Historical facts:
- 1897: Thomson discovered the electron as a particle and proposed a
"plum pudding" model of the atom.
- 1899: Thomson (and others) measured the charge/mass ratio of the
electron (using Lorentz force): 6.33E+17 esu/g
- 1900: Planck calculated the charge of the electron, hence its mass
(using Avogrado): e = 4.69E-10 esu ( g^1/2 cm^3/2 s^-1).
- 1900: Wilhem Wien theorized that the Hydrogen ion contained a
fundamental positive charge (named proton in 1917 by Rutherford), when experimenting with canal rays. His work was the basis for the discovery
of the proton by Rutherford in 1917, after he came in 1911 with his
"solar system structure" of atoms, mostly composed of void.
- 1913: Millikan measured again the charge of the electron, being
similar to the value calculated by Planck in 1900.
- 1917: Rutherford confirmed the existence of the proton (he named it)
and verified early calculations about being 1,836 times more massive
than the electron.
- 1917-1918: Many scientists estimated the radius of the proton being
1,000 larger than that of the electron, using charge/mass relationships.
The radius of the proton was estimated as being about 10^-13 cm, from
which it was derived that the radius of the electron was about 10^-16
cm. The classic formula R = e^2/E was used AGAIN, where E is the energy
of the electric field. This formula STILL IS VALID TODAY, only that it's
used with MKS units instead of esu units.
- Around 1920: The use of E=mc^2 was introduced to calculate the rest
energy of the electron as being 0.511 MeV. So R = e^2/(mc^2) FORCED PHYSICISTS TO ADOPT/BELIEVE that the radius of the electron was about 2.8E-13cm, which is now known as the CLASSICAL ELECTRON RADIUS
(normalized by NIST and many other bodies worldwide).
This proposal CONTRADICTED what experiments show (by then and in decades
to come) that the radius of the electron IS AT LEAST about 10^-18 m. The formula suited well with the radius of the proton being about 10^-15 m,
which was used until early 1960s, when the Standard Model of Elementary Particles (SMEP) demanded that only the electron was a fundamental
particle. All the data about radius of protons and neutrons WERE
ELIMINATED from databases worldwide. Only the Classical Electron Radius
still remain, but only for some calculations, as it's not proposed as
THE REAL RADIUS.
- 1919-1924: It was widely accepted that the electron rotated itself, creating a magnetic momentum that explained phenomena like the Zeeman
effect (splitting of spectral lines in a magnetic field). Kronig,
Uhlenbeck, and Goudsmit realized that the classical model of a spinning electron was UNTENABLE because it implied velocities FASTER THAN LIGHT, CONTRADICTING RELATIVITY.
- 1924-1925: The physical units of the electron's spin that created the magnetic momentum WERE DISCARDED by physicists like Heisenberg and
Pauli, because IT WAS AGAINST RELATIVITY. Instead, they proposed that
SPIN was a quantum quantity with no equivalence with classic physics.
Hence, the idea of rotation was dismissed, and fractional values of +1/2
and -1/2 were INVENTED to quantify the magnetic momentum of the
electron. This idea was extended to any other particle in the next
decades.
In 1925, Pauli INVENTED the Exclusion Principle, which states that no
two electrons in an atom can have the same set of quantum numbers. He received a Nobel Prize for this proposal.
- 1928: Dirac introduced his relativistic theory, by which the electron
spin was incorporated as an intrinsic property, without requiring it to
be a spinning sphere. Hence, the spin describes behaviors in magnetic
fields and interactions, not being a physical motion.
- 1930-1960: QFT and QED adopted the model of the electron being A
POINT-LIKE PARTICLE, with NO PHYSICAL SIZE.
- 1960-2025: The radius of about 10^-18 m for the electron EMERGED AGAIN
by measurements of its electric dipole moment (EDM). An electric dipole moment (EDM) is a measure of the separation of positive and negative
charges within a particle. If an electron had an EDM, it would imply
that its charge distribution is not perfectly symmetric, meaning it
would have a "shape" that deviates from a perfect sphere.
2025: The current best upper limit for the electron's EDM is on the
order of 10^-29 electron centimeters (e cm), corresponding to A PERFECT SPHERE with a radius of 10^-18 m. But physicists INSISTS in that this IS
NOT a real radius, and is valid ONLY to explain the EDM measurements.
AS OF TODAY, RADIUS, SHAPE AND SPIN OF ELECTRONS IS UNDETERMINED
(UNKNOWN). Each theory (QM, QFT, QED,...) adopt values that are useful
to validate each theory, but the numbers used ARE IN CONFLICT, when the different theories are compared.
AS IT CAN BE SEEN FOR THE LAST 130 YEARS, PHYSICS IS MOSTLY A FARCE.
AS IT CAN BE SEEN FOR THE LAST 130 YEARS, PHYSICS IS MOSTLY A FARCE.
Yep, as proof radio, atomic bombs, hydrogen bombs, transistors,
computers,
Just anecdotic, but a sample of idiocy and plagiarism from Lorentz 1904.
Remember the part of the electron in the 1905 paper? A slowly
accelerated charged and perfectly spherical ball that had two masses: longitudinal and traversal.
Also dismissing the energy employed in moving the electron from absolute rest.
You can't get a more idiotic plagiarism of the ideas that Lorentz held
for 12 years to explain the fail of the MM experiment.
Relativity is a pseudoscience.
I forgot to add that, as E = e^2/R (esu units), in quantum physics the Classical Electron Radius of about 10^-15 m is used, IN ORDER TO obtain
0.511 MeV.
Length contraction is the most important pillar of relativity,Why does relativity employ length contraction to disprove MMX when it
originated in the efforts of Lorentz to disprove the MM experiment.
It's, after all, an inseparable outcome of Lorentz transforms, along
with time dilation.
How come this stupid part of Lorentz transforms has been abandoned, yet
the twin formula for time dilation is accepted? Both emerged from a
single mathematical framework in 1904/1905 relativity.
If one of them has been dismissed (never proved), why its associated
formula for time has been accepted?
It's an example of hypocrisy in physics, and also a sample of the pseudoscience that relativity is.
Consider applying length contraction to an electron moving at 0.99999 c.
It should be perceived as a flat disk. This concept caused that Lorentz
(and Einstein's plagiarism) calculated longitudinal and traversal
masses.
What is the conclusion? That the 1905 SR paper has only 4 pages out of
26 with some perdurable concepts, as time passed? Or better yet: SR is
only ONE of the two Lorentz transforms?
Stupid it is, no matter from which angle you approach to that fucking
paper.
Length contraction is the most important pillar of relativity,"I attach special importance to the view of geometry which I have just
originated in the efforts of Lorentz to disprove the MM experiment.
It's, after all, an inseparable outcome of Lorentz transforms, along
with time dilation.
How come this stupid part of Lorentz transforms has been abandoned, yet
the twin formula for time dilation is accepted? Both emerged from a
single mathematical framework in 1904/1905 relativity.
If one of them has been dismissed (never proved), why its associated
formula for time has been accepted?
It's an example of hypocrisy in physics, and also a sample of the pseudoscience that relativity is.
Consider applying length contraction to an electron moving at 0.99999 c.
It should be perceived as a flat disk. This concept caused that Lorentz
(and Einstein's plagiarism) calculated longitudinal and traversal
masses.
What is the conclusion? That the 1905 SR paper has only 4 pages out of
26 with some perdurable concepts, as time passed? Or better yet: SR is
only ONE of the two Lorentz transforms?
Stupid it is, no matter from which angle you approach to that fucking
paper.
Length contraction is the most important pillar of relativity,
originated in the efforts of Lorentz to disprove the MM experiment.
It's, after all, an inseparable outcome of Lorentz transforms, along
with time dilation.
How come this stupid part of Lorentz transforms has been abandoned, yet
the twin formula for time dilation is accepted? Both emerged from a
single mathematical framework in 1904/1905 relativity.
If one of them has been dismissed (never proved), why its associated
formula for time has been accepted?
It's an example of hypocrisy in physics, and also a sample of the pseudoscience that relativity is.
Consider applying length contraction to an electron moving at 0.99999 c.
It should be perceived as a flat disk. This concept caused that Lorentz
(and Einstein's plagiarism) calculated longitudinal and traversal
masses.
What is the conclusion? That the 1905 SR paper has only 4 pages out of
26 with some perdurable concepts, as time passed? Or better yet: SR is
only ONE of the two Lorentz transforms?
Stupid it is, no matter from which angle you approach to that fucking
paper.
Do you read what you write?
What kind of senile imbecile are you?
I insist in that you have to give up posting here, after 3 decades, and
start doing gardening. Also, invest most of your time watching how
plants grow.
You are too old to keep your narrative of the relativistic cult, and
it's PAINFULLY EMBARRASSING for others to watch how your brain degrades
at an
increasing pace, Paul.
Read this STUPIDITY that I quote from your shitty post:
Paul B. Andersen wrote:
**************************************************************************** >> All but morons should be able to understand the following:
An observer's speed relative to the observed object can't
affect the properties of the observed object in any way.
But the observer's speed relative to the observed object can affect
the observer's measurements of the properties of the observed object.
Think about it. Obvious, no?
According to the Lorentz transform will an observer _measure_
the length of a moving rod to be shorter than its proper length,
and she will _measure_ the rate of a moving clock to be slower
than its proper rate.
But this does obviously not mean that the moving rod has changed
its proper length, or that the proper rate of the clock has changed.
Due to her speed relative to the observed objects, her measurements
are distorted.
****************************************************************************
You made a mess with your word's salad. It doesn't make the slightest
sense.
Poor Paul. I sincerely pity you.
On Tue, 18 Mar 2025 17:04:53 +0000, rhertz wrote:
Paul B. Andersen wrote:
****************************************************************************
All but morons should be able to understand the following:
An observer's speed relative to the observed object can't
affect the properties of the observed object in any way.
LIKE ITS LENGTH, TIME LAPSES, MASS? OF COURSE NOT, IMBECILE. AND THIS IS
WHY I WROTE THAT YOUR COMMENT IS BEYOND IDIOCY.
affectBut the observer's speed relative to the observed object can
object.the observer's measurements of the properties of the observed
ANOTHER IDIOTIC COMMENT: YOU CAN'T MEASURE REMOTELY WHAT HAPPENS ON THE
FRAME THAT'S MOVING WRT THE OBSERVER AT RELATIVE REST.
IT'S JUST WHAT A COUPLE OF EQUATIONS TELL YOU THAT YOU MUST PERCEIVE
SUCH NON-SENSE.
THAT'S WHY RELATIVITY IS A PSEUDOSCIENCE, DEVELOPED FOR ASSHOLES LIKE
YOU SO YOU CAN PLAY WITH THIS SHIT AS A HOBBY FOR MORE THAN 30 YEARS,
ONLINE.
Think about it. Obvious, no?
OBVIOUS IN YOUR DEFORMED, INDOCTRINATED MIND. WHICH OTHER
PSEUDOSCIENCE/CULT DO YOU SUPPORT? I BET THAT RELATIVITY IS ONE OF MANY
IN YOUR FRAGILE, GULLIBLE MIND.
According to the Lorentz transform will an observer _measure_
the length of a moving rod to be shorter than its proper length,
and she will _measure_ the rate of a moving clock to be slower
than its proper rate.
changed.But this does obviously not mean that the moving rod has changed
its proper length, or that the proper rate of the clock has
measurementsDue to her speed relative to the observed objects, her
are distorted.
MORE BULLSHIT NOT WORTHY TO COMMENT.
On Tue, 18 Mar 2025 17:04:53 +0000, rhertz wrote:
Paul B. Andersen wrote:
****************************************************************************
All but morons should be able to understand the following:
An observer's speed relative to the observed object can't
affect the properties of the observed object in any way.
LIKE ITS LENGTH, TIME LAPSES, MASS? OF COURSE NOT, IMBECILE. AND THIS IS
WHY
I WROTE THAT YOUR COMMENT IS BEYOND IDIOCY.
But the observer's speed relative to the observed object can affect
the observer's measurements of the properties of the observed object.
