There are times when the tow pilot and instructor both come to the conclusion that the individual either taking lessons or a rated glider pilot is not performing well enough to merit further instruction or another tow.
Most often there is a safety issue involved that the student or the rated glider pilot is incapable of recognizing their own inability to conform or meet the standard expectation of both or either the tow pilot or instructor.
Safety is the most important issue for all concerned I look forward to hearing from other tow pilots and instructors about this scenario. Old Bob The Purist

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On Monday, April 24, 2023 at 8:31:48 PM UTC-4, youngbl...@gmail.com wrote:

There are times when the tow pilot and instructor both come to the conclusion that the individual either taking lessons or a rated glider pilot is not performing well enough to merit further instruction or another tow.
Most often there is a safety issue involved that the student or the rated glider pilot is incapable of recognizing their own inability to conform or meet the standard expectation of both or either the tow pilot or instructor.
Safety is the most important issue for all concerned I look forward to hearing from other tow pilots and instructors about this scenario. Old Bob The Purist

Decades ago, we had a student (middle aged male) that was taking lessons. He was just not "getting it". It was suggested he "take up something else, like sailing".
His reply, "I did sail before, but my boat sank".
You just can't make this stuff up.

Yes, we have also had "squirrels" flying with us. We politely pushed them along but discussed with some other sites as a heads up.

I was a CFIG.

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Yet another good application of glider flight simulation (Condor). Simulation affords folks who don't belong in a real aircraft the opportunity to experience most of the fun and challenge of flight without incurring the risk they represent to themselves
and others. Offering the simulation option also softens the impact of the message.

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There are some people who while capable of solo flight under benign conditions, will never get to the point of qualifying for
a private rating. Yet, some of them just love to fly with an instructor, love the camaraderie at the airport, enjoy the miracle of soaring, and look forward to the next endless lesson. If they are happy with that situation, I will keep flying with them
indefinitely. So what? One guy I had like that I later discovered had a terminal illness. Who was I to say that he did not merit further instruction?
ROY

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On Monday, April 24, 2023 at 8:31:48 PM UTC-4, youngbl...@gmail.com wrote:

There are times when the tow pilot and instructor both come to the conclusion that the individual either taking lessons or a rated glider pilot is not performing well enough to merit further instruction or another tow.
Most often there is a safety issue involved that the student or the rated glider pilot is incapable of recognizing their own inability to conform or meet the standard expectation of both or either the tow pilot or instructor.
Safety is the most important issue for all concerned I look forward to hearing from other tow pilots and instructors about this scenario. Old Bob The Purist

Many years ago the club I first learned at had a problem student. He was a very intelligent, motivated, quirky, older guy. After say 50 flights he was still wildly inconsistent. On one flight in the club's 2-22 he got up to something like 75
mph in the pattern on a benign day with a target airspeed of say 50. Think about that - it's only a few knots below VNE. In a 2-22 you're standing on the rudder pedals and the fabric is vibrating like a snare drum.

I was president of the club (I was still a kid) but I sat in on a couple of the debriefs. On this particular flight the problem student explained that parallax error and reflections off the canopy made the airspeed unreadable, followed in turn by the
coriollis effect and localized gravity waves. After a few more go-rounds like this we had "the conversation" that said he would likely never solo but could fly dual with us as long as he wanted. He stormed off in a huff.

That Winter he went to a well-known "rating mill" down South and managed to get his Private Rating. Not that long after that he joined another club back home. He somehow managed to convince the check pilot(s) that he could fly, even though he
made several members nervous including towpilots at the local FBO.

Not long after that, he kited up on tow at a couple of hundred feet. The L-19 was pulled up beyond the critical angle. The ensuing dive was unrecoverable, and we had a dead towpilot. Even after that event the glider pilot blamed the towpilot,
the tow operation, and everyone and everything other than himself.

Since that time, a number of the local operations have developed an informal network to warn one another of these problem cases. I for one will never be shy about expressing concerns about students and rated pilots.

