Today's Le Figaro includes a witty and intelligent article by Christian Merlin on the tendency for orchestras to appoint much younger conductors than they used to do, no doubt inspired by the appointment of Klaus Makela to the Orchestre de Paris:

"Il y a quelques années, quand l’administrateur du Boston Symphony consultait ses musiciens sur les chefs qu’ils aimeraient inviter, il les suppliait: «De grâce, proposez-moi des chefs de moins de 70 ans!» Serait-on tombé dans l’extrême
inverse en prenant les maestros au berceau? Klaus Mäkelä avait 24 ans lorsqu’il a été nommé à l’Orchestre de Paris. Son compatriote finlandais, Tarmo Peltokoski, en a 22 et vient d’être choisi par l’Orchestre national du Capitole de
Toulouse.

Ce jeunisme de la baguette pose question car la direction d’orchestre est la discipline musicale qui impose la maturation la plus lente. Parce que le chef, par définition, ne peut pratiquer son instrument à la maison. Parce que ce métier repose au
moins autant sur l’art de convaincre que sur la maîtrise d’un savoir-faire, exigeant psychologie et sens des ressources humaines au moins autant que compétence technique. Sans parler de la connaissance d’un vaste répertoire, la meilleure maniè
re de s’imposer face à un collectif étant de maîtriser son sujet. Autant de raisons qui font que le musicien d’orchestre aura plus tendance à faire confiance à un homme de métier plutôt qu’à un blanc-bec qui vous explique comment interpré
ter une œuvre que vous avez déjà jouée quatre-vingt-douze fois.

.....

D’un autre côté, la fonction a beaucoup évolué depuis les Ormandy, Mravinsky, Karajan, despotes à vie. Le directeur musical est beaucoup moins présent, les mariages durent moins longtemps. Quant à l’apprentissage qui se faisait sur le tas, il
est devenu plus systématique: le Sistema vénézuélien, d’où est issu Gustavo Dudamel, ou l’école finlandaise inspirée par Jorma Panula, donnent la possibilité aux apprentis chefs de se colleter très tôt à de nombreux orchestres, si bien qu�
�à 19 ans Mikko Franck avaient déjà plus d’heures de vol que bien des trentenaires.

Ce qui frappe chez les Mäkelä, Shani, Grazinyte-Tyla, Hrusa, Rouvali ou Lorenzo Viotti, nommé à 29 ans à l’Opéra d’Amsterdam, c’est leur tête bien faite. Ces jeunes gens ne se laissent pas griser, ils savent ce qu’ils veulent et nous
impressionnent par leur organisation mentale autant que par leur talent. À ceux qui trouvent que c’est risqué de nommer un très jeune chef à Toulouse, on rappellera que Tugan Sokhiev avait 28 ans quand il y a été choisi… Mais on l’a fait en
ayant l’intelligence de tabler sur une marge de progression plutôt que de presser le citron: seul moyen d’éviter d’exploser en vol! Car n’oublions pas que cela reste un parcours de longue haleine."

Andrew Clarke
Canberra

--- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
* Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)

On Sunday, January 22, 2023 at 7:21:23 PM UTC-8, andrewc...@gmail.com wrote:

Today's Le Figaro includes a witty and intelligent article by Christian Merlin on the tendency for orchestras to appoint much younger conductors than they used to do, no doubt inspired by the appointment of Klaus Makela to the Orchestre de Paris:

"Il y a quelques années, quand l’administrateur du Boston Symphony consultait ses musiciens sur les chefs qu’ils aimeraient inviter, il les suppliait: «De grâce, proposez-moi des chefs de moins de 70 ans!» Serait-on tombé dans l’extrême

inverse en prenant les maestros au berceau? Klaus Mäkelä avait 24 ans lorsqu’il a été nommé à l’Orchestre de Paris. Son compatriote finlandais, Tarmo Peltokoski, en a 22 et vient d’être choisi par l’Orchestre national du Capitole de
Toulouse.

Ce jeunisme de la baguette pose question car la direction d’orchestre est la discipline musicale qui impose la maturation la plus lente. Parce que le chef, par définition, ne peut pratiquer son instrument à la maison. Parce que ce métier repose au

moins autant sur l’art de convaincre que sur la maîtrise d’un savoir-faire, exigeant psychologie et sens des ressources humaines au moins autant que compétence technique. Sans parler de la connaissance d’un vaste répertoire, la meilleure maniè
re de s’imposer face à un collectif étant de maîtriser son sujet. Autant de raisons qui font que le musicien d’orchestre aura plus tendance à faire confiance à un homme de métier plutôt qu’à un blanc-bec qui vous explique comment interpré
ter une œuvre que vous avez déjà jouée quatre-vingt-douze fois.

.....

D’un autre côté, la fonction a beaucoup évolué depuis les Ormandy, Mravinsky, Karajan, despotes à vie. Le directeur musical est beaucoup moins présent, les mariages durent moins longtemps. Quant à l’apprentissage qui se faisait sur le tas,

il est devenu plus systématique: le Sistema vénézuélien, d’où est issu Gustavo Dudamel, ou l’école finlandaise inspirée par Jorma Panula, donnent la possibilité aux apprentis chefs de se colleter très tôt à de nombreux orchestres, si bien
qu’à 19 ans Mikko Franck avaient déjà plus d’heures de vol que bien des trentenaires.

Ce qui frappe chez les Mäkelä, Shani, Grazinyte-Tyla, Hrusa, Rouvali ou Lorenzo Viotti, nommé à 29 ans à l’Opéra d’Amsterdam, c’est leur tête bien faite. Ces jeunes gens ne se laissent pas griser, ils savent ce qu’ils veulent et nous

impressionnent par leur organisation mentale autant que par leur talent. À ceux qui trouvent que c’est risqué de nommer un très jeune chef à Toulouse, on rappellera que Tugan Sokhiev avait 28 ans quand il y a été choisi… Mais on l’a fait en
ayant l’intelligence de tabler sur une marge de progression plutôt que de presser le citron: seul moyen d’éviter d’exploser en vol! Car n’oublions pas que cela reste un parcours de longue haleine."

Andrew Clarke
Canberra

https://groups.google.com/u/1/g/rec.music.classical/c/oIjsYoGfpG8

--- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
* Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)

On Monday, January 23, 2023 at 11:18:40 PM UTC+11, Andrew Clarke wrote:

On Monday, January 23, 2023 at 8:03:58 PM UTC+11, gggg gggg wrote:

On Sunday, January 22, 2023 at 7:21:23 PM UTC-8, andrewc...@gmail.com wrote:

Today's Le Figaro includes a witty and intelligent article by Christian Merlin on the tendency for orchestras to appoint much younger conductors than they used to do, no doubt inspired by the appointment of Klaus Makela to the Orchestre de Paris:

"Il y a quelques années, quand l’administrateur du Boston Symphony consultait ses musiciens sur les chefs qu’ils aimeraient inviter, il les suppliait: «De grâce, proposez-moi des chefs de moins de 70 ans!» Serait-on tombé dans l’extrême

inverse en prenant les maestros au berceau? Klaus Mäkelä avait 24 ans lorsqu’il a été nommé à l’Orchestre de Paris. Son compatriote finlandais, Tarmo Peltokoski, en a 22 et vient d’être choisi par l’Orchestre national du Capitole de
Toulouse.

