• Decline in disruptive science

    From RonO@21:1/5 to All on Sun Jan 8 19:59:49 2023
    https://www.nature.com/articles/d41586-022-04577-5

    QUOTE:
    The number of science and technology research papers published has
    skyrocketed over the past few decades — but the ‘disruptiveness’ of
    those papers has dropped, according to an analysis of how radically
    papers depart from the previous literature1.
    END QUOTE:

    Like they claim in the article there are a lot more scientists
    publishing a lot more papers, but my guess is that a lot of the papers
    never needed to be published. Publish or perish seems to be a game of publication counts. I just reviewed a paper where they were trying to
    publish a study that they did using the same genotyped populations
    published 3 other times before, they just analyze the genotypes using
    another method. My take is that incremental improvements is all that
    you can expect with that type of publication.

    Retraction watch is something that should be taken seriously. These
    guys are uncovering paper mill journals, and cabals of "researchers"
    that take turns reviewing each other's manuscripts. These types aren't scientists, they are obviously not interested in doing any viable
    science or they wouldn't need help getting their junk published.

    https://www.science.org/content/article/what-massive-database-retracted-papers-reveals-about-science-publishing-s-death-penalty

    One science news article that I recall seeing this year included one
    graduate student that had over 100 publications and he was still working
    on his PhD. Apparently he had been making up the data and research
    using whatever he could get hold of, and getting published. That type
    has to be insane, how can you hide something like that when you look for
    a job? The current system allowed him to do that. When I was a
    graduate student there was researcher at the Univeristy medical center
    who had gotten millions of dollars in NIH grants. He published a lot,
    but when they checked his equipment use he hadn't used the necessary
    equipment enough to have done all his experiments that he had published.
    He was just making up experimental results that were consistent with experiments he had actually done years before.

    A lot of the insignificant science isn't fraud, but just insignificant.

    The statistic that they should use is not quality of papers, but the
    actual number of disruptive science papers that get published every
    year. That number has likely continued to increase, but likely less,
    and less of an increase over time because the closer you get to solving
    the mysteries the fewer mysteries there are to solve, and we rely on technological improvements that allow us to do things that we never
    could before. Really, something has to feed the paper mill types.
    Anything new gets jumped on and possibly over used resulting in a lot of research that probably shouldn't have been published. Look at CRISPR
    gene editing. The vast majority of papers are just "we can do it too"
    papers, but it spawned an amazing amount of research on modifications of
    the system, and getting it to do new things, so there is a lot of "so
    what?" but there has also been more than enough research to do something different with it or make it more efficient. You just have to have hip
    waders to navigate through what gets published.

    Ron Okimoto

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  • From J. J. Lodder@21:1/5 to RonO on Mon Jan 9 13:27:39 2023
    RonO <rokimoto@cox.net> wrote:

    https://www.nature.com/articles/d41586-022-04577-5

    QUOTE:
    The number of science and technology research papers published has skyrocketed over the past few decades — but the 'disruptiveness' of
    those papers has dropped, according to an analysis of how radically
    papers depart from the previous literature1.
    END QUOTE:

    This ' - and no one knows why'. is disingenious at best.
    It is an obvious consequence of the way
    science has been (mis)managed for decades.
    Science managers seem incapable to understand
    that 'you get what you ask for' applies for science too.

    They believe that somehow, somewhere, originality and creativity
    will survive all bureaucratic oppression.

    Jan

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  • From brogers31751@gmail.com@21:1/5 to Ron O on Mon Jan 9 04:50:33 2023
    On Sunday, January 8, 2023 at 9:00:44 PM UTC-5, Ron O wrote:
    https://www.nature.com/articles/d41586-022-04577-5

    QUOTE:
    The number of science and technology research papers published has skyrocketed over the past few decades — but the ‘disruptiveness’ of those papers has dropped, according to an analysis of how radically
    papers depart from the previous literature1.
    END QUOTE:

    Like they claim in the article there are a lot more scientists
    publishing a lot more papers, but my guess is that a lot of the papers
    never needed to be published. Publish or perish seems to be a game of publication counts. I just reviewed a paper where they were trying to publish a study that they did using the same genotyped populations
    published 3 other times before, they just analyze the genotypes using another method. My take is that incremental improvements is all that
    you can expect with that type of publication.

    Retraction watch is something that should be taken seriously. These
    guys are uncovering paper mill journals, and cabals of "researchers"
    that take turns reviewing each other's manuscripts. These types aren't scientists, they are obviously not interested in doing any viable
    science or they wouldn't need help getting their junk published.

    https://www.science.org/content/article/what-massive-database-retracted-papers-reveals-about-science-publishing-s-death-penalty

    One science news article that I recall seeing this year included one graduate student that had over 100 publications and he was still working
    on his PhD. Apparently he had been making up the data and research
    using whatever he could get hold of, and getting published. That type
    has to be insane, how can you hide something like that when you look for
    a job? The current system allowed him to do that. When I was a
    graduate student there was researcher at the Univeristy medical center
    who had gotten millions of dollars in NIH grants. He published a lot,
    but when they checked his equipment use he hadn't used the necessary equipment enough to have done all his experiments that he had published.
    He was just making up experimental results that were consistent with experiments he had actually done years before.

    A lot of the insignificant science isn't fraud, but just insignificant.

    The statistic that they should use is not quality of papers, but the
    actual number of disruptive science papers that get published every
    year. That number has likely continued to increase, but likely less,
    and less of an increase over time because the closer you get to solving
    the mysteries the fewer mysteries there are to solve, and we rely on technological improvements that allow us to do things that we never
    could before. Really, something has to feed the paper mill types.
    Anything new gets jumped on and possibly over used resulting in a lot of research that probably shouldn't have been published. Look at CRISPR
    gene editing. The vast majority of papers are just "we can do it too" papers, but it spawned an amazing amount of research on modifications of
    the system, and getting it to do new things, so there is a lot of "so
    what?" but there has also been more than enough research to do something different with it or make it more efficient. You just have to have hip waders to navigate through what gets published.

    Ron Okimoto
    If you fund safe research that will yield incremental positive results, you will end up with a lot of safe research that just make incremental progress.

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  • From J. J. Lodder@21:1/5 to broger...@gmail.com on Tue Jan 10 15:49:00 2023
    broger...@gmail.com <brogers31751@gmail.com> wrote:

    If you fund safe research that will yield incremental positive results,
    you will end up with a lot of safe research that just make incremental progress.

    It is a sign of the times
    that this is called 'disruptive science' nowadays.

    It is what all those 'great names' in the science history books did.
    But in those days thigs like that were still called it 'great advances',

    Jan

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  • From JTEM is my hero@21:1/5 to J. J. Lodder on Tue Jan 10 20:26:04 2023
    J. J. Lodder wrote:

    It is a sign of the times
    that this is called 'disruptive science' nowadays.

    It's brainwashing.

    During the Dubya Bush years there wasn't a single person to the
    left of Hitler that didn't know scientific funding is bullocks. That,
    If it didn't have an immediate military application, or the promise
    of great economic advancement then was at the mercy of
    politics. Period. Back then, politics meant "Don't piss off the
    creationists."

    There was a great movie made a ways back; "A Flock of Dodos."

    It was a documentary, and this destruction of real science was one
    of the topics...

    Of course, the very second Dubya left everyone just sort of agreed to
    forget what they knew... just of of pretend the funding was above
    reproach...

    If you want the money, bend the knee. Kiss the ring. Agree. Obey.

    Same if you want to get published.





    -- --

    https://jtem.tumblr.com/post/706096374252437504

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