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On Wednesday, April 26, 2023 at 9:44:40 AM UTC-4, Papa3 wrote:

On Monday, April 24, 2023 at 8:31:48 PM UTC-4, youngbl...@gmail.com wrote:

There are times when the tow pilot and instructor both come to the conclusion that the individual either taking lessons or a rated glider pilot is not performing well enough to merit further instruction or another tow.
Most often there is a safety issue involved that the student or the rated glider pilot is incapable of recognizing their own inability to conform or meet the standard expectation of both or either the tow pilot or instructor.
Safety is the most important issue for all concerned I look forward to hearing from other tow pilots and instructors about this scenario. Old Bob The Purist

Many years ago the club I first learned at had a problem student. He was a very intelligent, motivated, quirky, older guy. After say 50 flights he was still wildly inconsistent. On one flight in the club's 2-22 he got up to something like 75 mph in the

pattern on a benign day with a target airspeed of say 50. Think about that - it's only a few knots below VNE. In a 2-22 you're standing on the rudder pedals and the fabric is vibrating like a snare drum.

I was president of the club (I was still a kid) but I sat in on a couple of the debriefs. On this particular flight the problem student explained that parallax error and reflections off the canopy made the airspeed unreadable, followed in turn by the

coriollis effect and localized gravity waves. After a few more go-rounds like this we had "the conversation" that said he would likely never solo but could fly dual with us as long as he wanted. He stormed off in a huff.

That Winter he went to a well-known "rating mill" down South and managed to get his Private Rating. Not that long after that he joined another club back home. He somehow managed to convince the check pilot(s) that he could fly, even though he made

several members nervous including towpilots at the local FBO.

Not long after that, he kited up on tow at a couple of hundred feet. The L-19 was pulled up beyond the critical angle. The ensuing dive was unrecoverable, and we had a dead towpilot. Even after that event the glider pilot blamed the towpilot, the tow

operation, and everyone and everything other than himself.

Since that time, a number of the local operations have developed an informal network to warn one another of these problem cases. I for one will never be shy about expressing concerns about students and rated pilots.

I remember that "squirrel", and, a couple of us went to the funeral for the towpilot. Kinda hard to crash a L-19 by being out of position, but it is possible as shown.

We did have a student that was legally blind, but could sorta "see". We would take her up so she could enjoy the feeling of flight even though she would never solo. We felt good about helping her enjoy something we could provide.

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On Wednesday, April 26, 2023 at 10:34:37 AM UTC-4, Charlie M. (UH, Pi & 002 owner/pilot) wrote:

On Wednesday, April 26, 2023 at 9:44:40 AM UTC-4, Papa3 wrote:

On Monday, April 24, 2023 at 8:31:48 PM UTC-4, youngbl...@gmail.com wrote:

There are times when the tow pilot and instructor both come to the conclusion that the individual either taking lessons or a rated glider pilot is not performing well enough to merit further instruction or another tow.
Most often there is a safety issue involved that the student or the rated glider pilot is incapable of recognizing their own inability to conform or meet the standard expectation of both or either the tow pilot or instructor.
Safety is the most important issue for all concerned I look forward to hearing from other tow pilots and instructors about this scenario. Old Bob The Purist

Many years ago the club I first learned at had a problem student. He was a very intelligent, motivated, quirky, older guy. After say 50 flights he was still wildly inconsistent. On one flight in the club's 2-22 he got up to something like 75 mph in

the pattern on a benign day with a target airspeed of say 50. Think about that - it's only a few knots below VNE. In a 2-22 you're standing on the rudder pedals and the fabric is vibrating like a snare drum.

I was president of the club (I was still a kid) but I sat in on a couple of the debriefs. On this particular flight the problem student explained that parallax error and reflections off the canopy made the airspeed unreadable, followed in turn by the

coriollis effect and localized gravity waves. After a few more go-rounds like this we had "the conversation" that said he would likely never solo but could fly dual with us as long as he wanted. He stormed off in a huff.

That Winter he went to a well-known "rating mill" down South and managed to get his Private Rating. Not that long after that he joined another club back home. He somehow managed to convince the check pilot(s) that he could fly, even though he made

several members nervous including towpilots at the local FBO.

Not long after that, he kited up on tow at a couple of hundred feet. The L-19 was pulled up beyond the critical angle. The ensuing dive was unrecoverable, and we had a dead towpilot. Even after that event the glider pilot blamed the towpilot, the tow

operation, and everyone and everything other than himself.

