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  • Re: What Makes Debussy Sound French?

    From gggg gggg@21:1/5 to dan....@gmail.com on Tue Nov 8 16:36:58 2022
    On Sunday, September 4, 2022 at 5:11:17 PM UTC-7, dan....@gmail.com wrote:
    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5yZ4vtpxQXw

    (2022 Y. upload):

    "Characteristics of Claude Debussy Music (An Introduction)"

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  • From Herman@21:1/5 to All on Tue Nov 8 17:50:48 2022
    you have posted this link at least twice before.

    it seems to be aimed at Americans or people who have otherwise part of their brain removed.

    this narrator seems to think Bizet is the first French composer in history. Makes you wonder what those Homages a Rameau or Couperin are about.

    It's just the wrong question. Debussy was a revolutionary composer in French music history, too. The question is what makes Debussy sound like Debussy.

    Same as with Stravinsky. In other words, it's about high modernism.

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  • From gggg gggg@21:1/5 to Herman on Tue Nov 8 18:43:40 2022
    On Tuesday, November 8, 2022 at 5:50:51 PM UTC-8, Herman wrote:
    you have posted this link at least twice before.

    it seems to be aimed at Americans or people who have otherwise part of their brain removed.

    this narrator seems to think Bizet is the first French composer in history. Makes you wonder what those Homages a Rameau or Couperin are about.

    It's just the wrong question. Debussy was a revolutionary composer in French music history, too. The question is what makes Debussy sound like Debussy.

    Same as with Stravinsky. In other words, it's about high modernism.

    I couldn't have posted this before because it was uploaded only 3 days ago.

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  • From Dan Koren@21:1/5 to Herman on Tue Nov 8 18:50:35 2022
    On Tuesday, November 8, 2022 at 5:50:51 PM UTC-8, Herman wrote:

    you have posted this link
    at least twice before.

    Nope. I posted the link, and I
    only posted it once. You no
    longer can tell the difference
    between G8 and Dan Koren?

    dk

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  • From Herman@21:1/5 to dan....@gmail.com on Tue Nov 8 23:41:34 2022
    On Wednesday, November 9, 2022 at 3:50:38 AM UTC+1, dan....@gmail.com wrote:
    You no
    longer can tell the difference
    between G8 and Dan Koren?

    dk

    gggg is the one who occasionaly makes sense.
    Other than that, no difference.

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  • From Dan Koren@21:1/5 to Herman on Wed Nov 9 12:49:03 2022
    On Tuesday, November 8, 2022 at 11:41:36 PM UTC-8, Herman wrote:
    On Wednesday, November 9, 2022 at 3:50:38 AM UTC+1, dan....@gmail.com wrote:
    You no
    longer can tell the difference
    between G8 and Dan Koren?

    gggg is the one who occasionaly makes
    sense. Other than that, no difference.

    Unlike G8, I don't quote other people.
    Yet more evidence of your complete
    inability to read and connect the dots.

    dk

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  • From gggg gggg@21:1/5 to gggg gggg on Thu Nov 10 22:49:00 2022
    On Tuesday, November 8, 2022 at 4:37:01 PM UTC-8, gggg gggg wrote:
    On Sunday, September 4, 2022 at 5:11:17 PM UTC-7, dan....@gmail.com wrote:
    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5yZ4vtpxQXw

    (2022 Y. upload):

    "Characteristics of Claude Debussy Music (An Introduction)"

    Isn't part of the French aesthetic that no single element is allowed to dominate?

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  • From gggg gggg@21:1/5 to gggg gggg on Thu Nov 10 23:28:22 2022
    On Thursday, November 10, 2022 at 10:49:02 PM UTC-8, gggg gggg wrote:
    On Tuesday, November 8, 2022 at 4:37:01 PM UTC-8, gggg gggg wrote:
    On Sunday, September 4, 2022 at 5:11:17 PM UTC-7, dan....@gmail.com wrote:
    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5yZ4vtpxQXw

    (2022 Y. upload):

    "Characteristics of Claude Debussy Music (An Introduction)"
    Isn't part of the French aesthetic that no single element is allowed to dominate?

    According to this:

    - ...[Debussy's] Piano Préludes exemplify the French Aesthetics values.

    https://www.academia.edu/15873359/Claude_Debussy_un_musicien_fran%C3%A7ais

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  • From gggg gggg@21:1/5 to gggg gggg on Thu Nov 10 23:27:08 2022
    On Thursday, November 10, 2022 at 10:49:02 PM UTC-8, gggg gggg wrote:
    On Tuesday, November 8, 2022 at 4:37:01 PM UTC-8, gggg gggg wrote:
    On Sunday, September 4, 2022 at 5:11:17 PM UTC-7, dan....@gmail.com wrote:
    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5yZ4vtpxQXw

    (2022 Y. upload):

    "Characteristics of Claude Debussy Music (An Introduction)"
    Isn't part of the French aesthetic that no single element is allowed to dominate?

