I'm thinking of carrying four wakizashi (short swords) to throw.
Daggers only go to basic.
On 21.07.2022 23:33, Yosemite Sam wrote:
I'm thinking of carrying four wakizashi (short swords) to throw.
Daggers only go to basic.
Wakizashis are heavier and have no to-hit bonus; in practice I
miss a lot and thus get bored using them in the first place.
I'd prefer carrying a few daggers that stack and I can enchant.
But Samurai are anyway melee fighters;
getting Snickersnee or Excalibur and two-weaponing any of those with
another longsword or sabre is very effective.
I would spend my skill slots for longsword, two-weaponing, and sabres,
and possibly bow and/or basic daggers.
In reply to your subject: Samurai running out of ya (arrows)...
There's so many arrow traps (visit the mines) and also creatures
with bows that you should be able to easily replenish your quiver.
On Fri, 22 Jul 2022 01:49:10 +0200, Janis Papanagnou wrote:[...]
About the only thing I use the starting wakizashi of Samurai for, is
fighting corroding monsters before encountering corrosion resistant
weapons like elven daggers.
[...] Instead of saber, advancing shuriken is worth considering
later in the game. (Especially after the quest.)
In reply to your subject: Samurai running out of ya (arrows)...
There's so many arrow traps (visit the mines) and also creatures
with bows that you should be able to easily replenish your quiver.
With two-weaponing, switching to bow becomes a nuisance. Therefore, I
seldom advance bow with samurai and switch to daggers as soon as possible. (Although expert bow can be /really/ awesome.) Normal arrows being less effective than ya, I seldom bother with them. There's also the risk of multishot hitting peaceful monsters. Samurai with basic dagger don't have this (dis)advantage... ;-)
[...] Instead of saber, advancing shuriken is worth considering
later in the game. (Especially after the quest.)
That was never a factor in my [Samurai] games; they are far too
rarely appearing to consider training them or spending skill slots.
Misguided missile weapons is rarely an issue for me if I avoid shooting
them in the dark.
I never got used to "throw[number]". It didn't work as expected when I "trained" my muscle memory for the current shortcut layout of Nethack. Accidentally killed minetown guards from attempts on this shortcut are legend... ;-) And I don't really know, if it works now, reliably.
Must be years, since I last tried.
On Fri, 22 Jul 2022 09:47:22 +0200, Janis Papanagnou wrote:
[...] Instead of saber, advancing shuriken is worth considering
later in the game. (Especially after the quest.)
That was never a factor in my [Samurai] games; they are far too
rarely appearing to consider training them or spending skill slots.
The only considerable source is the Quest. But it tends to provide
more than enough. /If/ I train them, then to Expert. And I get a
stack of several dozen shuriken to blessed erodeproof +7, which makes
a fierce impact even in the later game. With enough luck and blessing, breaking them is not a real issue.
The difference between our preferences is (obviously) linked to our
playing style: I prefer ranged attacks, while you tend to do more hand-to-hand combat.
On Friday, July 22, 2022 at 10:08:50 AM UTC-7, B. R. 'BeAr' Ederson wrote: [...]
I never got used to "throw[number]". It didn't work as expected when I
"trained" my muscle memory for the current shortcut layout of Nethack.
Accidentally killed minetown guards from attempts on this shortcut are
legend... ;-) And I don't really know, if it works now, reliably.
Must be years, since I last tried.
Throwing a specific number only works for gold, everything
else always throws 1. You're confusing that with <count> t (or
<count> f; for number_pad, n <count> t or n <count> f).
Throwing/shooting doesn't allow a repeat count but specifying
a number in the command repeat count position can be used to
impose a maximum number of missiles for multi-shot. That is
mainly useful if you might kill your target in mid-volley and want
to avoid hitting other monsters behind it with the remainder of
the volley.
t2x throws 2 if x is '$', otherwise object selection tells you that
the 2 is being ignored when you specify x and you'll throw 1;
2tx throws at most 2 x even if skill+role+race would allow more;
it will throw less (1 in this instance) if your stack size is less
or the random multi-shot amount picks less [put another way,
you can't use that to force 2 missiles unless you would have
thrown/shot at least 2 anyway].
On 22.07.2022 19:08, B. R. 'BeAr' Ederson wrote:
On Fri, 22 Jul 2022 09:47:22 +0200, Janis Papanagnou wrote:
That was never a factor in my [Samurai] games; they are far too
rarely appearing to consider training them or spending skill slots.
The only considerable source is the Quest. But it tends to provide
more than enough. /If/ I train them, then to Expert. And I get a
stack of several dozen shuriken to blessed erodeproof +7, which makes
a fierce impact even in the later game. With enough luck and blessing,
breaking them is not a real issue.
The difference between our preferences is (obviously) linked to our
playing style: I prefer ranged attacks, while you tend to do more
hand-to-hand combat.
This is not true and I cannot see where you derive that from.
Usually it depends on the class played
With extremely proficient two-weapon melee fighters like Samurai the
melee capabilities are outstanding.
My shuriken deprecation is primarily because I rarely get enough of those[...]
at stages of the game where they are most useful.
if you can kill [in Nethack] every monster in one turn, tough monsters in
two turns, ranged attacks are not important any more.
Just tried (with the force_invmenu set and number_pad:2, as always):
On Friday, July 22, 2022 at 11:09:57 PM UTC-7, B. R. 'BeAr' Ederson wrote:
Just tried (with the force_invmenu set and number_pad:2, as always):
Menu selection counts are broken in Windows GUI interface.
If you're using that then you should have said so.
Both 't' and 'f' allow using the command repeat count as a way
to limit the multi-shot amount, even with Windows GUI. Anyone
who uses number_pad has to be aware that the first digit of a
repeat count must be preceded by the 'n' prefix. Do you perform
multi-turn searches by holding down the 's' key instead of using
something like n9s? n2tx is comparable.