ANOTHER IDIOTIC COMMENT: YOU CAN'T MEASURE REMOTELY WHAT HAPPENS ON THE
FRAME THAT'S MOVING WRT THE OBSERVER AT RELATIVE REST. IT'S JUST WHAT A COUPLE OF EQUATIONS TELL YOU THAT YOU MUST PERCEIVE SUCH NON-SENSE.
THAT'S WHY RELATIVITY IS A PSEUDOSCIENCE, DEVELOPED FOR ASSHOLES LIKE
YOU SO YOU CAN PLAY WITH THIS SHIT AS A HOBBY FOR MORE THAN 30 YEARS,
ONLINE.
Think about it. Obvious, no?
OBVIOUS IN YOUR DEFORMED, INDOCTRINATED MIND. WHICH OTHER
PSEUDOSCIENCE/CULT DO YOU SUPPORT? I BET THAT RELATIVITY IS ONE OF MANY
IN YOUR FRAGILE, GULLIBLE MIND.
According to the Lorentz transform will an observer _measure_
the length of a moving rod to be shorter than its proper length,
and she will _measure_ the rate of a moving clock to be slower
than its proper rate.
But this does obviously not mean that the moving rod has changed
its proper length, or that the proper rate of the clock has changed.
MORE BULLSHIT NOT WORTHY TO COMMENT.
****************************************************************************
On Tue, 18 Mar 2025 19:31:31 +0000, gharnagel wrote:
On Tue, 18 Mar 2025 17:13:45 +0000, rhertz wrote:
THIS ISLIKE ITS LENGTH, TIME LAPSES, MASS? OF COURSE NOT, IMBECILE. AND
WHY I WROTE THAT YOUR COMMENT IS BEYOND IDIOCY.
It made perfect sense to me.
THEANOTHER IDIOTIC COMMENT: YOU CAN'T MEASURE REMOTELY WHAT HAPPENS ON
FRAME THAT'S MOVING WRT THE OBSERVER AT RELATIVE REST.
Funny, I thought it's being done all the time on drones and space
probes.
IT'S JUST WHAT A COUPLE OF EQUATIONS TELL YOU THAT YOU MUST PERCEIVE
SUCH NON-SENSE.
The equations help us to understand what is being measured. And Paul points out that a 1.000 GHz signal generated by a moving observer is received at 1.001 GHz. This is explained quite easily by the Doppler equation (the RELATIVISTIC version if the stationary observer wants a really, really accurate measurement).
LIKETHAT'S WHY RELATIVITY IS A PSEUDOSCIENCE, DEVELOPED FOR ASSHOLES
YEARS,YOU SO YOU CAN PLAY WITH THIS SHIT AS A HOBBY FOR MORE THAN 30
ONLINE.
Paul, you're right. Hertz can't get through a post without profanity
:-)
MANYOBVIOUS IN YOUR DEFORMED, INDOCTRINATED MIND. WHICH OTHER PSEUDOSCIENCE/CULT DO YOU SUPPORT? I BET THAT RELATIVITY IS ONE OF
IN YOUR FRAGILE, GULLIBLE MIND.
Hertz seems to be the one with a deformed self-indoctrinated mind
(that's the worst kind).
MORE BULLSHIT NOT WORTHY TO COMMENT.
You mean like Paul's explanation of a 1.000 GHz signal sent from a
moving observer being received at 1.001 GHz? No wonder Hertz wants
to forget about that little gem that destroys his whole diatribe.
And with a name like, HERTZ, too :-)
Of course that you support Paul's shit (profanity here).
Also support the widely published daily delay of (45-7) usec that
comes from Schwarzschild applied to GPS. You HAVE TO, BECAUSE YOUR
CULT OBLIGES YOU AND CRITICIZING THE SHIT IS PUNISHED WITH "MORTE
CIVILE" IN YOUR PAGAN CHURCH.
Not even one fucking single time the change in frequency has been
measured,
because it is PERCEPTUAL, and Lorentz transforms force you to
accept a MATHEMATICAL outcome. Not a physical reality, just a
MATHEMATICAL result.
proved." -- Galileo Galilei
But mathematics is not physics,
and this can be shown also within QM.
Read my post above about THE PERCEPTION of what one electron is, because Schrödinger wrote a beautiful equation making electrons behave as WAVES.
Why don't you study Heisenberg's Matrix Mechanics, where there are no
waves to describe electron orbitals?
Of course you can't, because you know shit about matrixes,
as 99.99% of the physicists of that epoch, who were more "comfy" with
waves.
On Tue, 18 Mar 2025 20:25:49 +0000, rhertz wrote:
On Tue, 18 Mar 2025 19:31:31 +0000, gharnagel wrote:
THIS IS
On Tue, 18 Mar 2025 17:13:45 +0000, rhertz wrote:
LIKE ITS LENGTH, TIME LAPSES, MASS? OF COURSE NOT, IMBECILE. AND
THEWHY I WROTE THAT YOUR COMMENT IS BEYOND IDIOCY.
It made perfect sense to me.
ANOTHER IDIOTIC COMMENT: YOU CAN'T MEASURE REMOTELY WHAT HAPPENS ON
LIKEFRAME THAT'S MOVING WRT THE OBSERVER AT RELATIVE REST.
Funny, I thought it's being done all the time on drones and space
probes.
IT'S JUST WHAT A COUPLE OF EQUATIONS TELL YOU THAT YOU MUST PERCEIVE
SUCH NON-SENSE.
The equations help us to understand what is being measured. And Paul
points out that a 1.000 GHz signal generated by a moving observer is
received at 1.001 GHz. This is explained quite easily by the Doppler
equation (the RELATIVISTIC version if the stationary observer wants a
really, really accurate measurement).
THAT'S WHY RELATIVITY IS A PSEUDOSCIENCE, DEVELOPED FOR ASSHOLES
YEARS,YOU SO YOU CAN PLAY WITH THIS SHIT AS A HOBBY FOR MORE THAN 30
MANYONLINE.
Paul, you're right. Hertz can't get through a post without profanity
:-)
OBVIOUS IN YOUR DEFORMED, INDOCTRINATED MIND. WHICH OTHER
PSEUDOSCIENCE/CULT DO YOU SUPPORT? I BET THAT RELATIVITY IS ONE OF
IN YOUR FRAGILE, GULLIBLE MIND.
Hertz seems to be the one with a deformed self-indoctrinated mind
(that's the worst kind).
MORE BULLSHIT NOT WORTHY TO COMMENT.
You mean like Paul's explanation of a 1.000 GHz signal sent from a
moving observer being received at 1.001 GHz? No wonder Hertz wants
to forget about that little gem that destroys his whole diatribe.
And with a name like, HERTZ, too :-)
Of course that you support Paul's shit (profanity here).
I only support what I have determined the way the world actually works.
I do this by studying EXPERIMENTAL EVIDENCE and adjusting my belief
system to agree with that, rather then having a frozen belief system
like certain people in this "discussion" group.
"Try being informed instead of just opinionated." -- Anon.
Also support the widely published daily delay of (45-7) usec that
comes from Schwarzschild applied to GPS. You HAVE TO, BECAUSE YOUR
CULT OBLIGES YOU AND CRITICIZING THE SHIT IS PUNISHED WITH "MORTE
CIVILE" IN YOUR PAGAN CHURCH.
I support it because it has been measured:
Read this statement:
--------------------
An observer's speed relative to the observed object can't
affect the properties of the observed object in any way.
But the observer's speed relative to the observed object can affect
the observer's measurements of the properties of the observed object.
On Wed, 19 Mar 2025 0:58:28 +0000, rhertz wrote:
On Tue, 18 Mar 2025 21:42:44 +0000, gharnagel wrote:
<snip>
I only support what I have determined the way the world actuallyworks.
I do this by studying EXPERIMENTAL EVIDENCE and adjusting my belief
system to agree with that, rather then having a frozen belief system
like certain people in this "discussion" group.
YOUR "EXPERIMENTAL EVIDENCE" IS JUST BULLSHIT (Warning: mild profanity
here).
First of all, it's not "my" experimental evidence, it's experiments
performed by scientists, usually MUCH smarter than you or me. That
doesn't mean that they're infallible. They make mistakes and I've
caught them at it. However, dismissing ALL experimental evidence, as
YOU do, is demented nonsense.
On Tue, 18 Mar 2025 21:42:44 +0000, gharnagel wrote:
<snip>
I only support what I have determined the way the world actuallyworks.
I do this by studying EXPERIMENTAL EVIDENCE and adjusting my belief
system to agree with that, rather then having a frozen belief system
like certain people in this "discussion" group.
YOUR "EXPERIMENTAL EVIDENCE" IS JUST BULLSHIT (Warning: mild profanity
here).
Your belief is trapped in circular and fallacious logic. Here is why:
- The "evidence" is the result of theoretical calculations, not
measurements.
- Suppose that the time of the onboard Cs clock is measured by
accumulating counts of cycles of the 10.23 Mhz master TCXO clock.
This, to accumulate pulses with a period of 97.7517 nsec during
86,400 sec, requires an onboard digital counter displaying
883,872,000,000 counts (12 digits). Such data, at the end of the
24 hours period MUST be sent down to Earth station, where a twin
Cs clock is also counting pulses in sync with the onboard Cs
clock.
Will a comparison differ in 389 LOST PULSES (38 usec)?
I don't think so and even less that such ONLY SOLUTION to the
problem had even implemented to prove the [severe profanity deleted]) relativity.
in 1977. If you think so, you are an imbecile beyond redemption.
- The calculation of the 38 usec/day REQUIRES A THEORETICAL
SEPARATION of GR and SR effects using Schwarzschild.
It's the same crap that in the Hafele-Keating 1972 experiment,
where data for SR and GR were calculated theoretically.
- The ALLEGED EFFECT of the 7 us/day due to SR are MISCALCULATED using
Schwarzschild, because this alleged effect MANIFEST in rectilinear
trajectories, NOT IN NON-INERTIAL TRAJECTORIES OF AN ELLIPTIC ORBIT!!!
I left this here because I'm tired of throwing FACTS on the table.
You will rationalize and negate what I wrote.
This is enough for me. Relativity IS A FARCE, A PSEUDOSCIENCE, A CULT.
"Try being informed instead of just opinionated." -- Anon.
Not even one [Asinine behavior deleted] single time the change
in frequency has been measured,
Denial of reality is a mental disorder.
<snip>
I'll just focus on a couple of things that your "BRAIN" fails to
distinguish.
1) In sync means that both Cs clocks start measuring 1 day (86,400 sec)
by signaling both with an EM beep (could be through an encoded laser
shot,
which moves at c speed, you know?).
2) I, specifically and with details, wrote that each pulse of both
master clocks at 10.23 Mhz HAS TO BE ACCUMULATED IN 12 DIGIT COUNTERS!
Hard to understand for you?.
Once the lapse is finished, the GPS satellite TRANSMIT CODIFIED
INFORMATION OF ITS 12 DIGIT COUNTER, while at the same time the Earth's counter information is stored for comparison.
THE FREQUENCY OF THE CARRIER THAT TRANSMIT THE DATA IS IRRELEVANT,
BECAUSE ONLY THE TRANSMITTED INFORMATION IS WHAT IS WORTH.
3) The general Schwarzschild solution (the only one used by retarded relativists) CAN'T PROVIDE SEPARATE RESULTS FOR SR AND GR. Because of
that,
the result IS SPLIT in two parts (GR delay and SR delay). GR result is a function ONLY of the average height of the satellite, assuming circular orbits.
BUT, the SR result IS FALSE/FALLACIOUS, because the motion of the
satellite IS NOT INERTIAL. It contains a component of acceleration due
to its elliptic orbit.
THEREFORE, the 7 usec that result from the SR part are completely FALSE
and don't verify the domain of applicability of the 1905 SR CRAP!
Do you understand now, imbecile? (sorry for the profanity, but it
suits).
I can't explain it better than that for a "human" being. My dog,
sitting by me, is approving the explanation. A fucking (sorry) dog
digs it, but you can't?
Go out to make gardening with Paul. You are way to indoctrinated to
think openly and clearly. YOU ARE A FUCKING (sorry) MENTAL SLAVE OF THE CULT'S NARRATIVE, like Paul is.
