• Destructive Lock Nuts Suck

    From Bob La Londe@21:1/5 to All on Fri Apr 12 13:14:58 2024
    I recently had to install new axles on a trailer in order to get working
    brakes on the trailer... Don't lecture me about how you could have done
    this or that and not replaced them. They were oddballs and I wasted a
    couple weeks looking for other solutions.

    The u-bolts that came with the new axles came with the destructive style
    lock nuts. I don't mind to much. I hoped to never have to deal with this
    again on this trailer anyway. On my second run to go pick up a truck and
    haul it halfway across the state over some mountains and some modestly substantial grades and weave through the Salt River Canyon two nuts came
    off.

    When the nuts came off I don't know, but when I went over a bump the
    axle popped off the springs and the tire slammed into the tire behind. I
    had just hit 65 mph and it suddenly felt wrong. I was running empty and
    all of a sudden it felt like I was running with a load. I glanced at the
    mirror and smoke was pouring off those tires so bad I thought a hub was
    on fire. Fortunately, there was on old stock yard just ahead with a lot
    of flat ground out front where I was able to safely pull out somewhere
    west of Coolidge. The axle coming loose turned out to be an easy fix.
    Since I was still running empty I just jacked the side of the trailer
    up, rolled the axle back in place, and ratchet strapped it tight. Then I whipped out my cell phone and entered NEAREST HARDWARE STORE into the
    search window.

    The U-bolt that had fallen off was just barely hanging onto the axle
    still by the extra friction of the threads. The other U-bolt was still
    attached to the cross plate by the nuts. At least I wasn't wondering
    where in small town Arizona I was going to find U-bolts.

    There was a Tractor Supply store in Coolidge that had TWO (2) (just two)
    9/16 fine nuts. They were in the wrong bin, but I found them. With that,
    a couple fresh lock washers, and copious amounts of red high strength
    Permatex thread locker I crawled under the trailer in the parking lot to
    fix it.

    Coming back I stopped and checked the trailer and my load at every brake
    check lane and pullout. With a 3/4 ton Dodge w/ Cummins on the back I
    made it back through the mountains and across the Salt River Canyon
    almost with out incident. Somewhere on a long flat Southwest of
    Globe/Miami I glanced in the mirror to see one of the hooks for a front
    strap laying on the trailer deck. The strap broke where it went over the frame.  Fortunately I had left the winch cable tight or I might have
    lost the truck.

    I'm too old for this sort of adventure. I prepared for everything I
    could think of. Brought tools, and materials for emergencies, and did everything I could think of to prevent problems before setting out.

    Yes, the nuts were torqued down properly both times. LOL.

    Yeah, I know... there are plenty among you who can tell me everything
    they think I did wrong, but at the end I made it home. Now I have to get
    that truck back off the trailer.

    --
    Bob La Londe
    CNC Molds N Stuff

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  • From David Billington@21:1/5 to Bob La Londe on Fri Apr 12 21:26:50 2024
    On 12/04/2024 21:14, Bob La Londe wrote:
    I recently had to install new axles on a trailer in order to get
    working brakes on the trailer... Don't lecture me about how you could
    have done this or that and not replaced them. They were oddballs and I
    wasted a couple weeks looking for other solutions.

    The u-bolts that came with the new axles came with the destructive
    style lock nuts. I don't mind to much. I hoped to never have to deal
    with this again on this trailer anyway. On my second run to go pick up
    a truck and haul it halfway across the state over some mountains and
    some modestly substantial grades and weave through the Salt River
    Canyon two nuts came off.

    When the nuts came off I don't know, but when I went over a bump the
    axle popped off the springs and the tire slammed into the tire behind.
    I had just hit 65 mph and it suddenly felt wrong. I was running empty
    and all of a sudden it felt like I was running with a load. I glanced
    at the mirror and smoke was pouring off those tires so bad I thought a
    hub was on fire. Fortunately, there was on old stock yard just ahead
    with a lot of flat ground out front where I was able to safely pull
    out somewhere west of Coolidge. The axle coming loose turned out to be
    an easy fix. Since I was still running empty I just jacked the side of
    the trailer up, rolled the axle back in place, and ratchet strapped it
    tight. Then I whipped out my cell phone and entered NEAREST HARDWARE
    STORE into the search window.

    The U-bolt that had fallen off was just barely hanging onto the axle
    still by the extra friction of the threads. The other U-bolt was still attached to the cross plate by the nuts. At least I wasn't wondering
    where in small town Arizona I was going to find U-bolts.

    There was a Tractor Supply store in Coolidge that had TWO (2) (just
    two) 9/16 fine nuts. They were in the wrong bin, but I found them.
    With that, a couple fresh lock washers, and copious amounts of red
    high strength Permatex thread locker I crawled under the trailer in
    the parking lot to fix it.

    Coming back I stopped and checked the trailer and my load at every
    brake check lane and pullout. With a 3/4 ton Dodge w/ Cummins on the
    back I made it back through the mountains and across the Salt River
    Canyon almost with out incident. Somewhere on a long flat Southwest of Globe/Miami I glanced in the mirror to see one of the hooks for a
    front strap laying on the trailer deck. The strap broke where it went
    over the frame.  Fortunately I had left the winch cable tight or I
    might have lost the truck.

    I'm too old for this sort of adventure. I prepared for everything I
    could think of. Brought tools, and materials for emergencies, and did everything I could think of to prevent problems before setting out.

    Yes, the nuts were torqued down properly both times. LOL.

    Yeah, I know... there are plenty among you who can tell me everything
    they think I did wrong, but at the end I made it home. Now I have to
    get that truck back off the trailer.

    Good to hear no serious damage or injury. What do you mean by a
    destructive locknut, It's not something I've heard of before. I wonder
    if it was poor quality hardware. I was reading recently about a guy that
    was rebuilding the diff and final drive in his car and decided to use
    new bolts for the CW fixing but they failed when tightened before he
    reach the correct torque, apparently made in Asia, he re-used the
    original ones in the end and no problems.

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  • From Bob La Londe@21:1/5 to David Billington on Fri Apr 12 13:36:58 2024
    On 4/12/2024 1:26 PM, David Billington wrote:
    On 12/04/2024 21:14, Bob La Londe wrote:
    I recently had to install new axles on a trailer in order to get
    working brakes on the trailer... Don't lecture me about how you could
    have done this or that and not replaced them. They were oddballs and I
    wasted a couple weeks looking for other solutions.

    The u-bolts that came with the new axles came with the destructive
    style lock nuts. I don't mind to much. I hoped to never have to deal
    with this again on this trailer anyway. On my second run to go pick up
    a truck and haul it halfway across the state over some mountains and
    some modestly substantial grades and weave through the Salt River
    Canyon two nuts came off.

    When the nuts came off I don't know, but when I went over a bump the
    axle popped off the springs and the tire slammed into the tire behind.
    I had just hit 65 mph and it suddenly felt wrong. I was running empty
    and all of a sudden it felt like I was running with a load. I glanced
    at the mirror and smoke was pouring off those tires so bad I thought a
    hub was on fire. Fortunately, there was on old stock yard just ahead
    with a lot of flat ground out front where I was able to safely pull
    out somewhere west of Coolidge. The axle coming loose turned out to be
    an easy fix. Since I was still running empty I just jacked the side of
    the trailer up, rolled the axle back in place, and ratchet strapped it
    tight. Then I whipped out my cell phone and entered NEAREST HARDWARE
    STORE into the search window.

    The U-bolt that had fallen off was just barely hanging onto the axle
    still by the extra friction of the threads. The other U-bolt was still
    attached to the cross plate by the nuts. At least I wasn't wondering
    where in small town Arizona I was going to find U-bolts.

    There was a Tractor Supply store in Coolidge that had TWO (2) (just
    two) 9/16 fine nuts. They were in the wrong bin, but I found them.
    With that, a couple fresh lock washers, and copious amounts of red
    high strength Permatex thread locker I crawled under the trailer in
    the parking lot to fix it.

    Coming back I stopped and checked the trailer and my load at every
    brake check lane and pullout. With a 3/4 ton Dodge w/ Cummins on the
    back I made it back through the mountains and across the Salt River
    Canyon almost with out incident. Somewhere on a long flat Southwest of
    Globe/Miami I glanced in the mirror to see one of the hooks for a
    front strap laying on the trailer deck. The strap broke where it went
    over the frame.  Fortunately I had left the winch cable tight or I
    might have lost the truck.

    I'm too old for this sort of adventure. I prepared for everything I
    could think of. Brought tools, and materials for emergencies, and did
    everything I could think of to prevent problems before setting out.

    Yes, the nuts were torqued down properly both times. LOL.

    Yeah, I know... there are plenty among you who can tell me everything
    they think I did wrong, but at the end I made it home. Now I have to
    get that truck back off the trailer.

    Good to hear no serious damage or injury. What do you mean by a
    destructive locknut, It's not something I've heard of before. I wonder
    if it was poor quality hardware. I was reading recently about a guy that
    was rebuilding the diff and final drive in his car and decided to use
    new bolts for the CW fixing but they failed when tightened before he
    reach the correct torque, apparently made in Asia, he re-used the
    original ones in the end and no problems.


    I know you guys have to know what I am talking about. There is a type
    of lock nut that is dimpled or punched that partially mangles the
    threads when installed to lock it in place. These have square punch
    marks on the flat.
    --
    Bob La Londe
    CNC Molds N Stuff


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  • From Bob La Londe@21:1/5 to Jim Wilkins on Fri Apr 12 13:37:06 2024
    On 4/12/2024 1:31 PM, Jim Wilkins wrote:
    "Bob La Londe"  wrote in message news:uvc4o3$2hrcg$1@dont-email.me...
    The u-bolts that came with the new axles came with the destructive style
    lock nuts.
    -------------------------

    Google isn't telling me what a "destructive" lock nut is.

    I know you guys have to know what I am talking about. There is a type
    of lock nut that is dimpled or punched that partially mangles the
    threads when installed to lock it in place. These have square punch
    marks on the flat.
    --
    Bob La Londe
    CNC Molds N Stuff


    --
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  • From David Billington@21:1/5 to Bob La Londe on Fri Apr 12 21:48:12 2024
    On 12/04/2024 21:36, Bob La Londe wrote:
    On 4/12/2024 1:26 PM, David Billington wrote:
    On 12/04/2024 21:14, Bob La Londe wrote:
    I recently had to install new axles on a trailer in order to get
    working brakes on the trailer... Don't lecture me about how you
    could have done this or that and not replaced them. They were
    oddballs and I wasted a couple weeks looking for other solutions.

    The u-bolts that came with the new axles came with the destructive
    style lock nuts. I don't mind to much. I hoped to never have to deal
    with this again on this trailer anyway. On my second run to go pick
    up a truck and haul it halfway across the state over some mountains
    and some modestly substantial grades and weave through the Salt
    River Canyon two nuts came off.

    When the nuts came off I don't know, but when I went over a bump the
    axle popped off the springs and the tire slammed into the tire
    behind. I had just hit 65 mph and it suddenly felt wrong. I was
    running empty and all of a sudden it felt like I was running with a
    load. I glanced at the mirror and smoke was pouring off those tires
    so bad I thought a hub was on fire. Fortunately, there was on old
    stock yard just ahead with a lot of flat ground out front where I
    was able to safely pull out somewhere west of Coolidge. The axle
    coming loose turned out to be an easy fix. Since I was still running
    empty I just jacked the side of the trailer up, rolled the axle back
    in place, and ratchet strapped it tight. Then I whipped out my cell
    phone and entered NEAREST HARDWARE STORE into the search window.

    The U-bolt that had fallen off was just barely hanging onto the axle
    still by the extra friction of the threads. The other U-bolt was
    still attached to the cross plate by the nuts. At least I wasn't
    wondering where in small town Arizona I was going to find U-bolts.

    There was a Tractor Supply store in Coolidge that had TWO (2) (just
    two) 9/16 fine nuts. They were in the wrong bin, but I found them.
    With that, a couple fresh lock washers, and copious amounts of red
    high strength Permatex thread locker I crawled under the trailer in
    the parking lot to fix it.

    Coming back I stopped and checked the trailer and my load at every
    brake check lane and pullout. With a 3/4 ton Dodge w/ Cummins on the
    back I made it back through the mountains and across the Salt River
    Canyon almost with out incident. Somewhere on a long flat Southwest
    of Globe/Miami I glanced in the mirror to see one of the hooks for a
    front strap laying on the trailer deck. The strap broke where it
    went over the frame.  Fortunately I had left the winch cable tight
    or I might have lost the truck.

    I'm too old for this sort of adventure. I prepared for everything I
    could think of. Brought tools, and materials for emergencies, and
    did everything I could think of to prevent problems before setting out.

    Yes, the nuts were torqued down properly both times. LOL.

    Yeah, I know... there are plenty among you who can tell me
    everything they think I did wrong, but at the end I made it home.
    Now I have to get that truck back off the trailer.

    Good to hear no serious damage or injury. What do you mean by a
    destructive locknut, It's not something I've heard of before. I
    wonder if it was poor quality hardware. I was reading recently about
    a guy that was rebuilding the diff and final drive in his car and
    decided to use new bolts for the CW fixing but they failed when
    tightened before he reach the correct torque, apparently made in
    Asia, he re-used the original ones in the end and no problems.


    I know you guys have to know what I am talking about.  There is a type
    of lock nut that is dimpled or punched that partially mangles the
    threads when installed to lock it in place.  These have square punch
    marks on the flat.

    Is this the type of nut https://www.fastenright.com/general-fixings/philidas-mkv-nut/sl14 , one
    of many designs of all metal lock nuts. I actually have quite a few of
    those in M5 and M6 for certain applications.

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  • From Snag@21:1/5 to Bob La Londe on Fri Apr 12 16:43:22 2024
    On 4/12/2024 3:36 PM, Bob La Londe wrote:
    On 4/12/2024 1:26 PM, David Billington wrote:
    On 12/04/2024 21:14, Bob La Londe wrote:
    I recently had to install new axles on a trailer in order to get
    working brakes on the trailer... Don't lecture me about how you could
    have done this or that and not replaced them. They were oddballs and
    I wasted a couple weeks looking for other solutions.

    The u-bolts that came with the new axles came with the destructive
    style lock nuts. I don't mind to much. I hoped to never have to deal
    with this again on this trailer anyway. On my second run to go pick
    up a truck and haul it halfway across the state over some mountains
    and some modestly substantial grades and weave through the Salt River
    Canyon two nuts came off.

    When the nuts came off I don't know, but when I went over a bump the
    axle popped off the springs and the tire slammed into the tire
    behind. I had just hit 65 mph and it suddenly felt wrong. I was
    running empty and all of a sudden it felt like I was running with a
    load. I glanced at the mirror and smoke was pouring off those tires
    so bad I thought a hub was on fire. Fortunately, there was on old
    stock yard just ahead with a lot of flat ground out front where I was
    able to safely pull out somewhere west of Coolidge. The axle coming
    loose turned out to be an easy fix. Since I was still running empty I
    just jacked the side of the trailer up, rolled the axle back in
    place, and ratchet strapped it tight. Then I whipped out my cell
    phone and entered NEAREST HARDWARE STORE into the search window.

    The U-bolt that had fallen off was just barely hanging onto the axle
    still by the extra friction of the threads. The other U-bolt was
    still attached to the cross plate by the nuts. At least I wasn't
    wondering where in small town Arizona I was going to find U-bolts.

    There was a Tractor Supply store in Coolidge that had TWO (2) (just
    two) 9/16 fine nuts. They were in the wrong bin, but I found them.
    With that, a couple fresh lock washers, and copious amounts of red
    high strength Permatex thread locker I crawled under the trailer in
    the parking lot to fix it.

    Coming back I stopped and checked the trailer and my load at every
    brake check lane and pullout. With a 3/4 ton Dodge w/ Cummins on the
    back I made it back through the mountains and across the Salt River
    Canyon almost with out incident. Somewhere on a long flat Southwest
    of Globe/Miami I glanced in the mirror to see one of the hooks for a
    front strap laying on the trailer deck. The strap broke where it went
    over the frame.  Fortunately I had left the winch cable tight or I
    might have lost the truck.

    I'm too old for this sort of adventure. I prepared for everything I
    could think of. Brought tools, and materials for emergencies, and did
    everything I could think of to prevent problems before setting out.

    Yes, the nuts were torqued down properly both times. LOL.

    Yeah, I know... there are plenty among you who can tell me everything
    they think I did wrong, but at the end I made it home. Now I have to
    get that truck back off the trailer.

    Good to hear no serious damage or injury. What do you mean by a
    destructive locknut, It's not something I've heard of before. I wonder
    if it was poor quality hardware. I was reading recently about a guy
    that was rebuilding the diff and final drive in his car and decided to
    use new bolts for the CW fixing but they failed when tightened before
    he reach the correct torque, apparently made in Asia, he re-used the
    original ones in the end and no problems.


    I know you guys have to know what I am talking about.  There is a type
    of lock nut that is dimpled or punched that partially mangles the
    threads when installed to lock it in place.  These have square punch
    marks on the flat.

    I know exactly what you're talking about and I hate them . Lock
    washers and LocTite work better and don't mangle the bolts . Like the
    bolts that hold the bed on my '86 GMC pickup . With almost 40 years of
    rust and road crud . I'd like you to meet my angle grinder ... because
    the last 4 are too close to the gas tank for the Blue Wrench .
    --
    Snag
    "They may take our lives but
    they'll never take our freedom."
    William Wallace

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  • From Snag@21:1/5 to Joe Gwinn on Fri Apr 12 17:10:46 2024
    On 4/12/2024 5:01 PM, Joe Gwinn wrote:
    On Fri, 12 Apr 2024 13:36:58 -0700, Bob La Londe <none@none.com99>
    wrote:

    On 4/12/2024 1:26 PM, David Billington wrote:
    On 12/04/2024 21:14, Bob La Londe wrote:
    I recently had to install new axles on a trailer in order to get
    working brakes on the trailer... Don't lecture me about how you could
    have done this or that and not replaced them. They were oddballs and I >>>> wasted a couple weeks looking for other solutions.