    According to this:

    - ...[Debussy's] his Piano Préludes exemplify the French Aesthetics values.

    https://www.academia.edu/15873359/Claude_Debussy_un_musicien_fran%C3%A7ais

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  • From gggg gggg@21:1/5 to gggg gggg on Fri Nov 11 09:03:52 2022
    On Thursday, November 10, 2022 at 11:28:25 PM UTC-8, gggg gggg wrote:
    On Thursday, November 10, 2022 at 10:49:02 PM UTC-8, gggg gggg wrote:
    On Tuesday, November 8, 2022 at 4:37:01 PM UTC-8, gggg gggg wrote:
    On Sunday, September 4, 2022 at 5:11:17 PM UTC-7, dan....@gmail.com wrote:
    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5yZ4vtpxQXw

    (2022 Y. upload):

    "Characteristics of Claude Debussy Music (An Introduction)"
    Isn't part of the French aesthetic that no single element is allowed to dominate?
    According to this:

    - ...[Debussy's] Piano Préludes exemplify the French Aesthetics values.

    https://www.academia.edu/15873359/Claude_Debussy_un_musicien_fran%C3%A7ais

    https://groups.google.com/u/1/g/rec.music.classical.recordings/c/1ZT14VO00aA/m/1EfYgO0aAAAJ

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  • From Andrew Clarke@21:1/5 to dan....@gmail.com on Tue Nov 15 15:15:38 2022
    On Monday, September 5, 2022 at 10:11:17 AM UTC+10, dan....@gmail.com wrote:
    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5yZ4vtpxQXw

    Debussy sounds French because if he is performed in a particular fashion he reminds people of Verlaine (but not Baudelaire), Renoir (but not Cezanne) or the dreamier bits of Proust (made even dreamier in Scott Moncrieff's translation).

    Then along came M. Boulez ...

    Andrew Clarke
    Canberra

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  • From raymond.hallbear1@gmail.com@21:1/5 to andrewc...gmail.com on Tue Nov 15 17:36:10 2022
    On Wednesday, 16 November 2022 at 10:15:41 UTC+11, andrewc...gmail.com wrote:
    On Monday, September 5, 2022 at 10:11:17 AM UTC+10, dan....gmail.com wrote:
    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5yZ4vtpxQXw

    Debussy sounds French because if he is performed in a particular fashion he reminds people of Verlaine (but not Baudelaire), Renoir (but not Cezanne) or the dreamier bits of Proust (made even dreamier in Scott Moncrieff's translation).

    Then along came M. Boulez ...

    Andrew Clarke
    Canberra

    Debussy doesn't reek of French-ness, but is obviously not Russain or German. What I find with this composer is his way of carrying (sustaining) notes across bar lines, and for me as a listener it is often difficult to detect bar lines.

    Poulenc for me is the archetypal French composer, light, witty and pungent.

    Ray Hall, Taree

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  • From Manypeopletrytosee99@21:1/5 to raymond....@gmail.com on Thu Nov 17 04:51:15 2022
    On Wednesday, November 16, 2022 at 12:06:12 PM UTC+10:30, raymond....@gmail.com wrote:
    On Wednesday, 16 November 2022 at 10:15:41 UTC+11, andrewc...gmail.com wrote:
    On Monday, September 5, 2022 at 10:11:17 AM UTC+10, dan....gmail.com wrote:
    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5yZ4vtpxQXw

    Debussy sounds French because if he is performed in a particular fashion he reminds people of Verlaine (but not Baudelaire), Renoir (but not Cezanne) or the dreamier bits of Proust (made even dreamier in Scott Moncrieff's translation).

    Then along came M. Boulez ...

    Andrew Clarke
    Canberra
    Debussy doesn't reek of French-ness, but is obviously not Russain or German. What I find with this composer is his way of carrying (sustaining) notes across bar lines, and for me as a listener it is often difficult to detect bar lines.

    Poulenc for me is the archetypal French composer, light, witty and pungent.

    Ray Hall, Taree

    I would say the answer is rather obvious. Debussy is the musical equivalent of impressionistic painting.
    Both musical and painted impressionism originated in France from French people.
    Much Debussy music is perfect as background in movies for this reason. Emotional, yet not overstated. Not attention seeking, yet still there. Slow transitions and tempo plus many sustained notes.

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  • From Dan Koren@21:1/5 to raymond....@gmail.com on Fri Nov 18 00:44:21 2022
    On Tuesday, November 15, 2022 at 5:36:12 PM UTC-8, raymond....@gmail.com wrote:
    On Wednesday, 16 November 2022 at 10:15:41 UTC+11, andrewc...gmail.com wrote:
    On Monday, September 5, 2022 at 10:11:17 AM UTC+10, dan....gmail.com wrote:
    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5yZ4vtpxQXw

    Debussy sounds French because if he is performed in a particular fashion he reminds people of Verlaine (but not Baudelaire), Renoir (but not Cezanne) or
    the dreamier bits of Proust (made even dreamier in Scott Moncrieff's translation).