I'm not. I don't give a fuck about EVERYTHING WRITTEN AND PUBLISHED in
the last 100 years. I read, REASON FREELY and then adopt a position
without BIASES OF ANY KIND.
You could try to think freely too.
On Wed, 19 Mar 2025 16:16:47 +0000, rhertz wrote:
I'll just focus on a couple of things that your "BRAIN" fails to
distinguish.
1) In sync means that both Cs clocks start measuring 1 day (86,400 sec)
by signaling both with an EM beep (could be through an encoded laser
shot,
which moves at c speed, you know?).
Oh, how do YOU know they travel at c? The satellites are MOVING, you know. Why would you believe the signal from the satellite travels at
c?
But given that c were constant, then they would use EINSTEIN
synchronization to synchronize the clocks,
On Tue, 18 Mar 2025 21:42:44 +0000, gharnagel wrote:
<snip>
I only support what I have determined the way the world actually works.
I do this by studying EXPERIMENTAL EVIDENCE and adjusting my belief
system to agree with that, rather then having a frozen belief system
like certain people in this "discussion" group.
YOUR "EXPERIMENTAL EVIDENCE" IS JUST BULLSHIT (Warning: mild profanity
here).
Your belief is trapped in circular and fallacious logic. Here is why:
- The "evidence" is the result of theoretical calculations, not
measurements.
- Suppose that the time of the onboard Cs clock is measured by
accumulating
counts of cycles of the 10.23 Mhz master TCXO clock. This, to
accumulate
pulses with a period of 97.7517 nsec during 86,400 sec, requires an onboard
digital counter displaying 883,872,000,000 counts (12 digits). Such
data,
at the end of the 24 hours period MUST be sent down to Earth station, where
a twin Cs clock is also counting pulses in sync with the onboard Cs
clock.
Will a comparison differ in 389 LOST PULSES (38 usec)?
I don't think so and even less that such ONLY SOLUTION to the problem
had
even implemented to prove the fucking (WARNING: severe profanity) relativity
in 1977. If you think so, you are an imbecile beyond redemption.
- The calculation of the 38 usec/day REQUIRES A THEORETICAL SEPARATION
of GR
and SR effects using Schwarzschild. It's the same crap that in the
Hafele-
Keating 1972 experiment, where data for SR and GR were calculated
theoretically.
- The ALLEGED EFFECT of the 7 us/day due to SR are MISCALCULATED using
Schwarzschild, because this alleged effect MANIFEST in rectilinear
trajectories, NOT IN NON-INERTIAL TRAJECTORIES OF AN ELLIPTIC ORBIT!!!
I left this here because I'm tired of throwing FACTS on the table. You
will rationalize and negate what I wrote.
"At the time of launch of the first NTS-2 satellite (June 1977), which
contained the first Cesium clock to be placed in orbit, there were some
who doubted that relativistic effects were real. [Like certain reality-
deniers who frequent this group] A frequency synthesizer was built
into the satellite clock system so that after launch, if in fact the
rate of the clock in its final orbit was that predicted by GR, then the
synthesizer could be turned on bringing the clock to the coordinate
rate necessary for operation. The atomic clock was first operated for
about 20 days to measure its clock rate before turning on the synthe-
sizer. The frequency measured during that interval was +442.5 parts
in 10^12 faster than clocks on the ground; if left uncorrected this
would have resulted in timing errors of about 38,000 nanoseconds per
day." -- Neil Ashby
http://www.leapsecond.com/history/Ashby-Relativity.htm
Not even one fucking single time the change in frequency has been
measured,
Denial of reality is a mental disorder.
<snip>
- The calculation of the 38 usec/day REQUIRES A THEORETICAL SEPARATION
of GR
and SR effects using Schwarzschild. It's the same crap that in the
Hafele-
Keating 1972 experiment, where data for SR and GR were calculated
theoretically.
- The ALLEGED EFFECT of the 7 us/day due to SR are MISCALCULATED using
Schwarzschild, because this alleged effect MANIFEST in rectilinear
trajectories, NOT IN NON-INERTIAL TRAJECTORIES OF AN ELLIPTIC ORBIT!!!
FACT: The measurements in 1977 _proved_ that the proper time τ₁
of the unadjusted clock in NTS-2 advanced faster than
It's all GR.
See:
https://paulba.no/pdf/Clock_rate.pdf
This is what GR predicts, and your opinion is worthless,
The other imbecile wrote that BOTH Cs clocks are locally running at 10,230,000.000000 Hz. But THIS IS NOT WHAT RELATIVISTS CLAIM.
They claim that the onboard TCXO master clock was tuned to
10,229,999.995430 Hz, with a difference of 0.00457 Hz wrt the
Earth'c clock.
Clock on Earth station: accumulates 883,872,000,000 pulses in 86400 sec
(1 day).
Clock on GPS SV: accumulates 883,871,999,605 pulses in 86400 sec (1
day).
The difference digital counters would register is of 395 pulses which,
with a
period of 97.7517106549365 ns gives a daily difference of
-38.5970696442754 us, which is what relativists claim as the "error"
between both clocks.
The STUPID CLAIM OF RELATIVISTS is that the frequency L1 (1575.42 Mhz),
which is GENERATED BY MULTIPLYING THE MASTER FREQUENCY OF 10.23 Mhz by EXACTLY 154 is what ALLOWS THAT SUCH CARRIER REACHES EARTH AS IF IT WAS GENERATED BY THE ONBOARD Cs CLOCK WORKING AT 10,229,999.995430 Hz,
creating an L1 carrier at the GPS SV of 1,575,419,999.29622 Hz.
When that GPS carrier reaches Earth, it has been shifted (by the
mathemagics of relativity) to EXACTLY 1,575,412 Hz = 10,230,000 Hz x
154.
Dou you understood what I wrote above, imbecile?
Relativists CLAIM FOR 50 YEARS that when they TURNED ON the correction
on the onboard master TCXO, lowering the frequency by 0.00457 Hz, they COMPENSATED RELATIVISTIC EFFECTS ON THE ORBITING CS clock and associated higher frequencies.
And that IS ABSOLUTELY FALSE, HAS NOT BEEN PROVEN NOR IN THE '70s
NEITHER IN THE LAST 50 YEARS, BECAUSE IT'S ABSOLUTELY DECEIVING, A
FUCKING LIE.
If it was TRUE, ask them to publicly show the downloaded DIGITAL COUNT
OF PULSES of the orbiting TCXO, to fact-check with the associated count
of the clock at the Earth station.
Now, asshole (sorry for the profanity), PROVE ME WRONG.
On Wed, 19 Mar 2025 21:38:48 +0000, rhertz wrote:
The other imbecile wrote that BOTH Cs clocks are locally running at
10,230,000.000000 Hz. But THIS IS NOT WHAT RELATIVISTS CLAIM.
Yes, it is. Rather, that's what they were running at before the
synthesizer was activated:
"The atomic clock was first operated for about 20 days to measure its
clock rate before turning on the synthesizer.
Supposing relativity (and Lorentz aether theory)
had never been thought of, that is just what engineers would have done:
apply an empirical correction for some mysterious non-understood effect.
Of course someone would have invented the correct theory to go with it,
after which it would no longer be mysterious.
Becoming engineering is what happens eventually
to all obviously correct scientific theories,
like general relativity: they are routinely applied,
to make things that -just work-.
Den 19.03.2025 01:58, skrev rhertz:
On Tue, 18 Mar 2025 21:42:44 +0000, gharnagel wrote:
<snip>
I only support what I have determined the way the world actually works.
I do this by studying EXPERIMENTAL EVIDENCE and adjusting my belief
system to agree with that, rather then having a frozen belief system
like certain people in this "discussion" group.
YOUR "EXPERIMENTAL EVIDENCE" IS JUST BULLSHIT (Warning: mild profanity here).
Your belief is trapped in circular and fallacious logic. Here is why:
- The "evidence" is the result of theoretical calculations, not measurements.
I suppose you are talking about the GPS.
Below gharnagel has explained that the rate of an uncorrected
was measured for 40 days and found to be fast.
I will add one important thing, though.
It is obviously impossible to measure the frequency of the signal
from the ground, the Doppler shift is many order of magnitude
bigger than the GR correction so that was not what was done..
The SV is transmitting its time, and there are a number of
monitoring stations that can read what time of the SV clock.
https://paulba.no/paper/Ashby.pdf https://paulba.no/paper/Initial_results_of_GPS_satellite_1977.pdf
The reading of the SV clock was compared to the master clock.
When the uncorrected clock had run for 6 day's it was 229.4 ?s
ahead of the master clock, that's 38.2 ?s/day or (1 + 442.5e-12)
too fast.
FACT: The measurements in 1977 _proved_ that the proper time ??
of the unadjusted clock in NTS-2 advanced faster than
the proper time ?? of the clock on the ground, and the difference
was d??/d?? = (1 + 4.425e-10)
GR predicts d??/d?? = (1 + 4.4647e-10), GR confirmed within less than 1%
Close to 50 years operation of the GPS has confirmed GR to much
better precision.
You have been told this many times, but you seem to believe
that you cam make facts go away by calling them BULLSHIT.
But facts won't go away, so you are only making a fool of yourself
by denying their existence.
- Suppose that the time of the onboard Cs clock is measured by
accumulating
counts of cycles of the 10.23 Mhz master TCXO clock. This, to
accumulate
pulses with a period of 97.7517 nsec during 86,400 sec, requires an onboard
digital counter displaying 883,872,000,000 counts (12 digits). Such
data,
at the end of the 24 hours period MUST be sent down to Earth station, where
a twin Cs clock is also counting pulses in sync with the onboard Cs clock.
If the satellite counter is counting the cycles from the 10.23 MHz
oscillator for 86,400 sec measured in the satellite, then:
the satellite counter counts 883872000000 cycles
The ground counter counts 883872000000 cycles.
Will a comparison differ in 389 LOST PULSES (38 usec)?
Which pulses do you miss? :-D
I wonder, is it a trick to imply that some pulses should be missing,
or do you really believe that there according to GR should be some?
I understand from where your blunder comes, though.
If the satellite transmitted the 10.23 MHz, then according to GR
883872000394 pulses would hit the ground during one solar day.
Obviously impossible to count.
But you are right about one thing.
If GR had predicted what you think it predicts, GR would be nonsense.
But it doesn't.
I don't think so and even less that such ONLY SOLUTION to the problem
had
even implemented to prove the fucking (WARNING: severe profanity) relativity
in 1977. If you think so, you are an imbecile beyond redemption.
- The calculation of the 38 usec/day REQUIRES A THEORETICAL SEPARATION
of GR
and SR effects using Schwarzschild. It's the same crap that in the Hafele-
Keating 1972 experiment, where data for SR and GR were calculated
theoretically.
- The ALLEGED EFFECT of the 7 us/day due to SR are MISCALCULATED using
Schwarzschild, because this alleged effect MANIFEST in rectilinear
trajectories, NOT IN NON-INERTIAL TRAJECTORIES OF AN ELLIPTIC ORBIT!!!
I left this here because I'm tired of throwing FACTS on the table. You
will rationalize and negate what I wrote.
You claim to be an engineer.
When an engineer by practical measurement finds that the SV clock
runs too fast by ?f/f = 4.425e-10, wouldn't he correct the problem
by adjusting the clock down by ?f/f = - 4.425e-10 ?
What would the engineer Richard Hertz do?
Claim that the measurements must be wrong because he did't
get the expected result, and give up the GPS project?
On Wed, 19 Mar 2025 19:53:36 +0000, Paul.B.Andersen wrote:
<snip all the repeated crap. I left this part as a sample of your
idiocy>
You claim to be an engineer.
When an engineer by practical measurement finds that the SV clock
runs too fast by Δf/f = 4.425e-10, wouldn't he correct the problem
by adjusting the clock down by Δf/f = - 4.425e-10 ?
What would the engineer Richard Hertz do?
Claim that the measurements must be wrong because he did't
get the expected result, and give up the GPS project?
<snip>
You are an engineer too.
The other imbecile wrote that BOTH Cs clocks are locally running at 10,230,000.000000 Hz. But THIS IS NOT WHAT RELATIVISTS CLAIM.