Ce jeunisme de la baguette pose question car la direction d’orchestre est la discipline musicale qui impose la maturation la plus lente. Parce que le chef, par définition, ne peut pratiquer son instrument à la maison. Parce que ce métier

repose au moins autant sur l’art de convaincre que sur la maîtrise d’un savoir-faire, exigeant psychologie et sens des ressources humaines au moins autant que compétence technique. Sans parler de la connaissance d’un vaste répertoire, la
meilleure manière de s’imposer face à un collectif étant de maîtriser son sujet. Autant de raisons qui font que le musicien d’orchestre aura plus tendance à faire confiance à un homme de métier plutôt qu’à un blanc-bec qui vous explique
comment interpréter une œuvre que vous avez déjà jouée quatre-vingt-douze fois.

.....

D’un autre côté, la fonction a beaucoup évolué depuis les Ormandy, Mravinsky, Karajan, despotes à vie. Le directeur musical est beaucoup moins présent, les mariages durent moins longtemps. Quant à l’apprentissage qui se faisait sur le

tas, il est devenu plus systématique: le Sistema vénézuélien, d’où est issu Gustavo Dudamel, ou l’école finlandaise inspirée par Jorma Panula, donnent la possibilité aux apprentis chefs de se colleter très tôt à de nombreux orchestres, si
bien qu’à 19 ans Mikko Franck avaient déjà plus d’heures de vol que bien des trentenaires.

Ce qui frappe chez les Mäkelä, Shani, Grazinyte-Tyla, Hrusa, Rouvali ou Lorenzo Viotti, nommé à 29 ans à l’Opéra d’Amsterdam, c’est leur tête bien faite. Ces jeunes gens ne se laissent pas griser, ils savent ce qu’ils veulent et nous

impressionnent par leur organisation mentale autant que par leur talent. À ceux qui trouvent que c’est risqué de nommer un très jeune chef à Toulouse, on rappellera que Tugan Sokhiev avait 28 ans quand il y a été choisi… Mais on l’a fait en
ayant l’intelligence de tabler sur une marge de progression plutôt que de presser le citron: seul moyen d’éviter d’exploser en vol! Car n’oublions pas que cela reste un parcours de longue haleine."

Andrew Clarke
Canberra

https://groups.google.com/u/1/g/rec.music.classical/c/oIjsYoGfpG8

I followed the link to Alex Ross of the New Yorker,

< https://www.newyorker.com/magazine/2022/12/26/looking-past-the-celebrity-conductor >

who finds signs of immaturity on every page of Mr Makela's recent Sibelius cycle, although he does admit that orchestras seem to enjoy playing for the man. He much prefers Ms Xian Zhang, who may well be a brilliant conductor, but I suspect that she

ticks a lot of the right non-musical boxes, being non-Caucasian, non-male, non-dictatorial and conducting in New Jersey. He does advise Ms Yang to follow in the footsteps of Marin Alsop at Baltimore and stay with one orchestra for years and years, just
like Fritz Reiner at Cleveland, although it must be pointed out that Ms Alsop was regarded as sub-par when she was appointed to Baltimore, and that all her more celebrated recordings were made in the UK or Germany. And indeed if Ms Zhang wants to be
heard outside the USA she had better follow in Ms Alsop's footsteps, because she'll never make any recordings unless she goes to Europe, and I, together with thousands of others, will never get a chance to hear her.

Mr Ross also informs us elsewhere that

"The difficult thing about music writing, in the end, is not to describe a sound but to describe a human being."

I wish I could understand this apercu. I really do. I'm not sure I understand what the Cleveland's "culture of lyrical perfection" means either: perhaps you had to be there at the time?

Andrew Clarke
Canberra

It was of course George Szell who stayed at the Cleveland for years and years and was immortalised by that orchestra's culture of lyrical perfection. Apologies to Mr Reiner.

AC
C

--- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
* Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)

On Monday, January 23, 2023 at 8:03:58 PM UTC+11, gggg gggg wrote:

On Sunday, January 22, 2023 at 7:21:23 PM UTC-8, andrewc...@gmail.com wrote:

Today's Le Figaro includes a witty and intelligent article by Christian Merlin on the tendency for orchestras to appoint much younger conductors than they used to do, no doubt inspired by the appointment of Klaus Makela to the Orchestre de Paris:

"Il y a quelques années, quand l’administrateur du Boston Symphony consultait ses musiciens sur les chefs qu’ils aimeraient inviter, il les suppliait: «De grâce, proposez-moi des chefs de moins de 70 ans!» Serait-on tombé dans l’extrême

inverse en prenant les maestros au berceau? Klaus Mäkelä avait 24 ans lorsqu’il a été nommé à l’Orchestre de Paris. Son compatriote finlandais, Tarmo Peltokoski, en a 22 et vient d’être choisi par l’Orchestre national du Capitole de
Toulouse.

Ce jeunisme de la baguette pose question car la direction d’orchestre est la discipline musicale qui impose la maturation la plus lente. Parce que le chef, par définition, ne peut pratiquer son instrument à la maison. Parce que ce métier repose

au moins autant sur l’art de convaincre que sur la maîtrise d’un savoir-faire, exigeant psychologie et sens des ressources humaines au moins autant que compétence technique. Sans parler de la connaissance d’un vaste répertoire, la meilleure mani�
�re de s’imposer face à un collectif étant de maîtriser son sujet. Autant de raisons qui font que le musicien d’orchestre aura plus tendance à faire confiance à un homme de métier plutôt qu’à un blanc-bec qui vous explique comment interpré
ter une œuvre que vous avez déjà jouée quatre-vingt-douze fois.

.....

D’un autre côté, la fonction a beaucoup évolué depuis les Ormandy, Mravinsky, Karajan, despotes à vie. Le directeur musical est beaucoup moins présent, les mariages durent moins longtemps. Quant à l’apprentissage qui se faisait sur le tas,

il est devenu plus systématique: le Sistema vénézuélien, d’où est issu Gustavo Dudamel, ou l’école finlandaise inspirée par Jorma Panula, donnent la possibilité aux apprentis chefs de se colleter très tôt à de nombreux orchestres, si bien
qu’à 19 ans Mikko Franck avaient déjà plus d’heures de vol que bien des trentenaires.

Ce qui frappe chez les Mäkelä, Shani, Grazinyte-Tyla, Hrusa, Rouvali ou Lorenzo Viotti, nommé à 29 ans à l’Opéra d’Amsterdam, c’est leur tête bien faite. Ces jeunes gens ne se laissent pas griser, ils savent ce qu’ils veulent et nous

impressionnent par leur organisation mentale autant que par leur talent. À ceux qui trouvent que c’est risqué de nommer un très jeune chef à Toulouse, on rappellera que Tugan Sokhiev avait 28 ans quand il y a été choisi… Mais on l’a fait en
ayant l’intelligence de tabler sur une marge de progression plutôt que de presser le citron: seul moyen d’éviter d’exploser en vol! Car n’oublions pas que cela reste un parcours de longue haleine."

Andrew Clarke
Canberra

https://groups.google.com/u/1/g/rec.music.classical/c/oIjsYoGfpG8

I followed the link to Alex Ross of the New Yorker,

< https://www.newyorker.com/magazine/2022/12/26/looking-past-the-celebrity-conductor >

who finds signs of immaturity on every page of Mr Makela's recent Sibelius cycle, although he does admit that orchestras seem to enjoy playing for the man. He much prefers Ms Xian Zhang, who may well be a brilliant conductor, but I suspect that she ticks
a lot of the right non-musical boxes, being non-Caucasian, non-male, non-dictatorial and conducting in New Jersey. He does advise Ms Yang to follow in the footsteps of Marin Alsop at Baltimore and stay with one orchestra for years and years, just like
Fritz Reiner at Cleveland, although it must be pointed out that Ms Alsop was regarded as sub-par when she was appointed to Baltimore, and that all her more celebrated recordings were made in the UK or Germany. And indeed if Ms Zhang wants to be heard
outside the USA she had better follow in Ms Alsop's footsteps, because she'll never make any recordings unless she goes to Europe, and I, together with thousands of others, will never get a chance to hear her.