    The u-bolts that came with the new axles came with the destructive
    style lock nuts. I don't mind to much. I hoped to never have to deal
    with this again on this trailer anyway. On my second run to go pick up >>>> a truck and haul it halfway across the state over some mountains and
    some modestly substantial grades and weave through the Salt River
    Canyon two nuts came off.

    When the nuts came off I don't know, but when I went over a bump the
    axle popped off the springs and the tire slammed into the tire behind. >>>> I had just hit 65 mph and it suddenly felt wrong. I was running empty
    and all of a sudden it felt like I was running with a load. I glanced
    at the mirror and smoke was pouring off those tires so bad I thought a >>>> hub was on fire. Fortunately, there was on old stock yard just ahead
    with a lot of flat ground out front where I was able to safely pull
    out somewhere west of Coolidge. The axle coming loose turned out to be >>>> an easy fix. Since I was still running empty I just jacked the side of >>>> the trailer up, rolled the axle back in place, and ratchet strapped it >>>> tight. Then I whipped out my cell phone and entered NEAREST HARDWARE
    STORE into the search window.

    The U-bolt that had fallen off was just barely hanging onto the axle
    still by the extra friction of the threads. The other U-bolt was still >>>> attached to the cross plate by the nuts. At least I wasn't wondering
    where in small town Arizona I was going to find U-bolts.

    There was a Tractor Supply store in Coolidge that had TWO (2) (just
    two) 9/16 fine nuts. They were in the wrong bin, but I found them.
    With that, a couple fresh lock washers, and copious amounts of red
    high strength Permatex thread locker I crawled under the trailer in
    the parking lot to fix it.

    Coming back I stopped and checked the trailer and my load at every
    brake check lane and pullout. With a 3/4 ton Dodge w/ Cummins on the
    back I made it back through the mountains and across the Salt River
    Canyon almost with out incident. Somewhere on a long flat Southwest of >>>> Globe/Miami I glanced in the mirror to see one of the hooks for a
    front strap laying on the trailer deck. The strap broke where it went
    over the frame.  Fortunately I had left the winch cable tight or I
    might have lost the truck.

    I'm too old for this sort of adventure. I prepared for everything I
    could think of. Brought tools, and materials for emergencies, and did
    everything I could think of to prevent problems before setting out.

    Yes, the nuts were torqued down properly both times. LOL.

    Yeah, I know... there are plenty among you who can tell me everything
    they think I did wrong, but at the end I made it home. Now I have to
    get that truck back off the trailer.

    Good to hear no serious damage or injury. What do you mean by a
    destructive locknut, It's not something I've heard of before. I wonder
    if it was poor quality hardware. I was reading recently about a guy that >>> was rebuilding the diff and final drive in his car and decided to use
    new bolts for the CW fixing but they failed when tightened before he
    reach the correct torque, apparently made in Asia, he re-used the
    original ones in the end and no problems.


    I know you guys have to know what I am talking about. There is a type
    of lock nut that is dimpled or punched that partially mangles the
    threads when installed to lock it in place. These have square punch
    marks on the flat.

    You probably want a bronze or stainless steel Drake two-piece Lock
    Nut:

    .<https://www.lok-mor.com/products/free-spinning/drake/>

    Joe Gwinn


    Looks a lot like a 40 dollar solution for a 2 dollar problem , Joe ...
    --
    Snag
    "They may take our lives but
    they'll never take our freedom."
    William Wallace

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  • From Joe Gwinn@21:1/5 to All on Fri Apr 12 18:01:08 2024
    On Fri, 12 Apr 2024 13:36:58 -0700, Bob La Londe <none@none.com99>
    wrote:

    On 4/12/2024 1:26 PM, David Billington wrote:
    On 12/04/2024 21:14, Bob La Londe wrote:
    I recently had to install new axles on a trailer in order to get
    working brakes on the trailer... Don't lecture me about how you could
    have done this or that and not replaced them. They were oddballs and I
    wasted a couple weeks looking for other solutions.

    The u-bolts that came with the new axles came with the destructive
    style lock nuts. I don't mind to much. I hoped to never have to deal
    with this again on this trailer anyway. On my second run to go pick up
    a truck and haul it halfway across the state over some mountains and
    some modestly substantial grades and weave through the Salt River
    Canyon two nuts came off.

    When the nuts came off I don't know, but when I went over a bump the
    axle popped off the springs and the tire slammed into the tire behind.
    I had just hit 65 mph and it suddenly felt wrong. I was running empty
    and all of a sudden it felt like I was running with a load. I glanced
    at the mirror and smoke was pouring off those tires so bad I thought a
    hub was on fire. Fortunately, there was on old stock yard just ahead
    with a lot of flat ground out front where I was able to safely pull
    out somewhere west of Coolidge. The axle coming loose turned out to be
    an easy fix. Since I was still running empty I just jacked the side of
    the trailer up, rolled the axle back in place, and ratchet strapped it
    tight. Then I whipped out my cell phone and entered NEAREST HARDWARE
    STORE into the search window.

    The U-bolt that had fallen off was just barely hanging onto the axle
    still by the extra friction of the threads. The other U-bolt was still
    attached to the cross plate by the nuts. At least I wasn't wondering
    where in small town Arizona I was going to find U-bolts.

    There was a Tractor Supply store in Coolidge that had TWO (2) (just
    two) 9/16 fine nuts. They were in the wrong bin, but I found them.
    With that, a couple fresh lock washers, and copious amounts of red
    high strength Permatex thread locker I crawled under the trailer in
    the parking lot to fix it.

    Coming back I stopped and checked the trailer and my load at every
    brake check lane and pullout. With a 3/4 ton Dodge w/ Cummins on the
    back I made it back through the mountains and across the Salt River
    Canyon almost with out incident. Somewhere on a long flat Southwest of
    Globe/Miami I glanced in the mirror to see one of the hooks for a
    front strap laying on the trailer deck. The strap broke where it went
    over the frame.  Fortunately I had left the winch cable tight or I
    might have lost the truck.

    I'm too old for this sort of adventure. I prepared for everything I
    could think of. Brought tools, and materials for emergencies, and did
    everything I could think of to prevent problems before setting out.

    Yes, the nuts were torqued down properly both times. LOL.

    Yeah, I know... there are plenty among you who can tell me everything
    they think I did wrong, but at the end I made it home. Now I have to
    get that truck back off the trailer.

    Good to hear no serious damage or injury. What do you mean by a
    destructive locknut, It's not something I've heard of before. I wonder
    if it was poor quality hardware. I was reading recently about a guy that
    was rebuilding the diff and final drive in his car and decided to use
    new bolts for the CW fixing but they failed when tightened before he
    reach the correct torque, apparently made in Asia, he re-used the
    original ones in the end and no problems.


    I know you guys have to know what I am talking about. There is a type
    of lock nut that is dimpled or punched that partially mangles the
    threads when installed to lock it in place. These have square punch
    marks on the flat.

    You probably want a bronze or stainless steel Drake two-piece Lock
    Nut:

    .<https://www.lok-mor.com/products/free-spinning/drake/>

    Joe Gwinn

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
    * Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)
  • From Clare Snyder@21:1/5 to All on Fri Apr 12 21:37:46 2024
    On Fri, 12 Apr 2024 13:36:58 -0700, Bob La Londe <none@none.com99>
    wrote:

    On 4/12/2024 1:26 PM, David Billington wrote:
    On 12/04/2024 21:14, Bob La Londe wrote:
    I recently had to install new axles on a trailer in order to get
    working brakes on the trailer... Don't lecture me about how you could
    have done this or that and not replaced them. They were oddballs and I
    wasted a couple weeks looking for other solutions.

    The u-bolts that came with the new axles came with the destructive
    style lock nuts. I don't mind to much. I hoped to never have to deal
    with this again on this trailer anyway. On my second run to go pick up
    a truck and haul it halfway across the state over some mountains and
    some modestly substantial grades and weave through the Salt River
    Canyon two nuts came off.

    When the nuts came off I don't know, but when I went over a bump the
    axle popped off the springs and the tire slammed into the tire behind.
    I had just hit 65 mph and it suddenly felt wrong. I was running empty
    and all of a sudden it felt like I was running with a load. I glanced
    at the mirror and smoke was pouring off those tires so bad I thought a
    hub was on fire. Fortunately, there was on old stock yard just ahead
    with a lot of flat ground out front where I was able to safely pull
    out somewhere west of Coolidge. The axle coming loose turned out to be
    an easy fix. Since I was still running empty I just jacked the side of
    the trailer up, rolled the axle back in place, and ratchet strapped it
    tight. Then I whipped out my cell phone and entered NEAREST HARDWARE
    STORE into the search window.

    The U-bolt that had fallen off was just barely hanging onto the axle
    still by the extra friction of the threads. The other U-bolt was still
    attached to the cross plate by the nuts. At least I wasn't wondering
    where in small town Arizona I was going to find U-bolts.

    There was a Tractor Supply store in Coolidge that had TWO (2) (just
    two) 9/16 fine nuts. They were in the wrong bin, but I found them.
    With that, a couple fresh lock washers, and copious amounts of red
    high strength Permatex thread locker I crawled under the trailer in
    the parking lot to fix it.

    Coming back I stopped and checked the trailer and my load at every
    brake check lane and pullout. With a 3/4 ton Dodge w/ Cummins on the
    back I made it back through the mountains and across the Salt River
    Canyon almost with out incident. Somewhere on a long flat Southwest of
    Globe/Miami I glanced in the mirror to see one of the hooks for a
    front strap laying on the trailer deck. The strap broke where it went
    over the frame.  Fortunately I had left the winch cable tight or I
    might have lost the truck.

    I'm too old for this sort of adventure. I prepared for everything I
    could think of. Brought tools, and materials for emergencies, and did
    everything I could think of to prevent problems before setting out.

    Yes, the nuts were torqued down properly both times. LOL.

    Yeah, I know... there are plenty among you who can tell me everything
    they think I did wrong, but at the end I made it home. Now I have to
    get that truck back off the trailer.

    Good to hear no serious damage or injury. What do you mean by a
    destructive locknut, It's not something I've heard of before. I wonder
    if it was poor quality hardware. I was reading recently about a guy that
    was rebuilding the diff and final drive in his car and decided to use
    new bolts for the CW fixing but they failed when tightened before he
    reach the correct torque, apparently made in Asia, he re-used the
    original ones in the end and no problems.


    I know you guys have to know what I am talking about. There is a type
    of lock nut that is dimpled or punched that partially mangles the
    threads when installed to lock it in place. These have square punch
    marks on the flat.
    --
    Bob La Londe
    CNC Molds N Stuff
    They are called a "prevailing torque" "top distortion" nut -or a
    "side distortion" nut. There are also "two way" locknuts Then there
    arer "gripco" "crownlock" nuts
    NONE of them are inherently "destructive" and all are considered
    "re-useable"
    There are also "stover" nuts and "FujiLoks"

    All of these can be used in various temperature situations including
    under cowl in aircrafdt - while "nylock" and "fiberlock" are
    restricted in aviation - and should be used with caution anywhere
    higher temps are anticipated.
    The only "destructive" locknuts I've run into are stainless steel
    nuts - paricularly on stainless fasteners - sometimes even with
    anti-seize, which gall and microweld themselves together - - - - The
    square punch marks centered on the flats sound like possibly 2 ways.
    Not flanged nuts, right? What grade bolt? Using prevailing torque nuts
    designed for a higher grade bolt CAN make them "destructive"

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  • From Bob La Londe@21:1/5 to Joe Gwinn on Sat Apr 13 11:45:50 2024
    On 4/13/2024 11:25 AM, Joe Gwinn wrote:
    On Sat, 13 Apr 2024 08:05:57 -0400, "Jim Wilkins"
    <muratlanne@gmail.com> wrote:

    "Snag" wrote in message news:uvcbh7$2jb8r$1@dont-email.me...

    On 4/12/2024 5:01 PM, Joe Gwinn wrote:
    On Fri, 12 Apr 2024 13:36:58 -0700, Bob La Londe <none@none.com99>
    wrote:


    You probably want a bronze or stainless steel Drake two-piece Lock
    Nut:

    .<https://www.lok-mor.com/products/free-spinning/drake/>

    Joe Gwinn


    Looks a lot like a 40 dollar solution for a 2 dollar problem , Joe ...
    Snag

    ------------------------------------
    I look for reliable methods using easily available hardware or auto store
    products, such as doubled nuts. If necessary they can be modified on the
    lathe or drilled for safety wire.

    The OP was complaining that nothing he tried really worked, causing
    danger to man and beast, and not so much about the cost of the
    hardware, and Drake Nuts are the gold standard. They simply don't
    shake loose. Finger tight causes noticeable locking.

    Failing that, I'd try a thick nut and a jam nut tightened hard against
    one another. And Loctite don't hurt. I recall from a study I read
    that one puts the jam nut under the thick nut for best shake
    resistance. Lok-Mor may have the study I recall, or it was an old
    NASA study.

    Joe Gwinn

    Well, I didn't actually say that. Just that two of the nuts came off
    for no good reason. I did install regular Gr-8 nuts and lock washers
    with red Permatex thread locker to finish my adventure. Afterwards it
    made the trip up up to Globe/Miami over the mountains, down and back up
    through Salt River Canyon, and then on up and down the grades into Show
    Low. There I loaded a full size 3/4 ton diesel pickup and made the
    reverse trip braking and engine braking up and down some modestly steep inclines. Enough so that there were brake check areas and emergency
    runaway pullouts.

    This morning I ordered a box of each of gr-8 lock washers and nuts. The
    cost of which was about the same (a little less) as the couple items I
    bought at the Tractor Supply store in Coolidge to make repairs. Before
    I make another such trip I'll be replacing all the lock nuts with
    regular GR-8 nuts and high strength thread locker. As near as I can
    tell the threads on the u-bolts are fine and they do not appear to have stretched, but of course I didn't clamp them up and measure them. Two
    of the original nuts just failed to hold. The new nuts did spin easily
    into place (which surprised me).

    These are a pair of six ton axles and they were not cheap. They were
    just the closest to the correct size for the application that I could
    find.

    I've got a fair amount of faith in liquid thread locker. I've used
    Permatex, Vibratite, and of course Loc-Tite brands with good results
    over the years.

    I'm not opposed to more expensive solutions. I just don't think its
    necessary here. I did look at your link and I can see places it would
    be useful.



    --
    Bob La Londe
    CNC Molds N Stuff


    --
    This email has been checked for viruses by AVG antivirus software.
    www.avg.com

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  • From Joe Gwinn@21:1/5 to muratlanne@gmail.com on Sat Apr 13 14:25:59 2024
    On Sat, 13 Apr 2024 08:05:57 -0400, "Jim Wilkins"
    <muratlanne@gmail.com> wrote:

    "Snag" wrote in message news:uvcbh7$2jb8r$1@dont-email.me...

    On 4/12/2024 5:01 PM, Joe Gwinn wrote:
    On Fri, 12 Apr 2024 13:36:58 -0700, Bob La Londe <none@none.com99>
    wrote:


    You probably want a bronze or stainless steel Drake two-piece Lock
    Nut:

    .<https://www.lok-mor.com/products/free-spinning/drake/>

    Joe Gwinn


    Looks a lot like a 40 dollar solution for a 2 dollar problem , Joe ...
    Snag

    ------------------------------------
    I look for reliable methods using easily available hardware or auto store >products, such as doubled nuts. If necessary they can be modified on the >lathe or drilled for safety wire.

    The OP was complaining that nothing he tried really worked, causing
    danger to man and beast, and not so much about the cost of the
    hardware, and Drake Nuts are the gold standard. They simply don't
    shake loose. Finger tight causes noticeable locking.

    Failing that, I'd try a thick nut and a jam nut tightened hard against
    one another. And Loctite don't hurt. I recall from a study I read
    that one puts the jam nut under the thick nut for best shake
    resistance. Lok-Mor may have the study I recall, or it was an old
    NASA study.

    Joe Gwinn

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    * Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)
  • From Joe Gwinn@21:1/5 to All on Sat Apr 13 18:16:20 2024
    On Sat, 13 Apr 2024 11:45:50 -0700, Bob La Londe <none@none.com99>
    wrote:

    On 4/13/2024 11:25 AM, Joe Gwinn wrote:
    On Sat, 13 Apr 2024 08:05:57 -0400, "Jim Wilkins"
    <muratlanne@gmail.com> wrote:

    "Snag" wrote in message news:uvcbh7$2jb8r$1@dont-email.me...

    On 4/12/2024 5:01 PM, Joe Gwinn wrote:
    On Fri, 12 Apr 2024 13:36:58 -0700, Bob La Londe <none@none.com99>
    wrote:


    You probably want a bronze or stainless steel Drake two-piece Lock
    Nut:

    .<https://www.lok-mor.com/products/free-spinning/drake/>

    Joe Gwinn


    Looks a lot like a 40 dollar solution for a 2 dollar problem , Joe ...
    Snag

    ------------------------------------
    I look for reliable methods using easily available hardware or auto store >>> products, such as doubled nuts. If necessary they can be modified on the >>> lathe or drilled for safety wire.

    The OP was complaining that nothing he tried really worked, causing
    danger to man and beast, and not so much about the cost of the
    hardware, and Drake Nuts are the gold standard. They simply don't
    shake loose. Finger tight causes noticeable locking.

    Failing that, I'd try a thick nut and a jam nut tightened hard against
    one another. And Loctite don't hurt. I recall from a study I read
    that one puts the jam nut under the thick nut for best shake
    resistance. Lok-Mor may have the study I recall, or it was an old
    NASA study.

    Joe Gwinn

    Well, I didn't actually say that.

    True, not those words, but this:

    "Somewhere on a long flat Southwest of Globe/Miami I glanced in the
    mirror to see one of the hooks for a front strap laying on the trailer
    deck. The strap broke where it went over the frame.  Fortunately I had
    left the winch cable tight or I might have lost the truck."

    Losing the truck on the highway is likely to cause a accident, and
    maybe a double accident (the departing truck may go sidewise,
    destabilizing the truck pulling or carrying everything). Free-range
    rolling truck tires are bad enough. Bloodcurdling.

    This would have terrified me for sure.