They claim that the onboard TCXO master clock was tuned to
10,229,999.995430 Hz,
with a difference of 0.00457 Hz wrt the Earth'c clock.
Clock on Earth station: accumulates 883,872,000,000 pulses in 86400 sec
(1 day).
Clock on GPS SV: accumulates 883,871,999,605 pulses in 86400 sec (1
day).
The STUPID CLAIM OF RELATIVISTS is that the frequency L1 (1575.42 Mhz),
which is GENERATED BY MULTIPLYING THE MASTER FREQUENCY OF 10.23 Mhz by EXACTLY 154 is what ALLOWS THAT SUCH CARRIER REACHES EARTH AS IF IT WAS GENERATED BY THE ONBOARD Cs CLOCK WORKING AT 10,229,999.995430 Hz,
creating an L1 carrier at the GPS SV of 1,575,419,999.29622 Hz.
When that GPS carrier reaches Earth, it has been shifted (by the
mathemagics of relativity) to EXACTLY 1,575,412 Hz = 10,230,000 Hz x
154.
Dou you understood what I wrote above, imbecile?
Relativists CLAIM FOR 50 YEARS that when they TURNED ON the correction
on the onboard master TCXO, lowering the frequency by 0.00457 Hz, they COMPENSATED RELATIVISTIC EFFECTS ON THE ORBITING CS clock and associated higher frequencies.
And that IS ABSOLUTELY FALSE, HAS NOT BEEN PROVEN NOR IN THE '70s
NEITHER IN THE LAST 50 YEARS, BECAUSE IT'S ABSOLUTELY DECEIVING, A
FUCKING LIE.
If it was TRUE, ask them to publicly show the downloaded DIGITAL COUNT
OF PULSES of the orbiting TCXO, to fact-check with the associated count
of the clock at the Earth station.
Now, asshole (sorry for the profanity), PROVE ME WRONG.
Den 19.03.2025 22:38, skrev rhertz:
On Wed, 19 Mar 2025 19:53:36 +0000, Paul.B.Andersen wrote:
<snip all the repeated crap. I left this part as a sample of your
idiocy>
You claim to be an engineer.
When an engineer by practical measurement finds that the SV clock
runs too fast by Δf/f = 4.425e-10, wouldn't he correct the problem
by adjusting the clock down by Δf/f = - 4.425e-10 ?
What would the engineer Richard Hertz do?
Claim that the measurements must be wrong because he did't
get the expected result, and give up the GPS project?
<snip>
You are an engineer too.
The other imbecile wrote that BOTH Cs clocks are locally running at
10,230,000.000000 Hz. But THIS IS NOT WHAT RELATIVISTS CLAIM.
No, that was what YOU said.
I was responding to your scenario:
Richard Hertz wrote:
|- Suppose that the time of the onboard Cs clock is measured
| by accumulating counts of cycles of the 10.23 Mhz master
| TCXO clock. This, to accumulate pulses with a period of
| 97.7517 nsec during 86,400 sec, requires an onboard
| digital counter displaying 883,872,000,000 counts (12 digits).
| Such data, at the end of the 24 hours period MUST be sent
| down to Earth station, where a twin Cs clock is also counting
| pulses in sync with the onboard Cs clock.
| Will a comparison differ in 389 LOST PULSES (38 usec)?
You say that the reference frequency is 10.23 Mhz, but in
a GPS SV clock the reference frequency is: 10.2299999954326 MHz
So the clock you describe is an ordinary clock running
at the rate defined by SI.
After 86,400 seconds the clock will show 86,400 seconds,
and your counter would have counted 86400*10.23e6 = 883872000000 cycles,
just as you correctly states.
An ordinary SI-clock will obviously always show 86400 seconds
when it has been running for 86400 seconds.
It doesn't matter if the clock is in a satellite, on the ground
or on the moon.
--------------------------
But let us see if we can find your missing pulses.
A "solar day" is defined as the time between each time the sun
passes the same meridian. Let us suppose that we are at one
of the two times of the year when a solar day by a clock
at Earth's geoid is measured to be 86400 seconds.
A normal clock with rate as defined by SI which is in GPS orbit
will according to GR measure a solar day to be
86400*(1+4.4647e-10) s = 86400s + 38.575μs
Note that this means that the SV clock will be 38.575μs
more ahead of the ground clock every day.
The number of pulses from the oscillator counted by your counter
will then be 86400*(1+4.4647e-10)*10.23e6 = 883872000394 pulses.
The counter on the ground will count 86400*10.23e6 = 883872000000
pulses from the local oscillator.
So the counter in the SV will count 394 pulses more.
There are your missing counts.
-------------------------
Your blunder was that you didn't realise that a "day" measured
by the clock in the SV is 38.575μs longer that a day measured by
a clock on the ground. This is THE central point.
So when you specified that the counter should count the pulses
during 86400 seconds, you missed the pulses sent during the 38.575μs.
That's why I wrote:
"If the satellite counter is counting the cycles from the 10.23 MHz
oscillator for 86,400 sec measured in the satellite, then:
the satellite counter counts 883872000000 cycles"
They claim that the onboard TCXO master clock was tuned to
10,229,999.995430 Hz,
with a difference of 0.00457 Hz wrt the Earth'c clock.
Right. But in your scenario you specified an uncorrected clock.
In a real GPS satellite the reference oscillator is adjusted down
by the factor (1-4.4647e-10) so it will measure the number of second
during a solar day to be (86400s + 38.575μs)*(1-4.4647e-10) = 86400s
So it will stay in sync with the ground clock.
Clock on Earth station: accumulates 883,872,000,000 pulses in 86400 sec
(1 day).
Right.
Clock on GPS SV: accumulates 883,871,999,605 pulses in 86400 sec (1
day).
It accumulates 883872000000 pulses in (86400s + 38.575μs) (1 day)
The STUPID CLAIM OF RELATIVISTS is that the frequency L1 (1575.42 Mhz),
which is GENERATED BY MULTIPLYING THE MASTER FREQUENCY OF 10.23 Mhz by
EXACTLY 154 is what ALLOWS THAT SUCH CARRIER REACHES EARTH AS IF IT WAS
GENERATED BY THE ONBOARD Cs CLOCK WORKING AT 10,229,999.995430 Hz,
creating an L1 carrier at the GPS SV of 1,575,419,999.29622 Hz.
What are you talking about?
All the frequencies in the SV are derived from the reference
frequency 10.2299999954326 MHz.
There is no "MASTER FREQUENCY OF 10.23 Mhz" in the SV.
From the Interface Specification Document. ------------------------------------------
The carrier frequencies for the L1 and L2 signals shall be coherently
derived from a common frequency source within the SV. The nominal
frequency of this source -- as it appears to an observer on the ground
-- is 10.23 MHz. The SV carrier frequency and clock rates -- as they
would appear to an observer located in the SV -- are offset to
compensate for relativistic effects. The clock rates are offset by
Δf/f = -4.4647E-10, equivalent to a change in the P-code chipping
rate of 10.23 MHz offset by a Δf = -4.5674E-3 Hz. This is equal to 10.2299999954326 MHz.
The "common frequency source within the SV" is 10.2299999954326 MHz.
The main reason for the GR correction is to make the SV clock
run synchronously to UTC.
(Or to the GPS coordinated time which is the same as UTC but for
a known offset)
When that GPS carrier reaches Earth, it has been shifted (by the
mathemagics of relativity) to EXACTLY 1,575,412 Hz = 10,230,000 Hz x
154.
When the carrier reaches the receiver it is Doppler shifted
up to Δf/f = ± 1e-7 , up to 200 times the GR correction.
The frequency of the carrier is irrelevant, the receiver
must have bandwidth enough to receive the carriers from
up to 12 satellites. The carriers are all Doppler shifted
differently.
The satellites are not separated by their frequency, but
by their PRN sequence.
The frequency that is important is the shipping rate,
since this frequency is used by the receiver to calculate
the time when the signal was transmitted.
But you don't know how that is done, do you?
Dou you understood what I wrote above, imbecile?
I understand that there is nothing you can't misunderstand.
Relativists CLAIM FOR 50 YEARS that when they TURNED ON the correction
on the onboard master TCXO, lowering the frequency by 0.00457 Hz, they
COMPENSATED RELATIVISTIC EFFECTS ON THE ORBITING CS clock and associated
higher frequencies.
And that IS ABSOLUTELY FALSE, HAS NOT BEEN PROVEN NOR IN THE '70s
NEITHER IN THE LAST 50 YEARS, BECAUSE IT'S ABSOLUTELY DECEIVING, A
FUCKING LIE.
If it was TRUE, ask them to publicly show the downloaded DIGITAL COUNT
OF PULSES of the orbiting TCXO, to fact-check with the associated count
of the clock at the Earth station.
Don't you know that the SV clock is the digital count of
the common frequency source?
It is transmitted every 12. minutes by all the SVs.
(and you can find the time continuously by counting the chips.)
Now, asshole (sorry for the profanity), PROVE ME WRONG.
Well, since the GPS doesn't work it is no point in trying to
make you believe that it does, is it? :-D
Le 20/03/2025 à 22:20, "Paul.B.Andersen" a écrit :
Den 19.03.2025 22:38, skrev rhertz:
On Wed, 19 Mar 2025 19:53:36 +0000, Paul.B.Andersen wrote:
<snip all the repeated crap. I left this part as a sample of your
idiocy>
You claim to be an engineer.
When an engineer by practical measurement finds that the SV clock
runs too fast by Δf/f = 4.425e-10, wouldn't he correct the problem
by adjusting the clock down by Δf/f = - 4.425e-10 ?
What would the engineer Richard Hertz do?
Claim that the measurements must be wrong because he did't
get the expected result, and give up the GPS project?
<snip>
You are an engineer too.
The other imbecile wrote that BOTH Cs clocks are locally running at
10,230,000.000000 Hz. But THIS IS NOT WHAT RELATIVISTS CLAIM.
No, that was what YOU said.
I was responding to your scenario:
Richard Hertz wrote:
|- Suppose that the time of the onboard Cs clock is measured
| by accumulating counts of cycles of the 10.23 Mhz master
| TCXO clock. This, to accumulate pulses with a period of
| 97.7517 nsec during 86,400 sec, requires an onboard
| digital counter displaying 883,872,000,000 counts (12 digits).
| Such data, at the end of the 24 hours period MUST be sent
| down to Earth station, where a twin Cs clock is also counting
| pulses in sync with the onboard Cs clock.
| Will a comparison differ in 389 LOST PULSES (38 usec)?
You say that the reference frequency is 10.23 Mhz, but in
a GPS SV clock the reference frequency is: 10.2299999954326 MHz
So the clock you describe is an ordinary clock running
at the rate defined by SI.
After 86,400 seconds the clock will show 86,400 seconds,
and your counter would have counted 86400*10.23e6 = 883872000000 cycles,
just as you correctly states.
An ordinary SI-clock will obviously always show 86400 seconds
when it has been running for 86400 seconds.
It doesn't matter if the clock is in a satellite, on the ground
or on the moon.
--------------------------
But let us see if we can find your missing pulses.
A "solar day" is defined as the time between each time the sun
passes the same meridian. Let us suppose that we are at one
of the two times of the year when a solar day by a clock
at Earth's geoid is measured to be 86400 seconds.
A normal clock with rate as defined by SI which is in GPS orbit
will according to GR measure a solar day to be
86400*(1+4.4647e-10) s = 86400s + 38.575μs
Note that this means that the SV clock will be 38.575μs
more ahead of the ground clock every day.
The number of pulses from the oscillator counted by your counter
will then be 86400*(1+4.4647e-10)*10.23e6 = 883872000394 pulses.
The counter on the ground will count 86400*10.23e6 = 883872000000
pulses from the local oscillator.
So the counter in the SV will count 394 pulses more.
There are your missing counts.
-------------------------
Your blunder was that you didn't realise that a "day" measured
by the clock in the SV is 38.575μs longer that a day measured by
a clock on the ground. This is THE central point.
So when you specified that the counter should count the pulses
during 86400 seconds, you missed the pulses sent during the 38.575μs.