    Then along came M. Boulez ...

    Debussy doesn't reek of French-ness, but is obviously not Russain or German.

    What does "reek" mean in this context? Seriously.
    No use of deodorant for weeks?

    What I find with this composer is his way of carrying
    (sustaining) notes across bar lines, and for me as a
    listener it is often difficult to detect bar lines.

    Why would one want to "detect" bar lines? Seriously.
    Bar lines are very clear to see from prison cells.

    Poulenc for me is the archetypal French composer,
    light, witty and pungent.

    While I like and enjoy Poulenc's music at least as
    much as anyone else in this ng, may I respectfully
    point to a long line of "archetypal French composers"
    that hopefully extends to infinity: Machaut, Marais,
    Lully, Couperin, Rameau, Berlioz, Franck,Gounod,
    Saint-Saens, d'Indy, Satie, Debussy, Ravel, Poulenc,
    and so on.

    Each and every one archetypal during their times.

    dk

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  • From Dan Koren@21:1/5 to andrewc...@gmail.com on Fri Nov 18 00:45:33 2022
    On Tuesday, November 15, 2022 at 3:15:41 PM UTC-8, andrewc...@gmail.com wrote:
    On Monday, September 5, 2022 at 10:11:17 AM UTC+10, dan....@gmail.com wrote:
    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5yZ4vtpxQXw

    Debussy sounds French because if he is performed in a
    particular fashion he reminds people of Verlaine (but not
    Baudelaire), Renoir (but not Cezanne) or the dreamier bits
    of Proust (made even dreamier in Scott Moncrieff's translation).

    Duh! Debussy sounds French because he practically
    defined French music.

    dk

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  • From raymond.hallbear1@gmail.com@21:1/5 to dan....gmail.com on Fri Nov 18 02:27:18 2022
    On Friday, 18 November 2022 at 19:44:24 UTC+11, dan....gmail.com wrote:
    On Tuesday, November 15, 2022 at 5:36:12 PM UTC-8, raymond....gmail.com wrote:
    On Wednesday, 16 November 2022 at 10:15:41 UTC+11, andrewc...gmail.com wrote:
    On Monday, September 5, 2022 at 10:11:17 AM UTC+10, dan....gmail.com wrote:
    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5yZ4vtpxQXw

    Debussy sounds French because if he is performed in a particular fashion he
    reminds people of Verlaine (but not Baudelaire), Renoir (but not Cezanne) or
    the dreamier bits of Proust (made even dreamier in Scott Moncrieff's translation).

    Then along came M. Boulez ...

    Debussy doesn't reek of French-ness, but is obviously not Russain or German.
    What does "reek" mean in this context? Seriously.

    Well, for one thing, I don't see how one would necessarily automatically define Debussy as French, except by obvious association. With Poulenc it becomes much more obvious, because he has more in common with other composers. Debussy was very influential,
    but not as typical. I tend to agree with the poster who said that impressionism had some effect on Debussy. He was right imho.

    No use of deodorant for weeks?
    What I find with this composer is his way of carrying
    (sustaining) notes across bar lines, and for me as a
    listener it is often difficult to detect bar lines.
    Why would one want to "detect" bar lines? Seriously.

    Trying to imagine conducting La Mer. Much more difficult where bar lines are not as easily apparent. Jeux is another example, and a better one.

    Bar lines are very clear to see from prison cells.
    Poulenc for me is the archetypal French composer,
    light, witty and pungent.

    While I like and enjoy Poulenc's music at least as
    much as anyone else in this ng, may I respectfully
    point to a long line of "archetypal French composers"
    that hopefully extends to infinity: Machaut, Marais,
    Lully, Couperin, Rameau, Berlioz, Franck,Gounod,
    Saint-Saens, d'Indy, Satie, Debussy, Ravel, Poulenc,
    and so on.

    The use of "archetypal" does not extend to many of the composers listed above. How does Machaut relate to Ravel, given a separation in time of about 650-700 years? I simply don't see a musical connection that relates to a country that has undergone many
    changes (as have others also).

    Each and every one archetypal during their times.

    ??????? To be typical there has to be periods of stability, along with a commonality, else the word becomes meaningless.

    Ray Hall, Taree

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  • From JohnGavin@21:1/5 to All on Fri Nov 18 03:21:59 2022
    Play a whole tone scale on the piano softly with the sustain pedal slightly depressed.
    Who will it remind you of?