Mr Ross also informs us elsewhere that

"The difficult thing about music writing, in the end, is not to describe a sound but to describe a human being."

I wish I could understand this apercu. I really do. I'm not sure I understand what the Cleveland's "culture of lyrical perfection" means either: perhaps you had to be there at the time?

Andrew Clarke
Canberra

--- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
* Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)

On Sunday, January 22, 2023 at 7:21:23 PM UTC-8, andrewc...@gmail.com wrote:

Today's Le Figaro includes a witty and intelligent article by Christian Merlin on the tendency for orchestras to appoint much younger conductors than they used to do, no doubt inspired by the appointment of Klaus Makela to the Orchestre de Paris:

"Il y a quelques années, quand l’administrateur du Boston Symphony consultait ses musiciens sur les chefs qu’ils aimeraient inviter, il les suppliait: «De grâce, proposez-moi des chefs de moins de 70 ans!» Serait-on tombé dans l’extrême

inverse en prenant les maestros au berceau? Klaus Mäkelä avait 24 ans lorsqu’il a été nommé à l’Orchestre de Paris. Son compatriote finlandais, Tarmo Peltokoski, en a 22 et vient d’être choisi par l’Orchestre national du Capitole de
Toulouse.

Ce jeunisme de la baguette pose question car la direction d’orchestre est la discipline musicale qui impose la maturation la plus lente. Parce que le chef, par définition, ne peut pratiquer son instrument à la maison. Parce que ce métier repose au

moins autant sur l’art de convaincre que sur la maîtrise d’un savoir-faire, exigeant psychologie et sens des ressources humaines au moins autant que compétence technique. Sans parler de la connaissance d’un vaste répertoire, la meilleure maniè
re de s’imposer face à un collectif étant de maîtriser son sujet. Autant de raisons qui font que le musicien d’orchestre aura plus tendance à faire confiance à un homme de métier plutôt qu’à un blanc-bec qui vous explique comment interpré
ter une œuvre que vous avez déjà jouée quatre-vingt-douze fois.

.....

D’un autre côté, la fonction a beaucoup évolué depuis les Ormandy, Mravinsky, Karajan, despotes à vie. Le directeur musical est beaucoup moins présent, les mariages durent moins longtemps. Quant à l’apprentissage qui se faisait sur le tas,

il est devenu plus systématique: le Sistema vénézuélien, d’où est issu Gustavo Dudamel, ou l’école finlandaise inspirée par Jorma Panula, donnent la possibilité aux apprentis chefs de se colleter très tôt à de nombreux orchestres, si bien
qu’à 19 ans Mikko Franck avaient déjà plus d’heures de vol que bien des trentenaires.

Ce qui frappe chez les Mäkelä, Shani, Grazinyte-Tyla, Hrusa, Rouvali ou Lorenzo Viotti, nommé à 29 ans à l’Opéra d’Amsterdam, c’est leur tête bien faite. Ces jeunes gens ne se laissent pas griser, ils savent ce qu’ils veulent et nous

impressionnent par leur organisation mentale autant que par leur talent. À ceux qui trouvent que c’est risqué de nommer un très jeune chef à Toulouse, on rappellera que Tugan Sokhiev avait 28 ans quand il y a été choisi… Mais on l’a fait en
ayant l’intelligence de tabler sur une marge de progression plutôt que de presser le citron: seul moyen d’éviter d’exploser en vol! Car n’oublions pas que cela reste un parcours de longue haleine."


French rubbish.

dk

--- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
* Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)

On Monday, January 23, 2023 at 4:18:40 AM UTC-8, andrewc...@gmail.com wrote:

I'm not sure I understand what the
Cleveland's "culture of lyrical perfection"
means either: perhaps you had to be
there at the time?

Perfectly polished dry sound. The
Cleveland has always been the
dryest sounding of the "Big 5".

Is it coincidence the top US
orchestras are collectively
referred to as a sport goods
store?

dk

--- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
* Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)

On Tuesday, 24 January 2023 at 15:18:38 UTC+11, dan....gmail.com wrote:

On Monday, January 23, 2023 at 4:18:40 AM UTC-8, andrewc...gmail.com wrote:

I'm not sure I understand what the
Cleveland's "culture of lyrical perfection"
means either: perhaps you had to be
there at the time?

Perfectly polished dry sound. The
Cleveland has always been the
dryest sounding of the "Big 5".

dk

Partly because of Severance Hall, and CBS close miking. However, I always regarded the sound as among the best of its time, and of course Szell was a master conductor.

"In 1958, at the prompting of music director George Szell, an acoustical redesign of the hall was undertaken. To make the auditorium more resonant, the original proscenium and blue velvet curtains were removed and the use of carpet was reduced to a
minimum. On the stage, a permanent acoustical shell was built — affectionately known as “The Szell Shell” — which consisted of thick wooden walls formed in a series of convex curves. To make the walls less absorbent and more reflective of sound,
they were filled with sand. The result was a more vibrant-sounding space which complemented the Orchestra’s tone under Szell's direction.", as per Wiki.

The old "Szell Shell" has since been replaced by another newer shell, and maybe those close to its home can further inform us.

Ray Hall, Taree

--- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
* Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)

On Monday, January 23, 2023 at 8:35:00 PM UTC-8, raymond....@gmail.com wrote:

On Tuesday, 24 January 2023 at 15:18:38 UTC+11, dan....gmail.com wrote:

On Monday, January 23, 2023 at 4:18:40 AM UTC-8, andrewc...gmail.com wrote:

I'm not sure I understand what the
Cleveland's "culture of lyrical perfection"
means either: perhaps you had to be
there at the time?

Perfectly polished dry sound. The
Cleveland has always been the
dryest sounding of the "Big 5".

Partly because of Severance Hall, and
CBS close miking. However, I always
regarded the sound as among the best
of its time,

That time has passed. Music halls ought
to be designed for all times, not just for
their time. Dry sounding halls attract
dry sounding conductors, like that
Dohnányi guy.

Severance Hall would be a great
venue for a car showroom.

dk

--- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
* Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)

On Tuesday, January 24, 2023 at 3:35:00 PM UTC+11, raymond....@gmail.com wrote:

On Tuesday, 24 January 2023 at 15:18:38 UTC+11, dan....gmail.com wrote:

On Monday, January 23, 2023 at 4:18:40 AM UTC-8, andrewc...gmail.com wrote:

I'm not sure I understand what the
Cleveland's "culture of lyrical perfection"
means either: perhaps you had to be
there at the time?

Perfectly polished dry sound. The
Cleveland has always been the
dryest sounding of the "Big 5".
dk

Partly because of Severance Hall, and CBS close miking. However, I always regarded the sound as among the best of its time, and of course Szell was a master conductor.

"In 1958, at the prompting of music director George Szell, an acoustical redesign of the hall was undertaken. To make the auditorium more resonant, the original proscenium and blue velvet curtains were removed and the use of carpet was reduced to a

minimum. On the stage, a permanent acoustical shell was built — affectionately known as “The Szell Shell” — which consisted of thick wooden walls formed in a series of convex curves. To make the walls less absorbent and more reflective of sound,
they were filled with sand. The result was a more vibrant-sounding space which complemented the Orchestra’s tone under Szell's direction.", as per Wiki.

