ltlee1 <ltlee1@hotmail.com> wrote:

On Friday, January 20, 2023 at 3:03:39 PM UTC, A. Filip wrote:

[…]

Russia is far to big/important to "play against" *stupidly*, quite like PRC. >> West is very far away from playing a total war with Russia.

West collectively, Yes.
But harder to say concerning military unit or units going rogue. Just consider
headline like this "Ukraine Makes Birthday of Nazi Collaborator a National Holiday and Bans Book Critical of Anti-Semitic Leader."

Ukrainians, at least their political and military leadership, are
turning extremists.

Give the names or get lost. "The Details" DO make difference.
Do you enjoy foreigners giving (strong) opinions about Chiba with little knowledge about "(important) details"?

I am very far away from naming Stepan Bandera "a good guy" (the most
likely candidate [A]). Taking about him without a few "details" would make
him hero *for far too many Ukrainians* - I prefer to avoid such scenario
[ "I will frostbite my ears to spite my grandmother" ]
The "details" do not change very much *for me* but no indication of
being aware of them does not look as "reasonably impartial" [B].

[A] https://www.newsweek.com/ukraine-nazi-collaborator-birthday-holiday-anti-semitic-1272911

Ukraine Makes Birthday of Nazi Collaborator a National Holiday and
Bans Book Critical of Anti-Semitic Leader
; By Jason Lemon On 12/27/18 at 1:43 PM EST
[…] January 1 has now been set aside in the country to remember Stepan Bandera, the Jewish Telegraph Agency reported Thursday. […]
Earlier in December, Ukraine's State Committee on Television and Radio Broadcasting banned Swedish historian Anders Rydell's Book of
Thieves. The book critically analyzed the actions of Ukrainian
nationalist Symon Petliura, whose forces killed large numbers of Jews
in the early 20th century. Petilura was later killed by a Russian-born
Jew in Paris in 1929.[…]

[B] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Stepan_Bandera

[…] By the end of 1941 relations between Nazi Germany and the OUN-B
had soured to the point where a Nazi document dated 25 November 1941
stated that "the Bandera Movement is preparing a revolt in the Reichskommissariat which has as its ultimate aim the establishment of
an independent Ukraine. All functionaries of the Bandera Movement must
be arrested at once and, after thorough interrogation, are to be liquidated".[66]
In January 1942, Bandera was transferred to Sachsenhausen
concentration camp's special prison cell building (Zellenbau) for high-profile political prisoners […]

--
A. Filip : Big (Tech) Brother is watching you.
| Men use thought only to justify their wrong doings, and speech only
| to conceal their thoughts. (Voltaire)

--- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
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A. Filip, <news:anfi+dckrvcdr8f-n1k5@wp.eu>

ltlee1 <ltlee1@hotmail.com> wrote:

The "details" do not change very much *for me* but no indication of
being aware of them does not look as "reasonably impartial" [B].

[A] https://www.newsweek.com/ukraine-nazi-collaborator-birthday-holiday-anti-semitic-1272911

Ukraine Makes Birthday of Nazi Collaborator a National Holiday and
Bans Book Critical of Anti-Semitic Leader
; By Jason Lemon On 12/27/18 at 1:43 PM EST
[.] January 1 has now been set aside in the country to remember Stepan
Bandera, the Jewish Telegraph Agency reported Thursday. [.]
Earlier in December, Ukraine's State Committee on Television and Radio
Broadcasting banned Swedish historian Anders Rydell's Book of
Thieves. The book critically analyzed the actions of Ukrainian
nationalist Symon Petliura, whose forces killed large numbers of Jews
in the early 20th century. Petilura was later killed by a Russian-born
Jew in Paris in 1929.[.]

[B] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Stepan_Bandera

[.] By the end of 1941 relations between Nazi Germany and the OUN-B
had soured to the point where a Nazi document dated 25 November 1941
stated that "the Bandera Movement is preparing a revolt in the
Reichskommissariat which has as its ultimate aim the establishment of
an independent Ukraine. All functionaries of the Bandera Movement must
be arrested at once and, after thorough interrogation, are to be
liquidated".[66]
In January 1942, Bandera was transferred to Sachsenhausen
concentration camp's special prison cell building (Zellenbau) for
high-profile political prisoners [.]