That's why I wrote:
"If the satellite counter is counting the cycles from the 10.23 MHz
oscillator for 86,400 sec measured in the satellite, then:
the satellite counter counts 883872000000 cycles"
They claim that the onboard TCXO master clock was tuned to
10,229,999.995430 Hz,
with a difference of 0.00457 Hz wrt the Earth'c clock.
Right. But in your scenario you specified an uncorrected clock.
In a real GPS satellite the reference oscillator is adjusted down
by the factor (1-4.4647e-10) so it will measure the number of second
during a solar day to be (86400s + 38.575μs)*(1-4.4647e-10) = 86400s
So it will stay in sync with the ground clock.
Clock on Earth station: accumulates 883,872,000,000 pulses in 86400 sec
(1 day).
Right.
Clock on GPS SV: accumulates 883,871,999,605 pulses in 86400 sec (1
day).
It accumulates 883872000000 pulses in (86400s + 38.575μs) (1 day)
The STUPID CLAIM OF RELATIVISTS is that the frequency L1 (1575.42 Mhz),
which is GENERATED BY MULTIPLYING THE MASTER FREQUENCY OF 10.23 Mhz by
EXACTLY 154 is what ALLOWS THAT SUCH CARRIER REACHES EARTH AS IF IT WAS
GENERATED BY THE ONBOARD Cs CLOCK WORKING AT 10,229,999.995430 Hz,
creating an L1 carrier at the GPS SV of 1,575,419,999.29622 Hz.
What are you talking about?
All the frequencies in the SV are derived from the reference
frequency 10.2299999954326 MHz.
There is no "MASTER FREQUENCY OF 10.23 Mhz" in the SV.
From the Interface Specification Document.
------------------------------------------
The carrier frequencies for the L1 and L2 signals shall be coherently
derived from a common frequency source within the SV. The nominal
frequency of this source -- as it appears to an observer on the ground
-- is 10.23 MHz. The SV carrier frequency and clock rates -- as they
would appear to an observer located in the SV -- are offset to
compensate for relativistic effects. The clock rates are offset by
Δf/f = -4.4647E-10, equivalent to a change in the P-code chipping
rate of 10.23 MHz offset by a Δf = -4.5674E-3 Hz. This is equal to
10.2299999954326 MHz.
The "common frequency source within the SV" is 10.2299999954326 MHz.
The main reason for the GR correction is to make the SV clock
run synchronously to UTC.
(Or to the GPS coordinated time which is the same as UTC but for
a known offset)
When that GPS carrier reaches Earth, it has been shifted (by the
mathemagics of relativity) to EXACTLY 1,575,412 Hz = 10,230,000 Hz x
154.
When the carrier reaches the receiver it is Doppler shifted
up to Δf/f = ± 1e-7 , up to 200 times the GR correction.
The frequency of the carrier is irrelevant, the receiver
must have bandwidth enough to receive the carriers from
up to 12 satellites. The carriers are all Doppler shifted
differently.
The satellites are not separated by their frequency, but
by their PRN sequence.
The frequency that is important is the shipping rate,
since this frequency is used by the receiver to calculate
the time when the signal was transmitted.
But you don't know how that is done, do you?
Dou you understood what I wrote above, imbecile?
I understand that there is nothing you can't misunderstand.
Relativists CLAIM FOR 50 YEARS that when they TURNED ON the correction
on the onboard master TCXO, lowering the frequency by 0.00457 Hz, they
COMPENSATED RELATIVISTIC EFFECTS ON THE ORBITING CS clock and associated >>> higher frequencies.
And that IS ABSOLUTELY FALSE, HAS NOT BEEN PROVEN NOR IN THE '70s
NEITHER IN THE LAST 50 YEARS, BECAUSE IT'S ABSOLUTELY DECEIVING, A
FUCKING LIE.
If it was TRUE, ask them to publicly show the downloaded DIGITAL COUNT
OF PULSES of the orbiting TCXO, to fact-check with the associated count
of the clock at the Earth station.
Don't you know that the SV clock is the digital count of
the common frequency source?
It is transmitted every 12. minutes by all the SVs.
(and you can find the time continuously by counting the chips.)
Now, asshole (sorry for the profanity), PROVE ME WRONG.
Well, since the GPS doesn't work it is no point in trying to
make you believe that it does, is it? :-D
At 5 a.m. someone in Poland will shit in hist bed because of your post.
How dare you :-) ?
Den 19.03.2025 22:38, skrev rhertz:
On Wed, 19 Mar 2025 19:53:36 +0000, Paul.B.Andersen wrote:
<snip all the repeated crap. I left this part as a sample of your
idiocy>
You claim to be an engineer.
When an engineer by practical measurement finds that the SV clock
runs too fast by Δf/f = 4.425e-10, wouldn't he correct the problem
by adjusting the clock down by Δf/f = - 4.425e-10 ?
What would the engineer Richard Hertz do?
Claim that the measurements must be wrong because he did't
get the expected result, and give up the GPS project?
<snip>
You are an engineer too.
The other imbecile wrote that BOTH Cs clocks are locally running at
10,230,000.000000 Hz. But THIS IS NOT WHAT RELATIVISTS CLAIM.
No, that was what YOU said.
I was responding to your scenario:
Richard Hertz wrote:
|- Suppose that the time of the onboard Cs clock is measured
| by accumulating counts of cycles of the 10.23 Mhz master
| TCXO clock. This, to accumulate pulses with a period of
| 97.7517 nsec during 86,400 sec, requires an onboard
| digital counter displaying 883,872,000,000 counts (12 digits).
| Such data, at the end of the 24 hours period MUST be sent
| down to Earth station, where a twin Cs clock is also counting
| pulses in sync with the onboard Cs clock.
| Will a comparison differ in 389 LOST PULSES (38 usec)?
You say that the reference frequency is 10.23 Mhz, but in
a GPS SV clock the reference frequency is: 10.2299999954326 MHz
So the clock you describe is an ordinary clock running
at the rate defined by SI.
After 86,400 seconds the clock will show 86,400 seconds,
and your counter would have counted 86400*10.23e6 = 883872000000 cycles,
just as you correctly states.
An ordinary SI-clock will obviously always show 86400 seconds
when it has been running for 86400 seconds.
It doesn't matter if the clock is in a satellite, on the ground
or on the moon.
--------------------------
But let us see if we can find your missing pulses.
A "solar day" is defined as the time between each time the sun
passes the same meridian. Let us suppose that we are at one
of the two times of the year when a solar day by a clock
at Earth's geoid is measured to be 86400 seconds.
A normal clock with rate as defined by SI which is in GPS orbit
will according to GR measure a solar day to be
86400*(1+4.4647e-10) s = 86400s + 38.575μs
Note that this means that the SV clock will be 38.575μs
more ahead of the ground clock every day.
The number of pulses from the oscillator counted by your counter
will then be 86400*(1+4.4647e-10)*10.23e6 = 883872000394 pulses.
The counter on the ground will count 86400*10.23e6 = 883872000000
pulses from the local oscillator.
So the counter in the SV will count 394 pulses more.
There are your missing counts.
-------------------------
Your blunder was that you didn't realise that a "day" measured
by the clock in the SV is 38.575μs longer that a day measured by
a clock on the ground. This is THE central point.
So when you specified that the counter should count the pulses
during 86400 seconds, you missed the pulses sent during the 38.575μs.
That's why I wrote:
"If the satellite counter is counting the cycles from the 10.23 MHz
oscillator for 86,400 sec measured in the satellite, then:
the satellite counter counts 883872000000 cycles"
They claim that the onboard TCXO master clock was tuned to
10,229,999.995430 Hz,
with a difference of 0.00457 Hz wrt the Earth'c clock.
Right. But in your scenario you specified an uncorrected clock.
In a real GPS satellite the reference oscillator is adjusted down
by the factor (1-4.4647e-10) so it will measure the number of second
during a solar day to be (86400s + 38.575μs)*(1-4.4647e-10) = 86400s
So it will stay in sync with the ground clock.
Clock on Earth station: accumulates 883,872,000,000 pulses in 86400 sec
(1 day).
Right.
Clock on GPS SV: accumulates 883,871,999,605 pulses in 86400 sec (1
day).
It accumulates 883872000000 pulses in (86400s + 38.575μs) (1 day)
The STUPID CLAIM OF RELATIVISTS is that the frequency L1 (1575.42 Mhz),
which is GENERATED BY MULTIPLYING THE MASTER FREQUENCY OF 10.23 Mhz by
EXACTLY 154 is what ALLOWS THAT SUCH CARRIER REACHES EARTH AS IF IT WAS
GENERATED BY THE ONBOARD Cs CLOCK WORKING AT 10,229,999.995430 Hz,
creating an L1 carrier at the GPS SV of 1,575,419,999.29622 Hz.
What are you talking about?
All the frequencies in the SV are derived from the reference
frequency 10.2299999954326 MHz.
There is no "MASTER FREQUENCY OF 10.23 Mhz" in the SV.
From the Interface Specification Document. ------------------------------------------
The carrier frequencies for the L1 and L2 signals shall be coherently
derived from a common frequency source within the SV. The nominal
frequency of this source -- as it appears to an observer on the ground
-- is 10.23 MHz. The SV carrier frequency and clock rates -- as they
would appear to an observer located in the SV -- are offset to
compensate for relativistic effects. The clock rates are offset by
Δf/f = -4.4647E-10, equivalent to a change in the P-code chipping
rate of 10.23 MHz offset by a Δf = -4.5674E-3 Hz. This is equal to 10.2299999954326 MHz.
On Thu, 20 Mar 2025 21:24:30 +0000, Paul.B.Andersen wrote:
Well, since the GPS doesn't work it is no point in trying to
make you believe that it does, is it? :-D
Nice analysis, Paul. Well redacted and with many details.
Only THAT YOU FUCKED IT UP, AS YOU USUALLY DO!
The master TCXO clock on the GPS SV have (according to the narrative of
1977 relativists), TWO OPERATING MODES:
M1: Working at 10,230,000.000000 Hz (as good physics dictates)
M2: Working at 10,229,999.995430 Hz (as relativists claim it to be
necessary)
Your BLUNDER is that working in M2, the onboard counter has LESS COUNTS,
NOT MORE, after the 86,400 sec/day.
So, your count is incorrect.
Clock on Earth station: accumulates 883,872,000,000 pulses in 86400 sec.
Working on M2 mode, clock on the GPS SV accumulates 883,871,999,608
pulses in 86400 sec.
as measured IN THE SV. So, the count gives (86400s - 38.575μs). It's
a LOWER LOCAL VALUE within the GPS SV.
What relativists claim, because they are IDIOTS, is that such difference DISAPPEAR IN THIN AIR when PERCEIVED FROM EARTH (Ground level). And they celebrate that due to relativistic corrections, the L1 frequency REACHES EARTH with an increase in frequency of Δf/f = -4.4647E-10.
Such relativistic correction, idiots claim, allow that the L1 carrier
emitted from the SV at 1,575,419,999.29622 Hz COULD REACH EARTH AT
EXACTLY 1,575,420,000.000 Hz = 154 x 10,230,000.000000 Hz.
Is that clear enough? The act of detuning the SV TCXO causes a LOSS
OF 38.5 usec on the orbiting clock.
But FROM EARTH, it's perceived AS IF THAT DIFFERENCE HAS BEEN
CANCELLED, because Schwarzschild advised so.
Don't be confused about the values of time and frequency. Two sides of
the same coin.
Which is the truth? Relativity IS FALSE, A FALLACIOUS PSEUDOSCIENCE, AND
THE ORBITING CLOCK WORKS ONLY IN THE M1 MODE.
Or, as Maciej always say, t'=t.
Please, hold on with your butthurt, or try some cream to easy the pain.
On Thu, 20 Mar 2025 23:33:47 +0000, rhertz wrote:
On Thu, 20 Mar 2025 21:24:30 +0000, Paul.B.Andersen wrote:
Well, since the GPS doesn't work it is no point in trying to
make you believe that it does, is it? :-D
Nice analysis, Paul. Well redacted and with many details.
Only THAT YOU FUCKED IT UP, AS YOU USUALLY DO!
No, he didn't. Hertz doesn't seem to be a conscious entity.
