Sometimes people call the possessive form of English personalmoeders naam, >
pronouns a "genitive".
Hmm.
Some languages, such as German or Russian, distinguish between
(1) a personal pronoun in the genitive case, and
(2) a possessive, which is usually used as a determiner, but
can also stand alone, functioning as a pronoun. As a determiner,
it agrees in gender/number/case with the possessed.
From that point of view, the possessive forms of English pronouns
look more like, well, possessives than actual genitive pronouns;
the latter would appear after some prepositions or as genitive
objects after certain verbs.
However, Indo-European originally only had possessives for the first
and second person as well as a reflexive possessive. There was no third-person possessive and (presumably) the genitive of personal
pronouns filled this role. That's still the state in modern Russian.
Old English was similar, except that the reflexive was missing.
(So etymologically speaking, "my, thy, our, your" are possessives,
"his, her" are genitives. I'd have to look up "their", which is
borrowed anyway, and "its" is a relatively new formation.)
So what's required for a form to be called a "genitive"?
I used English as an example, but the question could also be extended
to Dutch and Scandinavian, I think, and beyond.
There's also the related question whether you call English "'s" a
genitive or a possessive clitic.
Op 7/12/2023 om 19:13 schreef Christian Weisgerber:
Sometimes people call the possessive form of English personalmoeders naam, >
pronouns a "genitive".
Hmm.
Some languages, such as German or Russian, distinguish between
(1) a personal pronoun in the genitive case, and
(2) a possessive, which is usually used as a determiner, but
can also stand alone, functioning as a pronoun. As a determiner,
it agrees in gender/number/case with the possessed.
From that point of view, the possessive forms of English pronouns
look more like, well, possessives than actual genitive pronouns;
the latter would appear after some prepositions or as genitive
objects after certain verbs.
However, Indo-European originally only had possessives for the first
and second person as well as a reflexive possessive. There was no
third-person possessive and (presumably) the genitive of personal
pronouns filled this role. That's still the state in modern Russian.
Old English was similar, except that the reflexive was missing.
(So etymologically speaking, "my, thy, our, your" are possessives,
"his, her" are genitives. I'd have to look up "their", which is
borrowed anyway, and "its" is a relatively new formation.)
So what's required for a form to be called a "genitive"?
I used English as an example, but the question could also be extended
to Dutch and Scandinavian, I think, and beyond.
There's also the related question whether you call English "'s" a
genitive or a possessive clitic.
And what's your take on that?
Originally it seems certainly a genitive ending. At least in German, and >Dutch:
Vaders naam, father's name,
can be seen as derived from a genitive construction like
In de naam des Vaders. Now: ... van de vader.
Earlier on it would still have been
's vaders naam.
Fossilised expressions still in use are, eg
's morgens, 's avonds, 's middags, 's maandags
(in the morning, evening, noon, on Mondays).
But since then we've got also
Moeders naam, mother's name,
and that one can't be derived from
De naam der moeder. Now: ... van de moeder.
"New" genitives?
There's also in Dutch the frequent use of inserted -s- in compound words >(besides -e-, -en-, -n-, -er-, or nothing).
Een moederskindje, a mother's child. But
een moederhart, a mother's heart.
Een vrouwspersoon, a female person, but
Vrouwenkleding, women's clothing.
De staatskas, the state('s) treasury...
Fri, 08 Dec 2023 09:02:39 +0100: Ruud Harmsen <rh@rudhar.com>
scribeva:
Thu, 7 Dec 2023 22:47:45 +0100: wugi <wugi@brol.invalid> scribeva:[...]
Op 7/12/2023 om 19:13 schreef Christian Weisgerber:
Sometimes people call the possessive form of English personal
pronouns a "genitive".
Een moederskindje, a mother's child. But
een moederhart, a mother's heart.
Een vrouwspersoon, a female person, but
Vrouwenkleding, women's clothing.
De staatskas, the state('s) treasury...
That latter kind of of -s-, strangely, tends to occur mostly with >>inherently female nouns, that end in -heid, -ing, etc. Also in German >>(which as you know is less permississive about gender than Dutch),
-ung, -keit, etc. So where does this -s- come from? Was is really some
sort of genitive in the past, or something completely different?
https://www.ernieramaker.nl/schrijfsels.php?tekst=henhun
(By former nl.taal contributor Ernie Ramaker, in Dutch, but perhaps
readible also to Christian, with or wihout the help of AI.)