The old "Szell Shell" has since been replaced by another newer shell, and maybe those close to its home can further inform us.

Ray Hall, Taree

So the Hard Szell has been replaced by the Soft Szell? But where does the "lyrical perfection" come in?

Andrew Clarke
Canberra

--- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
* Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)

On Tuesday, 24 January 2023 at 17:27:05 UTC+11, andrewc...gmail.com wrote:

On Tuesday, January 24, 2023 at 3:35:00 PM UTC+11, raymond....gmail.com wrote:

On Tuesday, 24 January 2023 at 15:18:38 UTC+11, dan....gmail.com wrote:

On Monday, January 23, 2023 at 4:18:40 AM UTC-8, andrewc...gmail.com wrote:

I'm not sure I understand what the
Cleveland's "culture of lyrical perfection"
means either: perhaps you had to be
there at the time?

Perfectly polished dry sound. The
Cleveland has always been the
dryest sounding of the "Big 5".
dk

Partly because of Severance Hall, and CBS close miking. However, I always regarded the sound as among the best of its time, and of course Szell was a master conductor.

"In 1958, at the prompting of music director George Szell, an acoustical redesign of the hall was undertaken. To make the auditorium more resonant, the original proscenium and blue velvet curtains were removed and the use of carpet was reduced to a

minimum. On the stage, a permanent acoustical shell was built — affectionately known as “The Szell Shell” — which consisted of thick wooden walls formed in a series of convex curves. To make the walls less absorbent and more reflective of sound,
they were filled with sand. The result was a more vibrant-sounding space which complemented the Orchestra’s tone under Szell's direction.", as per Wiki.

The old "Szell Shell" has since been replaced by another newer shell, and maybe those close to its home can further inform us.

Ray Hall, Taree

So the Hard Szell has been replaced by the Soft Szell? But where does the "lyrical perfection" come in?

Andrew Clarke
Canberra

Szell never messed with the music, and was highly precisional, but this never meant that he didn't phrase passages. He was aided by an orchestra built to be precise. There are few today remotely in his class.

Ray Hall, Taree

--- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
* Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)

On Tuesday, January 24, 2023 at 3:15:09 PM UTC+11, dan....@gmail.com wrote:

On Sunday, January 22, 2023 at 7:21:23 PM UTC-8, andrewc...@gmail.com wrote:

Today's Le Figaro includes a witty and intelligent article by Christian Merlin on the tendency for orchestras to appoint much younger conductors than they used to do, no doubt inspired by the appointment of Klaus Makela to the Orchestre de Paris:

"Il y a quelques années, quand l’administrateur du Boston Symphony consultait ses musiciens sur les chefs qu’ils aimeraient inviter, il les suppliait: «De grâce, proposez-moi des chefs de moins de 70 ans!» Serait-on tombé dans l’extrême

inverse en prenant les maestros au berceau? Klaus Mäkelä avait 24 ans lorsqu’il a été nommé à l’Orchestre de Paris. Son compatriote finlandais, Tarmo Peltokoski, en a 22 et vient d’être choisi par l’Orchestre national du Capitole de
Toulouse.

Ce jeunisme de la baguette pose question car la direction d’orchestre est la discipline musicale qui impose la maturation la plus lente. Parce que le chef, par définition, ne peut pratiquer son instrument à la maison. Parce que ce métier repose

au moins autant sur l’art de convaincre que sur la maîtrise d’un savoir-faire, exigeant psychologie et sens des ressources humaines au moins autant que compétence technique. Sans parler de la connaissance d’un vaste répertoire, la meilleure mani�
�re de s’imposer face à un collectif étant de maîtriser son sujet. Autant de raisons qui font que le musicien d’orchestre aura plus tendance à faire confiance à un homme de métier plutôt qu’à un blanc-bec qui vous explique comment interpré
ter une œuvre que vous avez déjà jouée quatre-vingt-douze fois.

.....

D’un autre côté, la fonction a beaucoup évolué depuis les Ormandy, Mravinsky, Karajan, despotes à vie. Le directeur musical est beaucoup moins présent, les mariages durent moins longtemps. Quant à l’apprentissage qui se faisait sur le tas,

il est devenu plus systématique: le Sistema vénézuélien, d’où est issu Gustavo Dudamel, ou l’école finlandaise inspirée par Jorma Panula, donnent la possibilité aux apprentis chefs de se colleter très tôt à de nombreux orchestres, si bien
qu’à 19 ans Mikko Franck avaient déjà plus d’heures de vol que bien des trentenaires.

Ce qui frappe chez les Mäkelä, Shani, Grazinyte-Tyla, Hrusa, Rouvali ou Lorenzo Viotti, nommé à 29 ans à l’Opéra d’Amsterdam, c’est leur tête bien faite. Ces jeunes gens ne se laissent pas griser, ils savent ce qu’ils veulent et nous

impressionnent par leur organisation mentale autant que par leur talent. À ceux qui trouvent que c’est risqué de nommer un très jeune chef à Toulouse, on rappellera que Tugan Sokhiev avait 28 ans quand il y a été choisi… Mais on l’a fait en
ayant l’intelligence de tabler sur une marge de progression plutôt que de presser le citron: seul moyen d’éviter d’exploser en vol! Car n’oublions pas que cela reste un parcours de longue haleine."

French rubbish.

dk

It's Plato and Aristotle combined, compared to Alex Ross. I have visions of the leader of the Oslo Philharmonic toddling up to the conductor at least once a page, and saying, "Klaus, we can't possibly play it this way. That's just sophomoric."

Andrew Clarke
Canberra

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On Tuesday, January 24, 2023 at 5:47:52 PM UTC+11, raymond....@gmail.com wrote:

On Tuesday, 24 January 2023 at 17:27:05 UTC+11, andrewc...gmail.com wrote:

On Tuesday, January 24, 2023 at 3:35:00 PM UTC+11, raymond....gmail.com wrote:

On Tuesday, 24 January 2023 at 15:18:38 UTC+11, dan....gmail.com wrote:

On Monday, January 23, 2023 at 4:18:40 AM UTC-8, andrewc...gmail.com wrote:

I'm not sure I understand what the
Cleveland's "culture of lyrical perfection"
means either: perhaps you had to be
there at the time?

Perfectly polished dry sound. The
Cleveland has always been the
dryest sounding of the "Big 5".
dk

Partly because of Severance Hall, and CBS close miking. However, I always regarded the sound as among the best of its time, and of course Szell was a master conductor.

"In 1958, at the prompting of music director George Szell, an acoustical redesign of the hall was undertaken. To make the auditorium more resonant, the original proscenium and blue velvet curtains were removed and the use of carpet was reduced to a

minimum. On the stage, a permanent acoustical shell was built — affectionately known as “The Szell Shell” — which consisted of thick wooden walls formed in a series of convex curves. To make the walls less absorbent and more reflective of sound,
they were filled with sand. The result was a more vibrant-sounding space which complemented the Orchestra’s tone under Szell's direction.", as per Wiki.

The old "Szell Shell" has since been replaced by another newer shell, and maybe those close to its home can further inform us.

Ray Hall, Taree

So the Hard Szell has been replaced by the Soft Szell? But where does the "lyrical perfection" come in?

Andrew Clarke
Canberra

Szell never messed with the music, and was highly precisional, but this never meant that he didn't phrase passages. He was aided by an orchestra built to be precise. There are few today remotely in his class.