    .... Just that two of the nuts came off
    for no good reason. I did install regular Gr-8 nuts and lock washers
    with red Permatex thread locker to finish my adventure. Afterwards it
    made the trip up up to Globe/Miami over the mountains, down and back up >through Salt River Canyon, and then on up and down the grades into Show
    Low. There I loaded a full size 3/4 ton diesel pickup and made the
    reverse trip braking and engine braking up and down some modestly steep >inclines. Enough so that there were brake check areas and emergency
    runaway pullouts.

    This morning I ordered a box of each of gr-8 lock washers and nuts. The
    cost of which was about the same (a little less) as the couple items I
    bought at the Tractor Supply store in Coolidge to make repairs. Before
    I make another such trip I'll be replacing all the lock nuts with
    regular GR-8 nuts and high strength thread locker. As near as I can
    tell the threads on the u-bolts are fine and they do not appear to have >stretched, but of course I didn't clamp them up and measure them. Two
    of the original nuts just failed to hold. The new nuts did spin easily
    into place (which surprised me).

    These are a pair of six ton axles and they were not cheap. They were
    just the closest to the correct size for the application that I could
    find.

    I've got a fair amount of faith in liquid thread locker. I've used
    Permatex, Vibratite, and of course Loc-Tite brands with good results
    over the years.

    I'm not opposed to more expensive solutions. I just don't think its >necessary here. I did look at your link and I can see places it would
    be useful.

    I would submit that compared to the cost of an accident, a few Drake
    Nuts are insignificant.


    By the way, Drake Nuts were invented in the 1910s, US 1,271,449.

    And the analysis I couldn't remember was published in July 1922, and
    did compare the Drake Nut with the thin jam nut with regular nut (with
    jam nut between the big nut and whatever is being clamped). Drake
    Nuts worked regardless, but the big nut and jam nut assembly would
    shake loose. But this was before Loctite; this ought to work. The
    distorted nuts were also analyzed, and didn't win.

    Joe

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  • From Bob La Londe@21:1/5 to Joe Gwinn on Sat Apr 13 17:21:31 2024
    On 4/13/2024 3:16 PM, Joe Gwinn wrote:
    On Sat, 13 Apr 2024 11:45:50 -0700, Bob La Londe <none@none.com99>
    wrote:

    On 4/13/2024 11:25 AM, Joe Gwinn wrote:
    On Sat, 13 Apr 2024 08:05:57 -0400, "Jim Wilkins"
    <muratlanne@gmail.com> wrote:

    "Snag" wrote in message news:uvcbh7$2jb8r$1@dont-email.me...

    On 4/12/2024 5:01 PM, Joe Gwinn wrote:
    On Fri, 12 Apr 2024 13:36:58 -0700, Bob La Londe <none@none.com99>
    wrote:


    You probably want a bronze or stainless steel Drake two-piece Lock
    Nut:

    .<https://www.lok-mor.com/products/free-spinning/drake/>

    Joe Gwinn


    Looks a lot like a 40 dollar solution for a 2 dollar problem , Joe ... >>>> Snag

    ------------------------------------
    I look for reliable methods using easily available hardware or auto store >>>> products, such as doubled nuts. If necessary they can be modified on the >>>> lathe or drilled for safety wire.

    The OP was complaining that nothing he tried really worked, causing
    danger to man and beast, and not so much about the cost of the
    hardware, and Drake Nuts are the gold standard. They simply don't
    shake loose. Finger tight causes noticeable locking.

    Failing that, I'd try a thick nut and a jam nut tightened hard against
    one another. And Loctite don't hurt. I recall from a study I read
    that one puts the jam nut under the thick nut for best shake
    resistance. Lok-Mor may have the study I recall, or it was an old
    NASA study.

    Joe Gwinn

    Well, I didn't actually say that.

    True, not those words, but this:

    "Somewhere on a long flat Southwest of Globe/Miami I glanced in the
    mirror to see one of the hooks for a front strap laying on the trailer
    deck. The strap broke where it went over the frame.  Fortunately I had
    left the winch cable tight or I might have lost the truck."

    Losing the truck on the highway is likely to cause a accident, and
    maybe a double accident (the departing truck may go sidewise,
    destabilizing the truck pulling or carrying everything). Free-range
    rolling truck tires are bad enough. Bloodcurdling.

    This would have terrified me for sure.


    .... Just that two of the nuts came off
    for no good reason. I did install regular Gr-8 nuts and lock washers
    with red Permatex thread locker to finish my adventure. Afterwards it
    made the trip up up to Globe/Miami over the mountains, down and back up
    through Salt River Canyon, and then on up and down the grades into Show
    Low. There I loaded a full size 3/4 ton diesel pickup and made the
    reverse trip braking and engine braking up and down some modestly steep
    inclines. Enough so that there were brake check areas and emergency
    runaway pullouts.

    This morning I ordered a box of each of gr-8 lock washers and nuts. The
    cost of which was about the same (a little less) as the couple items I
    bought at the Tractor Supply store in Coolidge to make repairs. Before
    I make another such trip I'll be replacing all the lock nuts with
    regular GR-8 nuts and high strength thread locker. As near as I can
    tell the threads on the u-bolts are fine and they do not appear to have
    stretched, but of course I didn't clamp them up and measure them. Two
    of the original nuts just failed to hold. The new nuts did spin easily
    into place (which surprised me).

    These are a pair of six ton axles and they were not cheap. They were
    just the closest to the correct size for the application that I could
    find.

    I've got a fair amount of faith in liquid thread locker. I've used
    Permatex, Vibratite, and of course Loc-Tite brands with good results
    over the years.

    I'm not opposed to more expensive solutions. I just don't think its
    necessary here. I did look at your link and I can see places it would
    be useful.

    I would submit that compared to the cost of an accident, a few Drake
    Nuts are insignificant.


    By the way, Drake Nuts were invented in the 1910s, US 1,271,449.

    And the analysis I couldn't remember was published in July 1922, and
    did compare the Drake Nut with the thin jam nut with regular nut (with
    jam nut between the big nut and whatever is being clamped). Drake
    Nuts worked regardless, but the big nut and jam nut assembly would
    shake loose. But this was before Loctite; this ought to work. The
    distorted nuts were also analyzed, and didn't win.

    Joe


    I must add a correction. Pair of 6K (3 ton) axles. Not 6 ton. Net
    load with the payload of the truck (tongue weight on the goose neck
    hitch) is probably around 14K, but I only licensed the trailer for 10K.

    Before rolling out of Show Low I told somebody who stopped to check if I
    was alright, "I am just double checking my load. I don't want the truck
    to come loose, fall down the side of the mountain, and take me with it."

    In the grades I stopped at every brake check and a few other places to
    do a walk around feeling the hubs, tires, and the tension on each strap.
    I did leave the winch cable in place on purpose with the intent it was
    a safety backup if not necessarily a great one. I will do tie downs a
    little differently in the future as well. I ran a single strap on the
    front, which is strong enough, but when it parted except for the winch
    cable there was nothing keeping the truck from rolling back except a
    rather meager bit of friction from the parking brake. I guess the
    parking brake was a second safety in case the strap broke, and the winch
    clutch slipped. The truck had not moved. The straps in the back were
    still tight. When I resecured it I used two straps in the front like I probably should have to begin with. I've hauled equipment before using
    chains and its pretty common to cross secure with a single chain in the
    front and a single chain in the rear if it gos across more than one
    point on the piece of equipment. I had hauling chains and binders with
    me also, but there wasn't really a good place to route them and be sure
    of getting good tension with the chain binders. The straps slid over
    the frame in the small clearance that was available just fine.

    I might also buy a new set of straps. Some of these have been around
    since I hauled my Hurco mill back from Hemet California in 2010.
    Actually I have some new straps, but they are the type with flat plate
    hooks intended for securing loads straight across. They would not have
    held properly for this type of load. I had lots of stuff with me for
    the haul.

    On my first haul (another similar size truck) I had a wheel hub get hot
    enough to be painful to the touch on the run out running empty. I reset
    the castle nut tension and pumped some more grease into the easy grease
    zirc. It was fine, but I put my hand on it every time I got out of the
    truck just to be sure.

    This was my second haul on these axles.

    I've used this trailer on the old axles to haul my tractor and a few
    other things before.



    --
    Bob La Londe
    CNC Molds N Stuff


    --
    This email has been checked for viruses by AVG antivirus software.
    www.avg.com

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  • From Clare Snyder@21:1/5 to All on Sat Apr 13 21:39:58 2024
    On Sat, 13 Apr 2024 18:16:20 -0400, Joe Gwinn <joegwinn@comcast.net>
    wrote:

    On Sat, 13 Apr 2024 11:45:50 -0700, Bob La Londe <none@none.com99>
    wrote:

    On 4/13/2024 11:25 AM, Joe Gwinn wrote:
    On Sat, 13 Apr 2024 08:05:57 -0400, "Jim Wilkins"
    <muratlanne@gmail.com> wrote:

    "Snag" wrote in message news:uvcbh7$2jb8r$1@dont-email.me...

    On 4/12/2024 5:01 PM, Joe Gwinn wrote:
    On Fri, 12 Apr 2024 13:36:58 -0700, Bob La Londe <none@none.com99>
    wrote:


    You probably want a bronze or stainless steel Drake two-piece Lock
    Nut:

    .<https://www.lok-mor.com/products/free-spinning/drake/>

    Joe Gwinn


    Looks a lot like a 40 dollar solution for a 2 dollar problem , Joe ... >>>> Snag

    ------------------------------------
    I look for reliable methods using easily available hardware or auto store >>>> products, such as doubled nuts. If necessary they can be modified on the >>>> lathe or drilled for safety wire.

    The OP was complaining that nothing he tried really worked, causing
    danger to man and beast, and not so much about the cost of the
    hardware, and Drake Nuts are the gold standard. They simply don't
    shake loose. Finger tight causes noticeable locking.

    Failing that, I'd try a thick nut and a jam nut tightened hard against
    one another. And Loctite don't hurt. I recall from a study I read
    that one puts the jam nut under the thick nut for best shake
    resistance. Lok-Mor may have the study I recall, or it was an old
    NASA study.

    Joe Gwinn

    Well, I didn't actually say that.

    True, not those words, but this:

    "Somewhere on a long flat Southwest of Globe/Miami I glanced in the
    mirror to see one of the hooks for a front strap laying on the trailer
    deck. The strap broke where it went over the frame.  Fortunately I had
    left the winch cable tight or I might have lost the truck."

    Losing the truck on the highway is likely to cause a accident, and
    maybe a double accident (the departing truck may go sidewise,
    destabilizing the truck pulling or carrying everything). Free-range
    rolling truck tires are bad enough. Bloodcurdling.

    This would have terrified me for sure.


    .... Just that two of the nuts came off
    for no good reason. I did install regular Gr-8 nuts and lock washers
    with red Permatex thread locker to finish my adventure. Afterwards it
    made the trip up up to Globe/Miami over the mountains, down and back up >>through Salt River Canyon, and then on up and down the grades into Show >>Low. There I loaded a full size 3/4 ton diesel pickup and made the
    reverse trip braking and engine braking up and down some modestly steep >>inclines. Enough so that there were brake check areas and emergency >>runaway pullouts.

    This morning I ordered a box of each of gr-8 lock washers and nuts. The >>cost of which was about the same (a little less) as the couple items I >>bought at the Tractor Supply store in Coolidge to make repairs. Before
    I make another such trip I'll be replacing all the lock nuts with
    regular GR-8 nuts and high strength thread locker. As near as I can
    tell the threads on the u-bolts are fine and they do not appear to have >>stretched, but of course I didn't clamp them up and measure them. Two
    of the original nuts just failed to hold. The new nuts did spin easily
    into place (which surprised me).

    These are a pair of six ton axles and they were not cheap. They were
    just the closest to the correct size for the application that I could
    find.

    I've got a fair amount of faith in liquid thread locker. I've used >>Permatex, Vibratite, and of course Loc-Tite brands with good results
    over the years.

    I'm not opposed to more expensive solutions. I just don't think its >>necessary here. I did look at your link and I can see places it would
    be useful.

    I would submit that compared to the cost of an accident, a few Drake
    Nuts are insignificant.


    By the way, Drake Nuts were invented in the 1910s, US 1,271,449.

    And the analysis I couldn't remember was published in July 1922, and
    did compare the Drake Nut with the thin jam nut with regular nut (with
    jam nut between the big nut and whatever is being clamped). Drake
    Nuts worked regardless, but the big nut and jam nut assembly would
    shake loose. But this was before Loctite; this ought to work. The
    distorted nuts were also analyzed, and didn't win.

    Joe
    For suspension bolts I like flanged locknuts. NEVER split lock
    washers!!. A serated nut with attached serated washer (LoxNut) is the
    cat's ass. WhizLock nuts are a close second - particularly when
    installed with medium lock-tite.

    Fijilok nuts work very well on adjustable threaded linkage - better
    than NyLok
    Flanged side distortion or top distortion nuts work well too -
    particularly with medium lock-tite.

    If you MUST use lock washers, Nord-Lock or Disk-Lock. Either one
    requires 50% more torque to remove than the install torque (torque
    stud to 100 lb/ft and it takes 150 to break it loose)

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
    * Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)
  • From Joe Gwinn@21:1/5 to All on Sun Apr 14 13:08:35 2024
    On Sat, 13 Apr 2024 21:39:58 -0400, Clare Snyder <clare@snyder.on.ca>
    wrote:

    On Sat, 13 Apr 2024 18:16:20 -0400, Joe Gwinn <joegwinn@comcast.net>
    wrote:

    On Sat, 13 Apr 2024 11:45:50 -0700, Bob La Londe <none@none.com99>
    wrote:

    On 4/13/2024 11:25 AM, Joe Gwinn wrote:
    On Sat, 13 Apr 2024 08:05:57 -0400, "Jim Wilkins"
    <muratlanne@gmail.com> wrote:

    "Snag" wrote in message news:uvcbh7$2jb8r$1@dont-email.me...

    On 4/12/2024 5:01 PM, Joe Gwinn wrote:
    On Fri, 12 Apr 2024 13:36:58 -0700, Bob La Londe <none@none.com99> >>>>>> wrote:


    You probably want a bronze or stainless steel Drake two-piece Lock >>>>>> Nut:

    .<https://www.lok-mor.com/products/free-spinning/drake/>

    Joe Gwinn


    Looks a lot like a 40 dollar solution for a 2 dollar problem , Joe ... >>>>> Snag

    ------------------------------------
    I look for reliable methods using easily available hardware or auto store >>>>> products, such as doubled nuts. If necessary they can be modified on the >>>>> lathe or drilled for safety wire.

    The OP was complaining that nothing he tried really worked, causing
    danger to man and beast, and not so much about the cost of the
    hardware, and Drake Nuts are the gold standard. They simply don't
    shake loose. Finger tight causes noticeable locking.

    Failing that, I'd try a thick nut and a jam nut tightened hard against >>>> one another. And Loctite don't hurt. I recall from a study I read
    that one puts the jam nut under the thick nut for best shake
    resistance. Lok-Mor may have the study I recall, or it was an old
    NASA study.

    Joe Gwinn

    Well, I didn't actually say that.

    True, not those words, but this:

    "Somewhere on a long flat Southwest of Globe/Miami I glanced in the
    mirror to see one of the hooks for a front strap laying on the trailer >>deck. The strap broke where it went over the frame.  Fortunately I had
    left the winch cable tight or I might have lost the truck."

    Losing the truck on the highway is likely to cause a accident, and
    maybe a double accident (the departing truck may go sidewise,
    destabilizing the truck pulling or carrying everything). Free-range
    rolling truck tires are bad enough. Bloodcurdling.

    This would have terrified me for sure.


    .... Just that two of the nuts came off
    for no good reason. I did install regular Gr-8 nuts and lock washers >>>with red Permatex thread locker to finish my adventure. Afterwards it >>>made the trip up up to Globe/Miami over the mountains, down and back up >>>through Salt River Canyon, and then on up and down the grades into Show >>>Low. There I loaded a full size 3/4 ton diesel pickup and made the >>>reverse trip braking and engine braking up and down some modestly steep >>>inclines. Enough so that there were brake check areas and emergency >>>runaway pullouts.

    This morning I ordered a box of each of gr-8 lock washers and nuts. The >>>cost of which was about the same (a little less) as the couple items I >>>bought at the Tractor Supply store in Coolidge to make repairs. Before
    I make another such trip I'll be replacing all the lock nuts with
    regular GR-8 nuts and high strength thread locker. As near as I can
    tell the threads on the u-bolts are fine and they do not appear to have >>>stretched, but of course I didn't clamp them up and measure them. Two
    of the original nuts just failed to hold. The new nuts did spin easily >>>into place (which surprised me).

    These are a pair of six ton axles and they were not cheap. They were >>>just the closest to the correct size for the application that I could >>>find.

    I've got a fair amount of faith in liquid thread locker. I've used >>>Permatex, Vibratite, and of course Loc-Tite brands with good results
    over the years.

    I'm not opposed to more expensive solutions. I just don't think its >>>necessary here. I did look at your link and I can see places it would
    be useful.

    I would submit that compared to the cost of an accident, a few Drake
    Nuts are insignificant.


    By the way, Drake Nuts were invented in the 1910s, US 1,271,449.

    And the analysis I couldn't remember was published in July 1922, and
    did compare the Drake Nut with the thin jam nut with regular nut (with
    jam nut between the big nut and whatever is being clamped). Drake
    Nuts worked regardless, but the big nut and jam nut assembly would
    shake loose. But this was before Loctite; this ought to work. The >>distorted nuts were also analyzed, and didn't win.

    Joe
    For suspension bolts I like flanged locknuts. NEVER split lock
    washers!!.

    Agree - they are useless, as are the star lock washers.


    A serated nut with attached serated washer (LoxNut) is the
    cat's ass. WhizLock nuts are a close second - particularly when
    installed with medium lock-tite.

    Google didn't find LoxNut - buried under food stuff. URL?

    WhizNut did work, and it's only for cases where the thing being
    clamped is a good bit softer than the nut. <https://www.mcmaster.com/products/whiz-nuts/>


    Fijilok nuts work very well on adjustable threaded linkage - better
    than NyLok

    Fijilok not found, buried under irrelevant stuff.