Since that time, a number of the local operations have developed an informal network to warn one another of these problem cases. I for one will never be shy about expressing concerns about students and rated pilots.

I remember that "squirrel", and, a couple of us went to the funeral for the towpilot. Kinda hard to crash a L-19 by being out of position, but it is possible as shown.

We did have a student that was legally blind, but could sorta "see". We would take her up so she could enjoy the feeling of flight even though she would never solo. We felt good about helping her enjoy something we could provide.

There have been a few times when towing a student or rated pilot that I thought hard and long about being in that tow pilots seat. Things happen quickly and if not prepared they can and will be deadly. Here is my scenario's of look out, two instructors
in the sailplane, a solo student that you were skeptical of prior to solo, a low time know it all that has no concept of towing, and then you have the rated pilot that hasn't flown in a while.
My relationship with our instructors is IMHO fantastic, on many flights the instructor will ask me how the tow went and especially on solo flights the instructor will actually look at me upon landing and ask for a thumbs up or down.
Some very low time and new glider pilots have no concept of tow pilot safety, all they are concerned about is getting them in the air at all cost and that includes a lack of understanding for safety.
Look at it anyway that you like, but the tow pilot is still the PIC, and his or hers word is the final word! If you don't like it get your butt in your motorglider and self launch. Old Bob, The Purist

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Bob:
You are quite correct.
I was for many years the Chief Pilot for a large club and I often had to manage safety questions with this observation:
Sooner or later, the weakest glider pilot in the club will meet the weakest tug pilot in the club - with each at opposite ends of the same rope.
It made me re-think some things, especially about who should solo and who should tow.
ROY

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The worst tow I ever gave in 35 years of towing was a very high time
pilot (though I don't know about his glider time), possessor of numerous
type ratings, retired from the FAA.

His friend who brought him to Moriarty told me how great he was and how
proud he was of his new to him HP-14. He got so high and wide on the
departure turn that I yelled on the radio for him to get off as I was
reaching for the release. Fortunately for me, the rope wrapped around
his wing and, as it tightened, it sliced the wing clear back to the spar
and then cut it in two.

I guess he never looked at the wing because he climbed away and flew for
over three hours. The damage to his glider was found while pulling the
wings off after the flight.

I refused to tow him again and quit towing not long after that. I'm
much happier now flying my motor glider.

Dan
5J

On 4/27/23 00:56, Roy B. wrote:

Bob:
You are quite correct.
I was for many years the Chief Pilot for a large club and I often had to manage safety questions with this observation:
Sooner or later, the weakest glider pilot in the club will meet the weakest tug pilot in the club - with each at opposite ends of the same rope.
It made me re-think some things, especially about who should solo and who should tow.
ROY

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On Thursday, April 27, 2023 at 2:56:56 AM UTC-4, Roy B. wrote:

Bob:
You are quite correct.
I was for many years the Chief Pilot for a large club and I often had to manage safety questions with this observation:
Sooner or later, the weakest glider pilot in the club will meet the weakest tug pilot in the club - with each at opposite ends of the same rope.
It made me re-think some things, especially about who should solo and who should tow.
ROY

Roy:
More emphasis should be placed on performance on tow, from both ends of the rope. I, for almost seven years have owned the tow planes at the club, so therefore I have been extremely cautious as to whom I let tow. My vetting of tow pilots comes from
years of experience both good and bad.
I always discuss the tow with glider pilots that are going solo and even very experienced glider pilots. It is not unusual for me to tell a glider pilot that is carrying water that I am aware of his extra weight and I will be giving him a bit more speed
and a bit more time in ground effect so that we climb out at a speed that gives the glider pilot a larger margin of safety, yes, SAFETY!
There is nothing more that makes me smile than being the tow pilot for our youth members on their first solo flight and I am sure you feel the same way. Old Bob, The Purist

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Since my glider has a CG hook, I stay just above the wake for tow pilot preservation.

Interestingly I find it easier to be towed with a CG hook than a nose hook. Nose hooks impart yaw and pitch moments that have to be countered with rudder and elevator.

There's been two times I've had to yank it when suddenly too high on tow. The tow pilot was towing 10 kt slower than the manual recommends and I requested.