Ray Hall, Taree

Well, maybe these weren't representative of his best recordings, or maybe, as Dan has suggested, we do things differently now, but I used to own a couple of the Szell/Cleveland Brahms symphonies on Sony Classical, and to me they didn't sound like a
culture of lyrical perfection. They sounded dry and dead. Chacun a son gout.

Andrew Clarke
Canberra

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On Wednesday, 25 January 2023 at 23:20:29 UTC+11, andrewc...gmail.com wrote:

On Tuesday, January 24, 2023 at 5:47:52 PM UTC+11, raymond....gmail.com wrote:

On Tuesday, 24 January 2023 at 17:27:05 UTC+11, andrewc...gmail.com wrote:

On Tuesday, January 24, 2023 at 3:35:00 PM UTC+11, raymond....gmail.com wrote:

On Tuesday, 24 January 2023 at 15:18:38 UTC+11, dan....gmail.com wrote:

On Monday, January 23, 2023 at 4:18:40 AM UTC-8, andrewc...gmail.com wrote:

I'm not sure I understand what the
Cleveland's "culture of lyrical perfection"
means either: perhaps you had to be
there at the time?

Perfectly polished dry sound. The
Cleveland has always been the
dryest sounding of the "Big 5".
dk

Partly because of Severance Hall, and CBS close miking. However, I always regarded the sound as among the best of its time, and of course Szell was a master conductor.

"In 1958, at the prompting of music director George Szell, an acoustical redesign of the hall was undertaken. To make the auditorium more resonant, the original proscenium and blue velvet curtains were removed and the use of carpet was reduced to

a minimum. On the stage, a permanent acoustical shell was built — affectionately known as “The Szell Shell” — which consisted of thick wooden walls formed in a series of convex curves. To make the walls less absorbent and more reflective of sound,
they were filled with sand. The result was a more vibrant-sounding space which complemented the Orchestra’s tone under Szell's direction.", as per Wiki.

The old "Szell Shell" has since been replaced by another newer shell, and maybe those close to its home can further inform us.

Ray Hall, Taree

So the Hard Szell has been replaced by the Soft Szell? But where does the "lyrical perfection" come in?

Andrew Clarke
Canberra

Szell never messed with the music, and was highly precisional, but this never meant that he didn't phrase passages. He was aided by an orchestra built to be precise. There are few today remotely in his class.

Ray Hall, Taree

Well, maybe these weren't representative of his best recordings, or maybe, as Dan has suggested, we do things differently now, but I used to own a couple of the Szell/Cleveland Brahms symphonies on Sony Classical, and to me they didn't sound like a

culture of lyrical perfection. They sounded dry and dead. Chacun a son gout.

Andrew Clarke
Canberra

Partly because of the dry acoustic, and partly because I don't think of Szell as someone to turn to for Brahms. Brahms needs all the help he can get from those with the right sympathies.

In Bartok, Dvorak (Slavonic Dances), William Walton (2nd Symphony, Hindemith Variations), Tchaik 4, he could be excellent. Add his Schumann symphonies also. And I also think his LvB symphonies and overtures are well up there too, very strong and direct,
way before the present generation of conductors started pratting about with them.
Add a fine Mahler 6 too. I don't think his Bruckner was up to very much.

Ray Hall, Taree

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On Wednesday, January 25, 2023 at 4:20:29 AM UTC-8, andrewc...@gmail.com wrote:

On Tuesday, January 24, 2023 at 5:47:52 PM UTC+11, raymond....@gmail.com wrote:

Szell never messed with the music, and was highly
precisional, but this never meant that he didn't phrase
passages. He was aided by an orchestra built to be
precise. There are few today remotely in his class.

Tomomi. And I believe you actually meant "precise",
not "precisional". No such word in English, at least
not on this side of the moat.

Well, maybe these weren't representative of his
best recordings, or maybe, as Dan has suggested,
we do things differently now, but I used to own a
couple of the Szell/Cleveland Brahms symphonies
on Sony Classical, and to me they didn't sound like a
culture of lyrical perfection. They sounded dry and
dead. Chacun a son gout.

I actually like some of Szell's recordings. Haydn,
Mahler 6 and 10, Prokofiev 5, Sibelius 2, and even
Brahms' Haydn Variations.

For more information about Szell's szellish ways read https://slippedisc.com/2018/08/was-georg-szell-as-horrid-as-described/

dk

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dan....@gmail.com schrieb am Donnerstag, 26. Januar 2023 um 07:25:10 UTC+1:

On Wednesday, January 25, 2023 at 4:20:29 AM UTC-8, andrewc...@gmail.com wrote:

On Tuesday, January 24, 2023 at 5:47:52 PM UTC+11, raymond....@gmail.com wrote:

Szell never messed with the music, and was highly
precisional, but this never meant that he didn't phrase
passages. He was aided by an orchestra built to be
precise. There are few today remotely in his class.

Tomomi. And I believe you actually meant "precise",
not "precisional". No such word in English, at least
not on this side of the moat.

Well, maybe these weren't representative of his
best recordings, or maybe, as Dan has suggested,
we do things differently now, but I used to own a
couple of the Szell/Cleveland Brahms symphonies
on Sony Classical, and to me they didn't sound like a
culture of lyrical perfection. They sounded dry and
dead. Chacun a son gout.

I actually like some of Szell's recordings. Haydn,
Mahler 6 and 10, Prokofiev 5, Sibelius 2, and even
Brahms' Haydn Variations.

I think you are right wrt Szell's Haydn. Szell and Bernstein, and also Scherchen, seem to be my favorite conductors when it comes to Haydn Symphonies - would have to listen to Jochum again, but I wasn't as impressed with him as with the other three, and
I can't think of anyone else coming close to them. Thanks for brining Szell's Haydn to my attention again.

His Prokofiev 5 might really be the best, but I'm not interested in the piece. His Mahler 6 is okay, likely one of the best recordings, but the probem is, there just exists no really good recording of Mahler 6...
In 10 - if I remember correctly - he is actually really good and it's probably the best recording out there.

For more information about Szell's szellish ways read https://slippedisc.com/2018/08/was-georg-szell-as-horrid-as-described/

dk

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On Thursday, 26 January 2023 at 17:25:10 UTC+11, dan....gmail.com wrote:

On Wednesday, January 25, 2023 at 4:20:29 AM UTC-8, andrewc...gmail.com wrote:

On Tuesday, January 24, 2023 at 5:47:52 PM UTC+11, raymond....gmail.com wrote:

Szell never messed with the music, and was highly
precisional, but this never meant that he didn't phrase
passages. He was aided by an orchestra built to be
precise. There are few today remotely in his class.

Tomomi. And I believe you actually meant "precise",
not "precisional". No such word in English, at least
not on this side of the moat.

Well, maybe these weren't representative of his
best recordings, or maybe, as Dan has suggested,
we do things differently now, but I used to own a
couple of the Szell/Cleveland Brahms symphonies
on Sony Classical, and to me they didn't sound like a
culture of lyrical perfection. They sounded dry and
dead. Chacun a son gout.

I actually like some of Szell's recordings. Haydn,
Mahler 6 and 10, Prokofiev 5, Sibelius 2, and even
Brahms' Haydn Variations.

For more information about Szell's szellish ways read https://slippedisc.com/2018/08/was-georg-szell-as-horrid-as-described/

dk

A good article. It is debatable as to whether Reiner or Szell, were the most feared among the two big midwest orchestras.

Both were involved in some great recordings.