    Flanged side distortion or top distortion nuts work well too -
    particularly with medium lock-tite.

    Do distorted nuts with loctite work better than plain nuts with
    loctite?


    If you MUST use lock washers, Nord-Lock or Disk-Lock. Either one
    requires 50% more torque to remove than the install torque (torque
    stud to 100 lb/ft and it takes 150 to break it loose)


    Nord-Lock is very good. <https://www.nord-lock.com/en-us/>

    I had to look Disk-Lock up. <https://www.sherex.com/>

    It is the Nord-Lock system (whose patents must have expired by now),
    cloned and maybe improved. I would assume that it is also very good.

    But I do think that while expensive, Drake Nuts are a whole lot
    better. But this is the right conversation to be having.

    War story. A family member was towing a boat trailer, but had not
    attached the safety chains properly. If that trailer came loose,
    someone was going to die. Whereupon I put my foot down and made him
    use beefy threaded quick links.

    <https://www.mcmaster.com/products/quick-links/>

    So, I'd also consider adding some safety chains.


    Joe Gwinn

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
    * Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)
  • From Leon Fisk@21:1/5 to Joe Gwinn on Sun Apr 14 14:03:12 2024
    On Sun, 14 Apr 2024 13:08:35 -0400
    Joe Gwinn <joegwinn@comcast.net> wrote:

    <snip>
    Google didn't find LoxNut - buried under food stuff. URL?

    Found this tidbit:

    An-cor-lox nut has a ring of soft metal, such as soft steel or brass at the bottom of
    the nut which turns on freely until the nut strikes the part.

    --
    Leon Fisk
    Grand Rapids MI

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
    * Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)
  • From Bob La Londe@21:1/5 to Joe Gwinn on Sun Apr 14 10:48:04 2024
    On 4/14/2024 10:08 AM, Joe Gwinn wrote:
    On Sat, 13 Apr 2024 21:39:58 -0400, Clare Snyder <clare@snyder.on.ca>
    wrote:

    On Sat, 13 Apr 2024 18:16:20 -0400, Joe Gwinn <joegwinn@comcast.net>
    wrote:

    On Sat, 13 Apr 2024 11:45:50 -0700, Bob La Londe <none@none.com99>
    wrote:

    On 4/13/2024 11:25 AM, Joe Gwinn wrote:
    On Sat, 13 Apr 2024 08:05:57 -0400, "Jim Wilkins"
    <muratlanne@gmail.com> wrote:

    "Snag" wrote in message news:uvcbh7$2jb8r$1@dont-email.me...

    On 4/12/2024 5:01 PM, Joe Gwinn wrote:
    On Fri, 12 Apr 2024 13:36:58 -0700, Bob La Londe <none@none.com99> >>>>>>> wrote:


    You probably want a bronze or stainless steel Drake two-piece Lock >>>>>>> Nut:

    .<https://www.lok-mor.com/products/free-spinning/drake/>

    Joe Gwinn


    Looks a lot like a 40 dollar solution for a 2 dollar problem , Joe ... >>>>>> Snag

    ------------------------------------
    I look for reliable methods using easily available hardware or auto store
    products, such as doubled nuts. If necessary they can be modified on the >>>>>> lathe or drilled for safety wire.

    The OP was complaining that nothing he tried really worked, causing
    danger to man and beast, and not so much about the cost of the
    hardware, and Drake Nuts are the gold standard. They simply don't
    shake loose. Finger tight causes noticeable locking.

    Failing that, I'd try a thick nut and a jam nut tightened hard against >>>>> one another. And Loctite don't hurt. I recall from a study I read
    that one puts the jam nut under the thick nut for best shake
    resistance. Lok-Mor may have the study I recall, or it was an old
    NASA study.

    Joe Gwinn

    Well, I didn't actually say that.

    True, not those words, but this:

    "Somewhere on a long flat Southwest of Globe/Miami I glanced in the
    mirror to see one of the hooks for a front strap laying on the trailer
    deck. The strap broke where it went over the frame.  Fortunately I had
    left the winch cable tight or I might have lost the truck."

    Losing the truck on the highway is likely to cause a accident, and
    maybe a double accident (the departing truck may go sidewise,
    destabilizing the truck pulling or carrying everything). Free-range
    rolling truck tires are bad enough. Bloodcurdling.

    This would have terrified me for sure.


    .... Just that two of the nuts came off
    for no good reason. I did install regular Gr-8 nuts and lock washers
    with red Permatex thread locker to finish my adventure. Afterwards it >>>> made the trip up up to Globe/Miami over the mountains, down and back up >>>> through Salt River Canyon, and then on up and down the grades into Show >>>> Low. There I loaded a full size 3/4 ton diesel pickup and made the
    reverse trip braking and engine braking up and down some modestly steep >>>> inclines. Enough so that there were brake check areas and emergency
    runaway pullouts.

    This morning I ordered a box of each of gr-8 lock washers and nuts. The >>>> cost of which was about the same (a little less) as the couple items I >>>> bought at the Tractor Supply store in Coolidge to make repairs. Before >>>> I make another such trip I'll be replacing all the lock nuts with
    regular GR-8 nuts and high strength thread locker. As near as I can
    tell the threads on the u-bolts are fine and they do not appear to have >>>> stretched, but of course I didn't clamp them up and measure them. Two >>>> of the original nuts just failed to hold. The new nuts did spin easily >>>> into place (which surprised me).

    These are a pair of six ton axles and they were not cheap. They were
    just the closest to the correct size for the application that I could
    find.

    I've got a fair amount of faith in liquid thread locker. I've used
    Permatex, Vibratite, and of course Loc-Tite brands with good results
    over the years.

    I'm not opposed to more expensive solutions. I just don't think its
    necessary here. I did look at your link and I can see places it would >>>> be useful.

    I would submit that compared to the cost of an accident, a few Drake
    Nuts are insignificant.


    By the way, Drake Nuts were invented in the 1910s, US 1,271,449.

    And the analysis I couldn't remember was published in July 1922, and
    did compare the Drake Nut with the thin jam nut with regular nut (with
    jam nut between the big nut and whatever is being clamped). Drake
    Nuts worked regardless, but the big nut and jam nut assembly would
    shake loose. But this was before Loctite; this ought to work. The
    distorted nuts were also analyzed, and didn't win.

    Joe
    For suspension bolts I like flanged locknuts. NEVER split lock
    washers!!.

    Agree - they are useless, as are the star lock washers.


    A serated nut with attached serated washer (LoxNut) is the
    cat's ass. WhizLock nuts are a close second - particularly when
    installed with medium lock-tite.

    Google didn't find LoxNut - buried under food stuff. URL?

    WhizNut did work, and it's only for cases where the thing being
    clamped is a good bit softer than the nut. <https://www.mcmaster.com/products/whiz-nuts/>


    Fijilok nuts work very well on adjustable threaded linkage - better
    than NyLok

    Fijilok not found, buried under irrelevant stuff.


    Flanged side distortion or top distortion nuts work well too -
    particularly with medium lock-tite.

    Do distorted nuts with loctite work better than plain nuts with
    loctite?


    If you MUST use lock washers, Nord-Lock or Disk-Lock. Either one
    requires 50% more torque to remove than the install torque (torque
    stud to 100 lb/ft and it takes 150 to break it loose)


    Nord-Lock is very good. <https://www.nord-lock.com/en-us/>

    I had to look Disk-Lock up. <https://www.sherex.com/>

    It is the Nord-Lock system (whose patents must have expired by now),
    cloned and maybe improved. I would assume that it is also very good.

    But I do think that while expensive, Drake Nuts are a whole lot
    better. But this is the right conversation to be having.

    War story. A family member was towing a boat trailer, but had not
    attached the safety chains properly. If that trailer came loose,
    someone was going to die. Whereupon I put my foot down and made him
    use beefy threaded quick links.

    <https://www.mcmaster.com/products/quick-links/>

    So, I'd also consider adding some safety chains.


    Joe Gwinn

    Goose neck and straight pull trailers are required (DOT) to have safety
    chains. This one has 3/8 chains and screw couplers. The chains are kind
    of a pain and in the way in the bed of a truck on a goose neck. They
    can even knock loose the electrical plug from the receptacle if one is
    not careful. Interestingly a fifth wheel does not require safety
    chains. More interestingly a clear definition of fifth wheel varies or
    is unclear depending on where it is looked up. Even in legislative definitions. Many are written in a manner that could include goose neck hitches. Where it becomes even less clear as to what is and is not a
    "fifth wheel" is when looking up the legality of towing RV doubles from
    state to state.


    --
    Bob La Londe
    CNC Molds N Stuff


    --
    This email has been checked for viruses by AVG antivirus software.
    www.avg.com

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
    * Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)
  • From Joe Gwinn@21:1/5 to All on Sun Apr 14 15:29:01 2024
    On Sun, 14 Apr 2024 14:03:12 -0400, Leon Fisk <lfiskgr@gmail.invalid>
    wrote:

    On Sun, 14 Apr 2024 13:08:35 -0400
    Joe Gwinn <joegwinn@comcast.net> wrote:

    <snip>
    Google didn't find LoxNut - buried under food stuff. URL?

    Found this tidbit:

    An-cor-lox nut has a ring of soft metal, such as soft steel or brass at the bottom of
    the nut which turns on freely until the nut strikes the part.

    Found it: Page 74 of the following: .<chrome-extension://efaidnbmnnnibpcajpcglclefindmkaj/https://delibra.bg.polsl.pl/Content/16769/P-779_1940_3_Vol107_WU_8.pdf>
    .<https://www.google.com/search?q=%22An-cor-lox%22+lock+nuts+lsminsyed&oq=%22An-cor-lox%22+lock+nuts+lsminsyed&gs_lcrp=EgZjaHJvbWUyBggAEEUYOTIJCAEQIRgKGKABMgkIAhAhGAoYoAEyCQgDECEYChigATIJCAQQIRgKGKABMgkIBRAhGAoYoAHSAQk4Njc0ajBqMTWoAgCwAgA&sourceid=chrome&
    ie=UTF-8>

    No longer made. Company gone. Basically a soft copper washer that is
    squished into contact with the bolt thread.

    I've also run into Spiralock, which looks quite interesting.

    .<https://www.stanleyengineeredfastening.com/en/brands/Optia/Spiralock>

    Joe Gwinn

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
    * Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)
  • From Leon Fisk@21:1/5 to Joe Gwinn on Sun Apr 14 17:03:58 2024
    On Sun, 14 Apr 2024 15:29:01 -0400
    Joe Gwinn <joegwinn@comcast.net> wrote:

    <snip>
    I've also run into Spiralock, which looks quite interesting.

    .<https://www.stanleyengineeredfastening.com/en/brands/Optia/Spiralock>

    That is an interesting design.

    IMO the biggest problem these items are trying to solve is for any
    worker keeping a nut from coming loose.

    Though I worked with guys who would keep that success rate very low😬

    --
    Leon Fisk
    Grand Rapids MI

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
    * Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)
  • From Clare Snyder@21:1/5 to All on Mon Apr 15 00:12:31 2024
    On Sun, 14 Apr 2024 15:29:01 -0400, Joe Gwinn <joegwinn@comcast.net>
    wrote:

    On Sun, 14 Apr 2024 14:03:12 -0400, Leon Fisk <lfiskgr@gmail.invalid>
    wrote:

    On Sun, 14 Apr 2024 13:08:35 -0400
    Joe Gwinn <joegwinn@comcast.net> wrote:

    <snip>
    Google didn't find LoxNut - buried under food stuff. URL?

    Found this tidbit:

    An-cor-lox nut has a ring of soft metal, such as soft steel or brass at the bottom of
    the nut which turns on freely until the nut strikes the part.

    Found it: Page 74 of the following: >.<chrome-extension://efaidnbmnnnibpcajpcglclefindmkaj/https://delibra.bg.polsl.pl/Content/16769/P-779_1940_3_Vol107_WU_8.pdf>
    .<https://www.google.com/search?q=%22An-cor-lox%22+lock+nuts+lsminsyed&oq=%22An-cor-lox%22+lock+nuts+lsminsyed&gs_lcrp=EgZjaHJvbWUyBggAEEUYOTIJCAEQIRgKGKABMgkIAhAhGAoYoAEyCQgDECEYChigATIJCAQQIRgKGKABMgkIBRAhGAoYoAHSAQk4Njc0ajBqMTWoAgCwAgA&sourceid=
    chrome&ie=UTF-8>

    No longer made. Company gone. Basically a soft copper washer that is >squished into contact with the bolt thread.

    I've also run into Spiralock, which looks quite interesting.

    .<https://www.stanleyengineeredfastening.com/en/brands/Optia/Spiralock>

    Joe Gwinn
    Spiralock has gone out of fashion as they are a "single use" locknut
    if I remember correctly from my Fiat Allis days - both nut and bolt to
    be replaced at every use. Not an issue for NASA as NO bolt gets
    re-used - - - but a pain when repairing a loader/backhoe in mud up to
    your ankles- head first!!!
    Their Key-Lock thread inserts work pretty good - never had one come
    out with the bolt/stud unlike HeliCoil.

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
    * Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)
  • From Clare Snyder@21:1/5 to All on Mon Apr 15 00:03:19 2024
    On Sun, 14 Apr 2024 14:03:12 -0400, Leon Fisk <lfiskgr@gmail.invalid>
    wrote:

    On Sun, 14 Apr 2024 13:08:35 -0400
    Joe Gwinn <joegwinn@comcast.net> wrote:

    <snip>
    Google didn't find LoxNut - buried under food stuff. URL?

    Found this tidbit:

    An-cor-lox nut has a ring of soft metal, such as soft steel or brass at the bottom of
    the nut which turns on freely until the nut strikes the part.
    Different animal.
    The LoxNut has a captive free spinning serrated lock washer/flange
    similar to a NordLock washer, with the bottom of the nut serrated
    similar to the top half of a NordLock.
    The Disc-Lock lockwasher has ramps instead of the serrations of a
    NordLock. Similar action but on a different scale The Norf-Lock
    actually only claims 120% removal torque, while the disc-lock claims
    150%. The Whiz-Lock claims 130%

    The Stover works good on Grade 8 bolts although it is designed for
    High Strength L9 fasteners.

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
    * Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)
  • From Clare Snyder@21:1/5 to All on Sun Apr 14 23:42:10 2024
    On Sun, 14 Apr 2024 13:08:35 -0400, Joe Gwinn <joegwinn@comcast.net>
    wrote:

    On Sat, 13 Apr 2024 21:39:58 -0400, Clare Snyder <clare@snyder.on.ca>
    wrote:

    On Sat, 13 Apr 2024 18:16:20 -0400, Joe Gwinn <joegwinn@comcast.net>
    wrote:

    On Sat, 13 Apr 2024 11:45:50 -0700, Bob La Londe <none@none.com99>
    wrote:

    On 4/13/2024 11:25 AM, Joe Gwinn wrote:
    On Sat, 13 Apr 2024 08:05:57 -0400, "Jim Wilkins"
    <muratlanne@gmail.com> wrote:

    "Snag" wrote in message news:uvcbh7$2jb8r$1@dont-email.me...

    On 4/12/2024 5:01 PM, Joe Gwinn wrote:
    On Fri, 12 Apr 2024 13:36:58 -0700, Bob La Londe <none@none.com99> >>>>>>> wrote:


    You probably want a bronze or stainless steel Drake two-piece Lock >>>>>>> Nut:

    .<https://www.lok-mor.com/products/free-spinning/drake/>

    Joe Gwinn


    Looks a lot like a 40 dollar solution for a 2 dollar problem , Joe ... >>>>>> Snag

    ------------------------------------
    I look for reliable methods using easily available hardware or auto store
    products, such as doubled nuts. If necessary they can be modified on the >>>>>> lathe or drilled for safety wire.

    The OP was complaining that nothing he tried really worked, causing
    danger to man and beast, and not so much about the cost of the
    hardware, and Drake Nuts are the gold standard. They simply don't
    shake loose. Finger tight causes noticeable locking.

    Failing that, I'd try a thick nut and a jam nut tightened hard against >>>>> one another. And Loctite don't hurt. I recall from a study I read
    that one puts the jam nut under the thick nut for best shake
    resistance. Lok-Mor may have the study I recall, or it was an old
    NASA study.

    Joe Gwinn

    Well, I didn't actually say that.

    True, not those words, but this:

    "Somewhere on a long flat Southwest of Globe/Miami I glanced in the >>>mirror to see one of the hooks for a front strap laying on the trailer >>>deck. The strap broke where it went over the frame.  Fortunately I had >>>left the winch cable tight or I might have lost the truck."

    Losing the truck on the highway is likely to cause a accident, and
    maybe a double accident (the departing truck may go sidewise, >>>destabilizing the truck pulling or carrying everything). Free-range >>>rolling truck tires are bad enough. Bloodcurdling.

    This would have terrified me for sure.


    .... Just that two of the nuts came off
    for no good reason. I did install regular Gr-8 nuts and lock washers >>>>with red Permatex thread locker to finish my adventure. Afterwards it >>>>made the trip up up to Globe/Miami over the mountains, down and back up >>>>through Salt River Canyon, and then on up and down the grades into Show >>>>Low. There I loaded a full size 3/4 ton diesel pickup and made the >>>>reverse trip braking and engine braking up and down some modestly steep >>>>inclines. Enough so that there were brake check areas and emergency >>>>runaway pullouts.

    This morning I ordered a box of each of gr-8 lock washers and nuts. The >>>>cost of which was about the same (a little less) as the couple items I >>>>bought at the Tractor Supply store in Coolidge to make repairs. Before >>>>I make another such trip I'll be replacing all the lock nuts with >>>>regular GR-8 nuts and high strength thread locker. As near as I can >>>>tell the threads on the u-bolts are fine and they do not appear to have >>>>stretched, but of course I didn't clamp them up and measure them. Two >>>>of the original nuts just failed to hold. The new nuts did spin easily >>>>into place (which surprised me).

    These are a pair of six ton axles and they were not cheap. They were >>>>just the closest to the correct size for the application that I could >>>>find.

    I've got a fair amount of faith in liquid thread locker. I've used >>>>Permatex, Vibratite, and of course Loc-Tite brands with good results >>>>over the years.

