On Thursday, December 2, 2010 at 11:53:25 PM UTC-5, John Watson wrote:

On Dec 2, 10:29 am, "John P. Ravilious" <ther...@aol.com> wrote:

On Dec 1, 10:04 pm, John Watson <watsonjo...@gmail.com> wrote:

On Dec 2, 9:26 am, "John P. Ravilious" <ther...@aol.com> wrote:

On Dec 1, 7:52 pm, "J.L.Fernandez Blanco" <jfernandezbla...@yahoo.com> wrote:

Hello,
According to Walter's biography in Wikipedia (yes, I know...), he would have been a son of John de Gray the Elder of Eaton in Norfolk and nephew of John de Grey (the Younger), Bishop of Norwich. For this statement they show as source: British History Online Archbishops of York (http://british-history.ac.uk/report.aspx?compid=8457), which says: "He was son of John and Hawisia de Grey of Rotherfield Greys, Oxon (Pat. Rolls 1225-32 p. 454; see also Comp. Peer. VI 150-1 n.); for his career, see Biog. Ox. II 807-8; DNB."
Then, for the uncle, John the Younger, they say he was was a younger son of Robert de Gray of Rotherfield Greys in Oxfordshire (without citation).
Has anything new surfaced about the parentage of Walter? AFAIR, until not long ago nothing was known about this topic.
Thanks,
JL

--------------------

Dear JL,

I am not aware of any documentary evidence providing the name of Walter de Grey's father. There is evidence that - whoever the Archbishop's father was - he was not the lord of Rotherfield. Also,
it is almost certain his name was not (de) Grey, unless adopted following his marriage.

There is record of a grant by King Henry III in which the Archbishop's mother is named, and which also indicates that
Rotherfield came from Eva de Grey (relationship not stated) to the Archbishop, who then granted it to his brother Robert. From the Calendar of Charter Rolls, dated at Windsor, 9 Mar 1239/40:

' Grant to Hawise, mother of W. archbishop of York, that she and her heirs and her men, and the men of her heirs, shall be quit of shires and hundreds and suit of shires and hundreds, aids of sheriffs,
reeves, and bailiffs, of view of frank-pledge and of murder, all which the king has also granted to Robert de Gray and his heirs for the land of Rutherefeld, which the said archbishop had of the gift of Eve de Gray, and gave to the said Robert.' [Cal. Charter Rolls, 11 Hen III,
p. 18, mem. 20]

As to the relationship of Walter de Grey to John de Grey, Bishop of Norwich, it is certain that John de Grey was the Archbishop's
uncle. However, he was the _maternal_ uncle of the Archbishop, and brother of Hawise de Grey. There was a charter of Hawise de Grey in favour of Oseney abbey in which she explicitly identified her son Robert and her brother the Bishop, and to which Archbishop Walter was
a witness:

' Hawisia de Grey vidua, pro animabus omnium antecessorum et consanguineorum, et precipue pro anima Johannis de Grey fratris mei quondam Norwicensis Episcopi, assensu Dni. Roberti de Grey filij et heredis mei, concessi et quantum ad patronam pertinet dedi Deo et Sce. Marie de Oseney et canonicis ibidem Deo servientibus ecclesiam de Cornewell ad donationem meam pertinentem in puram et perpetuam eleemosinam. Testibus Dno. Waltero de Grey, Wygorniensi Episcopus filio meo, &c.' [Blomefield, Norfok I:478, cites 'Mss. penes P. L. Norroy, p. 15, excerpt. e Cartis per Ric. St. George.']

NN de Grey
_______I________
I I
Hawise de John de
Grey = NN Grey
I Bp of
I Norwich
I
______I______________
I I I
Robert Walter I
ld of Archbp I
Rotherfield I
I
__________________I
I I
Eva Agnes
= William = NN
'Brito' d'Oilly

Should anyone have additional or corrective documentation that bears on these Grey matters, please advise.