Ray Hall, Taree

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On Thursday, January 26, 2023 at 12:12:26 AM UTC-8, Marc S wrote:

dan....@gmail.com schrieb am Donnerstag, 26. Januar 2023 um 07:25:10 UTC+1:

I actually like some of Szell's recordings. Haydn,
Mahler 6 and 10, Prokofiev 5, Sibelius 2, and even
Brahms' Haydn Variations.

I think you are right wrt Szell's Haydn. Szell and Bernstein,

I am always right -- it is the First Commandment! ;-)

and also Scherchen, seem to be my favorite conductors when
it comes to Haydn Symphonies - would have to listen to Jochum
again, but I wasn't as impressed with him as with the other three,
and I can't think of anyone else coming close to them. Thanks for
brining Szell's Haydn to my attention again.

His Prokofiev 5 might really be the best, but I'm not interested in
the piece. His Mahler 6 is okay, likely one of the best recordings,
but the probem is, there just exists no really good recording of
Mahler 6...

Horenstein:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rRDZswVLeZA

And Lenny did it again! ;-)

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=goXH3NUhUFk

dk

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On Saturday, January 28, 2023 at 10:12:45 PM UTC-8, Dan Koren wrote:

On Thursday, January 26, 2023 at 12:12:26 AM UTC-8, Marc S wrote:

dan....@gmail.com schrieb am Donnerstag, 26. Januar 2023 um 07:25:10 UTC+1:

I actually like some of Szell's recordings. Haydn,
Mahler 6 and 10, Prokofiev 5, Sibelius 2, and even
Brahms' Haydn Variations.

I think you are right wrt Szell's Haydn. Szell and Bernstein,

I am always right -- it is the First Commandment! ;-)

and also Scherchen, seem to be my favorite conductors when
it comes to Haydn Symphonies - would have to listen to Jochum
again, but I wasn't as impressed with him as with the other three,
and I can't think of anyone else coming close to them. Thanks for
brining Szell's Haydn to my attention again.

His Prokofiev 5 might really be the best, but I'm not interested in
the piece. His Mahler 6 is okay, likely one of the best recordings,
but the probem is, there just exists no really good recording of
Mahler 6...

Horenstein:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rRDZswVLeZA

And Lenny did it again! ;-)

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=goXH3NUhUFk

Also Barbirolli, just pick one of
several available recordings.

Melmoth's Scherchen also
recorded it -- way too fast.

dk

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dan....@gmail.com schrieb am Sonntag, 29. Januar 2023 um 07:41:33 UTC+1:

On Saturday, January 28, 2023 at 10:12:45 PM UTC-8, Dan Koren wrote:

On Thursday, January 26, 2023 at 12:12:26 AM UTC-8, Marc S wrote:

dan....@gmail.com schrieb am Donnerstag, 26. Januar 2023 um 07:25:10 UTC+1:

I actually like some of Szell's recordings. Haydn,
Mahler 6 and 10, Prokofiev 5, Sibelius 2, and even
Brahms' Haydn Variations.

I think you are right wrt Szell's Haydn. Szell and Bernstein,

I am always right -- it is the First Commandment! ;-)

and also Scherchen, seem to be my favorite conductors when
it comes to Haydn Symphonies - would have to listen to Jochum
again, but I wasn't as impressed with him as with the other three,
and I can't think of anyone else coming close to them. Thanks for
brining Szell's Haydn to my attention again.

His Prokofiev 5 might really be the best, but I'm not interested in
the piece. His Mahler 6 is okay, likely one of the best recordings,
but the probem is, there just exists no really good recording of
Mahler 6...

Horenstein:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rRDZswVLeZA

And Lenny did it again! ;-)

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=goXH3NUhUFk

Also Barbirolli, just pick one of
several available recordings.

Now you have mentioned it... I don't like it. Too slow maybe, and just too heavy.

Melmoth's Scherchen also
recorded it -- way too fast.

Yes. I agree.

dk

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dan....@gmail.com schrieb am Sonntag, 29. Januar 2023 um 07:12:45 UTC+1:

On Thursday, January 26, 2023 at 12:12:26 AM UTC-8, Marc S wrote:

dan....@gmail.com schrieb am Donnerstag, 26. Januar 2023 um 07:25:10 UTC+1:

I actually like some of Szell's recordings. Haydn,
Mahler 6 and 10, Prokofiev 5, Sibelius 2, and even
Brahms' Haydn Variations.

I think you are right wrt Szell's Haydn. Szell and Bernstein,

I am always right -- it is the First Commandment! ;-)

and also Scherchen, seem to be my favorite conductors when
it comes to Haydn Symphonies - would have to listen to Jochum
again, but I wasn't as impressed with him as with the other three,
and I can't think of anyone else coming close to them. Thanks for
brining Szell's Haydn to my attention again.

His Prokofiev 5 might really be the best, but I'm not interested in
the piece. His Mahler 6 is okay, likely one of the best recordings,
but the probem is, there just exists no really good recording of
Mahler 6...

Horenstein:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rRDZswVLeZA

I also had Horenstein on my mind when writing this, but I remember I had some issues with his as well - and I think I preferred Szell. It's been a while though.

And Lenny did it again! ;-)

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=goXH3NUhUFk

If this is the same as his DG release, I also had some issues with it - and I think it's already evident in the beginning, Bernstein is often too fast (similar to Koussevitzky - just listen to Koussevitzky in Tchaikovsky 5 and how he rushes after the
intro; it's similar imo to how Bernstein rushes in the beginning here - I usually don't care for indications such as "Allegro energico ma non troppo" if it sounds good, but the "ma non troppo" seems to be the thing missing with Bernstein, it's a tad too
fast. Would have to relisten though.

dk

At least you are not mentioning Barbirolli... don't like him much.

Probably Szell, Bernstein and Horenstein are the best in this piece - I must say though, I am not a big fan of this piece; I like other Mahler pieces more.

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Marc S schrieb am Sonntag, 29. Januar 2023 um 07:50:37 UTC+1:

dan....@gmail.com schrieb am Sonntag, 29. Januar 2023 um 07:12:45 UTC+1:

On Thursday, January 26, 2023 at 12:12:26 AM UTC-8, Marc S wrote:

dan....@gmail.com schrieb am Donnerstag, 26. Januar 2023 um 07:25:10 UTC+1:

I actually like some of Szell's recordings. Haydn,
Mahler 6 and 10, Prokofiev 5, Sibelius 2, and even
Brahms' Haydn Variations.

I think you are right wrt Szell's Haydn. Szell and Bernstein,

I am always right -- it is the First Commandment! ;-)

and also Scherchen, seem to be my favorite conductors when
it comes to Haydn Symphonies - would have to listen to Jochum
again, but I wasn't as impressed with him as with the other three,
and I can't think of anyone else coming close to them. Thanks for brining Szell's Haydn to my attention again.

His Prokofiev 5 might really be the best, but I'm not interested in
the piece. His Mahler 6 is okay, likely one of the best recordings,
but the probem is, there just exists no really good recording of
Mahler 6...

Horenstein:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rRDZswVLeZA

I also had Horenstein on my mind when writing this, but I remember I had some issues with his as well - and I think I preferred Szell. It's been a while though.

And Lenny did it again! ;-)

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=goXH3NUhUFk

If this is the same as his DG release, I also had some issues with it - and I think it's already evident in the beginning, Bernstein is often too fast (similar to Koussevitzky - just listen to Koussevitzky in Tchaikovsky 5 and how he rushes after the

intro; it's similar imo to how Bernstein rushes in the beginning here - I usually don't care for indications such as "Allegro energico ma non troppo" if it sounds good, but the "ma non troppo" seems to be the thing missing with Bernstein, it's a tad too
fast. Would have to relisten though.