The master TCXO clock on the GPS SV have (according to the narrative of
1977 relativists), TWO OPERATING MODES:
M1: Working at 10,230,000.000000 Hz (as good physics dictates)
M2: Working at 10,229,999.995430 Hz (as relativists claim it to be
necessary)
This was only true for the first ones in orbit. Your M1 scenario hasn't been implemented for decades.
Your BLUNDER is that working in M2, the onboard counter has LESS COUNTS,
NOT MORE, after the 86,400 sec/day.
Hertz's blunder is that he conflates time on board with time on the
ground.
His pseudo-Newtonian mind is incapable of understanding reality. (I say pseudo-Newtonian because he seems unable to understand even Newtonian physics).
So, your count is incorrect.
Clock on Earth station: accumulates 883,872,000,000 pulses in 86400 sec.
Working on M2 mode, clock on the GPS SV accumulates 883,871,999,608
pulses in 86400 sec.
Hertz's problem is that, once again, he doesn't understand 86400 seconds
on earth is not 86400 seconds in orbit.
But the fact is that the slower clock in orbit matches the master
clock on the ground. Not because Schwarzschild "advised so" but
because that is what REALLY happens.
We believe we know WHY it happens because
Hertz is the one with buttHertz. Weird Wozniak believes Newtonian
physics
is proved because t' = t
----------------------------
gharnagel, with a heavy heart I've to tell you that you are A FUCKING RETARDED, struggling to fight your COGNITIVE DISSONANCE.
If the master TCXO clock ON THE GPS SV is working in M2 mode,
at 10,229,999.995430 Hz, ALL THE CARRIER FREQUENCIES SYNTHESIZED FROM IT
have a LOWER NOMINAL VALUE than those of the twin TCXO working on Earth.
Your STUPID RELATIVITY SAYS THAT THE PERCEPTION OF FREQUENCIES AT
GROUND LEVEL are MULTIPLES of the local 10,230,000.000000 Hz
frequency. DO YOU ACCEPT THIS?
So, according to your FUCKING RELATIVITY and Schwarzschild, the proper frequencies of both clocks are:
M1 frequency at Earth's station.
M2 frequency at GPS SV.
The Δf/f = -4.4647E-10 frequency shift allegedly caused by BLUE
SHIFTING and SR,
which causes the 38.5 usec difference in the daily accumulation of
counts from the SV clock working at M1 frequency DISAPPEAR if the L1
carrier is recovered at ground level and the frequency of
10,230,000.000000 Hz is also recovered, dividing the L1 nominal
frequency by 154 (EXACTLY).
The scenario, in your rotten relativistic brain, is:
The local count in the orbiting GPS SV, for 86400 sec,
883,871,999,608 pulses, while the daily local count at ground
station is 883,872,000,000 pulses.
The clock at the GPS SV is locally counting LESS PULSES (38.5 us) than
the clock at ground station. It's the MATHEMAGICS OF RELATIVITY that
makes this difference disappear while radiating L1 carrier from the GPS
SV to the ground station. So, the CLAIM IS THAT the SV clock HAS TO BE WORKING AT M2 FREQUENCY.
The difference digital counters would register is of 395 pulses which,
with a period of 97.7517106549365 ns gives a daily difference of
(NEGATIVE)
-38.5970696442754 us, which is what relativists claim as the "error"
between both clocks.
If you have (and you do since the first GPS SV) a second clock
(Rubidium) on the satellite, IT WILL LOCALLY COUNT THE SAME 86,400
SECONDS than the Cs clock on the Earth station.
If you don't understand the above, nothing I can do to fix your
deviated mind.
When the onboard Rubidium clock (used as an arbiter) marks 86,400 sec,
the counter associated with the onboard Cesium clock will register:
(86,400 - 38.5970696442754 X 10^-06) SECONDS.
Are you really that kind of imbecile that CAN'T UNDERSTAND the above,
which was written following the RULES that relativists claim? So much
of an idiot are you?
I'm not going to waste more time with you, gharnagel. I prefer
to teach differential geometry to my dog, which I'm sure it will
ace it, instead of you.
All onboard atomic clocks work through a synthesizer to generate the
10.299+ MHz M2 signal.
On Thu, 20 Mar 2025 21:24:30 +0000, Paul.B.Andersen wrote:
Den 19.03.2025 22:38, skrev rhertz:
A normal clock with rate as defined by SI which is in GPS orbit
will according to GR measure a solar day to be
86400*(1+4.4647e-10) s = 86400s + 38.575μs
Your blunder was that you didn't realise that a "day" measured
by the clock in the SV is 38.575μs longer that a day measured by
a clock on the ground. This is THE central point.
In a real GPS satellite the reference oscillator is adjusted down
by the factor (1-4.4647e-10) so it will measure the number of second
during a solar day to be (86400s + 38.575μs)*(1-4.4647e-10) = 86400s
So it will stay in sync with the ground clock.
Clock on Earth station: accumulates 883,872,000,000 pulses in 86400 sec
(1 day).
Right.
Clock on GPS SV: accumulates 883,871,999,605 pulses in 86400 sec (1
day).
It accumulates 883872000000 pulses in (86400s + 38.575μs) (1 day)
Nice analysis, Paul. Well redacted and with many details.
Only THAT YOU FUCKED IT UP, AS YOU USUALLY DO!
The master TCXO clock on the GPS SV have (according to the narrative of
1977 relativists), TWO OPERATING MODES:
M1: Working at 10,230,000.000000 Hz (as good physics dictates)
M2: Working at 10,229,999.995430 Hz (as relativists claim it to be
necessary)
Your BLUNDER is that working in M2, the onboard counter has LESS COUNTS,
NOT MORE, after the 86,400 sec/day.
So, your count is incorrect.
Clock on Earth station: accumulates 883,872,000,000 pulses in 86400 sec.
Working on M2 mode, clock on the GPS SV accumulates 883,871,999,608
pulses in 86400 sec. as measured IN THE SV. So, the count gives (86400s
- 38.575μs). It's a LOWER LOCAL VALUE within the GPS SV.
What relativists claim, because they are IDIOTS, is that such difference DISAPPEAR IN THIN AIR when PERCEIVED FROM EARTH (Ground level). And they celebrate that due to relativistic corrections, the L1 frequency REACHES EARTH with an increase in frequency of Δf/f = -4.4647E-10.
Such relativistic correction, idiots claim, allow that the L1 carrier
emitted from the SV at 1,575,419,999.29622 Hz COULD REACH EARTH AT
EXACTLY
1,575,420,000.000 Hz = 154 x 10,230,000.000000 Hz.
Is that clear enough? The act of detuning the SV TCXO causes a LOSS OF
38.5 usec
on the orbiting clock. But FROM EARTH, it's perceived AS IF THAT
DIFFERENCE HAS BEEN CANCELLED, because Schwarzschild advised so.
Don't be confused about the values of time and frequency. Two sides of
the same coin.
Which is the truth? Relativity IS FALSE, A FALLACIOUS PSEUDOSCIENCE, AND
THE ORBITING CLOCK WORKS ONLY IN THE M1 MODE.
Or, as Maciej always say, t'=t.
Please, hold on with your butthurt, or try some cream to easy the pain.
On Fri, 21 Mar 2025 19:43:45 +0000, Paul.B.Andersen wrote:
Den 21.03.2025 00:33, skrev rhertz:
On Thu, 20 Mar 2025 21:24:30 +0000, Paul.B.Andersen wrote:
Den 19.03.2025 22:38, skrev rhertz:
A normal clock with rate as defined by SI which is in GPS orbit
will according to GR measure a solar day to be
86400*(1+4.4647e-10) s = 86400s + 38.575μs
Note this!
A normal clock in GPS orbit will measure the duration of
one solar day to be 86400 s + 38.575 μs
These are seconds as defined by SI.
A clock on the ground will measure the duration of one day
to be 86400 s.
These are seconds as defined by SI.
You must have a serious reading comprehension problem since
you you missed this _very essential_ point!
Your blunder was that you didn't realise that a "day" measured
by the clock in the SV is 38.575μs longer that a day measured by
a clock on the ground. This is THE central point.
And you repeat the blunder! ROFL
In a real GPS satellite the reference oscillator is adjusted down
by the factor (1-4.4647e-10) so it will measure the number of second
during a solar day to be (86400s + 38.575μs)*(1-4.4647e-10) = 86400s
So it will stay in sync with the ground clock.
Clock on Earth station: accumulates 883,872,000,000 pulses in 86400
sec
(1 day).
Right.
Clock on GPS SV: accumulates 883,871,999,605 pulses in 86400 sec (1
day).
It accumulates 883872000000 pulses in (86400s + 38.575μs) (1 day)
Nice analysis, Paul. Well redacted and with many details.
If you had read it, you wouldn't have made a fool of yourself. Again!
Only THAT YOU FUCKED IT UP, AS YOU USUALLY DO!
The master TCXO clock on the GPS SV have (according to the narrative of
1977 relativists), TWO OPERATING MODES:
M1: Working at 10,230,000.000000 Hz (as good physics dictates)
M2: Working at 10,229,999.995430 Hz (as relativists claim it to be
necessary)
Your BLUNDER is that working in M2, the onboard counter has LESS COUNTS, >>> NOT MORE, after the 86,400 sec/day.
As I explained it in the posting you now are responding to,
the adjusted clock will tick out 84400 shorted seconds
during one day which is (86400s + 38.575μs).
This means that it will stay in sync with the clock on the ground.
So, your count is incorrect.
Clock on Earth station: accumulates 883,872,000,000 pulses in 86400 sec. >>>
Working on M2 mode, clock on the GPS SV accumulates 883,871,999,608
pulses in 86400 sec. as measured IN THE SV. So, the count gives (86400s
- 38.575μs). It's a LOWER LOCAL VALUE within the GPS SV.
What relativists claim, because they are IDIOTS, is that such difference >>> DISAPPEAR IN THIN AIR when PERCEIVED FROM EARTH (Ground level). And they >>> celebrate that due to relativistic corrections, the L1 frequency REACHES >>> EARTH with an increase in frequency of Δf/f = -4.4647E-10.
Such relativistic correction, idiots claim, allow that the L1 carrier
emitted from the SV at 1,575,419,999.29622 Hz COULD REACH EARTH AT
EXACTLY
1,575,420,000.000 Hz = 154 x 10,230,000.000000 Hz.
You still don't get it, do you?
The frequency of the transmitted L1 is 1575.4199992966223 MHz.
During one day, which in the satellite is 86400.000038575 s,
the number of transmitted cycles is:
1575419999.2966223*86400.000038575 = 136116288000000 cycles
These cycles are reaching the ground during one day, which on
the ground is 86400 s. This means that the frequency on the ground
is 136116288000000/86400s = 1575420000.0 Hz = 1575.42 MHz
All the pulses that are emitted during one day, are reaching
the ground during one day. No pulses DISAPPEAR IN THIN AIR.
Is that clear enough? The act of detuning the SV TCXO causes a LOSS OF
38.5 usec
In the following an "SI-clock" is a clock which counts seconds as
defined by SI.
Read this:
------------
GR predicts that an SI-clock on the geoid will measure a mean solar day
to last the proper time 86400 s
GR predicts that an SI-clock in GPS orbit will measure a mean solar day
to last the proper time 86400*(1 + 4.4647e-10)s = 86400.000038575 s
If you knew this, then all the mysteries that confuse you so
much will go away. But you will never learn.
You can kick and scream and curse as much as you want, it is a fact
that this is what GR predicts.
As you know was this prediction of GR confirmed for the first time
in 1977, and in the 48 years since then it is confirmed many thousands
times every day, by the simple fact that the GPS works.
on the orbiting clock. But FROM EARTH, it's perceived AS IF THAT
DIFFERENCE HAS BEEN CANCELLED, because Schwarzschild advised so.
You don't know what the Schwarzschild metric predicts.
I do: https://paulba.no/pdf/Clock_rate.pdf
Don't be confused about the values of time and frequency. Two sides of
the same coin.
Which is the truth? Relativity IS FALSE, A FALLACIOUS PSEUDOSCIENCE, AND >>> THE ORBITING CLOCK WORKS ONLY IN THE M1 MODE.
