTC-8, martin...@gmail.com wrote:
    My religious beliefs have occasionally been discussed here, mainly by
    Glenn who insists that I am really an atheist and Peter who has
    claimed I am an apostate Catholic. The link below is to some religious
    contributions I have made to our diocesan periodical over the last two
    years or so; if nothing else, the articles show how vacuous the claims
    are by those two posters.

    The articles are purely religious with no scientific content so are of
    little or no direct interest to most people here but if anyone wants
    to discuss any of them, feel free to do so - probably better by
    commenting at the site rather than creating a distraction here.

    I hope to add some material at a later stage relating to the
    religion/science interface. If and when I do so, I may link to it
    here.

    The site itself is a bit basic at the moment and does need some
    polishing up which I will work on gradually.

    https://www.martinharran.com/net-reflections/

    I'd be surprised if anyone other than those you mentioned have any reason to
    doubt your faith is what you say it is, not that it's anyone else's business. Opinions
    based on ignorance are what they are; not worth very much.
    Yes, but showing opinions to be based on ignorance is a fundamental
    part of TO's raison d'être.
    I think that's generally true, but when the opinions are simply personal opinions about another individual then I don't much see the point. Who cares what they say about you here? Anybody whose opinion of you is even remotely worth thinking about is
    going to form that opinion based on what you yourself post, not what somebody else's post says about you.

    Glenn and Peter both post lots of crap but plenty of people are
    willing to tackle them on it. I don't see their personal attacks as
    any different.

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  • From Kalkidas@21:1/5 to Martin Harran on Fri Jan 27 12:17:45 2023
    On 1/25/2023 10:13 AM, Martin Harran wrote:
    My religious beliefs have occasionally been discussed here, mainly by
    Glenn who insists that I am really an atheist and Peter who has
    claimed I am an apostate Catholic. The link below is to some religious contributions I have made to our diocesan periodical over the last two
    years or so; if nothing else, the articles show how vacuous the claims
    are by those two posters.

    The articles are purely religious with no scientific content so are of
    little or no direct interest to most people here but if anyone wants
    to discuss any of them, feel free to do so - probably better by
    commenting at the site rather than creating a distraction here.

    I hope to add some material at a later stage relating to the
    religion/science interface. If and when I do so, I may link to it
    here.

    The site itself is a bit basic at the moment and does need some
    polishing up which I will work on gradually.

    https://www.martinharran.com/net-reflections/



    I know how you feel. I get called a "Hindu" by some here.

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  • From Zen Cycle@21:1/5 to Bob Casanova on Sun Jan 29 07:54:51 2023
    On Wednesday, January 25, 2023 at 1:50:04 PM UTC-5, Bob Casanova wrote:
    On Wed, 25 Jan 2023 17:13:26 +0000, the following appeared
    in talk.origins, posted by Martin Harran
    <martin...@gmail.com>:
    My religious beliefs have occasionally been discussed here, mainly by
    Glenn who insists that I am really an atheist and Peter who has
    claimed I am an apostate Catholic. The link below is to some religious >contributions I have made to our diocesan periodical over the last two >years or so; if nothing else, the articles show how vacuous the claims
    are by those two posters.

    The articles are purely religious with no scientific content so are of >little or no direct interest to most people here but if anyone wants
    to discuss any of them, feel free to do so - probably better by
    commenting at the site rather than creating a distraction here.

    I hope to add some material at a later stage relating to the >religion/science interface. If and when I do so, I may link to it
    here.

    The site itself is a bit basic at the moment and does need some
    polishing up which I will work on gradually.

    https://www.martinharran.com/net-reflections/

    Interesting; thanks.

    You *do* realize that neither Glenn nor Peter is qualified
    to pass judgement on anyone else's honesty or beliefs,
    right?

    --

    +1

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  • From Zen Cycle@21:1/5 to Ron O on Sun Jan 29 07:57:43 2023
    On Thursday, January 26, 2023 at 6:25:05 PM UTC-5, Ron O wrote:
    On 1/26/2023 4:09 PM, Ernest Major wrote:
    On 25/01/2023 17:13, Martin Harran wrote:
    My religious beliefs have occasionally been discussed here, mainly by
    Glenn who insists that I am really an atheist and Peter who has
    claimed I am an apostate Catholic. The link below is to some religious
    contributions I have made to our diocesan periodical over the last two
    years or so; if nothing else, the articles show how vacuous the claims
    are by those two posters.

    The strange thing is that according to Peter he is an apostate Catholic,
    at least in so far as he says that he is an (explicit, but not dogmatic) atheist (though he prefers the term agnostic as a self-identification).

    He also claimed that he attended church regularly, but he was the creationists that tried to defend Pascal's wager on TO. Beats me how
    anyone would think that they could lie to the god that they were
    supposed to be worshiping.

    To me, that was always the biggest flaw in pascals wager - If this god is as omniscient as they claim, what makes them think anyone could bullshit it?

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  • From Burkhard@21:1/5 to funkma...@hotmail.com on Wed Feb 1 08:02:50 2023
    On Sunday, January 29, 2023 at 4:00:08 PM UTC, funkma...@hotmail.com wrote:
    On Thursday, January 26, 2023 at 6:25:05 PM UTC-5, Ron O wrote:
    On 1/26/2023 4:09 PM, Ernest Major wrote:
    On 25/01/2023 17:13, Martin Harran wrote:
    My religious beliefs have occasionally been discussed here, mainly by >> Glenn who insists that I am really an atheist and Peter who has
    claimed I am an apostate Catholic. The link below is to some religious >> contributions I have made to our diocesan periodical over the last two >> years or so; if nothing else, the articles show how vacuous the claims >> are by those two posters.

    The strange thing is that according to Peter he is an apostate Catholic, at least in so far as he says that he is an (explicit, but not dogmatic) atheist (though he prefers the term agnostic as a self-identification).

    He also claimed that he attended church regularly, but he was the creationists that tried to defend Pascal's wager on TO. Beats me how anyone would think that they could lie to the god that they were
    supposed to be worshiping.
    To me, that was always the biggest flaw in pascals wager - If this god is as omniscient as they claim, what makes them think anyone could bullshit it?

    because they are beasts - or so Pascal says. If someone does not believe in God, but chooses to as a result of the wager, then the effect on them is "abetira", it makes them beast-like. Now, Pascal's Pensees are notoriously difficult to interpret, being
    mere drafts with lots of scribbles, corrections etc but to me this indicates that the Wager is not directed at atheists at all, and not intended to change someone's mind (and it would have this in common with Aquinas's proofs, which were also only ever
    intended as in internal consistency check for someone who does already believe.

    The result is not aggressive proselyting, but a more modest religion - one that admits that there are no good epistemic reasons for Gods existence, but that the believer nonetheless on their own terms acts prudently when they continue to believe

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