The ma non troppo refers to both I guess, "allegro" and "energico". Wouldn't matter if it sounded good, but it just doesn't.

dk

At least you are not mentioning Barbirolli... don't like him much.

Probably Szell, Bernstein and Horenstein are the best in this piece - I must say though, I am not a big fan of this piece; I like other Mahler pieces more.

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On Saturday, January 28, 2023 at 11:03:20 PM UTC-8, Marc S wrote:

The ma non troppo refers to both
I guess, "allegro" and "energico".

Nope. It only refers to "Allegro". It
reads like this:
(Allegro (energico ma non troppo))

"Energico" and "ma non troppo"
both qualify "Allegro". Spend
some time on the other side
of the Alps and try to forget
German.

dk

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dan....@gmail.com schrieb am Sonntag, 29. Januar 2023 um 08:27:34 UTC+1:

On Saturday, January 28, 2023 at 11:03:20 PM UTC-8, Marc S wrote:

The ma non troppo refers to both
I guess, "allegro" and "energico".

Nope. It only refers to "Allegro". It
reads like this:
(Allegro (energico ma non troppo))

"Energico" and "ma non troppo"
both qualify "Allegro". Spend
some time on the other side
of the Alps and try to forget
German.

dk

You are ofc wrong again. No wonder, coming from a guy who has more issues with people liking German composers, than with people - like Andy - propagating antisemitic sentiments.

It reads "Allegro energico, ma non troppo" - see:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hoVnIDmuwLw

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dan....@gmail.com schrieb am Sonntag, 29. Januar 2023 um 09:45:06 UTC+1:

On Saturday, January 28, 2023 at 11:37:54 PM UTC-8, Marc S wrote:

dan....@gmail.com schrieb am Sonntag, 29. Januar 2023 um 08:27:34 UTC+1:

On Saturday, January 28, 2023 at 11:03:20 PM UTC-8, Marc S wrote:

The ma non troppo refers to both
I guess, "allegro" and "energico".

Nope. It only refers to "Allegro". It
reads like this:
(Allegro (energico ma non troppo))

"Energico" and "ma non troppo"
both qualify "Allegro". Spend
some time on the other side
of the Alps and try to forget
German.

You are ofc wrong again. No wonder,
coming from a guy who has more
issues with people liking German
composers, than with people - like
Andy - propagating antisemitic
sentiments.

It reads "Allegro energico, ma non troppo"

"ma non troppo" still qualifies only
"Allegro", regardless of the comma.
You just don't understand Romance
languages.

dk

Certainly I am not going to take your words for it, you gambled away your credibility long ago.

Believe whatever your deluded mind wants to believe, just as that Andy is a "nice guy" - hahaha.

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Il se trouve que Dan Koren a formul� :

Melmoth's Scherchen also
recorded it -- way too fast.

Yes...HS recorded all these GM symphonies, except the 4th...
His vision is incredibly personal and original (like almost everything
he played)...
His 6th has always been repudiated by the musical presse, whose
recurrent conservatism is well known...Obviously, as often, he makes
cuts (at least twenty minutes, in the 1st movement, the andante and the finale)...Which has for me a striking REEQUILIBRATION of the work...
Moreover, he inverts the respective placxes of the scherzo and the
andante, and his tempos are vertiginous !...As always, it is advisable
to listen, to listen and to listen again to these symphonies by HS to appreciate them at their true measure: *GREAT" !...

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On Saturday, January 28, 2023 at 11:37:54 PM UTC-8, Marc S wrote:

dan....@gmail.com schrieb am Sonntag, 29. Januar 2023 um 08:27:34 UTC+1:

On Saturday, January 28, 2023 at 11:03:20 PM UTC-8, Marc S wrote:

The ma non troppo refers to both
I guess, "allegro" and "energico".

Nope. It only refers to "Allegro". It
reads like this:
(Allegro (energico ma non troppo))

"Energico" and "ma non troppo"
both qualify "Allegro". Spend
some time on the other side
of the Alps and try to forget
German.

You are ofc wrong again. No wonder,
coming from a guy who has more
issues with people liking German
composers, than with people - like
Andy - propagating antisemitic
sentiments.

It reads "Allegro energico, ma non troppo"

"ma non troppo" still qualifies only
"Allegro", regardless of the comma.
You just don't understand Romance
languages.

dk

--- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
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On Sunday, January 29, 2023 at 12:53:01 AM UTC-8, Marc S wrote:

dan....@gmail.com schrieb am Sonntag, 29. Januar 2023 um 09:45:06 UTC+1:

On Saturday, January 28, 2023 at 11:37:54 PM UTC-8, Marc S wrote:

It reads "Allegro energico, ma non troppo"

"ma non troppo" still qualifies only
"Allegro", regardless of the comma.
You just don't understand Romance
languages.

Certainly I am not going to take your
words for it, you gambled away your
credibility long ago. Believe whatever
your deluded mind wants to believe,

What an idiot asshole you are! I speak
Romanian, Italian, French and Spanish.

Imbecile kraut.

dk

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Dan Koren a formul� la demande :

Imbecile kraut.

This moronic is long gone to join ggggg in my manure pit !...

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On Sunday, January 29, 2023 at 1:52:21 AM UTC-8, MELMOTH wrote:

Dan Koren a formulé la demande :

Imbecile kraut.

This moronic is long gone to
join ggggg in my manure pit !...

You don't want him
to contaminate your
precious escargots!

dk

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On Tuesday, January 24, 2023 at 12:47:52 AM UTC-6, raymond....@gmail.com wrote:

On Tuesday, 24 January 2023 at 17:27:05 UTC+11, andrewc...gmail.com wrote:

On Tuesday, January 24, 2023 at 3:35:00 PM UTC+11, raymond....gmail.com wrote:

On Tuesday, 24 January 2023 at 15:18:38 UTC+11, dan....gmail.com wrote:

On Monday, January 23, 2023 at 4:18:40 AM UTC-8, andrewc...gmail.com wrote:

I'm not sure I understand what the
Cleveland's "culture of lyrical perfection"
means either: perhaps you had to be
there at the time?

Perfectly polished dry sound. The
Cleveland has always been the
dryest sounding of the "Big 5".
dk

Partly because of Severance Hall, and CBS close miking. However, I always regarded the sound as among the best of its time, and of course Szell was a master conductor.

"In 1958, at the prompting of music director George Szell, an acoustical redesign of the hall was undertaken. To make the auditorium more resonant, the original proscenium and blue velvet curtains were removed and the use of carpet was reduced to a

minimum. On the stage, a permanent acoustical shell was built — affectionately known as “The Szell Shell” — which consisted of thick wooden walls formed in a series of convex curves. To make the walls less absorbent and more reflective of sound,
they were filled with sand. The result was a more vibrant-sounding space which complemented the Orchestra’s tone under Szell's direction.", as per Wiki.

The old "Szell Shell" has since been replaced by another newer shell, and maybe those close to its home can further inform us.

Ray Hall, Taree

So the Hard Szell has been replaced by the Soft Szell? But where does the "lyrical perfection" come in?

Andrew Clarke
Canberra

Szell never messed with the music, and was highly precisional, but this never meant that he didn't phrase passages. He was aided by an orchestra built to be precise. There are few today remotely in his class.

Ray Hall, Taree

Szell "messed" with the orchestration of Schumann symphonies big time, particularly the 2nd. I can’t stand it, even though I enjoy a great number of his other performances.