Or, as Maciej always say, t'=t.
And you agree with the smart guy Maciej?
You must be right, then. ROFL
Please, hold on with your butthurt, or try some cream to easy the pain.
It is not my butt that hurts. It is my stomach.
Imbecile, to fulfill the prophecy of your cretin pagan god, the GPS SV
clock has to be switched to the M2 frequency BEING IN ORBIT,
On Fri, 21 Mar 2025 22:27:40 +0000, Maciej Wozniak wrote:
W dniu 21.03.2025 o 23:17, rhertz pisze:
On Fri, 21 Mar 2025 19:43:45 +0000, Paul.B.Andersen wrote:
Den 21.03.2025 00:33, skrev rhertz:
On Thu, 20 Mar 2025 21:24:30 +0000, Paul.B.Andersen wrote:
Den 19.03.2025 22:38, skrev rhertz:
A normal clock with rate as defined by SI which is in GPS orbit
will according to GR measure a solar day to be
86400*(1+4.4647e-10) s = 86400s + 38.575μs
Note this!
A normal clock in GPS orbit will measure the duration of
one solar day to be 86400 s + 38.575 μs
These are seconds as defined by SI.
A clock on the ground will measure the duration of one day
to be 86400 s.
These are seconds as defined by SI.
You must have a serious reading comprehension problem since
you you missed this _very essential_ point!
Your blunder was that you didn't realise that a "day" measured
by the clock in the SV is 38.575μs longer that a day measured by
a clock on the ground. This is THE central point.
And you repeat the blunder! ROFL
In a real GPS satellite the reference oscillator is adjusted down
by the factor (1-4.4647e-10) so it will measure the number of second >>>>>> during a solar day to be (86400s + 38.575μs)*(1-4.4647e-10) = 86400s >>>>>>
So it will stay in sync with the ground clock.
Clock on Earth station: accumulates 883,872,000,000 pulses in 86400 >>>>>>> sec
(1 day).
Right.
Clock on GPS SV: accumulates 883,871,999,605 pulses in 86400 sec (1 >>>>>>> day).
It accumulates 883872000000 pulses in (86400s + 38.575μs) (1 day) >>>>>>
Nice analysis, Paul. Well redacted and with many details.
If you had read it, you wouldn't have made a fool of yourself. Again!
Only THAT YOU FUCKED IT UP, AS YOU USUALLY DO!
The master TCXO clock on the GPS SV have (according to the
narrative of
1977 relativists), TWO OPERATING MODES:
M1: Working at 10,230,000.000000 Hz (as good physics dictates)
M2: Working at 10,229,999.995430 Hz (as relativists claim it to be
necessary)
Your BLUNDER is that working in M2, the onboard counter has LESS
COUNTS,
NOT MORE, after the 86,400 sec/day.
As I explained it in the posting you now are responding to,
the adjusted clock will tick out 84400 shorted seconds
during one day which is (86400s + 38.575μs).
This means that it will stay in sync with the clock on the ground.
So, your count is incorrect.
Clock on Earth station: accumulates 883,872,000,000 pulses in 86400
sec.
Working on M2 mode, clock on the GPS SV accumulates 883,871,999,608
pulses in 86400 sec. as measured IN THE SV. So, the count gives
(86400s
- 38.575μs). It's a LOWER LOCAL VALUE within the GPS SV.
What relativists claim, because they are IDIOTS, is that such
difference
DISAPPEAR IN THIN AIR when PERCEIVED FROM EARTH (Ground level). And
they
celebrate that due to relativistic corrections, the L1 frequency
REACHES
EARTH with an increase in frequency of Δf/f = -4.4647E-10.
Such relativistic correction, idiots claim, allow that the L1 carrier >>>>> emitted from the SV at 1,575,419,999.29622 Hz COULD REACH EARTH AT
EXACTLY
1,575,420,000.000 Hz = 154 x 10,230,000.000000 Hz.
You still don't get it, do you?
The frequency of the transmitted L1 is 1575.4199992966223 MHz.
During one day, which in the satellite is 86400.000038575 s,
the number of transmitted cycles is:
1575419999.2966223*86400.000038575 = 136116288000000 cycles
These cycles are reaching the ground during one day, which on
the ground is 86400 s. This means that the frequency on the ground
is 136116288000000/86400s = 1575420000.0 Hz = 1575.42 MHz
All the pulses that are emitted during one day, are reaching
the ground during one day. No pulses DISAPPEAR IN THIN AIR.
Is that clear enough? The act of detuning the SV TCXO causes a LOSS OF >>>>> 38.5 usec
In the following an "SI-clock" is a clock which counts seconds as
defined by SI.
Read this:
------------
GR predicts that an SI-clock on the geoid will measure a mean solar day >>>> to last the proper time 86400 s
GR predicts that an SI-clock in GPS orbit will measure a mean solar day >>>> to last the proper time 86400*(1 + 4.4647e-10)s = 86400.000038575 s
If you knew this, then all the mysteries that confuse you so
much will go away. But you will never learn.
You can kick and scream and curse as much as you want, it is a fact
that this is what GR predicts.
As you know was this prediction of GR confirmed for the first time
in 1977, and in the 48 years since then it is confirmed many thousands >>>> times every day, by the simple fact that the GPS works.
on the orbiting clock. But FROM EARTH, it's perceived AS IF THAT
DIFFERENCE HAS BEEN CANCELLED, because Schwarzschild advised so.
You don't know what the Schwarzschild metric predicts.
I do: https://paulba.no/pdf/Clock_rate.pdf
Don't be confused about the values of time and frequency. Two sides of >>>>> the same coin.
Which is the truth? Relativity IS FALSE, A FALLACIOUS
PSEUDOSCIENCE, AND
THE ORBITING CLOCK WORKS ONLY IN THE M1 MODE.
Or, as Maciej always say, t'=t.
And you agree with the smart guy Maciej?
You must be right, then. ROFL
Please, hold on with your butthurt, or try some cream to easy the
pain.
It is not my butt that hurts. It is my stomach.
Imbecile, to fulfill the prophecy of your cretin pagan god, the GPS SV
clock has to be switched to the M2 frequency BEING IN ORBIT,
To fulfill the prophecy of the idiot -
the clock should be left alone, without
any corrections. GPS wouldn't work, but
what a magnificient symmetry we would
have instead.
I agree with the comment about that clocks should be left alone. THEY
ARE, and the stupid myth that relativistic corrections are required is
just that, A MYTH.
On Fri, 21 Mar 2025 19:43:45 +0000, Paul.B.Andersen wrote:
On Thu, 20 Mar 2025 21:24:30 +0000, Paul.B.Andersen wrote:>>>
A normal clock with rate as defined by SI which is in GPS orbit
will according to GR measure a solar day to be
86400*(1+4.4647e-10) s = 86400s + 38.575μs
Note this!
A normal clock in GPS orbit will measure the duration of
one solar day to be 86400 s + 38.575 μs
These are seconds as defined by SI.
A clock on the ground will measure the duration of one day
to be 86400 s.
These are seconds as defined by SI.
You must have a serious reading comprehension problem since
you you missed this _very essential_ point!
As I explained it in the posting you now are responding to,
the adjusted clock will tick out 84400 shorted seconds
during one day which is (86400s + 38.575μs).
This means that it will stay in sync with the clock on the ground.
In a real GPS satellite the reference oscillator is adjusted down
by the factor (1-4.4647e-10) so it will measure the number of second
during a solar day to be (86400s + 38.575μs)*(1-4.4647e-10) = 86400s
So it will stay in sync with the ground clock.
You still don't get it, do you?
The frequency of the transmitted L1 is 1575.4199992966223 MHz.
During one day, which in the satellite is 86400.000038575 s,
the number of transmitted cycles is:
1575419999.2966223*86400.000038575 = 136116288000000 cycles
These cycles are reaching the ground during one day, which on
the ground is 86400 s. This means that the frequency on the ground
is 136116288000000/86400s = 1575420000.0 Hz = 1575.42 MHz
All the pulses that are emitted during one day, are reaching
the ground during one day. No pulses DISAPPEAR IN THIN AIR.
GR predicts that an SI-clock on the geoid will measure a mean solar day
to last the proper time 86400 s
GR predicts that an SI-clock in GPS orbit will measure a mean solar day
to last the proper time 86400*(1 + 4.4647e-10)s = 86400.000038575 s
Imbecile, to fulfill the prophecy of your cretin pagan god, the GPS SV
clock has to be switched to the M2 frequency BEING IN ORBIT, in order to
the L1 carrier be BLUESHIFTED when it reaches ground level (on any GPS receiver). THIS. PLUS the compensation for SR effects (which were never accounted by any of you two, idiot clones).
If M2 mode is switched ON before launch, the master frequency would be
LOWER than 10.23 Mhz while orbiting (REDSHIFTING). So, when associated
L1 carrier that is generated while in orbit reach ground level, it would suffer BLUESHIFTING, compensating for your alleged GR correction. It
would INVALIDATE the change to M2 frequency PRIOR TO LAUNCHING. Then,
when is the SV clock switched to M2?
PLUS, how does the SR effect work in non-inertial motion? The orbital
motion has an acceleration component, which doesn't exist under SR. But, SOMEHOW, the frequency received by the GPS receiver is claimed to be
EXACTLY 1575.42 MHz, which is locally regenerated and divided by 154, obtaining 10.23 Mhz at ground level (EXACTLY).
Your fucking theory has more holes than matter.
Plus, using a rubidium clock as a reference for 86,400 seconds in the SV settles any doubt about HOW a fucking day is measured in the SV and at
the Earth's station. No mistakes here, and the orbiting counter REGISTER
38.5 usec LESS, not more.
Imbeciles both of you. Inbreeding too much?
Below is an "SI-clock" a clock which is calibrated according to SI.
That means that it per definition advances one second per second.
On Fri, 21 Mar 2025 22:27:40 +0000, Maciej Wozniak wrote:
To fulfill the prophecy of the idiot -
the clock should be left alone, without
any corrections. GPS wouldn't work, but
what a magnificient symmetry we would
have instead.
I agree with the comment about that clocks should be left alone. THEY
ARE, and the stupid myth that relativistic corrections are required is
just that, A MYTH.
Plus, another observation: It's claimed by relativists that, thanks to
that correction, the received L1 carrier on any GPS receiver ALLOWS to recover the
master TCXO frequency of 10.23000000 Mhz, which is used to CORRECT the frequency of the ordinary crystal oscillator of the GPS receiver, so it
can TIME the arrival of the MARKS.
What is curious is that the MYTH of the 38.5 us compensation (calculated
via Schwarzchild for ONE SATELLITE) is enough to explain WHY
RELATIVISTIC GPS WORKS.
But, in the REAL WORLD, even the cheapest GPS receiver use the L1 signal
OF FOUR SATELLITES, at any given instant. The line of sight RECEIVER-
GPS SV is tilted wrt the tangent of the orbital path, and last only a
short time at a valid angle of +/- 40° with respect to the projection of
the Earth's radius above your head, After that time, the receiver
engages with OTHER GPS SV.
I wonder how the retarded relativists explain the impact of each of the
daily 38.5 usec applied to FOUR SATELLITES, being that the angle of
reception is extremely variable and last only a few minutes.
All what you read is the fucking explanation about ONE SATELLITE and its effect on the error in alignment, DISMISSING the complex matrix based
math of trilateration.
But, I guess, details are much less important than REPEAT AS A PARROT
the same shit for decades.
Dear FULLY RETARDED Paul. I've extracted this part from your last post,
as A SAMPLE OF YOUR COMPLETE IGNORANCE, IDIOCY AND INDOCTRINATION.
I told you that the GPS 10.23 Mhz is REGENERATED from the L1 received
carrier IN ANY GPS RECEIVER, which has a CHEAPER TCXO oscillator. This recovery, made through PLL and filtering, is ESSENTIAL for the receiver
TO TIME THE ARRIVAL OF MARKS EMBEDDED IN THE L1 CARRIER.
As you are A COMPLETE ASSHOLE, 100% IMBECILE AND LIVE WITH AN
INCREASINGLY FOSSILIZED BRAIN, I let that ChatGPT speak for me.