==
De bezits-s die bij eigennamen gebruikt kan worden (Peters fiets),
wordt vaak genitief-s genoemd, maar dat is onterecht. Het is een
partikel.
[...]
Het Nederlandse gebruik van de bezits-s ligt veel dichter bij het
Deense gebruik dan het IJslandse.
==
(Jan Peter (double first name) Balkenende (surname) is a former Dutch >prime-minister.)
The English "Peter’s bike" seems similar, so there too, ’s might be >called a particle rather than a case ending. Cf.
Theresa May’s government
vs.
*Theresa’s May’s government.
Thu, 7 Dec 2023 22:47:45 +0100: wugi <wugi@brol.invalid> scribeva:[...]
Op 7/12/2023 om 19:13 schreef Christian Weisgerber:
Sometimes people call the possessive form of English personal
pronouns a "genitive".
Een moederskindje, a mother's child. But
een moederhart, a mother's heart.
Een vrouwspersoon, a female person, but
Vrouwenkleding, women's clothing.
De staatskas, the state('s) treasury...
That latter kind of of -s-, strangely, tends to occur mostly with
inherently female nouns, that end in -heid, -ing, etc. Also in German
(which as you know is less permississive about gender than Dutch),
-ung, -keit, etc. So where does this -s- come from? Was is really some
sort of genitive in the past, or something completely different?
https://www.ernieramaker.nl/schrijfsels.php?tekst=henhun
There's also in Dutch the frequent use of inserted -s- in compound words
(besides -e-, -en-, -n-, -er-, or nothing).
"Fugenlaute" in German.
There's also the related question whether you call English "'s" a
genitive or a possessive clitic.
And what's your take on that?
There's also in Dutch the frequent use of inserted -s- in compound words (besides -e-, -en-, -n-, -er-, or nothing).
https://www.ernieramaker.nl/schrijfsels.php?tekst=henhun
(By former nl.taal contributor Ernie Ramaker, in Dutch, but perhaps
readible also to Christian, with or wihout the help of AI.)
On 2023-12-08, Christian Weisgerber <naddy@mips.inka.de> wrote:
There's also in Dutch the frequent use of inserted -s- in compound words >>> (besides -e-, -en-, -n-, -er-, or nothing).
"Fugenlaute" in German.
Or "Fugenelemente".
PS:
The best treatment of the topic I've found so far is this paper by >Nübling/Szczepaniak:
Linking elements in German: Origin, Change, Functionalization >https://www.germanistik.uni-mainz.de/files/2015/03/Nuebling_Szczepaniak_2013_lin
king_elements_grammaticalization.pdf
I assume it will mostly apply to Dutch as well.
Fri, 8 Dec 2023 16:06:08 -0000 (UTC): Christian Weisgerber <naddy@mips.inka.de> scribeva:
On 2023-12-08, Christian Weisgerber <naddy@mips.inka.de> wrote:
There's also in Dutch the frequent use of inserted -s- in compound words >>>> (besides -e-, -en-, -n-, -er-, or nothing).
"Fugenlaute" in German.
Or "Fugenelemente".
PS:
The best treatment of the topic I've found so far is this paper by
Nübling/Szczepaniak:
Linking elements in German: Origin, Change, Functionalization
https://www.germanistik.uni-mainz.de/files/2015/03/Nuebling_Szczepaniak_2013_lin
king_elements_grammaticalization.pdf
I assume it will mostly apply to Dutch as well.
Heldendaad, kindergezicht, also in Dutch.
And the relative unpredictability, I think he meant:
eiwit en eigeel, eierdop
kalverliefde, kalfsgebraad
moederliefde, moederskind
kindvrouwtje, kindsdeel, kindertijd
volke[re]nbond; volkenkunde; volkskunde, volkswagen ;)
troonrede, troonsafstand
staatkunde, staatsman
vrouwmens, vrouwspersoon, vrouwenzaken
A recent issue is the mess of using (or refusing to do so) the
prescribed tussen-n, which moreover is hardly ever pronounced:
ruggengraat (back-bone; only 1 back, but seemingly plural; before: >ruggegraat)
with the necessary exceptions of course:
zonnecrème (only 1 Sun)
maneschijn (only 1 Moon)
ruggengraat, because only ruggen
Conclusion: It's a crazy rule!
(Anyway, there's worse things going on in contemporary Dutch, such as
the mess amongst gender and number of nouns and corresponding pronouns
and verbs; the hypercorrections of assimilation in pronunciation; ...).
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