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dan....@gmail.com schrieb am Sonntag, 29. Januar 2023 um 10:27:12 UTC+1:

On Sunday, January 29, 2023 at 12:53:01 AM UTC-8, Marc S wrote:

dan....@gmail.com schrieb am Sonntag, 29. Januar 2023 um 09:45:06 UTC+1:

On Saturday, January 28, 2023 at 11:37:54 PM UTC-8, Marc S wrote:

It reads "Allegro energico, ma non troppo"

"ma non troppo" still qualifies only
"Allegro", regardless of the comma.
You just don't understand Romance
languages.

Certainly I am not going to take your
words for it, you gambled away your
credibility long ago. Believe whatever
your deluded mind wants to believe,

What an idiot asshole you are! I speak
Romanian, Italian, French and Spanish.

Imbecile kraut.

dk

Firstly, it wouldn't matter if you spoke those languages as you don't even understand english.

Secondly, I don't believe that you speak those languages at all.

Good morning, my chaver

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On Sunday, January 29, 2023 at 10:09:33 PM UTC-8, Marc S wrote:

Firstly, it wouldn't matter if you spoke those
languages as you don't even understand english.
Secondly, I don't believe that you speak those
languages at all.

Brainfucked imbcile Nazi, I WAS BORN IN
ROMANIA! You dare tell me I don't speak
Romanian?!? Furthermore, Romanian is
so close to Italian and Spanish that most
native Romanian speakers can pick up
Italian and Spanish in a few weeks,
which I did.

You are really a rotten SS EXCREMENT!

dk

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Guess what this topic is about.
Yet again the mouth-foaming racist and his ego self-aggrandizement.

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dan....@gmail.com schrieb am Montag, 30. Januar 2023 um 07:44:17 UTC+1:

On Sunday, January 29, 2023 at 10:09:33 PM UTC-8, Marc S wrote:

Firstly, it wouldn't matter if you spoke those
languages as you don't even understand english.
Secondly, I don't believe that you speak those
languages at all.

Brainfucked imbcile Nazi, I WAS BORN IN
ROMANIA! You dare tell me I don't speak
Romanian?!? Furthermore, Romanian is
so close to Italian and Spanish that most
native Romanian speakers can pick up
Italian and Spanish in a few weeks,
which I did.

You are really a rotten SS EXCREMENT!

dk

You don't only speak no Romanian; you don't understand English, you know nothing about Israel and you haven't learned shit from the past, calling everyone and their mother a Nazi. You are completely irreverent.

Your pettiness reminds me very much of the idiot Ben-Gurion (who I acknowledge achieved some things, but in general he was an idiot).

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On Sunday, January 29, 2023 at 11:22:28 PM UTC-8, Herman wrote:

Guess what this topic is about.
Yet again the mouth-foaming
racist and his ego self-aggrandizement.

You must be referring to Marc S.
while looking in the mirror.

dk

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On Sunday, January 29, 2023 at 11:57:51 PM UTC-8, Marc S wrote:

Your pettiness reminds me very much of the idiot Ben-Gurion

This shows exactly how much you know about Israel.
Ben-Gurion an idiot and Netanyahu a genius savior?

You are bigotted retarded brainfucked imbecile kraut!

dk

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On Monday, January 30, 2023 at 8:45:38 AM UTC+1, dan....@gmail.com wrote:

On Sunday, January 29, 2023 at 11:22:28 PM UTC-8, Herman wrote:

Guess what this topic is about.
Yet again the mouth-foaming
racist and his ego self-aggrandizement.

You must be referring to Marc S.

you two mirror each other perfectly.

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Herman schrieb am Montag, 30. Januar 2023 um 09:03:25 UTC+1:

On Monday, January 30, 2023 at 8:45:38 AM UTC+1, dan....@gmail.com wrote:

On Sunday, January 29, 2023 at 11:22:28 PM UTC-8, Herman wrote:

Guess what this topic is about.
Yet again the mouth-foaming
racist and his ego self-aggrandizement.

You must be referring to Marc S.

you two mirror each other perfectly.

Believe whatever you want to believe in your deluded mind.

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dan....@gmail.com schrieb am Montag, 30. Januar 2023 um 09:01:27 UTC+1:

On Sunday, January 29, 2023 at 11:57:51 PM UTC-8, Marc S wrote:

Your pettiness reminds me very much of the idiot Ben-Gurion

This shows exactly how much you know about Israel.
Ben-Gurion an idiot and Netanyahu a genius savior?

Actually this shows exactly how much you know about Israel: nada.

Netanyahu came way after Ben-Gurion, Ben-Gurion's rivals were Jabotinsky and Begin.

- Ben-Gurion, the guy who instructed the Israeli Air Force to sink "Altalena"; one of the pilots who refused to follow the idiot's orders said the following to the idiot: "You can kiss my foot. I did not lose four friends and fly 10,000 miles in order to
bomb Jews."

- Ben-Gurion who called Menachem Begin "Vladimir Hitler"

- Ben-Gurion who obstructed the reburial of Jabotinsky from NY to Jerusalem. Levi Eshkol (a very underrated israeli politician) revised Ben-Gurion's mistake.

- Ben-Gurion who did countless other stupid things; while Jabotinsky and Menachem Begin were always or 99% of the times right when they had any disagreements (with Gurion) over matters.

Begin to Ben-Gurion:

"I rejected few of your viewpoints, and I opposed things you did or ordered to do before and after the establishment of Israel. And when I look back at those days, I'm convinced that my opinion about those things was correct and justified."

And I'm with Begin here.

You are bigotted retarded brainfucked imbecile kraut!

dk

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Marc S schrieb am Montag, 30. Januar 2023 um 09:31:11 UTC+1:

dan....@gmail.com schrieb am Montag, 30. Januar 2023 um 09:01:27 UTC+1:

On Sunday, January 29, 2023 at 11:57:51 PM UTC-8, Marc S wrote:

Your pettiness reminds me very much of the idiot Ben-Gurion

This shows exactly how much you know about Israel.
Ben-Gurion an idiot and Netanyahu a genius savior?

Actually this shows exactly how much you know about Israel: nada.

Netanyahu came way after Ben-Gurion, Ben-Gurion's rivals were Jabotinsky and Begin.

- Ben-Gurion, the guy who instructed the Israeli Air Force to sink "Altalena"; one of the pilots who refused to follow the idiot's orders said the following to the idiot: "You can kiss my foot. I did not lose four friends and fly 10,000 miles in order

to bomb Jews."

*Forgot to add that Ben-Gurion in the end ordered the shelling of Altalena.

- Ben-Gurion who called Menachem Begin "Vladimir Hitler"

*I meant to say Jabotinsky instead of Begin; Ben-Gurion called Jabotinsky "Vladimir Hitler" (and I think, if I remember correctly, he also compared Begin to Hitler).

As is the case with idiots (such as with Dan and Ben-Gurion), when they don't have arguments, they accuse others of being Nazis or even Hitler.

- Ben-Gurion who obstructed the reburial of Jabotinsky from NY to Jerusalem. Levi Eshkol (a very underrated israeli politician) revised Ben-Gurion's mistake.

- Ben-Gurion who did countless other stupid things; while Jabotinsky and Menachem Begin were always or 99% of the times right when they had any disagreements (with Gurion) over matters.

Begin to Ben-Gurion:

"I rejected few of your viewpoints, and I opposed things you did or ordered to do before and after the establishment of Israel. And when I look back at those days, I'm convinced that my opinion about those things was correct and justified."

And I'm with Begin here.

You are bigotted retarded brainfucked imbecile kraut!

dk

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