The difference between our preferences is (obviously) linked to our
playing style: I prefer ranged attacks, while you tend to do more
hand-to-hand combat.
This is not true and I cannot see where you derive that from.
Let's see. ;-)
Usually it depends on the class played
[...]
My shuriken deprecation is primarily because I rarely get enough of those[...]
at stages of the game where they are most useful.
if you can kill [in Nethack] every monster in one turn, tough monsters in
two turns, ranged attacks are not important any more.
And that's, where we differ (as I wrote). You turn mostly to melee when
your character is proficient enough.
I don't. Therefore, you do not regard
enhancing Shuriken worth enhancing late in the game, while I do.
Please note: I don't think one approach to be better than the other! They
are just different, to a degree.
And that's, where we differ (as I wrote). You turn mostly to melee when
your character is proficient enough.
(I was speaking of Samurai in this context. And it's still not true generally; see below: Rogues.)
I don't. Therefore, you do not regard
enhancing Shuriken worth enhancing late in the game, while I do.
This is true. (I elaborated on the Why and When I do This or That.)
If there's not enough objects of that type, skill slots are wasted.
I wonder that you seem to have a different experience here; are you
really finding so many shurikens in your games? (I certainly don't.)
Please note: I don't think one approach to be better than the other! They
are just different, to a degree.
Oh, I wasn't implying any valuation.
I give you an example; with Rogues I generally start to throw daggers immediately. Why? Because I can find abundances of daggers, missiles
that don't go out of supply, skills (skill-slots) that are not wasted.
Later when I get a decent melee artifact weapon the daggers are still
in my quiver, and they get used before creatures get adjacent. The
first weapon type that gets #enhanced (until Expert) is the daggers.
Rogue with multi-shot enchanted daggers is an awesome killer-machine.
On Sat, 23 Jul 2022 18:08:59 +0200, Janis Papanagnou wrote:
I give you an example; with Rogues I generally start to throw daggers
immediately. Why? Because I can find abundances of daggers, missiles
that don't go out of supply, skills (skill-slots) that are not wasted.
Later when I get a decent melee artifact weapon the daggers are still
in my quiver, and they get used before creatures get adjacent. The
first weapon type that gets #enhanced (until Expert) is the daggers.
Rogue with multi-shot enchanted daggers is an awesome killer-machine.
As I wrote:
| You turn mostly to melee when your character is proficient enough.
Ranger (especially in the beginning) is /no/ proficient melee fighter. Therefore, your decision to lean more to ranged weapons with this role.
This matches what I think to have been deduced from your game reports
about differences between your playing styles and mine.
One of my favorite roles is one that's the least favorite of many others: Archeologist.
- Probably, because I'm used to being (over-)protective to
my player characters. You, OTOH, seem to be a lot more pragmatic. ;-)
I think you misread or misinterpreted. Is there any reason you don't
wield a melee weapon if you're doing ranged fighting daggers? Do you
consider it melee at the moment you wield a melee weapon, even if you
throw daggers? The point is that at some instant of time your foes are adjacent; because of the weight (and other necessary loot) you cannot
carry too many daggers, and with multi-shot they are gone at some point.
The funny thing in Nethack is that even an adjacent foe can be fought
with a thrown ranged weapon - IMO that should be made impossible, if
only for balance reasons -, so with a supply of daggers large enough
you can continue that way. But what if you are running out of daggers?
With other missile weapons (with those that break) the situation can
be even more challenging since your supply gets reduced. Nonetheless
I also use darts, for example. In any way, these factors are to be considered. There are of course more considerations with melee; may
these missiles rust/corrode (and unstack), may [highly enchanted]
missiles be picked up and used by [intelligent] opponents against
you? And hordes and specifically hordes of mixed species may impose
more decisions to make beyond a plain "sword or missile" philosophy.
What I certainly do is to switch to melee when there's no advantage
(damage wise) any more, so that I can spare me the turns to collect
my missiles - while even then still using missiles when appropriate.
I forgot one aspect; I spoke of daggers and darts because they can be
thrown without further action or turn. While I also use crossbows and
bows in principle (as written) I do that not that often. Even less so
in Slashem where there's additional risks associated with two-handed missile-launchers (that bows and weapons are in that variant). Often
I prefer even Basic daggers to Skilled bow/arrows because of that.
For specific stages in the game I also want missiles (Medusa's eels),
or fighting a tough quest nemesis from a boulder fort, so I carry them
with me even when I play a melee fighter role.
As I wrote:
| You turn mostly to melee when your character is proficient enough.
I think you misread or misinterpreted.
Is there any reason you don't wield a melee weapon if you're doing ranged fighting daggers?
because of the weight (and other necessary loot) you cannot carry too many daggers, and with multi-shot they are gone at some point.
The funny thing in Nethack is that even an adjacent foe can be fought
with a thrown ranged weapon - IMO that should be made impossible, if
only for balance reasons
But what if you are running out of daggers?
One of my favorite roles is one that's the least favorite of many others:
Archeologist.
I consider Archeologist to be a very difficult class, and statistics
seem to support that. I very much like that role, though. Especially
if I can reach the quest with a lot loot and a guaranteed co-aligned
altar. Incidentally that crazy game full of artifacts I posted about
was an Archeologist (Arc Hum Mal Law), my fifth Slashem Arc ascended.
- Probably, because I'm used to being (over-)protective to
my player characters. You, OTOH, seem to be a lot more pragmatic. ;-)
I don't understand what exactly you mean here by "(over-)protective".
And I also don't understand what you mean here by "more pragmatic", specifically as a supposed difference to the "protective" thing.
For me those two characteristics are not mutually exclusive. Mind
to explain?
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