The odd instructor (generally one who has not done tows with a CG hook) during a check ride wants me higher on tow.

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On Wednesday, April 26, 2023 at 9:39:13 PM UTC-4, youngbl...@gmail.com wrote:

On Wednesday, April 26, 2023 at 10:34:37 AM UTC-4, Charlie M. (UH, Pi & 002 owner/pilot) wrote:

On Wednesday, April 26, 2023 at 9:44:40 AM UTC-4, Papa3 wrote:

On Monday, April 24, 2023 at 8:31:48 PM UTC-4, youngbl...@gmail.com wrote:

There are times when the tow pilot and instructor both come to the conclusion that the individual either taking lessons or a rated glider pilot is not performing well enough to merit further instruction or another tow.
Most often there is a safety issue involved that the student or the rated glider pilot is incapable of recognizing their own inability to conform or meet the standard expectation of both or either the tow pilot or instructor.
Safety is the most important issue for all concerned I look forward to hearing from other tow pilots and instructors about this scenario. Old Bob The Purist

Many years ago the club I first learned at had a problem student. He was a very intelligent, motivated, quirky, older guy. After say 50 flights he was still wildly inconsistent. On one flight in the club's 2-22 he got up to something like 75 mph in

the pattern on a benign day with a target airspeed of say 50. Think about that - it's only a few knots below VNE. In a 2-22 you're standing on the rudder pedals and the fabric is vibrating like a snare drum.

I was president of the club (I was still a kid) but I sat in on a couple of the debriefs. On this particular flight the problem student explained that parallax error and reflections off the canopy made the airspeed unreadable, followed in turn by

the coriollis effect and localized gravity waves. After a few more go-rounds like this we had "the conversation" that said he would likely never solo but could fly dual with us as long as he wanted. He stormed off in a huff.

That Winter he went to a well-known "rating mill" down South and managed to get his Private Rating. Not that long after that he joined another club back home. He somehow managed to convince the check pilot(s) that he could fly, even though he made

several members nervous including towpilots at the local FBO.

Not long after that, he kited up on tow at a couple of hundred feet. The L-19 was pulled up beyond the critical angle. The ensuing dive was unrecoverable, and we had a dead towpilot. Even after that event the glider pilot blamed the towpilot, the

tow operation, and everyone and everything other than himself.

Since that time, a number of the local operations have developed an informal network to warn one another of these problem cases. I for one will never be shy about expressing concerns about students and rated pilots.

I remember that "squirrel", and, a couple of us went to the funeral for the towpilot. Kinda hard to crash a L-19 by being out of position, but it is possible as shown.

We did have a student that was legally blind, but could sorta "see". We would take her up so she could enjoy the feeling of flight even though she would never solo. We felt good about helping her enjoy something we could provide.

There have been a few times when towing a student or rated pilot that I thought hard and long about being in that tow pilots seat. Things happen quickly and if not prepared they can and will be deadly. Here is my scenario's of look out, two instructors

in the sailplane, a solo student that you were skeptical of prior to solo, a low time know it all that has no concept of towing, and then you have the rated pilot that hasn't flown in a while.

My relationship with our instructors is IMHO fantastic, on many flights the instructor will ask me how the tow went and especially on solo flights the instructor will actually look at me upon landing and ask for a thumbs up or down.
Some very low time and new glider pilots have no concept of tow pilot safety, all they are concerned about is getting them in the air at all cost and that includes a lack of understanding for safety.
Look at it anyway that you like, but the tow pilot is still the PIC, and his or hers word is the final word! If you don't like it get your butt in your motorglider and self launch. Old Bob, The Purist

Two instructors in a sailplane? I can well imagine how such a scenario might work out. A solo student that you were skeptical of prior to solo? I absolutely know what the outcome of this could be. Considering I have over 1000 hours of combat flying
time during the Vietnam Police Action I find it odd that towing a student whose lights were on but nobody was home was the closest I’ve come to dying in an airplane. Had I checked this person’s social media prior to the tow I would have said NO,
loudly and vigorously.