Quoting Paul: **********************************************************************
The rate adjustment is made to make the SV clock be in sync to UTC.
Since all frequencies in the SV are derived from the same frequency
standard which is adjusted down by ((1-4.4669e-1), this has
the secondary effect that the L1 carrier is emitted as
1575.4199992966223 MHz, and will be 1575.42 MHz measured by UTC.
When the carrier reaches the receiver it is Doppler shifted
up to Δf/f = ± 1e-7 , up to 200 times the GR correction.
The frequency of the carrier is irrelevant, the receiver
must have bandwidth enough to receive the carriers from
up to 12 satellites. The carriers are all Doppler shifted
differently. > The satellites are not separated by their frequency, but
by their PRN sequence.
**********************************************************************
If there is any doubt, IMBECILE PAUL, this is the answer to the same question, given by DeepSeek. Notice subtle enhancements to the answer of ChatGPT.
Don't choke, asshole.
------------------------------------------------------------------
Hi. Can you tell me how any GPS receiver recovers the
10.23 Mhz TCXO frequency of the GPS satellite from the reception of the
L1 carrier?
Certainly! The process of recovering the 10.23 MHz TCXO (Temperature Compensated Crystal Oscillator) frequency from the L1 carrier in a GPS receiver involves several steps. Here's a high-level overview of how
this is typically done:
1. Signal Reception and Downconversion
The GPS receiver first captures the L1 carrier signal, which is
transmitted at 1575.42 MHz.
This signal is then downconverted to an intermediate frequency (IF)
using a local oscillator (LO) in the receiver. The downconversion
process mixes the L1 signal with the LO signal to produce a lower
frequency signal that is easier to process.
2. Carrier Phase Locking
The receiver uses a Phase-Locked Loop (PLL) to lock onto the carrier frequency of the downconverted signal. The PLL adjusts the frequency of
a Voltage-Controlled Oscillator (VCO) to match the phase and frequency
of the incoming signal.
Once locked, the PLL can track the carrier frequency very precisely,
even in the presence of Doppler shifts caused by the relative motion
between the satellite and the receiver.
3. Extracting the Navigation Message
The L1 carrier is modulated with both the C/A (Coarse/Acquisition) code
and the P (Precise) code, as well as the navigation message.
The receiver demodulates the signal to extract the navigation message,
which contains information about the satellite's orbit, clock
corrections, and other data necessary for positioning.
4. Recovering the 10.23 MHz Clock
The 10.23 MHz frequency is the fundamental clock rate used by the GPS satellites to generate both the C/A code and the P code.
The receiver knows that the C/A code is generated at a rate of 1.023
MHz, which is exactly 1/10th of the 10.23 MHz clock.
By locking onto the C/A code and measuring its chip rate, the receiver
can infer the 10.23 MHz clock rate. This is because the C/A code's chip
rate is directly derived from the 10.23 MHz clock.
5. Synchronization and Tracking
The receiver uses the recovered 10.23 MHz clock to synchronize its
internal clock with the satellite's clock. This synchronization is
crucial for accurate ranging and positioning.
The receiver continuously tracks the carrier phase and the code phase to maintain synchronization with the satellite's signal.
6. Doppler Correction
The receiver also compensates for Doppler shifts, which affect both the carrier frequency and the code rate. The Doppler shift is caused by the relative motion between the satellite and the receiver.
By accurately tracking the Doppler shift, the receiver can maintain
precise synchronization with the satellite's 10.23 MHz clock.
7. Time Recovery
The receiver uses the recovered 10.23 MHz clock to reconstruct the
precise timing information necessary for calculating the time of flight
of the signal from the satellite to the receiver.
This timing information is essential for determining the receiver's
position.
Summary
In summary, the GPS receiver recovers the 10.23 MHz TCXO frequency by
locking onto the L1 carrier, demodulating the C/A code, and using the
known relationship between the C/A code rate (1.023 MHz) and the 10.23
MHz clock. The receiver then uses this recovered clock to synchronize
its internal timing and accurately determine its position.
This process involves sophisticated signal processing techniques,
including phase locking, code correlation, and Doppler correction, all
of which are implemented in the receiver's hardware and software.
------------------------------------------------------------------
Now go to your church of the pagan cult of relativity to cry, KING OF ASSHOLES!
Den 22.03.2025 22:10, skrev rhertz:
Dear FULLY RETARDED Paul. I've extracted this part from your last post,
as A SAMPLE OF YOUR COMPLETE IGNORANCE, IDIOCY AND INDOCTRINATION.
I told you that the GPS 10.23 Mhz is REGENERATED from the L1 received
carrier IN ANY GPS RECEIVER, which has a CHEAPER TCXO oscillator. This
recovery, made through PLL and filtering, is ESSENTIAL for the receiver
TO TIME THE ARRIVAL OF MARKS EMBEDDED IN THE L1 CARRIER.
As you are A COMPLETE ASSHOLE, 100% IMBECILE AND LIVE WITH AN
INCREASINGLY FOSSILIZED BRAIN, I let that ChatGPT speak for me.
Quoting Paul:
**********************************************************************
The rate adjustment is made to make the SV clock be in sync to UTC.
Since all frequencies in the SV are derived from the same frequency
standard which is adjusted down by ((1-4.4669e-1), this has
the secondary effect that the L1 carrier is emitted as
1575.4199992966223 MHz, and will be 1575.42 MHz measured by UTC.
When the carrier reaches the receiver it is Doppler shifted
up to Δf/f = ± 1e-7 , up to 200 times the GR correction.
The frequency of the carrier is irrelevant, the receiver
must have bandwidth enough to receive the carriers from
up to 12 satellites. The carriers are all Doppler shifted
differently. > The satellites are not separated by their frequency, but
by their PRN sequence.
**********************************************************************
Can you point out why the above is wrong?
Switching to DEEPSEEK:
Den 23.03.2025 00:12, skrev rhertz:
If there is any doubt, IMBECILE PAUL, this is the answer to the same
question, given by DeepSeek. Notice subtle enhancements to the answer of
ChatGPT.
Don't choke, asshole.
------------------------------------------------------------------
Hi. Can you tell me how any GPS receiver recovers the
10.23 Mhz TCXO frequency of the GPS satellite from the reception of the
L1 carrier?
Note that you ask as if it is a fact that the receiver recovers the
10.23 MHz TCXO frequency of the GPS satellite from the reception of the
L1 carrier.
But there is no Temperature Compensated Crystal Oscillator in the
GPS SV. It is a VCXO (Voltage Controlled Crystal Oscillator)
in the phase locked loop in the frequency synthesiser, and the
frequency of this is 10.2299999954326 MHz.
I asked to DeepSeek to analyze this comment that you did:
QUESTION; -----------------------------------------------------------------------
I'm discussing this matter with a relativist, in a physics forum. Can
you tell me what you think of this comment of him?: COMMENT: "ROFL
Definitely one of you better misconception!
Do you really, seriously believe that 'relativists' claim that
the receiver can measure the frequency of the L1 carrier to be
1575.42 MHz = 154*10.23 MHz and can use this to recover the
master TCXO frequency of 10.23000000 Mhz? :-D
You claim to be an engineer and must understand that it is
no way a GPS receiver can measure the L1 frequency with any precision
better than ~ 1575420000 ±150 Hz.
But you believe that 'relativists' claim they can measure the frequency
of L1 to be 1575420000 ±0.025 Hz!
DEEPSEEK ANSWER:
----------------------------------------------------------
5. Conclusion
The commenter is correct that directly measuring the L1 frequency with a precision of ±0.025 Hz is unrealistic for a GPS receiver.
On Mon, 24 Mar 2025 13:03:34 +0000, Paul.B.Andersen wrote:
DEEPSEEK ANSWER:
----------------------------------------------------------
5. Conclusion The commenter is correct that directly measuring the L1
frequency with a
precision of ±0.025 Hz is unrealistic for a GPS receiver.
Imbecile, I was working with spread spectrum transmission when you were
The next phase, involving RECURSIVE ALGORITHMS for refinement of FOUR
DATA SETS start, which involves matrix operation and feedback. After
three or four steps in the math of trilateration, the EXACT POSITION of
the GPS receiver is obtained (within the error margins for such
operation with only one carrier: L1).
On Mon, 24 Mar 2025 13:03:34 +0000, Paul.B.Andersen wrote:
Den 23.03.2025 00:12, skrev rhertz:
I asked to DeepSeek to analyze this comment that you did:
QUESTION;
-----------------------------------------------------------------------
I'm discussing this matter with a relativist, in a physics forum. Can
you tell me what you think of this comment of him?: COMMENT: "ROFL
Definitely one of you better misconception!
Do you really, seriously believe that 'relativists' claim that
the receiver can measure the frequency of the L1 carrier to be
1575.42 MHz = 154*10.23 MHz and can use this to recover the
master TCXO frequency of 10.23000000 Mhz? :-D
You claim to be an engineer and must understand that it is
no way a GPS receiver can measure the L1 frequency with any precision
better than ~ 1575420000 ±150 Hz.
But you believe that 'relativists' claim they can measure the frequency
of L1 to be 1575420000 ±0.025 Hz!
DEEPSEEK ANSWER:
----------------------------------------------------------
5. Conclusion
The commenter is correct that directly measuring the L1 frequency with a >>> precision of ±0.025 Hz is unrealistic for a GPS receiver.
Imbecile, I was working with spread spectrum transmission when you were learning how did a germanium transistor worked (circa 1980).
It evolved,
using digital encoding of data, 20 years later into what was known as 2G
CDMA transmissions for mobile telephony, competing with the European 2G
GSM (based on frequency multiplexing), which won the commercial race in
just 4 years, by 2004.
Every one of the 33+ GPS SV uses THE SAME L1 frequency, which means that
any GPS receiver has to separate the signals of each SV by tracking the distinctive PRN code of each satellite for coarse demodulation.
To do
so, the L1 frequency at the GPS receiver HAS TO BE DETECTED AND
MULTIPLIED BY A LOCAL SIGNAL OF ABOUT 120 x 10.23 Mhz,
which is
generated within the receiver from the LOCAL TCXO oscillator of 10.23
Mhz.
This heterodyne technique allows each GPS SV L1 signal to be
transported (by analog multiplication) to a suitable IF filter of about
400 Mhz,
where each signal is digitized and sent to the DSP to extract
the stream of chirps at 1.023 Mhz, and to start the correlation process
that allows the GPS receiver TO EXTRACT EACH INDIVIDUAL SIGNATURE of the received GPS SV.
The FOUR RECOVERED SIGNALS WITH THE HIGHER SNR are selected to process
and identify the signature of the four GPS SV, which are locally stored
in the GPS receiver memory.
Then, a sophisticated process of tracking of each of the four baseband signals start, in order TO CALCULATE the almost exact time of arrival of
each mark.
The next phase, involving RECURSIVE ALGORITHMS for refinement of FOUR
DATA SETS start, which involves matrix operation and feedback. After
three or four steps in the math of trilateration, the EXACT POSITION of
the GPS receiver is obtained (within the error margins for such
operation with only one carrier: L1).
If more precision is required, other carrier frequencies (L2, etc.) are
used, allowing accuracy of cm in the position of the receiver. If more
than 4 SV are used, the mathematics of trilateration become more
complex, but accuracy increases (as well as the COST of the GPS
receiver).
The above explanation is to show your INFANTILE ATTITUDE by conveniently using ONLY PARTS of my posts.
It must be that you're living your second
childhood, as your are approaching senility.
The above PLUS that you're a fucking relativist, which uses the usual techniques of your people to DECEIVE, DISTORT, LIE, MOCK, CHANGE WHAT
WAS SAID/WRITTEN, ETC., because you all are a disgusting bunch of
FRAUDSTERS, that can't behave in any other way. You're BAD PEOPLE. You
always were.
| Sysop: | Keyop |
|---|---|
| Location: | Huddersfield, West Yorkshire, UK |
| Users: | 475 |
| Nodes: | 16 (1 / 15) |
| Uptime: | 65:16:05 |
| Calls: | 9,497 |
| Calls today: | 1 |
| Files: | 13,623 |
| Messages: | 6,124,947 |