XPost: alt.usage.english, soc.culture.france, soc.culture.french

Embonpoint is apparently defined as persons who
are considered larger than usual.

I don't know about the English use, but in French it designates a stomach larger than usual, typically at a male - the special rounded

shape that resembles a pregnant woman. -- Bertel Kolt, Denmark <<<


____________________________

[embonpoint] was once a completely positive term in France.
It literally translates to "in good point" and historically conveyed a
meaning of healthy weight, fullness, and even prosperity.

Here's why it was seen positively:

Scarcity and Strength: In the past, food scarcity was more common.

Embonpoint indicated someone had access to enough food to be
well-nourished and even robust, which was a sign of health and well-being.

Social Status: A fuller figure could also suggest wealth and
social status. Manual labor was more prevalent, and a thin physique
might be associated with the working class. Someone with embonpoint
might not have had to engage in strenuous physical activity to survive.

Over time, perceptions of body image have shifted in France, as elsewhere.

Today, embonpoint can still be used in a neutral way, but it can also
have a slightly negative connotation, suggesting someone is overweight.

A more positive term for someone who is pleasantly plump might be
**rond(e) **(round).

______________________________

The shift likely began sometime in the 19th century or even earlier.

Here's why:

Early Signs: By the 18th century, there's evidence of some
advocating for slimmer figures, particularly among the upper class. This suggests a potential beginning of a shift.


постепенное изменение (postupannoe izmenenie) ( постепенное изменение is
the Russian for gradual change, there is no direct equivalent in English
but it conveys the idea of a slow shift over time)


While a precise date is elusive, the gradual change in perception
likely happened between the 18th and 20th centuries.

______________________________________

The American shift in perception happened largely around 1950's-1970's
(the fashion model Twiggy) (Audrey Hepburn)


Here's why this era is significant:

Rise of "The Ideal Figure": The post-war era (post-WWII)
saw a boom in advertising and media. Images of thinness as the ideal
body type for women became increasingly prevalent. Fashion models like
Twiggy, known for her slender frame, became cultural icons.

Focus on Health and Fitness: There was a growing emphasis on
health and fitness during this period. Diet culture started to gain
momentum, with a focus on calorie counting and weight loss.

Shifting Standards of Beauty: Actresses like Audrey Hepburn,
known for her petite figure and gamine look, epitomized the new beauty standard. These cultural influences significantly impacted how Americans perceived healthy and attractive body types.

While there was certainly some body diversity before the 1950s, the
post-war era marked a more concentrated push towards a specific ideal of thinness, particularly for women. This shift continues to influence
perceptions of weight in the US today.

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XPost: alt.usage.english, soc.culture.france, soc.culture.french

HenHanna wrote:

Embonpoint is apparently defined as persons who
are considered larger than usual.

I don't know about the English use, but in French it designates a stomach larger than usual, typically at a male - the special rounded

shape that resembles a pregnant woman. -- Bertel Kolt, Denmark <<<

____________________________

[embonpoint] was once a completely positive term in France.
It literally translates to "in good point" and historically conveyed a
meaning of healthy weight, fullness, and even prosperity.

Here's why it was seen positively:

Scarcity and Strength: In the past, food scarcity was more common.

Embonpoint indicated someone had access to enough food to be
well-nourished and even robust, which was a sign of health and well-being.

Social Status: A fuller figure could also suggest wealth and
social status. Manual labor was more prevalent, and a thin physique
might be associated with the working class. Someone with embonpoint
might not have had to engage in strenuous physical activity to survive.

Over time, perceptions of body image have shifted in France, as elsewhere.

Today, embonpoint can still be used in a neutral way, but it can also
have a slightly negative connotation, suggesting someone is overweight.

A more positive term for someone who is pleasantly plump might be
**rond(e) **(round).

"bien-portant", which can refer either to someone who is doing well
or (euphemistically) who is portly is even more positive.

______________________________

The shift likely began sometime in the 19th century or even earlier.

Here's why:

Early Signs: By the 18th century, there's evidence of some
advocating for slimmer figures, particularly among the upper class. This suggests a potential beginning of a shift.

постепенное изменение (postupannoe izmenenie) ( постепенное изменение is
the Russian for gradual change, there is no direct equivalent in English
but it conveys the idea of a slow shift over time)

While a precise date is elusive, the gradual change in perception
likely happened between the 18th and 20th centuries.