    I'm not opposed to more expensive solutions. I just don't think its >>>>necessary here. I did look at your link and I can see places it would >>>>be useful.

    I would submit that compared to the cost of an accident, a few Drake
    Nuts are insignificant.


    By the way, Drake Nuts were invented in the 1910s, US 1,271,449.

    And the analysis I couldn't remember was published in July 1922, and
    did compare the Drake Nut with the thin jam nut with regular nut (with >>>jam nut between the big nut and whatever is being clamped). Drake
    Nuts worked regardless, but the big nut and jam nut assembly would
    shake loose. But this was before Loctite; this ought to work. The >>>distorted nuts were also analyzed, and didn't win.

    Joe
    For suspension bolts I like flanged locknuts. NEVER split lock
    washers!!.

    Agree - they are useless, as are the star lock washers.


    A serated nut with attached serated washer (LoxNut) is the
    cat's ass. WhizLock nuts are a close second - particularly when
    installed with medium lock-tite.

    Google didn't find LoxNut - buried under food stuff. URL?

    WhizNut did work, and it's only for cases where the thing being
    clamped is a good bit softer than the nut. ><https://www.mcmaster.com/products/whiz-nuts/>


    Fijilok nuts work very well on adjustable threaded linkage - better
    than NyLok

    Fijilok not found, buried under irrelevant stuff.


    Flanged side distortion or top distortion nuts work well too - >>particularly with medium lock-tite.

    Do distorted nuts with loctite work better than plain nuts with
    loctite?

    Can't beat "belt and suspenders" - but always MEDIUM thread lock - if
    I need to get out the torch to release the thread lock I mayas well
    burn the sucker off!!!

    If you MUST use lock washers, Nord-Lock or Disk-Lock. Either one
    requires 50% more torque to remove than the install torque (torque
    stud to 100 lb/ft and it takes 150 to break it loose)


    Nord-Lock is very good. <https://www.nord-lock.com/en-us/>

    I had to look Disk-Lock up. <https://www.sherex.com/>

    It is the Nord-Lock system (whose patents must have expired by now),
    cloned and maybe improved. I would assume that it is also very good.

    But I do think that while expensive, Drake Nuts are a whole lot
    better. But this is the right conversation to be having.

    Never seen a Drake before - ompressive.
    Ever run into a Key-Lok? Equivalent to hitting the top thread with an
    arc welder. That sucker is NEVER coming off - even if you want it
    to!!!

    War story. A family member was towing a boat trailer, but had not
    attached the safety chains properly. If that trailer came loose,
    someone was going to die. Whereupon I put my foot down and made him
    use beefy threaded quick links.

    <https://www.mcmaster.com/products/quick-links/>

    So, I'd also consider adding some safety chains.


    Joe Gwinn
    I had a tent trailer jump off the ball once. Had good safety chains
    crossed under the hitch but the toung jack took the abuse. It had a
    rubber tire on it and by the time I got stopped it was worn to a cone
    shape after attempting to drag the trailer off to the curb. From then
    on I always BOLTED the hitch latch - using a nylock nut. Still don't
    know how the clevis pin got out or why the latch released - I'm
    CERTAIN I latched it - - - -

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
    * Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)
  • From Clare Snyder@21:1/5 to All on Sun Apr 14 23:45:12 2024
    On Sun, 14 Apr 2024 10:48:04 -0700, Bob La Londe <none@none.com99>
    wrote:

    On 4/14/2024 10:08 AM, Joe Gwinn wrote:
    On Sat, 13 Apr 2024 21:39:58 -0400, Clare Snyder <clare@snyder.on.ca>
    wrote:

    On Sat, 13 Apr 2024 18:16:20 -0400, Joe Gwinn <joegwinn@comcast.net>
    wrote:

    On Sat, 13 Apr 2024 11:45:50 -0700, Bob La Londe <none@none.com99>
    wrote:

    On 4/13/2024 11:25 AM, Joe Gwinn wrote:
    On Sat, 13 Apr 2024 08:05:57 -0400, "Jim Wilkins"
    <muratlanne@gmail.com> wrote:

    "Snag" wrote in message news:uvcbh7$2jb8r$1@dont-email.me...

    On 4/12/2024 5:01 PM, Joe Gwinn wrote:
    On Fri, 12 Apr 2024 13:36:58 -0700, Bob La Londe <none@none.com99> >>>>>>>> wrote:


    You probably want a bronze or stainless steel Drake two-piece Lock >>>>>>>> Nut:

    .<https://www.lok-mor.com/products/free-spinning/drake/>

    Joe Gwinn


    Looks a lot like a 40 dollar solution for a 2 dollar problem , Joe ... >>>>>>> Snag

    ------------------------------------
    I look for reliable methods using easily available hardware or auto store
    products, such as doubled nuts. If necessary they can be modified on the
    lathe or drilled for safety wire.

    The OP was complaining that nothing he tried really worked, causing >>>>>> danger to man and beast, and not so much about the cost of the
    hardware, and Drake Nuts are the gold standard. They simply don't >>>>>> shake loose. Finger tight causes noticeable locking.

    Failing that, I'd try a thick nut and a jam nut tightened hard against >>>>>> one another. And Loctite don't hurt. I recall from a study I read >>>>>> that one puts the jam nut under the thick nut for best shake
    resistance. Lok-Mor may have the study I recall, or it was an old >>>>>> NASA study.

    Joe Gwinn

    Well, I didn't actually say that.

    True, not those words, but this:

    "Somewhere on a long flat Southwest of Globe/Miami I glanced in the
    mirror to see one of the hooks for a front strap laying on the trailer >>>> deck. The strap broke where it went over the frame.  Fortunately I had >>>> left the winch cable tight or I might have lost the truck."

    Losing the truck on the highway is likely to cause a accident, and
    maybe a double accident (the departing truck may go sidewise,
    destabilizing the truck pulling or carrying everything). Free-range
    rolling truck tires are bad enough. Bloodcurdling.

    This would have terrified me for sure.


    .... Just that two of the nuts came off
    for no good reason. I did install regular Gr-8 nuts and lock washers >>>>> with red Permatex thread locker to finish my adventure. Afterwards it >>>>> made the trip up up to Globe/Miami over the mountains, down and back up >>>>> through Salt River Canyon, and then on up and down the grades into Show >>>>> Low. There I loaded a full size 3/4 ton diesel pickup and made the
    reverse trip braking and engine braking up and down some modestly steep >>>>> inclines. Enough so that there were brake check areas and emergency >>>>> runaway pullouts.

    This morning I ordered a box of each of gr-8 lock washers and nuts. The >>>>> cost of which was about the same (a little less) as the couple items I >>>>> bought at the Tractor Supply store in Coolidge to make repairs. Before >>>>> I make another such trip I'll be replacing all the lock nuts with
    regular GR-8 nuts and high strength thread locker. As near as I can >>>>> tell the threads on the u-bolts are fine and they do not appear to have >>>>> stretched, but of course I didn't clamp them up and measure them. Two >>>>> of the original nuts just failed to hold. The new nuts did spin easily >>>>> into place (which surprised me).

    These are a pair of six ton axles and they were not cheap. They were >>>>> just the closest to the correct size for the application that I could >>>>> find.

    I've got a fair amount of faith in liquid thread locker. I've used
    Permatex, Vibratite, and of course Loc-Tite brands with good results >>>>> over the years.

    I'm not opposed to more expensive solutions. I just don't think its >>>>> necessary here. I did look at your link and I can see places it would >>>>> be useful.

    I would submit that compared to the cost of an accident, a few Drake
    Nuts are insignificant.


    By the way, Drake Nuts were invented in the 1910s, US 1,271,449.

    And the analysis I couldn't remember was published in July 1922, and
    did compare the Drake Nut with the thin jam nut with regular nut (with >>>> jam nut between the big nut and whatever is being clamped). Drake
    Nuts worked regardless, but the big nut and jam nut assembly would
    shake loose. But this was before Loctite; this ought to work. The
    distorted nuts were also analyzed, and didn't win.

    Joe
    For suspension bolts I like flanged locknuts. NEVER split lock
    washers!!.

    Agree - they are useless, as are the star lock washers.


    A serated nut with attached serated washer (LoxNut) is the
    cat's ass. WhizLock nuts are a close second - particularly when
    installed with medium lock-tite.

    Google didn't find LoxNut - buried under food stuff. URL?

    WhizNut did work, and it's only for cases where the thing being
    clamped is a good bit softer than the nut.
    <https://www.mcmaster.com/products/whiz-nuts/>


    Fijilok nuts work very well on adjustable threaded linkage - better
    than NyLok

    Fijilok not found, buried under irrelevant stuff.


    Flanged side distortion or top distortion nuts work well too -
    particularly with medium lock-tite.

    Do distorted nuts with loctite work better than plain nuts with
    loctite?


    If you MUST use lock washers, Nord-Lock or Disk-Lock. Either one
    requires 50% more torque to remove than the install torque (torque
    stud to 100 lb/ft and it takes 150 to break it loose)


    Nord-Lock is very good. <https://www.nord-lock.com/en-us/>

    I had to look Disk-Lock up. <https://www.sherex.com/>

    It is the Nord-Lock system (whose patents must have expired by now),
    cloned and maybe improved. I would assume that it is also very good.

    But I do think that while expensive, Drake Nuts are a whole lot
    better. But this is the right conversation to be having.

    War story. A family member was towing a boat trailer, but had not
    attached the safety chains properly. If that trailer came loose,
    someone was going to die. Whereupon I put my foot down and made him
    use beefy threaded quick links.

    <https://www.mcmaster.com/products/quick-links/>

    So, I'd also consider adding some safety chains.


    Joe Gwinn

    Goose neck and straight pull trailers are required (DOT) to have safety >chains. This one has 3/8 chains and screw couplers. The chains are kind
    of a pain and in the way in the bed of a truck on a goose neck. They
    can even knock loose the electrical plug from the receptacle if one is
    not careful. Interestingly a fifth wheel does not require safety
    chains. More interestingly a clear definition of fifth wheel varies or
    is unclear depending on where it is looked up. Even in legislative >definitions. Many are written in a manner that could include goose neck >hitches. Where it becomes even less clear as to what is and is not a
    "fifth wheel" is when looking up the legality of towing RV doubles from
    state to state.


    --
    Bob La Londe
    CNC Molds N Stuff
    Isn't the difference the attatchment? Gooseneck uses a ball. (or
    possibly a pintle) while a "fifth wheel" uses a pin and latch on a
    "horseshoe plate"

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
    * Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)
  • From Clare Snyder@21:1/5 to All on Mon Apr 15 00:20:24 2024
    On Sun, 14 Apr 2024 17:03:58 -0400, Leon Fisk <lfiskgr@gmail.invalid>
    wrote:

    On Sun, 14 Apr 2024 15:29:01 -0400
    Joe Gwinn <joegwinn@comcast.net> wrote:

    <snip>
    I've also run into Spiralock, which looks quite interesting.

    .<https://www.stanleyengineeredfastening.com/en/brands/Optia/Spiralock>

    That is an interesting design.

    IMO the biggest problem these items are trying to solve is for any
    worker keeping a nut from coming loose.

    Though I worked with guys who would keep that success rate very low?


    I worked with one guy who's method was tighten until it breaks and
    back it off 1/8th of a turn. He could snap a 1 1/2 inch grade 8 bolt.
    (with a torque multiplier and johnson bar, but still!!!) The torque
    spec was something like 3600 ft lb so he had to be putting over 4000
    ft lb to them - - - - -

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
    * Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)
  • From Joe Gwinn@21:1/5 to All on Mon Apr 15 11:26:44 2024
    On Mon, 15 Apr 2024 00:12:31 -0400, Clare Snyder <clare@snyder.on.ca>
    wrote:

    On Sun, 14 Apr 2024 15:29:01 -0400, Joe Gwinn <joegwinn@comcast.net>
    wrote:

    On Sun, 14 Apr 2024 14:03:12 -0400, Leon Fisk <lfiskgr@gmail.invalid> >>wrote:

    On Sun, 14 Apr 2024 13:08:35 -0400
    Joe Gwinn <joegwinn@comcast.net> wrote:

    <snip>
    Google didn't find LoxNut - buried under food stuff. URL?

    Found this tidbit:

    An-cor-lox nut has a ring of soft metal, such as soft steel or brass at the bottom of
    the nut which turns on freely until the nut strikes the part.

    Found it: Page 74 of the following: >>.<chrome-extension://efaidnbmnnnibpcajpcglclefindmkaj/https://delibra.bg.polsl.pl/Content/16769/P-779_1940_3_Vol107_WU_8.pdf>
    .<https://www.google.com/search?q=%22An-cor-lox%22+lock+nuts+lsminsyed&oq=%22An-cor-lox%22+lock+nuts+lsminsyed&gs_lcrp=EgZjaHJvbWUyBggAEEUYOTIJCAEQIRgKGKABMgkIAhAhGAoYoAEyCQgDECEYChigATIJCAQQIRgKGKABMgkIBRAhGAoYoAHSAQk4Njc0ajBqMTWoAgCwAgA&sourceid=
    chrome&ie=UTF-8>

    No longer made. Company gone. Basically a soft copper washer that is >>squished into contact with the bolt thread.

    I've also run into Spiralock, which looks quite interesting.

    .<https://www.stanleyengineeredfastening.com/en/brands/Optia/Spiralock>

    Joe Gwinn
    Spiralock has gone out of fashion as they are a "single use" locknut
    if I remember correctly from my Fiat Allis days - both nut and bolt to
    be replaced at every use. Not an issue for NASA as NO bolt gets
    re-used - - - but a pain when repairing a loader/backhoe in mud up to
    your ankles- head first!!!

    Good point, although the nuts are pretty cheap, so one can afford to
    just replace them. The U-straps may also need to be replaced?


    Their Key-Lock thread inserts work pretty good - never had one come
    out with the bolt/stud unlike HeliCoil.

    And you don't need to replace the thread insert after one use?

    Joe Gwinn

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
    * Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)
  • From David Billington@21:1/5 to Joe Gwinn on Mon Apr 15 17:13:07 2024
    On 15/04/2024 16:26, Joe Gwinn wrote:
    On Mon, 15 Apr 2024 00:12:31 -0400, Clare Snyder <clare@snyder.on.ca>
    wrote:

    On Sun, 14 Apr 2024 15:29:01 -0400, Joe Gwinn <joegwinn@comcast.net>
    wrote:

    On Sun, 14 Apr 2024 14:03:12 -0400, Leon Fisk <lfiskgr@gmail.invalid>
    wrote:

    On Sun, 14 Apr 2024 13:08:35 -0400
    Joe Gwinn <joegwinn@comcast.net> wrote:

    <snip>
    Google didn't find LoxNut - buried under food stuff. URL?
    Found this tidbit:

    An-cor-lox nut has a ring of soft metal, such as soft steel or brass at the bottom of
    the nut which turns on freely until the nut strikes the part.
    Found it: Page 74 of the following:
    .<chrome-extension://efaidnbmnnnibpcajpcglclefindmkaj/https://delibra.bg.polsl.pl/Content/16769/P-779_1940_3_Vol107_WU_8.pdf>
    .<https://www.google.com/search?q=%22An-cor-lox%22+lock+nuts+lsminsyed&oq=%22An-cor-lox%22+lock+nuts+lsminsyed&gs_lcrp=EgZjaHJvbWUyBggAEEUYOTIJCAEQIRgKGKABMgkIAhAhGAoYoAEyCQgDECEYChigATIJCAQQIRgKGKABMgkIBRAhGAoYoAHSAQk4Njc0ajBqMTWoAgCwAgA&sourceid=
    chrome&ie=UTF-8>

    No longer made. Company gone. Basically a soft copper washer that is
    squished into contact with the bolt thread.

    I've also run into Spiralock, which looks quite interesting.

    .<https://www.stanleyengineeredfastening.com/en/brands/Optia/Spiralock>

    Joe Gwinn
    Spiralock has gone out of fashion as they are a "single use" locknut
    if I remember correctly from my Fiat Allis days - both nut and bolt to
    be replaced at every use. Not an issue for NASA as NO bolt gets
    re-used - - - but a pain when repairing a loader/backhoe in mud up to
    your ankles- head first!!!
    Good point, although the nuts are pretty cheap, so one can afford to
    just replace them. The U-straps may also need to be replaced?
    I looked at the page and it reminded me of the Dardelet thread shown in Machinery's Handbook, the 21st edition at least which I have. I often
    wonder if Ford used that or similar on the crossflow rocker arm
    adjusters as the threads were self locking, no locknut.

    Their Key-Lock thread inserts work pretty good - never had one come
    out with the bolt/stud unlike HeliCoil.
    And you don't need to replace the thread insert after one use?

    Joe Gwinn

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
    * Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)
  • From Joe Gwinn@21:1/5 to All on Mon Apr 15 11:39:34 2024
    On Sun, 14 Apr 2024 23:42:10 -0400, Clare Snyder <clare@snyder.on.ca>
    wrote:

    On Sun, 14 Apr 2024 13:08:35 -0400, Joe Gwinn <joegwinn@comcast.net>
    wrote:

    On Sat, 13 Apr 2024 21:39:58 -0400, Clare Snyder <clare@snyder.on.ca> >>wrote:

    On Sat, 13 Apr 2024 18:16:20 -0400, Joe Gwinn <joegwinn@comcast.net> >>>wrote:

    On Sat, 13 Apr 2024 11:45:50 -0700, Bob La Londe <none@none.com99> >>>>wrote:

    On 4/13/2024 11:25 AM, Joe Gwinn wrote:
    On Sat, 13 Apr 2024 08:05:57 -0400, "Jim Wilkins"
    <muratlanne@gmail.com> wrote:

    "Snag" wrote in message news:uvcbh7$2jb8r$1@dont-email.me...

    On 4/12/2024 5:01 PM, Joe Gwinn wrote:
    On Fri, 12 Apr 2024 13:36:58 -0700, Bob La Londe <none@none.com99> >>>>>>>> wrote:


    You probably want a bronze or stainless steel Drake two-piece Lock >>>>>>>> Nut:

    .<https://www.lok-mor.com/products/free-spinning/drake/>

    Joe Gwinn


    Looks a lot like a 40 dollar solution for a 2 dollar problem , Joe ... >>>>>>> Snag

    ------------------------------------
    I look for reliable methods using easily available hardware or auto store
    products, such as doubled nuts. If necessary they can be modified on the
    lathe or drilled for safety wire.