Any nazism-like, any ultra nationalism is self-centric. Two differ-centric extremist movements of the kind may be naturally at odds or hostile toward
each other. It doesn't mean that if one is considered evil then another one needs to be necessarily considered good, so the fact that the German Nazis sought to somehow restrict the Banderist ones (even if the latter sought to mimic the former (while targeting different targets and pursuing different
end goals)) should be taken so.

And, as it was said few times before, all radically self-centric movements
can have only unstable and situational allies / fellows, - because due to
their ultra-selves they can not really share values (such movements usually
are branded as right-wing, although for "national socialism" kind the right- wing-ness may be disputable (but the latter is aside from the point here)).

Only those movements that are seeking to maintain universalist values, can
form more or less stable alliances. The present day Atlanticist politicians understand it well, that's why they're talking much about values. Another
thing is that their [true] values aren't truly universalist and their deeds contradict their rhetorical narratives.

--- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
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On Friday, January 20, 2023 at 8:04:35 PM UTC, A. Filip wrote:

ltlee1 wrote:

On Friday, January 20, 2023 at 3:03:39 PM UTC, A. Filip wrote:

[…]

Russia is far to big/important to "play against" *stupidly*, quite like PRC.
West is very far away from playing a total war with Russia.

West collectively, Yes.
But harder to say concerning military unit or units going rogue. Just consider
headline like this "Ukraine Makes Birthday of Nazi Collaborator a National Holiday and Bans Book Critical of Anti-Semitic Leader."

Ukrainians, at least their political and military leadership, are
turning extremists.

Give the names or get lost. "The Details" DO make difference.
Do you enjoy foreigners giving (strong) opinions about Chiba with little knowledge about "(important) details"?

I am very far away from naming Stepan Bandera "a good guy" (the most
likely candidate [A]). Taking about him without a few "details" would make him hero *for far too many Ukrainians* - I prefer to avoid such scenario
[ "I will frostbite my ears to spite my grandmother" ]
The "details" do not change very much *for me* but no indication of
being aware of them does not look as "reasonably impartial" [B].

[A] https://www.newsweek.com/ukraine-nazi-collaborator-birthday-holiday-anti-semitic-1272911

Ukraine Makes Birthday of Nazi Collaborator a National Holiday and
Bans Book Critical of Anti-Semitic Leader
; By Jason Lemon On 12/27/18 at 1:43 PM EST
[…] January 1 has now been set aside in the country to remember Stepan Bandera, the Jewish Telegraph Agency reported Thursday. […]
Earlier in December, Ukraine's State Committee on Television and Radio Broadcasting banned Swedish historian Anders Rydell's Book of
Thieves. The book critically analyzed the actions of Ukrainian
nationalist Symon Petliura, whose forces killed large numbers of Jews
in the early 20th century. Petilura was later killed by a Russian-born
Jew in Paris in 1929.[…]

[B] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Stepan_Bandera

[…] By the end of 1941 relations between Nazi Germany and the OUN-B
had soured to the point where a Nazi document dated 25 November 1941 stated that "the Bandera Movement is preparing a revolt in the Reichskommissariat which has as its ultimate aim the establishment of
an independent Ukraine. All functionaries of the Bandera Movement must
be arrested at once and, after thorough interrogation, are to be liquidated".[66]
In January 1942, Bandera was transferred to Sachsenhausen
concentration camp's special prison cell building (Zellenbau) for high-profile political prisoners […]

--

If you don't like "extremists", try Bandera cult followers.

"Stepan Bandera: Hero or Nazi collaborator?" https://www.dw.com/en/stepan-bandera-ukrainian-hero-or-nazi-collaborator/a-61842720

"Ukraine that Bandera wanted

The Bandera cult is an "expression of selective memory and politics of history," said Andreas
Umland, an expert at the Stockholm Center for Eastern European Studies. It is about remembering
that Bandera was a radical fighter for independence who served time in a Polish prison and a
German concentration camp and was murdered by the KGB, he told DW.

"What people do not remember is that both at the beginning and at the end of World War II, the
movement that Bandera led, the OUN, cooperated with the Third Reich for various reasons," Umland
said.

Experts have two explanations, said Umland. One group believes the cooperation was forced,
while others argue there was an ideological closeness. Both are true, said Grzegorz Rossolinski-Liebe,
a Bandera biographer and historian at the Free University of Berlin.

"Of course Bandera wanted a Ukrainian state, but he wanted a fascist state, an authoritarian state,
one where he would have been the leader," said Rossolinski-Liebe.