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  • From JohnGavin@21:1/5 to JohnGavin on Fri Nov 18 03:47:07 2022
    On Friday, November 18, 2022 at 6:22:02 AM UTC-5, JohnGavin wrote:
    Play a whole tone scale on the piano softly with the sustain pedal slightly depressed.
    Who will it remind you of?


    A great deal of French music avoids any hint of excess emotionalism and sentimentality. This goes back to the baroque era and before. One of the reasons why French composers populate my list of favorites.

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  • From Herman@21:1/5 to All on Fri Nov 18 04:24:42 2022
    Just a little fun quote (from Jane Fulcher's 2001 book) for people who keep reiterating that tired old "impressionism" label:
    "Debussy said that anyone using the term (whether about painting or music) was an imbecile".

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  • From Owen Hartnett@21:1/5 to Dan Koren on Fri Nov 18 10:57:17 2022
    On 2022-11-18 08:44:21 +0000, Dan Koren said:

    On Tuesday, November 15, 2022 at 5:36:12 PM UTC-8, raymond....@gmail.com wrote:
    On Wednesday, 16 November 2022 at 10:15:41 UTC+11, andrewc...gmail.com wrote:
    On Monday, September 5, 2022 at 10:11:17 AM UTC+10, dan....gmail.com wrote: >>>> https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5yZ4vtpxQXw

    Debussy sounds French because if he is performed in a particular fashion he >>> reminds people of Verlaine (but not Baudelaire), Renoir (but not Cezanne) or
    the dreamier bits of Proust (made even dreamier in Scott Moncrieff's
    translation).

    Then along came M. Boulez ...

    Debussy doesn't reek of French-ness, but is obviously not Russain or German.

    What does "reek" mean in this context? Seriously.
    No use of deodorant for weeks?


    As in the W.C. Fields quote:

    "You kids coming in here every day, reeking of lollipops and bubble gum."

    -Owen

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  • From Manypeopletrytosee99@21:1/5 to Herman on Thu Nov 24 18:38:39 2022
    On Friday, November 18, 2022 at 10:54:44 PM UTC+10:30, Herman wrote:
    Just a little fun quote (from Jane Fulcher's 2001 book) for people who keep reiterating that tired old "impressionism" label:
    "Debussy said that anyone using the term (whether about painting or music) was an imbecile".

    Debussy didn't want to be called out as the trendy follower of an art movement that he made a conscious decision to adhere to in his compositions.
    Pretty silly, because It's great music regardless.

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  • From Andy Evans@21:1/5 to All on Fri Nov 25 09:39:00 2022
    It's a big mistake to see Debussy as "dreamy" music apart from one or two piano pieces. On the contrary it's quite spiky. It's intense music quite densely packed with ideas - not empty at all.

    I had this shown to me most clearly when I had a heart procedure and the surgeon (who was also a violinist) asked if I would like any music to relax me. I said "OK - put some Debussy on". So he played La Mer on some device in the theatre. I was very
    surprised to find the music wasn't relaxing in the slightest - it just made me stressed and I asked him to turn it off!

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  • From Herman@21:1/5 to All on Fri Nov 25 10:14:06 2022
    In those circumstances NO music is best.

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  • From number_six@21:1/5 to Herman on Fri Nov 25 14:03:33 2022
    On Friday, November 25, 2022 at 10:14:09 AM UTC-8, Herman wrote:
    In those circumstances NO music is best.
    If the music loses its pulse, one hopes the patient doesn't follow suit...

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  • From gggg gggg@21:1/5 to Dan Koren on Thu Mar 9 16:02:33 2023
    On Sunday, September 4, 2022 at 5:11:17 PM UTC-7, Dan Koren wrote:
    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5yZ4vtpxQXw

    (Y. upload):

    "How to Sound Like Debussy"

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  • From Dan Koren@21:1/5 to Andy Evans on Fri Mar 10 20:50:53 2023
    On Friday, November 25, 2022 at 9:39:02 AM UTC-8, Andy Evans wrote:

    It's a big mistake to see Debussy as "dreamy" music
    apart from one or two piano pieces. On the contrary
    it's quite spiky. It's intense music quite densely
    packed with ideas - not empty at all.

    I had this shown to me most clearly when I had a heart
    procedure and the surgeon (who was also a violinist)
    asked if I would like any music to relax me. I said "OK -
    put some Debussy on". So he played La Mer on some
    device in the theatre. I was very surprised to find the
    music wasn't relaxing in the slightest - it just made
    me stressed and I asked him to turn it off!

    Sorry to hear.

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  • From gggg gggg@21:1/5 to Dan Koren on Sun Apr 23 18:29:23 2023
    On Sunday, September 4, 2022 at 5:11:17 PM UTC-7, Dan Koren wrote:
    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5yZ4vtpxQXw

    (2023 Y. upload):

    "What Makes Debussy's Clair de Lune SO GENIUS?"

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