    The OP was complaining that nothing he tried really worked, causing >>>>>> danger to man and beast, and not so much about the cost of the
    hardware, and Drake Nuts are the gold standard. They simply don't >>>>>> shake loose. Finger tight causes noticeable locking.

    Failing that, I'd try a thick nut and a jam nut tightened hard against >>>>>> one another. And Loctite don't hurt. I recall from a study I read >>>>>> that one puts the jam nut under the thick nut for best shake
    resistance. Lok-Mor may have the study I recall, or it was an old >>>>>> NASA study.

    Joe Gwinn

    Well, I didn't actually say that.

    True, not those words, but this:

    "Somewhere on a long flat Southwest of Globe/Miami I glanced in the >>>>mirror to see one of the hooks for a front strap laying on the trailer >>>>deck. The strap broke where it went over the frame.  Fortunately I had >>>>left the winch cable tight or I might have lost the truck."

    Losing the truck on the highway is likely to cause a accident, and >>>>maybe a double accident (the departing truck may go sidewise, >>>>destabilizing the truck pulling or carrying everything). Free-range >>>>rolling truck tires are bad enough. Bloodcurdling.

    This would have terrified me for sure.


    .... Just that two of the nuts came off
    for no good reason. I did install regular Gr-8 nuts and lock washers >>>>>with red Permatex thread locker to finish my adventure. Afterwards it >>>>>made the trip up up to Globe/Miami over the mountains, down and back up >>>>>through Salt River Canyon, and then on up and down the grades into Show >>>>>Low. There I loaded a full size 3/4 ton diesel pickup and made the >>>>>reverse trip braking and engine braking up and down some modestly steep >>>>>inclines. Enough so that there were brake check areas and emergency >>>>>runaway pullouts.

    This morning I ordered a box of each of gr-8 lock washers and nuts. The >>>>>cost of which was about the same (a little less) as the couple items I >>>>>bought at the Tractor Supply store in Coolidge to make repairs. Before >>>>>I make another such trip I'll be replacing all the lock nuts with >>>>>regular GR-8 nuts and high strength thread locker. As near as I can >>>>>tell the threads on the u-bolts are fine and they do not appear to have >>>>>stretched, but of course I didn't clamp them up and measure them. Two >>>>>of the original nuts just failed to hold. The new nuts did spin easily >>>>>into place (which surprised me).

    These are a pair of six ton axles and they were not cheap. They were >>>>>just the closest to the correct size for the application that I could >>>>>find.

    I've got a fair amount of faith in liquid thread locker. I've used >>>>>Permatex, Vibratite, and of course Loc-Tite brands with good results >>>>>over the years.

    I'm not opposed to more expensive solutions. I just don't think its >>>>>necessary here. I did look at your link and I can see places it would >>>>>be useful.

    I would submit that compared to the cost of an accident, a few Drake >>>>Nuts are insignificant.


    By the way, Drake Nuts were invented in the 1910s, US 1,271,449.

    And the analysis I couldn't remember was published in July 1922, and >>>>did compare the Drake Nut with the thin jam nut with regular nut (with >>>>jam nut between the big nut and whatever is being clamped). Drake
    Nuts worked regardless, but the big nut and jam nut assembly would >>>>shake loose. But this was before Loctite; this ought to work. The >>>>distorted nuts were also analyzed, and didn't win.

    Joe
    For suspension bolts I like flanged locknuts. NEVER split lock >>>washers!!.

    Agree - they are useless, as are the star lock washers.


    A serated nut with attached serated washer (LoxNut) is the
    cat's ass. WhizLock nuts are a close second - particularly when
    installed with medium lock-tite.

    Google didn't find LoxNut - buried under food stuff. URL?

    WhizNut did work, and it's only for cases where the thing being
    clamped is a good bit softer than the nut. >><https://www.mcmaster.com/products/whiz-nuts/>


    Fijilok nuts work very well on adjustable threaded linkage - better
    than NyLok

    Fijilok not found, buried under irrelevant stuff.


    Flanged side distortion or top distortion nuts work well too - >>>particularly with medium lock-tite.

    Do distorted nuts with loctite work better than plain nuts with
    loctite?

    Can't beat "belt and suspenders" - but always MEDIUM thread lock - if
    I need to get out the torch to release the thread lock I mayas well
    burn the sucker off!!!

    If you MUST use lock washers, Nord-Lock or Disk-Lock. Either one
    requires 50% more torque to remove than the install torque (torque
    stud to 100 lb/ft and it takes 150 to break it loose)


    Nord-Lock is very good. <https://www.nord-lock.com/en-us/>

    I had to look Disk-Lock up. <https://www.sherex.com/>

    It is the Nord-Lock system (whose patents must have expired by now),
    cloned and maybe improved. I would assume that it is also very good.

    But I do think that while expensive, Drake Nuts are a whole lot
    better. But this is the right conversation to be having.

    Never seen a Drake before - ompressive.
    Ever run into a Key-Lok? Equivalent to hitting the top thread with an
    arc welder. That sucker is NEVER coming off - even if you want it
    to!!!

    War story. A family member was towing a boat trailer, but had not
    attached the safety chains properly. If that trailer came loose,
    someone was going to die. Whereupon I put my foot down and made him
    use beefy threaded quick links.

    <https://www.mcmaster.com/products/quick-links/>

    So, I'd also consider adding some safety chains.


    Joe Gwinn

    I had a tent trailer jump off the ball once. Had good safety chains
    crossed under the hitch but the tounge jack took the abuse. It had a
    rubber tire on it and by the time I got stopped it was worn to a cone
    shape after attempting to drag the trailer off to the curb. From then
    on I always BOLTED the hitch latch - using a nylock nut. Still don't
    know how the clevis pin got out or why the latch released - I'm
    CERTAIN I latched it - - - -

    Heart stopping to be sure.

    I'm unclear as to what exactly came loose and then happened.

    Joe Gwinn

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
    * Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)
  • From Bob La Londe@21:1/5 to Clare Snyder on Mon Apr 15 11:16:10 2024
    On 4/14/2024 8:45 PM, Clare Snyder wrote:
    On Sun, 14 Apr 2024 10:48:04 -0700, Bob La Londe <none@none.com99>
    wrote:

    On 4/14/2024 10:08 AM, Joe Gwinn wrote:
    On Sat, 13 Apr 2024 21:39:58 -0400, Clare Snyder <clare@snyder.on.ca>
    wrote:

    On Sat, 13 Apr 2024 18:16:20 -0400, Joe Gwinn <joegwinn@comcast.net>
    wrote:

    On Sat, 13 Apr 2024 11:45:50 -0700, Bob La Londe <none@none.com99>
    wrote:

    On 4/13/2024 11:25 AM, Joe Gwinn wrote:
    On Sat, 13 Apr 2024 08:05:57 -0400, "Jim Wilkins"
    <muratlanne@gmail.com> wrote:

    "Snag" wrote in message news:uvcbh7$2jb8r$1@dont-email.me...

    On 4/12/2024 5:01 PM, Joe Gwinn wrote:
    On Fri, 12 Apr 2024 13:36:58 -0700, Bob La Londe <none@none.com99> >>>>>>>>> wrote:


    You probably want a bronze or stainless steel Drake two-piece Lock >>>>>>>>> Nut:

    .<https://www.lok-mor.com/products/free-spinning/drake/>

    Joe Gwinn


    Looks a lot like a 40 dollar solution for a 2 dollar problem , Joe ... >>>>>>>> Snag

    ------------------------------------
    I look for reliable methods using easily available hardware or auto store
    products, such as doubled nuts. If necessary they can be modified on the
    lathe or drilled for safety wire.

    The OP was complaining that nothing he tried really worked, causing >>>>>>> danger to man and beast, and not so much about the cost of the
    hardware, and Drake Nuts are the gold standard. They simply don't >>>>>>> shake loose. Finger tight causes noticeable locking.

    Failing that, I'd try a thick nut and a jam nut tightened hard against >>>>>>> one another. And Loctite don't hurt. I recall from a study I read >>>>>>> that one puts the jam nut under the thick nut for best shake
    resistance. Lok-Mor may have the study I recall, or it was an old >>>>>>> NASA study.

    Joe Gwinn

    Well, I didn't actually say that.

    True, not those words, but this:

    "Somewhere on a long flat Southwest of Globe/Miami I glanced in the
    mirror to see one of the hooks for a front strap laying on the trailer >>>>> deck. The strap broke where it went over the frame.  Fortunately I had >>>>> left the winch cable tight or I might have lost the truck."

    Losing the truck on the highway is likely to cause a accident, and
    maybe a double accident (the departing truck may go sidewise,
    destabilizing the truck pulling or carrying everything). Free-range
    rolling truck tires are bad enough. Bloodcurdling.

    This would have terrified me for sure.


    .... Just that two of the nuts came off
    for no good reason. I did install regular Gr-8 nuts and lock washers >>>>>> with red Permatex thread locker to finish my adventure. Afterwards it >>>>>> made the trip up up to Globe/Miami over the mountains, down and back up >>>>>> through Salt River Canyon, and then on up and down the grades into Show >>>>>> Low. There I loaded a full size 3/4 ton diesel pickup and made the >>>>>> reverse trip braking and engine braking up and down some modestly steep >>>>>> inclines. Enough so that there were brake check areas and emergency >>>>>> runaway pullouts.

    This morning I ordered a box of each of gr-8 lock washers and nuts. The >>>>>> cost of which was about the same (a little less) as the couple items I >>>>>> bought at the Tractor Supply store in Coolidge to make repairs. Before >>>>>> I make another such trip I'll be replacing all the lock nuts with
    regular GR-8 nuts and high strength thread locker. As near as I can >>>>>> tell the threads on the u-bolts are fine and they do not appear to have >>>>>> stretched, but of course I didn't clamp them up and measure them. Two >>>>>> of the original nuts just failed to hold. The new nuts did spin easily >>>>>> into place (which surprised me).

    These are a pair of six ton axles and they were not cheap. They were >>>>>> just the closest to the correct size for the application that I could >>>>>> find.

    I've got a fair amount of faith in liquid thread locker. I've used >>>>>> Permatex, Vibratite, and of course Loc-Tite brands with good results >>>>>> over the years.

    I'm not opposed to more expensive solutions. I just don't think its >>>>>> necessary here. I did look at your link and I can see places it would >>>>>> be useful.

    I would submit that compared to the cost of an accident, a few Drake >>>>> Nuts are insignificant.


    By the way, Drake Nuts were invented in the 1910s, US 1,271,449.

    And the analysis I couldn't remember was published in July 1922, and >>>>> did compare the Drake Nut with the thin jam nut with regular nut (with >>>>> jam nut between the big nut and whatever is being clamped). Drake
    Nuts worked regardless, but the big nut and jam nut assembly would
    shake loose. But this was before Loctite; this ought to work. The
    distorted nuts were also analyzed, and didn't win.

    Joe
    For suspension bolts I like flanged locknuts. NEVER split lock
    washers!!.

    Agree - they are useless, as are the star lock washers.


    A serated nut with attached serated washer (LoxNut) is the
    cat's ass. WhizLock nuts are a close second - particularly when
    installed with medium lock-tite.

    Google didn't find LoxNut - buried under food stuff. URL?

    WhizNut did work, and it's only for cases where the thing being
    clamped is a good bit softer than the nut.
    <https://www.mcmaster.com/products/whiz-nuts/>


    Fijilok nuts work very well on adjustable threaded linkage - better
    than NyLok

    Fijilok not found, buried under irrelevant stuff.


    Flanged side distortion or top distortion nuts work well too -
    particularly with medium lock-tite.

    Do distorted nuts with loctite work better than plain nuts with
    loctite?


    If you MUST use lock washers, Nord-Lock or Disk-Lock. Either one
    requires 50% more torque to remove than the install torque (torque
    stud to 100 lb/ft and it takes 150 to break it loose)


    Nord-Lock is very good. <https://www.nord-lock.com/en-us/>

    I had to look Disk-Lock up. <https://www.sherex.com/>

    It is the Nord-Lock system (whose patents must have expired by now),
    cloned and maybe improved. I would assume that it is also very good.

    But I do think that while expensive, Drake Nuts are a whole lot
    better. But this is the right conversation to be having.

    War story. A family member was towing a boat trailer, but had not
    attached the safety chains properly. If that trailer came loose,
    someone was going to die. Whereupon I put my foot down and made him
    use beefy threaded quick links.

    <https://www.mcmaster.com/products/quick-links/>

    So, I'd also consider adding some safety chains.


    Joe Gwinn

    Goose neck and straight pull trailers are required (DOT) to have safety
    chains. This one has 3/8 chains and screw couplers. The chains are kind
    of a pain and in the way in the bed of a truck on a goose neck. They
    can even knock loose the electrical plug from the receptacle if one is
    not careful. Interestingly a fifth wheel does not require safety
    chains. More interestingly a clear definition of fifth wheel varies or
    is unclear depending on where it is looked up. Even in legislative
    definitions. Many are written in a manner that could include goose neck
    hitches. Where it becomes even less clear as to what is and is not a
    "fifth wheel" is when looking up the legality of towing RV doubles from
    state to state.


    --
    Bob La Londe
    CNC Molds N Stuff

    Isn't the difference the attatchment? Gooseneck uses a ball. (or
    possibly a pintle) while a "fifth wheel" uses a pin and latch on a
    "horseshoe plate"

    That is the practical definition and perhaps the "dictionary"
    definition, but in the real world you have to deal with the legal
    definition. Remember the law says a tomato is a vegetable even though taxonomically its a fruit,

    --
    Bob La Londe
    CNC Molds N Stuff


    --
    This email has been checked for viruses by AVG antivirus software.
    www.avg.com

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
    * Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)
  • From Joe Gwinn@21:1/5 to All on Mon Apr 15 16:30:25 2024
    On Mon, 15 Apr 2024 17:13:07 +0100, David Billington <djb@invalid.com>
    wrote:

    On 15/04/2024 16:26, Joe Gwinn wrote:
    On Mon, 15 Apr 2024 00:12:31 -0400, Clare Snyder <clare@snyder.on.ca>
    wrote:

    On Sun, 14 Apr 2024 15:29:01 -0400, Joe Gwinn <joegwinn@comcast.net>
    wrote:

    On Sun, 14 Apr 2024 14:03:12 -0400, Leon Fisk <lfiskgr@gmail.invalid>
    wrote:

    On Sun, 14 Apr 2024 13:08:35 -0400
    Joe Gwinn <joegwinn@comcast.net> wrote:

    <snip>
    Google didn't find LoxNut - buried under food stuff. URL?
    Found this tidbit:

    An-cor-lox nut has a ring of soft metal, such as soft steel or brass at the bottom of
    the nut which turns on freely until the nut strikes the part.
    Found it: Page 74 of the following:
    .<chrome-extension://efaidnbmnnnibpcajpcglclefindmkaj/https://delibra.bg.polsl.pl/Content/16769/P-779_1940_3_Vol107_WU_8.pdf>
    .<https://www.google.com/search?q=%22An-cor-lox%22+lock+nuts+lsminsyed&oq=%22An-cor-lox%22+lock+nuts+lsminsyed&gs_lcrp=EgZjaHJvbWUyBggAEEUYOTIJCAEQIRgKGKABMgkIAhAhGAoYoAEyCQgDECEYChigATIJCAQQIRgKGKABMgkIBRAhGAoYoAHSAQk4Njc0ajBqMTWoAgCwAgA&sourceid=
    chrome&ie=UTF-8>

    No longer made. Company gone. Basically a soft copper washer that is >>>> squished into contact with the bolt thread.

    I've also run into Spiralock, which looks quite interesting.

    .<https://www.stanleyengineeredfastening.com/en/brands/Optia/Spiralock> >>>>
    Joe Gwinn
    Spiralock has gone out of fashion as they are a "single use" locknut
    if I remember correctly from my Fiat Allis days - both nut and bolt to
    be replaced at every use. Not an issue for NASA as NO bolt gets
    re-used - - - but a pain when repairing a loader/backhoe in mud up to
    your ankles- head first!!!
    Good point, although the nuts are pretty cheap, so one can afford to
    just replace them. The U-straps may also need to be replaced?

    I looked at the page and it reminded me of the Dardelet thread shown in >Machinery's Handbook, the 21st edition at least which I have. I often
    wonder if Ford used that or similar on the crossflow rocker arm
    adjusters as the threads were self locking, no locknut.

    I had not heard of the Dardelet thread, but it is the same idea as
    Spiralock. Not made any more, it seems.

    Dardelet's US patents are US 2,091,788 and US 1,657,244.


    I ran into yet another locknut contender:

    Security Locknut, which originated in the railroad industry a century
    ago, for use on such things are the assemblies that get the full
    steel-on-steel impact loads. In this case, "security" means against
    vibration, not thievery. There is just one supplier, but they are not
    terribly expensive.

    .<https://www.securitylocknut.com/>

    The relevant patents are US 1,166,203 and US 1,400,154.

    .<https://www.securitylocknut.com/post/how-does-the-security-locknut-work>

    Joe Gwinn

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
    * Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)
  • From Clare Snyder@21:1/5 to All on Mon Apr 15 20:06:36 2024
    On Mon, 15 Apr 2024 11:26:44 -0400, Joe Gwinn <joegwinn@comcast.net>
    wrote:

    On Mon, 15 Apr 2024 00:12:31 -0400, Clare Snyder <clare@snyder.on.ca>
    wrote:

    On Sun, 14 Apr 2024 15:29:01 -0400, Joe Gwinn <joegwinn@comcast.net>
    wrote:

    On Sun, 14 Apr 2024 14:03:12 -0400, Leon Fisk <lfiskgr@gmail.invalid> >>>wrote:

    On Sun, 14 Apr 2024 13:08:35 -0400
    Joe Gwinn <joegwinn@comcast.net> wrote:

    <snip>
    Google didn't find LoxNut - buried under food stuff. URL?

    Found this tidbit:

    An-cor-lox nut has a ring of soft metal, such as soft steel or brass at the bottom of
    the nut which turns on freely until the nut strikes the part.