______________________________________

The American shift in perception happened largely around 1950's-1970's
(the fashion model Twiggy) (Audrey Hepburn)

Here's why this era is significant:

Rise of "The Ideal Figure": The post-war era (post-WWII)
saw a boom in advertising and media. Images of thinness as the ideal
body type for women became increasingly prevalent. Fashion models like Twiggy, known for her slender frame, became cultural icons.

Focus on Health and Fitness: There was a growing emphasis on health and fitness during this period. Diet culture started to gain
momentum, with a focus on calorie counting and weight loss.

Shifting Standards of Beauty: Actresses like Audrey Hepburn, known for her petite figure and gamine look, epitomized the new beauty standard. These cultural influences significantly impacted how Americans perceived healthy and attractive body types.

While there was certainly some body diversity before the 1950s, the
post-war era marked a more concentrated push towards a specific ideal of thinness, particularly for women. This shift continues to influence perceptions of weight in the US today.

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XPost: alt.usage.english, soc.culture.france, soc.culture.french

Bebercito wrote:

HenHanna wrote:

Embonpoint is apparently defined as persons who
are considered larger than usual.

I don't know about the English use, but in French it designates a

stomach larger than usual, typically at a male - the special rounded
shape that resembles a pregnant woman. -- Bertel Kolt, Denmark <<<

____________________________

[embonpoint] was once a completely positive term in France.
It literally translates to "in good point" and historically conveyed a
meaning of healthy weight, fullness, and even prosperity.

Here's why it was seen positively:

Scarcity and Strength: In the past, food scarcity was more common.

Embonpoint indicated someone had access to enough food to be
well-nourished and even robust, which was a sign of health and well-being.

Social Status: A fuller figure could also suggest wealth and
social status. Manual labor was more prevalent, and a thin physique
might be associated with the working class. Someone with embonpoint
might not have had to engage in strenuous physical activity to survive.

Over time, perceptions of body image have shifted in France, as elsewhere.

Today, embonpoint can still be used in a neutral way, but it can also
have a slightly negative connotation, suggesting someone is overweight.

A more positive term for someone who is pleasantly plump might be
**rond(e) **(round).

"bien-portant", which can refer either to someone who is doing well
or (euphemistically) who is portly is even more positive.

Thanks!

my trusty volume (Harrap's Shorter ..., 1982) is too recent
to provide anything insightful

for Embonpoint , it just has:

Stoutness, plumpness,

to be stout, corpulent, fat.

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XPost: alt.usage.english, soc.culture.france, soc.culture.french

Le 08/05/2024 à 16:49, Bebercito a écrit :

HenHanna wrote:

Over time, perceptions of body image have shifted in France, as
elsewhere.

Today,  embonpoint can still be used in a neutral way, but it can also
have a slightly negative connotation, suggesting someone is overweight.

A more positive term for someone who is pleasantly plump might be
                            **rond(e)  **(round).

"bien-portant", which can refer either to someone who is doing well
or (euphemistically) who is portly is even more positive.

The word I seem to run across routinely in classic novels, generally
applied to bits of women (hands and arms), is 'potelé(e)' (plump). I
find this example in Sand:

« "N'est-il pas vrai, ma chère signora ?" ajouta-t-elle en
s'enhardissant jusqu'à presser doucement de sa /jolie main poteĺée/ le
bras languissant de Consuelo. » (My emphasis.)

And this one in Dumas:

« "Or", continua Aramis en prenant sur son fauteuil la même pose
gracieuse que s'il eût été dans une ruelle et en examinant avec
complaisance sa /main blanche et potelée/ comme une main de femme, qu’il tenait en l’air pour en faire descendre le sang: "or...". »

(I'd forgotten this about Aramis. I was expecting the adjective to be
applied to the charming Constance Bonacieux.)

I can't see the word being adopted into English, though.

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On 09/05/2024 07:07, Hibou wrote:

Le 08/05/2024 à 16:49, Bebercito a écrit :

Over time, perceptions of body image have shifted in France, as
elsewhere.

Today,  embonpoint can still be used in a neutral way, but it can
also have a slightly negative connotation, suggesting someone is
overweight.

A more positive term for someone who is pleasantly plump might be

                            **rond(e)  **(round). <snip>

The word I seem to run across routinely in classic novels, generally
applied to bits of women (hands and arms), is 'potelé(e)' (plump).