Both Umland and Rossolinski-Liebe point out another dark side in the history of the Bandera movement,
the involvement of OUN fighters in the murders of civilians, Jews and Poles, in the regions of Galicia and
Volhynia. However, they said Bandera personally had no part in the murders.

"The OUN joined the Ukrainian police, in 1941, and helped the Germans murder Jews in western Ukraine,"
said Rossolinski-Liebe, adding he had found no evidence that Bandera supported or condemned "ethnic
cleansing" or killing Jews and other minorities. It was, however, important that people from OUN and UPA
"identified with him," he said.

Hugely popular, despite controversial image

Bandera was not a "Nazi," but a "Ukrainian ultranationalist," Umland argued, saying Ukrainian nationalism
at the time was "not a copy of Nazism." Rossolinski-Liebe takes a different view, saying Bandera can be
called "a radical nationalist, a fascist."

--- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
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"Oleg Smirnov" <os333@netc.eu> wrote:

A. Filip, <news:anfi+dckrvcdr8f-n1k5@wp.eu>

ltlee1 <ltlee1@hotmail.com> wrote:

The "details" do not change very much *for me* but no indication of
being aware of them does not look as "reasonably impartial" [B].

[A]
https://www.newsweek.com/ukraine-nazi-collaborator-birthday-holiday-anti-semitic-1272911

Ukraine Makes Birthday of Nazi Collaborator a National Holiday and
Bans Book Critical of Anti-Semitic Leader
; By Jason Lemon On 12/27/18 at 1:43 PM EST
[.] January 1 has now been set aside in the country to remember Stepan
Bandera, the Jewish Telegraph Agency reported Thursday. [.]
Earlier in December, Ukraine's State Committee on Television and Radio
Broadcasting banned Swedish historian Anders Rydell's Book of
Thieves. The book critically analyzed the actions of Ukrainian
nationalist Symon Petliura, whose forces killed large numbers of Jews
in the early 20th century. Petilura was later killed by a Russian-born
Jew in Paris in 1929.[.]

[B] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Stepan_Bandera

[.] By the end of 1941 relations between Nazi Germany and the OUN-B
had soured to the point where a Nazi document dated 25 November 1941
stated that "the Bandera Movement is preparing a revolt in the
Reichskommissariat which has as its ultimate aim the establishment of
an independent Ukraine. All functionaries of the Bandera Movement must
be arrested at once and, after thorough interrogation, are to be
liquidated".[66]
In January 1942, Bandera was transferred to Sachsenhausen
concentration camp's special prison cell building (Zellenbau) for
high-profile political prisoners [.]

Any nazism-like, any ultra nationalism is self-centric. Two differ-centric extremist movements of the kind may be naturally at odds or hostile toward each other. It doesn't mean that if one is considered evil then another one needs to be necessarily considered good, so the fact that the German Nazis sought to somehow restrict the Banderist ones (even if the latter sought to mimic the former (while targeting different targets and pursuing different end goals)) should be taken so.

And, as it was said few times before, all radically self-centric movements can have only unstable and situational allies / fellows, - because due to their ultra-selves they can not really share values (such movements usually are branded as right-wing, although for "national socialism" kind the right- wing-ness may be disputable (but the latter is aside from the point here)).

Only those movements that are seeking to maintain universalist values, can form more or less stable alliances. The present day Atlanticist politicians understand it well, that's why they're talking much about values. Another thing is that their [true] values aren't truly universalist and their deeds contradict their rhetorical narratives.

Ukraine needs heroes. *Sadly* Bandera seems to be the best (fresh) fit
even if controversial+. Putin has turned the need to urgent+.
The road to hell is paved with good intentions.
From Russia perspective the trick (for western consumption) is to make
Bandera look bad without giving impression of being blinded by own
propaganda. It should not be (very) challenging.

I can assure you that Putin *will be* called ultra nationalist at
very least by some. So do not be careless with your "simplifications".