    Found it: Page 74 of the following: >>>.<chrome-extension://efaidnbmnnnibpcajpcglclefindmkaj/https://delibra.bg.polsl.pl/Content/16769/P-779_1940_3_Vol107_WU_8.pdf>
    .<https://www.google.com/search?q=%22An-cor-lox%22+lock+nuts+lsminsyed&oq=%22An-cor-lox%22+lock+nuts+lsminsyed&gs_lcrp=EgZjaHJvbWUyBggAEEUYOTIJCAEQIRgKGKABMgkIAhAhGAoYoAEyCQgDECEYChigATIJCAQQIRgKGKABMgkIBRAhGAoYoAHSAQk4Njc0ajBqMTWoAgCwAgA&sourceid=
    chrome&ie=UTF-8>

    No longer made. Company gone. Basically a soft copper washer that is >>>squished into contact with the bolt thread.

    I've also run into Spiralock, which looks quite interesting.

    .<https://www.stanleyengineeredfastening.com/en/brands/Optia/Spiralock>

    Joe Gwinn
    Spiralock has gone out of fashion as they are a "single use" locknut
    if I remember correctly from my Fiat Allis days - both nut and bolt to
    be replaced at every use. Not an issue for NASA as NO bolt gets
    re-used - - - but a pain when repairing a loader/backhoe in mud up to
    your ankles- head first!!!

    Good point, although the nuts are pretty cheap, so one can afford to
    just replace them. The U-straps may also need to be replaced?


    Their Key-Lock thread inserts work pretty good - never had one come
    out with the bolt/stud unlike HeliCoil.

    And you don't need to replace the thread insert after one use?

    Joe Gwinn
    They have a bit of give to them - which might help - but generally
    you don't count on a thread insert to be a lock-nut - although they
    are advertized and sold as .

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
    * Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)
  • From Clare Snyder@21:1/5 to All on Mon Apr 15 20:12:01 2024
    On Mon, 15 Apr 2024 11:39:34 -0400, Joe Gwinn <joegwinn@comcast.net>
    wrote:

    On Sun, 14 Apr 2024 23:42:10 -0400, Clare Snyder <clare@snyder.on.ca>
    wrote:

    On Sun, 14 Apr 2024 13:08:35 -0400, Joe Gwinn <joegwinn@comcast.net>
    wrote:

    On Sat, 13 Apr 2024 21:39:58 -0400, Clare Snyder <clare@snyder.on.ca> >>>wrote:

    On Sat, 13 Apr 2024 18:16:20 -0400, Joe Gwinn <joegwinn@comcast.net> >>>>wrote:

    On Sat, 13 Apr 2024 11:45:50 -0700, Bob La Londe <none@none.com99> >>>>>wrote:

    On 4/13/2024 11:25 AM, Joe Gwinn wrote:
    On Sat, 13 Apr 2024 08:05:57 -0400, "Jim Wilkins"
    <muratlanne@gmail.com> wrote:

    "Snag" wrote in message news:uvcbh7$2jb8r$1@dont-email.me...

    On 4/12/2024 5:01 PM, Joe Gwinn wrote:
    On Fri, 12 Apr 2024 13:36:58 -0700, Bob La Londe <none@none.com99> >>>>>>>>> wrote:


    You probably want a bronze or stainless steel Drake two-piece Lock >>>>>>>>> Nut:

    .<https://www.lok-mor.com/products/free-spinning/drake/>

    Joe Gwinn


    Looks a lot like a 40 dollar solution for a 2 dollar problem , Joe ... >>>>>>>> Snag

    ------------------------------------
    I look for reliable methods using easily available hardware or auto store
    products, such as doubled nuts. If necessary they can be modified on the
    lathe or drilled for safety wire.

    The OP was complaining that nothing he tried really worked, causing >>>>>>> danger to man and beast, and not so much about the cost of the
    hardware, and Drake Nuts are the gold standard. They simply don't >>>>>>> shake loose. Finger tight causes noticeable locking.

    Failing that, I'd try a thick nut and a jam nut tightened hard against >>>>>>> one another. And Loctite don't hurt. I recall from a study I read >>>>>>> that one puts the jam nut under the thick nut for best shake
    resistance. Lok-Mor may have the study I recall, or it was an old >>>>>>> NASA study.

    Joe Gwinn

    Well, I didn't actually say that.

    True, not those words, but this:

    "Somewhere on a long flat Southwest of Globe/Miami I glanced in the >>>>>mirror to see one of the hooks for a front strap laying on the trailer >>>>>deck. The strap broke where it went over the frame.  Fortunately I had >>>>>left the winch cable tight or I might have lost the truck."

    Losing the truck on the highway is likely to cause a accident, and >>>>>maybe a double accident (the departing truck may go sidewise, >>>>>destabilizing the truck pulling or carrying everything). Free-range >>>>>rolling truck tires are bad enough. Bloodcurdling.

    This would have terrified me for sure.


    .... Just that two of the nuts came off
    for no good reason. I did install regular Gr-8 nuts and lock washers >>>>>>with red Permatex thread locker to finish my adventure. Afterwards it >>>>>>made the trip up up to Globe/Miami over the mountains, down and back up >>>>>>through Salt River Canyon, and then on up and down the grades into Show >>>>>>Low. There I loaded a full size 3/4 ton diesel pickup and made the >>>>>>reverse trip braking and engine braking up and down some modestly steep >>>>>>inclines. Enough so that there were brake check areas and emergency >>>>>>runaway pullouts.

    This morning I ordered a box of each of gr-8 lock washers and nuts. The >>>>>>cost of which was about the same (a little less) as the couple items I >>>>>>bought at the Tractor Supply store in Coolidge to make repairs. Before >>>>>>I make another such trip I'll be replacing all the lock nuts with >>>>>>regular GR-8 nuts and high strength thread locker. As near as I can >>>>>>tell the threads on the u-bolts are fine and they do not appear to have >>>>>>stretched, but of course I didn't clamp them up and measure them. Two >>>>>>of the original nuts just failed to hold. The new nuts did spin easily >>>>>>into place (which surprised me).

    These are a pair of six ton axles and they were not cheap. They were >>>>>>just the closest to the correct size for the application that I could >>>>>>find.

    I've got a fair amount of faith in liquid thread locker. I've used >>>>>>Permatex, Vibratite, and of course Loc-Tite brands with good results >>>>>>over the years.

    I'm not opposed to more expensive solutions. I just don't think its >>>>>>necessary here. I did look at your link and I can see places it would >>>>>>be useful.

    I would submit that compared to the cost of an accident, a few Drake >>>>>Nuts are insignificant.


    By the way, Drake Nuts were invented in the 1910s, US 1,271,449.

    And the analysis I couldn't remember was published in July 1922, and >>>>>did compare the Drake Nut with the thin jam nut with regular nut (with >>>>>jam nut between the big nut and whatever is being clamped). Drake >>>>>Nuts worked regardless, but the big nut and jam nut assembly would >>>>>shake loose. But this was before Loctite; this ought to work. The >>>>>distorted nuts were also analyzed, and didn't win.

    Joe
    For suspension bolts I like flanged locknuts. NEVER split lock >>>>washers!!.

    Agree - they are useless, as are the star lock washers.


    A serated nut with attached serated washer (LoxNut) is the
    cat's ass. WhizLock nuts are a close second - particularly when >>>>installed with medium lock-tite.

    Google didn't find LoxNut - buried under food stuff. URL?

    WhizNut did work, and it's only for cases where the thing being
    clamped is a good bit softer than the nut. >>><https://www.mcmaster.com/products/whiz-nuts/>


    Fijilok nuts work very well on adjustable threaded linkage - better >>>>than NyLok

    Fijilok not found, buried under irrelevant stuff.


    Flanged side distortion or top distortion nuts work well too - >>>>particularly with medium lock-tite.

    Do distorted nuts with loctite work better than plain nuts with
    loctite?

    Can't beat "belt and suspenders" - but always MEDIUM thread lock - if
    I need to get out the torch to release the thread lock I mayas well
    burn the sucker off!!!

    If you MUST use lock washers, Nord-Lock or Disk-Lock. Either one >>>>requires 50% more torque to remove than the install torque (torque
    stud to 100 lb/ft and it takes 150 to break it loose)


    Nord-Lock is very good. <https://www.nord-lock.com/en-us/>

    I had to look Disk-Lock up. <https://www.sherex.com/>

    It is the Nord-Lock system (whose patents must have expired by now), >>>cloned and maybe improved. I would assume that it is also very good.

    But I do think that while expensive, Drake Nuts are a whole lot
    better. But this is the right conversation to be having.

    Never seen a Drake before - ompressive.
    Ever run into a Key-Lok? Equivalent to hitting the top thread with an
    arc welder. That sucker is NEVER coming off - even if you want it
    to!!!

    War story. A family member was towing a boat trailer, but had not >>>attached the safety chains properly. If that trailer came loose,
    someone was going to die. Whereupon I put my foot down and made him
    use beefy threaded quick links.

    <https://www.mcmaster.com/products/quick-links/>

    So, I'd also consider adding some safety chains.


    Joe Gwinn

    I had a tent trailer jump off the ball once. Had good safety chains >>crossed under the hitch but the tounge jack took the abuse. It had a
    rubber tire on it and by the time I got stopped it was worn to a cone
    shape after attempting to drag the trailer off to the curb. From then
    on I always BOLTED the hitch latch - using a nylock nut. Still don't
    know how the clevis pin got out or why the latch released - I'm
    CERTAIN I latched it - - - -

    Heart stopping to be sure.

    I'm unclear as to what exactly came loose and then happened.

    Joe Gwinn
    The hitch unlatched from the ball. For that to happen the dafety had
    to release - and it was SUPPOSED to be secured with a latch-pin. When
    it jumped off the ball it was suspended on the crossed safety chains
    but the toung jack wheel, which was pointing slightly to the right,
    touched the ground and tried to stear the trailer to the curb and the
    pavement acted like a grinder and "machined" the tire into a cone.
    After that I ALWAYS double check the hitch and make sure everything
    is secured before starting out - and at every stop.

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
    * Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)
  • From Clare Snyder@21:1/5 to All on Mon Apr 15 20:16:53 2024
    On Mon, 15 Apr 2024 16:30:25 -0400, Joe Gwinn <joegwinn@comcast.net>
    wrote:

    On Mon, 15 Apr 2024 17:13:07 +0100, David Billington <djb@invalid.com>
    wrote:

    On 15/04/2024 16:26, Joe Gwinn wrote:
    On Mon, 15 Apr 2024 00:12:31 -0400, Clare Snyder <clare@snyder.on.ca>
    wrote:

    On Sun, 14 Apr 2024 15:29:01 -0400, Joe Gwinn <joegwinn@comcast.net>
    wrote:

    On Sun, 14 Apr 2024 14:03:12 -0400, Leon Fisk <lfiskgr@gmail.invalid> >>>>> wrote:

    On Sun, 14 Apr 2024 13:08:35 -0400
    Joe Gwinn <joegwinn@comcast.net> wrote:

    <snip>
    Google didn't find LoxNut - buried under food stuff. URL?
    Found this tidbit:

    An-cor-lox nut has a ring of soft metal, such as soft steel or brass at the bottom of
    the nut which turns on freely until the nut strikes the part.
    Found it: Page 74 of the following:
    .<chrome-extension://efaidnbmnnnibpcajpcglclefindmkaj/https://delibra.bg.polsl.pl/Content/16769/P-779_1940_3_Vol107_WU_8.pdf>
    .<https://www.google.com/search?q=%22An-cor-lox%22+lock+nuts+lsminsyed&oq=%22An-cor-lox%22+lock+nuts+lsminsyed&gs_lcrp=EgZjaHJvbWUyBggAEEUYOTIJCAEQIRgKGKABMgkIAhAhGAoYoAEyCQgDECEYChigATIJCAQQIRgKGKABMgkIBRAhGAoYoAHSAQk4Njc0ajBqMTWoAgCwAgA&sourceid=
    chrome&ie=UTF-8>

    No longer made. Company gone. Basically a soft copper washer that is >>>>> squished into contact with the bolt thread.

    I've also run into Spiralock, which looks quite interesting.

    .<https://www.stanleyengineeredfastening.com/en/brands/Optia/Spiralock> >>>>>
    Joe Gwinn
    Spiralock has gone out of fashion as they are a "single use" locknut
    if I remember correctly from my Fiat Allis days - both nut and bolt to >>>> be replaced at every use. Not an issue for NASA as NO bolt gets
    re-used - - - but a pain when repairing a loader/backhoe in mud up to
    your ankles- head first!!!
    Good point, although the nuts are pretty cheap, so one can afford to
    just replace them. The U-straps may also need to be replaced?

    I looked at the page and it reminded me of the Dardelet thread shown in >>Machinery's Handbook, the 21st edition at least which I have. I often >>wonder if Ford used that or similar on the crossflow rocker arm
    adjusters as the threads were self locking, no locknut.

    I had not heard of the Dardelet thread, but it is the same idea as
    Spiralock. Not made any more, it seems.

    Dardelet's US patents are US 2,091,788 and US 1,657,244.


    I ran into yet another locknut contender:

    Security Locknut, which originated in the railroad industry a century
    ago, for use on such things are the assemblies that get the full >steel-on-steel impact loads. In this case, "security" means against >vibration, not thievery. There is just one supplier, but they are not >terribly expensive.

    .<https://www.securitylocknut.com/>

    The relevant patents are US 1,166,203 and US 1,400,154.

    .<https://www.securitylocknut.com/post/how-does-the-security-locknut-work>

    Joe Gwinn
    Looks like a similar action as the FujiLok

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
    * Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)
  • From Joe Gwinn@21:1/5 to All on Tue Apr 16 10:38:25 2024
    On Mon, 15 Apr 2024 20:16:53 -0400, Clare Snyder <clare@snyder.on.ca>
    wrote:

    On Mon, 15 Apr 2024 16:30:25 -0400, Joe Gwinn <joegwinn@comcast.net>
    wrote:

    On Mon, 15 Apr 2024 17:13:07 +0100, David Billington <djb@invalid.com> >>wrote:

    On 15/04/2024 16:26, Joe Gwinn wrote:
    On Mon, 15 Apr 2024 00:12:31 -0400, Clare Snyder <clare@snyder.on.ca>
    wrote:

    On Sun, 14 Apr 2024 15:29:01 -0400, Joe Gwinn <joegwinn@comcast.net> >>>>> wrote:

    On Sun, 14 Apr 2024 14:03:12 -0400, Leon Fisk <lfiskgr@gmail.invalid> >>>>>> wrote:

    On Sun, 14 Apr 2024 13:08:35 -0400
    Joe Gwinn <joegwinn@comcast.net> wrote:

    <snip>
    Google didn't find LoxNut - buried under food stuff. URL?
    Found this tidbit:

    An-cor-lox nut has a ring of soft metal, such as soft steel or brass at the bottom of
    the nut which turns on freely until the nut strikes the part.
    Found it: Page 74 of the following:
    .<chrome-extension://efaidnbmnnnibpcajpcglclefindmkaj/https://delibra.bg.polsl.pl/Content/16769/P-779_1940_3_Vol107_WU_8.pdf>
    .<https://www.google.com/search?q=%22An-cor-lox%22+lock+nuts+lsminsyed&oq=%22An-cor-lox%22+lock+nuts+lsminsyed&gs_lcrp=EgZjaHJvbWUyBggAEEUYOTIJCAEQIRgKGKABMgkIAhAhGAoYoAEyCQgDECEYChigATIJCAQQIRgKGKABMgkIBRAhGAoYoAHSAQk4Njc0ajBqMTWoAgCwAgA&sourceid=
    chrome&ie=UTF-8>

    No longer made. Company gone. Basically a soft copper washer that is >>>>>> squished into contact with the bolt thread.

    I've also run into Spiralock, which looks quite interesting.

    .<https://www.stanleyengineeredfastening.com/en/brands/Optia/Spiralock> >>>>>>
    Joe Gwinn
    Spiralock has gone out of fashion as they are a "single use" locknut >>>>> if I remember correctly from my Fiat Allis days - both nut and bolt to >>>>> be replaced at every use. Not an issue for NASA as NO bolt gets
    re-used - - - but a pain when repairing a loader/backhoe in mud up to >>>>> your ankles- head first!!!
    Good point, although the nuts are pretty cheap, so one can afford to
    just replace them. The U-straps may also need to be replaced?

    I looked at the page and it reminded me of the Dardelet thread shown in >>>Machinery's Handbook, the 21st edition at least which I have. I often >>>wonder if Ford used that or similar on the crossflow rocker arm
    adjusters as the threads were self locking, no locknut.

    I had not heard of the Dardelet thread, but it is the same idea as >>Spiralock. Not made any more, it seems.

    Dardelet's US patents are US 2,091,788 and US 1,657,244.


    I ran into yet another locknut contender:

    Security Locknut, which originated in the railroad industry a century
    ago, for use on such things are the assemblies that get the full >>steel-on-steel impact loads. In this case, "security" means against >>vibration, not thievery. There is just one supplier, but they are not >>terribly expensive.

    .<https://www.securitylocknut.com/>

    The relevant patents are US 1,166,203 and US 1,400,154.

    .<https://www.securitylocknut.com/post/how-does-the-security-locknut-work>

    By the way, McMaster carries these. .<https://www.mcmaster.com/products/nuts/locking-type~steel-insert/>


    Joe Gwinn
    Looks like a similar action as the FujiLok

    Do you have any more information or URLs for FujiLok? Google didn't
    help because I didn't know enough to pull this out of the irrelevant
    hits.

    Joe Gwinn

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
    * Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)
  • From Joe Gwinn@21:1/5 to All on Tue Apr 16 10:31:13 2024
    On Mon, 15 Apr 2024 20:12:01 -0400, Clare Snyder <clare@snyder.on.ca>
    wrote:

    On Mon, 15 Apr 2024 11:39:34 -0400, Joe Gwinn <joegwinn@comcast.net>
    wrote:

    On Sun, 14 Apr 2024 23:42:10 -0400, Clare Snyder <clare@snyder.on.ca> >>wrote:

    On Sun, 14 Apr 2024 13:08:35 -0400, Joe Gwinn <joegwinn@comcast.net> >>>wrote:

    [snip]
    [CS]
    I had a tent trailer jump off the ball once. Had good safety chains >>>crossed under the hitch but the tounge jack took the abuse. It had a >>>rubber tire on it and by the time I got stopped it was worn to a cone >>>shape after attempting to drag the trailer off to the curb. From then
    on I always BOLTED the hitch latch - using a nylock nut. Still don't
    know how the clevis pin got out or why the latch released - I'm
    CERTAIN I latched it - - - -

    Heart stopping to be sure.