"pudgy" if you want to be cruel.

<Aramis>

I can't see the word being adopted into English, though.

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XPost: alt.usage.english, soc.culture.france, soc.culture.french

[embonpoint] was once a completely positive term in France.

esp. for Children (?), as in the following Poem from 1537 (?) by Clément Marot


A une Damoyselle malade

Ma mignonne,
Je vous donne
Le bon jour;
Le séjour
C’est prison.
Guérison
Recouvrez,
Puis ouvrez
Votre porte
Et qu’on sorte
Vitement,
Car Clément
Le vous mande.
Va, friande
De ta bouche,
Qui se couche
En danger
Pour manger
Confitures;
Si tu dures
Trop malade,
Couleur fade
Tu prendras,
Et perdras
L’embonpoint. <--------------
Dieu te doint
Santé bonne,
Ma mignonne.



Je vous donne Le bon jour; <---- this is like [I send you my Greetings] ???

or more literally like [I'll give you (a gift of) a Good-Day] ???




Tu prendras, Et perdras L’embonpoint. (future Tense) (future Tense) ?

Meaning-wise, This [prendras, Et] seems unnecessary... Do you agree?

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Bebercito wrote: ...............

Si tu dures
Trop malade,
Couleur fade
Tu prendras,
Et perdras
L’embonpoint. <--------------
Dieu te doint
Santé bonne,
Ma mignonne.

Je vous donne Le bon jour; <---- this is like [I send you my Greetings] ???
or more literally like [I'll give you (a gift of) a Good-Day] ???

the various Eng. translations are all over the place on this.

Tu prendras, Et perdras L’embonpoint. (future Tense) (future Tense) ? >> Meaning-wise, This [prendras, Et] seems unnecessary... Do you agree?

No, because "tu prendras" and "tu perdras" don't go together. Actually, "Couleur fade
Tu prendras" is an anastrophe for "Tu prendras (une) couleur fade". Without the "Et",
the lines could be understood as "Tu prendras l'embonpoint et tu perdras l'embonpoint",
which is not the intended meaning.

thank you!!!! my go-to ref. (Handlist) has:

anastrophe: unusual arrangement of words or clauses within a sentence, often for poetic effect.

------- which (at first) was sometimes a SHOW-OFF...
Look here... I'm really writing this in Latin!



Anastrophe (a NA stro phe; G. "turning back") — Perversio; Reversio.

1. Kind of Hyperbaton: unusual arrangement of words or clauses
within a sentence, often for metrical convenience or poetic effect:

Yet I'll not shed her blood,
Nor scar that whiter skin of hers than snow.
(Othello, V, ii)


Quintilian would confine anastrophe to a transposition of two
words only, a pattern Puttenham mocks with "In my years lusty,
many a deed doughty did I."


2. Anadiplosis. See also Hysteron proteron.

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XPost: alt.usage.english, soc.culture.france, soc.culture.french

HenHanna wrote:

[embonpoint] was once a completely positive term in France.

esp. for Children (?), as in the following Poem from 1537 (?) by Clément Marot

A une Damoyselle malade

Ma mignonne,
Je vous donne
Le bon jour;
Le séjour
C’est prison.
Guérison
Recouvrez,
Puis ouvrez
Votre porte
Et qu’on sorte
Vitement,
Car Clément
Le vous mande.
Va, friande
De ta bouche,
Qui se couche
En danger
Pour manger
Confitures;
Si tu dures
Trop malade,
Couleur fade
Tu prendras,
Et perdras
L’embonpoint. <--------------
Dieu te doint
Santé bonne,
Ma mignonne.

Je vous donne Le bon jour; <---- this is like [I send you my Greetings] ???

or more literally like [I'll give you (a gift of) a Good-Day] ???

Tu prendras, Et perdras L’embonpoint. (future Tense) (future Tense) ?

Meaning-wise, This [prendras, Et] seems unnecessary... Do you agree?

No, because "tu prendras" and "tu perdras" don't go together. Actually, "Couleur fade
Tu prendras" is an anastrophe for "Tu prendras (une) couleur fade". Without the "Et",
the lines could be understood as "Tu prendras l'embonpoint et tu perdras l'embonpoint",
which is not the intended meaning.

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