The rated pilot who hasn’t flown in a while? Absolutely, especially those little balls of fuzz pushing 75 from the other side with obvious physical disabilities. One in particular had a self launcher but the engine was inoperable so he opted for a
tow. I remember pulling up in front of the line of gliders as he was attempting to put his in front of the line. I stopped, got out and helped him push his ship off to the side and wait his turn. I’d never seen him before, the day was busy and I
was doing my best to keep things moving and make everyone happy, something I have come to realize is not remotely possibly but I try. When I did tow him he was marginal at best but I had pulled worse. When we got to 2000 feet he went vertical, looking
at him in the mirror I could see the entire underbelly and tail. I went for the release but to no avail, this handle was installed inappropriately and probably without approval. That’s another story for another time. When he returned I along with
another pilot asked him what happened. (He never acknowledge my radio calls to him immediately after the event). He said he reached for their release but “slipped back in his seat and inadvertently pulled the stick full back.

I would be a good idea to inquire as to the time the last tow was made by anyone who shows up at a field, relatively unknown to the flying community. Have them demonstrate their currency and proficiency with an instructor.

I fully understand people wanting to continue to try to learn to fly even if they have deficiencies. The person with a terminal illness, the person with visual problems who just wants to experience flight, the sensations associated, the view is
perfectly understandable. Keep them with an instructor, allow them the joy of flight but obviously going solo will not be in the cards. BUT the idea that someone who has clearly demonstrated to the most experienced flight instructor on the field that
they should not be flying is another story altogether. While it is Nobel to say “I’m not going to tell someone who wants to continue to try that they can’t,” someone of such unpredictability and questionable skill presents a danger not only to
the tow pilot but to themselves. When keeping the bottom line in the black, the cost of crash might require a few red ink pens moving forward.

Fly safety and well my friends.

Walt Connelly

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I have such a student. He started flying around age 70, then got delayed as the pandemic shut down operations for a while. I joined the club and started flying with him. Other instructors got frustrated with his "lack of progress". I'll fly with him. We
sat and talked, he fully understands he may never progress to "solo status", but he loves being at the field, helping, taking a lesson (flight), comradery is a big draw. I had him capable of takeoff and flying on tow. I have not had him box the wake or
intentional slack lines. He can thermal with coaching and we've had hour long flights. We were getting into landings when fall hit us for the winter shut down.
Bill

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On Sunday, April 30, 2023 at 4:28:49 PM UTC-4, Bill Tisdale wrote:

I have such a student. He started flying around age 70, then got delayed as the pandemic shut down operations for a while. I joined the club and started flying with him. Other instructors got frustrated with his "lack of progress". I'll fly with him.

We sat and talked, he fully understands he may never progress to "solo status", but he loves being at the field, helping, taking a lesson (flight), comradery is a big draw. I had him capable of takeoff and flying on tow. I have not had him box the wake
or intentional slack lines. He can thermal with coaching and we've had hour long flights. We were getting into landings when fall hit us for the winter shut down.

Bill

And now?

R

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On Sunday, April 30, 2023 at 4:28:49 PM UTC-4, Bill Tisdale wrote:

I have such a student. He started flying around age 70, then got delayed as the pandemic shut down operations for a while. I joined the club and started flying with him. Other instructors got frustrated with his "lack of progress". I'll fly with him.

We sat and talked, he fully understands he may never progress to "solo status", but he loves being at the field, helping, taking a lesson (flight), comradery is a big draw. I had him capable of takeoff and flying on tow. I have not had him box the wake
or intentional slack lines. He can thermal with coaching and we've had hour long flights. We were getting into landings when fall hit us for the winter shut down.

Bill

I had a guy that took almost 200 flights to solo, I was the tow pilot for his solo flight and I must admit that I was more than a bit concerned. Yes, there have been times when I was concerned, yet he has finally demonstrated that he can stay behind the
towplane and that in and of itself is a monumental accomplishment. OBTP

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On Sunday, April 30, 2023 at 6:52:28 PM UTC-4, R wrote:

On Sunday, April 30, 2023 at 4:28:49 PM UTC-4, Bill Tisdale wrote:

I have such a student. He started flying around age 70, then got delayed as the pandemic shut down operations for a while. I joined the club and started flying with him. Other instructors got frustrated with his "lack of progress". I'll fly with him.