    I'm unclear as to what exactly came loose and then happened.

    Joe Gwinn
    The hitch unlatched from the ball. For that to happen the safety had
    to release - and it was SUPPOSED to be secured with a latch-pin. When
    it jumped off the ball it was suspended on the crossed safety chains
    but the tounge jack wheel, which was pointing slightly to the right,
    touched the ground and tried to steer the trailer to the curb and the >pavement acted like a grinder and "machined" the tire into a cone.
    After that I ALWAYS double check the hitch and make sure everything
    is secured before starting out - and at every stop.

    Ahh. That makes sense. This story is one of the standard arguments
    for the pintle hitch over any ball hitch.

    Joe Gwinn

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
    * Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)
  • From Joe Gwinn@21:1/5 to All on Tue Apr 16 10:41:14 2024
    On Mon, 15 Apr 2024 20:06:36 -0400, Clare Snyder <clare@snyder.on.ca>
    wrote:

    On Mon, 15 Apr 2024 11:26:44 -0400, Joe Gwinn <joegwinn@comcast.net>
    wrote:

    On Mon, 15 Apr 2024 00:12:31 -0400, Clare Snyder <clare@snyder.on.ca> >>wrote:

    On Sun, 14 Apr 2024 15:29:01 -0400, Joe Gwinn <joegwinn@comcast.net> >>>wrote:

    On Sun, 14 Apr 2024 14:03:12 -0400, Leon Fisk <lfiskgr@gmail.invalid> >>>>wrote:

    On Sun, 14 Apr 2024 13:08:35 -0400
    Joe Gwinn <joegwinn@comcast.net> wrote:

    <snip>
    Google didn't find LoxNut - buried under food stuff. URL?

    Found this tidbit:

    An-cor-lox nut has a ring of soft metal, such as soft steel or brass at the bottom of
    the nut which turns on freely until the nut strikes the part.

    Found it: Page 74 of the following: >>>>.<chrome-extension://efaidnbmnnnibpcajpcglclefindmkaj/https://delibra.bg.polsl.pl/Content/16769/P-779_1940_3_Vol107_WU_8.pdf>
    .<https://www.google.com/search?q=%22An-cor-lox%22+lock+nuts+lsminsyed&oq=%22An-cor-lox%22+lock+nuts+lsminsyed&gs_lcrp=EgZjaHJvbWUyBggAEEUYOTIJCAEQIRgKGKABMgkIAhAhGAoYoAEyCQgDECEYChigATIJCAQQIRgKGKABMgkIBRAhGAoYoAHSAQk4Njc0ajBqMTWoAgCwAgA&sourceid=
    chrome&ie=UTF-8>

    No longer made. Company gone. Basically a soft copper washer that is >>>>squished into contact with the bolt thread.

    I've also run into Spiralock, which looks quite interesting.
    .<https://www.stanleyengineeredfastening.com/en/brands/Optia/Spiralock> >>>>
    Joe Gwinn
    Spiralock has gone out of fashion as they are a "single use" locknut
    if I remember correctly from my Fiat Allis days - both nut and bolt to
    be replaced at every use. Not an issue for NASA as NO bolt gets
    re-used - - - but a pain when repairing a loader/backhoe in mud up to >>>your ankles- head first!!!

    Good point, although the nuts are pretty cheap, so one can afford to
    just replace them. The U-straps may also need to be replaced?


    Their Key-Lock thread inserts work pretty good - never had one come
    out with the bolt/stud unlike HeliCoil.

    And you don't need to replace the thread insert after one use?

    Joe Gwinn

    They have a bit of give to them - which might help - but generally
    you don't count on a thread insert to be a lock-nut - although they
    are advertized and sold as such.

    In their defense, they prove Key-Lock's vibration resistance with a
    Junker test, which is the gold standard. And NASA will accept no
    less.

    Joe Gwinn

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
    * Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)
  • From Joe Gwinn@21:1/5 to All on Tue Apr 16 12:19:31 2024
    On Tue, 16 Apr 2024 10:38:25 -0400, Joe Gwinn <joegwinn@comcast.net>
    wrote:

    On Mon, 15 Apr 2024 20:16:53 -0400, Clare Snyder <clare@snyder.on.ca>
    wrote:

    On Mon, 15 Apr 2024 16:30:25 -0400, Joe Gwinn <joegwinn@comcast.net>
    wrote:

    On Mon, 15 Apr 2024 17:13:07 +0100, David Billington <djb@invalid.com> >>>wrote:

    On 15/04/2024 16:26, Joe Gwinn wrote:
    On Mon, 15 Apr 2024 00:12:31 -0400, Clare Snyder <clare@snyder.on.ca> >>>>> wrote:

    On Sun, 14 Apr 2024 15:29:01 -0400, Joe Gwinn <joegwinn@comcast.net> >>>>>> wrote:

    On Sun, 14 Apr 2024 14:03:12 -0400, Leon Fisk <lfiskgr@gmail.invalid> >>>>>>> wrote:

    On Sun, 14 Apr 2024 13:08:35 -0400
    Joe Gwinn <joegwinn@comcast.net> wrote:

    <snip>
    Google didn't find LoxNut - buried under food stuff. URL?
    Found this tidbit:

    An-cor-lox nut has a ring of soft metal, such as soft steel or brass at the bottom of
    the nut which turns on freely until the nut strikes the part.
    Found it: Page 74 of the following:
    .<chrome-extension://efaidnbmnnnibpcajpcglclefindmkaj/https://delibra.bg.polsl.pl/Content/16769/P-779_1940_3_Vol107_WU_8.pdf>
    .<https://www.google.com/search?q=%22An-cor-lox%22+lock+nuts+lsminsyed&oq=%22An-cor-lox%22+lock+nuts+lsminsyed&gs_lcrp=EgZjaHJvbWUyBggAEEUYOTIJCAEQIRgKGKABMgkIAhAhGAoYoAEyCQgDECEYChigATIJCAQQIRgKGKABMgkIBRAhGAoYoAHSAQk4Njc0ajBqMTWoAgCwAgA&
    sourceid=chrome&ie=UTF-8>

    No longer made. Company gone. Basically a soft copper washer that is >>>>>>> squished into contact with the bolt thread.

    I've also run into Spiralock, which looks quite interesting.

    .<https://www.stanleyengineeredfastening.com/en/brands/Optia/Spiralock> >>>>>>>
    Joe Gwinn
    Spiralock has gone out of fashion as they are a "single use" locknut >>>>>> if I remember correctly from my Fiat Allis days - both nut and bolt to >>>>>> be replaced at every use. Not an issue for NASA as NO bolt gets
    re-used - - - but a pain when repairing a loader/backhoe in mud up to >>>>>> your ankles- head first!!!
    Good point, although the nuts are pretty cheap, so one can afford to >>>>> just replace them. The U-straps may also need to be replaced?

    I looked at the page and it reminded me of the Dardelet thread shown in >>>>Machinery's Handbook, the 21st edition at least which I have. I often >>>>wonder if Ford used that or similar on the crossflow rocker arm >>>>adjusters as the threads were self locking, no locknut.

    I had not heard of the Dardelet thread, but it is the same idea as >>>Spiralock. Not made any more, it seems.

    Dardelet's US patents are US 2,091,788 and US 1,657,244.


    I ran into yet another locknut contender:

    Security Locknut, which originated in the railroad industry a century >>>ago, for use on such things are the assemblies that get the full >>>steel-on-steel impact loads. In this case, "security" means against >>>vibration, not thievery. There is just one supplier, but they are not >>>terribly expensive.

    .<https://www.securitylocknut.com/>

    The relevant patents are US 1,166,203 and US 1,400,154.
    .<https://www.securitylocknut.com/post/how-does-the-security-locknut-work>

    By the way, McMaster carries these. >.<https://www.mcmaster.com/products/nuts/locking-type~steel-insert/>


    Joe Gwinn
    Looks like a similar action as the FujiLok

    Do you have any more information or URLs for FujiLok? Google didn't
    help because I didn't know enough to pull this out of the irrelevant
    hits.

    I think I found them. The company is "Fuji Seimitsu Manufacturing Co
    Ltd ".

    .<https://www.fun.co.jp/en/u-town/company/history/>

    The locknut is basically the same as the Security Locknut steel
    insert. There is a US patent that I have not yet found, so there must
    be some difference.

    Joe Gwinn

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
    * Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)
  • From Joe Gwinn@21:1/5 to All on Tue Apr 16 12:37:47 2024
    On Tue, 16 Apr 2024 12:19:31 -0400, Joe Gwinn <joegwinn@comcast.net>
    wrote:

    On Tue, 16 Apr 2024 10:38:25 -0400, Joe Gwinn <joegwinn@comcast.net>
    wrote:

    On Mon, 15 Apr 2024 20:16:53 -0400, Clare Snyder <clare@snyder.on.ca> >>wrote:

    On Mon, 15 Apr 2024 16:30:25 -0400, Joe Gwinn <joegwinn@comcast.net> >>>wrote:

    On Mon, 15 Apr 2024 17:13:07 +0100, David Billington <djb@invalid.com> >>>>wrote:

    On 15/04/2024 16:26, Joe Gwinn wrote:
    On Mon, 15 Apr 2024 00:12:31 -0400, Clare Snyder <clare@snyder.on.ca> >>>>>> wrote:

    On Sun, 14 Apr 2024 15:29:01 -0400, Joe Gwinn <joegwinn@comcast.net> >>>>>>> wrote:

    On Sun, 14 Apr 2024 14:03:12 -0400, Leon Fisk <lfiskgr@gmail.invalid> >>>>>>>> wrote:

    On Sun, 14 Apr 2024 13:08:35 -0400
    Joe Gwinn <joegwinn@comcast.net> wrote:

    <snip>
    Google didn't find LoxNut - buried under food stuff. URL?
    Found this tidbit:

    An-cor-lox nut has a ring of soft metal, such as soft steel or brass at the bottom of
    the nut which turns on freely until the nut strikes the part. >>>>>>>> Found it: Page 74 of the following:
    .<chrome-extension://efaidnbmnnnibpcajpcglclefindmkaj/https://delibra.bg.polsl.pl/Content/16769/P-779_1940_3_Vol107_WU_8.pdf>
    .<https://www.google.com/search?q=%22An-cor-lox%22+lock+nuts+lsminsyed&oq=%22An-cor-lox%22+lock+nuts+lsminsyed&gs_lcrp=EgZjaHJvbWUyBggAEEUYOTIJCAEQIRgKGKABMgkIAhAhGAoYoAEyCQgDECEYChigATIJCAQQIRgKGKABMgkIBRAhGAoYoAHSAQk4Njc0ajBqMTWoAgCwAgA&
    sourceid=chrome&ie=UTF-8>

    No longer made. Company gone. Basically a soft copper washer that is >>>>>>>> squished into contact with the bolt thread.

    I've also run into Spiralock, which looks quite interesting.

    .<https://www.stanleyengineeredfastening.com/en/brands/Optia/Spiralock>

    Joe Gwinn
    Spiralock has gone out of fashion as they are a "single use" locknut >>>>>>> if I remember correctly from my Fiat Allis days - both nut and bolt to >>>>>>> be replaced at every use. Not an issue for NASA as NO bolt gets
    re-used - - - but a pain when repairing a loader/backhoe in mud up to >>>>>>> your ankles- head first!!!
    Good point, although the nuts are pretty cheap, so one can afford to >>>>>> just replace them. The U-straps may also need to be replaced?

    I looked at the page and it reminded me of the Dardelet thread shown in >>>>>Machinery's Handbook, the 21st edition at least which I have. I often >>>>>wonder if Ford used that or similar on the crossflow rocker arm >>>>>adjusters as the threads were self locking, no locknut.

    I had not heard of the Dardelet thread, but it is the same idea as >>>>Spiralock. Not made any more, it seems.

    Dardelet's US patents are US 2,091,788 and US 1,657,244.


    I ran into yet another locknut contender:

    Security Locknut, which originated in the railroad industry a century >>>>ago, for use on such things are the assemblies that get the full >>>>steel-on-steel impact loads. In this case, "security" means against >>>>vibration, not thievery. There is just one supplier, but they are not >>>>terribly expensive.

    .<https://www.securitylocknut.com/>

    The relevant patents are US 1,166,203 and US 1,400,154.
    .<https://www.securitylocknut.com/post/how-does-the-security-locknut-work> >>
    By the way, McMaster carries these. >>.<https://www.mcmaster.com/products/nuts/locking-type~steel-insert/>


    Joe Gwinn
    Looks like a similar action as the FujiLok

    Do you have any more information or URLs for FujiLok? Google didn't
    help because I didn't know enough to pull this out of the irrelevant
    hits.

    I think I found them. The company is "Fuji Seimitsu Manufacturing Co
    Ltd ".

    .<https://www.fun.co.jp/en/u-town/company/history/>

    The locknut is basically the same as the Security Locknut steel
    insert. There is a US patent that I have not yet found, so there must
    be some difference.


    Not so fast. I did find an earlier Chinese patent from FujiLok that
    had a diagram that resembled the Security Locknut, but that is not
    what's currently offered:

    .<https://www.fun.co.jp/en/u-town/products/u-nut/>

    Somewhere in the middle of the sales talk there is a section that
    shows how it's built and works. But no Junker test data.

    Joe Gwinn

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
    * Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)
  • From Clare Snyder@21:1/5 to All on Wed Apr 17 01:11:44 2024
    On Tue, 16 Apr 2024 10:38:25 -0400, Joe Gwinn <joegwinn@comcast.net>
    wrote:

    On Mon, 15 Apr 2024 20:16:53 -0400, Clare Snyder <clare@snyder.on.ca>
    wrote:

    On Mon, 15 Apr 2024 16:30:25 -0400, Joe Gwinn <joegwinn@comcast.net>
    wrote:

    On Mon, 15 Apr 2024 17:13:07 +0100, David Billington <djb@invalid.com> >>>wrote:

    On 15/04/2024 16:26, Joe Gwinn wrote:
    On Mon, 15 Apr 2024 00:12:31 -0400, Clare Snyder <clare@snyder.on.ca> >>>>> wrote:

    On Sun, 14 Apr 2024 15:29:01 -0400, Joe Gwinn <joegwinn@comcast.net> >>>>>> wrote:

    On Sun, 14 Apr 2024 14:03:12 -0400, Leon Fisk <lfiskgr@gmail.invalid> >>>>>>> wrote:

    On Sun, 14 Apr 2024 13:08:35 -0400
    Joe Gwinn <joegwinn@comcast.net> wrote:

    <snip>
    Google didn't find LoxNut - buried under food stuff. URL?
    Found this tidbit:

    An-cor-lox nut has a ring of soft metal, such as soft steel or brass at the bottom of
    the nut which turns on freely until the nut strikes the part.
    Found it: Page 74 of the following:
    .<chrome-extension://efaidnbmnnnibpcajpcglclefindmkaj/https://delibra.bg.polsl.pl/Content/16769/P-779_1940_3_Vol107_WU_8.pdf>
    .<https://www.google.com/search?q=%22An-cor-lox%22+lock+nuts+lsminsyed&oq=%22An-cor-lox%22+lock+nuts+lsminsyed&gs_lcrp=EgZjaHJvbWUyBggAEEUYOTIJCAEQIRgKGKABMgkIAhAhGAoYoAEyCQgDECEYChigATIJCAQQIRgKGKABMgkIBRAhGAoYoAHSAQk4Njc0ajBqMTWoAgCwAgA&
    sourceid=chrome&ie=UTF-8>

    No longer made. Company gone. Basically a soft copper washer that is >>>>>>> squished into contact with the bolt thread.

    I've also run into Spiralock, which looks quite interesting.

    .<https://www.stanleyengineeredfastening.com/en/brands/Optia/Spiralock> >>>>>>>
    Joe Gwinn
    Spiralock has gone out of fashion as they are a "single use" locknut >>>>>> if I remember correctly from my Fiat Allis days - both nut and bolt to >>>>>> be replaced at every use. Not an issue for NASA as NO bolt gets
    re-used - - - but a pain when repairing a loader/backhoe in mud up to >>>>>> your ankles- head first!!!
    Good point, although the nuts are pretty cheap, so one can afford to >>>>> just replace them. The U-straps may also need to be replaced?

    I looked at the page and it reminded me of the Dardelet thread shown in >>>>Machinery's Handbook, the 21st edition at least which I have. I often >>>>wonder if Ford used that or similar on the crossflow rocker arm >>>>adjusters as the threads were self locking, no locknut.

    I had not heard of the Dardelet thread, but it is the same idea as >>>Spiralock. Not made any more, it seems.

    Dardelet's US patents are US 2,091,788 and US 1,657,244.


    I ran into yet another locknut contender:

    Security Locknut, which originated in the railroad industry a century >>>ago, for use on such things are the assemblies that get the full >>>steel-on-steel impact loads. In this case, "security" means against >>>vibration, not thievery. There is just one supplier, but they are not >>>terribly expensive.

    .<https://www.securitylocknut.com/>

    The relevant patents are US 1,166,203 and US 1,400,154.
    .<https://www.securitylocknut.com/post/how-does-the-security-locknut-work>

    By the way, McMaster carries these. >.<https://www.mcmaster.com/products/nuts/locking-type~steel-insert/>


    Joe Gwinn
    Looks like a similar action as the FujiLok

    Do you have any more information or URLs for FujiLok? Google didn't
    help because I didn't know enough to pull this out of the irrelevant
    hits.

    Joe Gwinn

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?app=desktop&v=fdxipd-UXiE
    Just google what is a fuji lock nut or how does a fuji lock nut work https://fujiseimitsu.co.id/products/u-nut/detail.php

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
    * Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)