Cheers,

John

Hi John,

For what it's worth, here's what ODNB has to say about Walter's family relationships:
"Gray, Walter de (d. 1255), archbishop of York, was the younger son of John de Gray of Rotherfield Greys, Oxfordshire, and his wife, Hawisia. His uncle, another John de Gray, was bishop of Norwich (1200–14), and
a favourite of King John. In the event Walter became the most
important member of an influential clerical family. His nephews, the brothers Henry and Walter de Gray, were to be promoted by him to canonries of York, and a third nephew, William de Langton of
Rotherfield Greys became first dean of York from about 1260 to 1279,
and then archbishop-elect, though papal opposition deprived him of the see. Walter was also connected to the Giffards of Boyton, Wiltshire,
one of whom, Walter Giffard, brother of Godfrey, bishop of Worcester, became bishop of Bath and Wells (1265–6) and subsequently archbishop
of York (1266–79)."
Roy Martin Haines, ‘Gray, Walter de (d. 1255)’, Oxford Dictionary of National Biography, Oxford University Press, 2004

Regards,

John- Hide quoted text -

- Show quoted text -

-----------------

Dear John,

Thanks for that.

Given what the charter of Hawise de Grey to Oseney indicates, I
think the assignment of a John de Grey as father of Archbp Walter is erroneous.

More likely - yet still short of documentation - I think that
John de Grey, bp of Norwich and his sister Hawise may have been
children of John de Grey and his wife Hawise (usually called Basset,
as yet undocumented). This would make Eve de Grey, wife of Ralph
Murdac, their sister; she would be an interesting candidate as the
grantor of Rotherfield, although the chronology needs a close look.

Cheers,

John

Hi John,
From memory (which gets worse over the years). Robert de Grey, holder
of Rotherfield in 1166, had two or possibly three younger brothers,
Anketil (II), William and probably Thomas. I would think that the more
likely candidates for the father of John de Grey bishop of Norwich and
his sister Hawise are either William or Thomas. Hawise married a Mr. somebody-or-other and had at least three children, Robert, Walter
(Abp. York) and Eve (married Wm. Brito). Her children took their
mother's name of de Grey - probably to stop the family name dying out
- her two sons, Robert and Walter being the only male heirs of Anketil
(I) de Grey who held Rotherfield at Domesday. Anketil (II)'s heir was
his granddaughter Eve, daughter of his son John, who married Ralph
Murdac. In this scenario - Robert and Walter de Grey would be the
first cousins of Eve Murdac.
Now if we could only work out who Mr. somebody-or-other was, the
picture would be complete.
Regards,
John

I came across this book that sorted out the Grey family. It makes sense to me. The New England Historical and Genealogical Register, Volume 76. It starts on Page 295.
https://books.google.com/books?id=zyhAAAAAYAAJ&newbks=1&newbks_redir=0&pg=PA298#v=onepage&q&f=false
Anschetil Grey had a son Richard.
Richard had a son Anschetil, who had a son John. John married Mabel. Their daughter Eve married first Ralph Murdac & had 2 daughters Alice and Beatrice. Eve married secondly Andrew Beauchamp. Eve & Andrew had a son John and 2 daughters Joan & Maud.
The above Richard also had a son Thomas. Thomas' sons were John Grey Bishop of Norwich & Unknown son who married Hawise. Mr. Unknown Grey & Hawise had two sons Walter Grey Archbishop of York & Robert.

Proof of John Grey's wife being Mabel-
In 1109 Henry I confirmed a grant to Eynsham abbey of the tithes of Dornford, Weaveley, and Cornwell by Anketil de Gray's son Richard. The mesne tenancy of Dornford remained in the Gray family, passing presumably to Richard's son Anketil and Anketil's
son John; the Mabel de Gray who had dower of a third of Dornford in 1195 was probably John's widow. The manor passed to John's daughter Eve de Gray, who held it in 1242. She was dead by 1246 and her heirs through her first husband, Ralph Murdac (d. by
1196), were Beatrice, widow of Robert Mauduit, and Alice, wife of Ralph Hareng; through her second husband, Andrew de Beauchamp (to whom she was married by 1198), her heirs were Joan, wife of Ernald de Boys, and Maud de Neville, represented in 1246 by
her son Jolland.
https://www.british-history.ac.uk/vch/oxon/vol11/pp259-285

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