We sat and talked, he fully understands he may never progress to "solo status", but he loves being at the field, helping, taking a lesson (flight), comradery is a big draw. I had him capable of takeoff and flying on tow. I have not had him box the wake
or intentional slack lines. He can thermal with coaching and we've had hour long flights. We were getting into landings when fall hit us for the winter shut down.

Bill

And now?

R

We just started the spring flying last week. Spring checkouts and Flight Reviews for rated pilots. We lost this weekend to rain.
Bill

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On Sunday, April 30, 2023 at 4:28:49 PM UTC-4, Bill Tisdale wrote:

I have such a student. He started flying around age 70, then got delayed as the pandemic shut down operations for a while. I joined the club and started flying with him. Other instructors got frustrated with his "lack of progress". I'll fly with him.

We sat and talked, he fully understands he may never progress to "solo status", but he loves being at the field, helping, taking a lesson (flight), comradery is a big draw. I had him capable of takeoff and flying on tow. I have not had him box the wake
or intentional slack lines. He can thermal with coaching and we've had hour long flights. We were getting into landings when fall hit us for the winter shut down.

Bill

I got a helicopter/rotorcraft rating at 68, after the check ride the examiner said, "GOOD RIDE.!!" He said I was the oldest candidate he had ever had. At 68 I was more careful than I was at 18 or 28. I think a bit more and assess things more
carefully but I don't think my ability to learn is slowed to any substantial degree. It was nice to be able to spend 800-900 bucks a day on a couple of hours of flying lessons without having to go without eating a big dinner. I ate a lot of hot dogs in
my younger years. I did this on a bit of a whim when a friend who flew Super Jollys in Vietnam told me it was unlikely I could learn to fly a helicopter at my age.

The helicopter was a completely different skill set than an airplane so my fixed wing background wasn't much help at all. Don't let age get in your way. At 70 I was more than holding my own in a Krav Maga class with students one half, one third and one
quarter my age. Age Is just a number unless you have bad genes.

Walt Connelly

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Who checks out the spring checker-outers? Inquiring minds and all..

Dan
5J

On 4/30/23 18:44, Bill Tisdale wrote:

We just started the spring flying last week. Spring checkouts and Flight Reviews for rated pilots. We lost this weekend to rain.
Bill

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On Monday, May 1, 2023 at 12:24:25 PM UTC-4, Dan Marotta wrote:

Who checks out the spring checker-outers? Inquiring minds and all..

Dan
5J
On 4/30/23 18:44, Bill Tisdale wrote:

We just started the spring flying last week. Spring checkouts and Flight Reviews for rated pilots. We lost this weekend to rain.
Bill

Excellent question Dan, maybe it is the winter wonder glider CFIG's. OBTP

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On Monday, May 1, 2023 at 12:24:25 PM UTC-4, Dan Marotta wrote:

Who checks out the spring checker-outers? Inquiring minds and all..

Dan
5J
On 4/30/23 18:44, Bill Tisdale wrote:

We just started the spring flying last week. Spring checkouts and Flight Reviews for rated pilots. We lost this weekend to rain.
Bill

Dan, instructors that have been flying all winter.
Bill

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On Monday, May 1, 2023 at 12:24:25 PM UTC-4, Dan Marotta wrote:

Who checks out the spring checker-outers? Inquiring minds and all..

Dan
5J
On 4/30/23 18:44, Bill Tisdale wrote:

We just started the spring flying last week. Spring checkouts and Flight Reviews for rated pilots. We lost this weekend to rain.
Bill

At our club, Instructors with more than 200 glider flights in the last year. Not much rust accumulates.
UH

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Thanks! As someone who flies year round I always wondered. I still get
my mandated flight review every two years, usually in my power plane,
though the Stemme is far more complex.

Dan
5J

On 5/1/23 16:15, Bill Tisdale wrote:

On Monday, May 1, 2023 at 12:24:25 PM UTC-4, Dan Marotta wrote:

Who checks out the spring checker-outers? Inquiring minds and all..

Dan
5J
On 4/30/23 18:44, Bill Tisdale wrote:

We just started the spring flying last week. Spring checkouts and Flight Reviews for rated pilots. We lost this weekend to rain.
Bill

Dan, instructors that have been flying all winter.
Bill

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