--
A. Filip : Big (Tech) Brother is watching you.
| "You, sir, are nothing but a pathetically lame salesdroid! I fart
| in your general direction!" (Randseed on #Linux)

--- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
* Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)

Oleg Smirnov, <news:tqf759$293ju$2@os.motzarella.org>

A. Filip, <news:anfi+dckrvcdr8f-n1k5@wp.eu>

[B] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Stepan_Bandera

[.] By the end of 1941 relations between Nazi Germany and the OUN-B
had soured to the point where a Nazi document dated 25 November 1941
stated that "the Bandera Movement is preparing a revolt in the
Reichskommissariat which has as its ultimate aim the establishment of
an independent Ukraine. All functionaries of the Bandera Movement must
be arrested at once and, after thorough interrogation, are to be
liquidated".[66]
In January 1942, Bandera was transferred to Sachsenhausen
concentration camp's special prison cell building (Zellenbau) for
high-profile political prisoners [.]

Any nazism-like, any ultra nationalism is self-centric. Two differ-centric extremist movements of the kind may be naturally at odds or hostile toward each other. It doesn't mean that if one is considered evil then another one needs to be necessarily considered good, so the fact that the German Nazis sought to somehow restrict the Banderist ones (even if the latter sought to mimic the former (while targeting different targets and pursuing different end goals)) should be taken so.

And, as it was said few times before, all radically self-centric movements can have only unstable and situational allies / fellows, - because due to their ultra-selves they can not really share values (such movements usually are branded as right-wing, although for "national socialism" kind the right- wing-ness may be disputable (but the latter is aside from the point here)).

Only those movements that are seeking to maintain universalist values, can form more or less stable alliances. The present day Atlanticist politicians understand it well, that's why they're talking much about values. Another thing is that their [true] values aren't truly universalist and their deeds contradict their rhetorical narratives.

By the way, the China's government presently also seeks to present its own universalist offer - with Chinese characteristics - in the form of Community
of Common Destiny <https://clck.ru/33KhXw>. The conception is not very specific, but this fact may be more good than bad. Once the USSR sought to offer a well-specific model, and it turned non-viable.

--- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
* Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)

A. Filip, <news:anfi+b2ehuh23pf-n1l6@wp.eu>

"Oleg Smirnov" <os333@netc.eu> wrote:

[B] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Stepan_Bandera

[.] By the end of 1941 relations between Nazi Germany and the OUN-B
had soured to the point where a Nazi document dated 25 November 1941
stated that "the Bandera Movement is preparing a revolt in the
Reichskommissariat which has as its ultimate aim the establishment of
an independent Ukraine. All functionaries of the Bandera Movement must >>>> be arrested at once and, after thorough interrogation, are to be
liquidated".[66]
In January 1942, Bandera was transferred to Sachsenhausen
concentration camp's special prison cell building (Zellenbau) for
high-profile political prisoners [.]

Any nazism-like, any ultra nationalism is self-centric. Two differ-centric >> extremist movements of the kind may be naturally at odds or hostile toward >> each other. It doesn't mean that if one is considered evil then another one >> needs to be necessarily considered good, so the fact that the German Nazis >> sought to somehow restrict the Banderist ones (even if the latter sought to >> mimic the former (while targeting different targets and pursuing different >> end goals)) should be taken so.

And, as it was said few times before, all radically self-centric movements >> can have only unstable and situational allies / fellows, - because due to
their ultra-selves they can not really share values (such movements usually >> are branded as right-wing, although for "national socialism" kind the
right- wing-ness may be disputable (but the latter is aside from the point >> here)).

Only those movements that are seeking to maintain universalist values, can >> form more or less stable alliances. The present day Atlanticist politicians >> understand it well, that's why they're talking much about values. Another
thing is that their [true] values aren't truly universalist and their deeds >> contradict their rhetorical narratives.

Ukraine needs heroes.

Speak for yourself.

And 'Ukraine' is not a single individual.

*Sadly* Bandera seems to be the best (fresh) fit
even if controversial+. Putin has turned the need to urgent+.
The road to hell is paved with good intentions.
From Russia perspective the trick (for western consumption) is to make Bandera look bad

It's not a *trick* and it doesn't *look* bad, - it's simply bad,
and those citizens of the post-Soviet Ukraine who couldn't accept
the Banderist cultism didn't care about "western consumption".

without giving impression of being blinded by own propaganda.

Filip seeks to retell the Atlanticist propaganda narratives that
are intended to bring to the simple idea that everything must be
acceptable simply because we dislike 'Putin' so much.

It should not be (very) challenging.

I can assure you that Putin *will be* called ultra nationalist at
very least by some. So do not be careless with your "simplifications".

For the Poland's Poles it may be natural to think in the terms of
tricks intended for one's "consumption", but this style of thinking
is alien to Russians, so your petty wisdoms are not welcome.

--- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
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