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Salem Harris
Studied at the Institute of Jewish Studies, PBUUpdated Aug 19
What would happen to Gaza and the West Bank if Palestine had complete
control over all of its territory without the existence of Israel?

We’ve already seen what happens. I was in Jericho a few times before
Israel completely turned it over. It always struck me that in the middle
of the desert was this practical oasis near the Dead Sea. Several times
from visiting the Eastern Orthodox Monastery of the Mount of Temptation
I would look down and see the disparity of the desert and Jericho.

The Archaeological site was exciting and thriving. My professor and a
handful of us got to do some simple excavation, and found some cool
textured shards. We hit a nice cafe and enjoyed our time there.

And then it was turned over to the PLO.

The very next year when we returned I was actually shocked. The site
itself was trashed. Parts were now inaccessible. We were escorted to a
nice rest stop that was being passed off to us as the good things that
the PLO was doing for the town. We were encouraged not to go anywhere
else. I did not heed the encouragement, heading back up to the monastery.

When I looked down it was almost heartbreaking. The disparity was
vanishing. The desert was encroaching. The town looked dismal. I would
have hoped it was an isolated incident- except that I had seen something
nearly identical with Bethlehem.

The sad thing was? The real loss was to the ordinary Palestinians. Shops
were closing left and right as tourism dried up. And all the PLO would
do was occasionally leave their mansions and blame all of the decay on
Israel.

I almost adore the very carefully chosen shots of Gaza that Hamas floats
out to the press. They show very select areas - just like the PLO did,
and hide the decay. They then blame the Israelis for all their woes,
foment the public - who largely just wants to be left alone, and then
launch attacks like they did on October 7.

For some reason it is the lot of the Palestinian people to fall victim
to corrupt leaders who don’t give a damn about anything but annihilating
the Jewish People and pushing Israel into the sea. They try to harken
back to a time before Israel as a golden era of some Palestinian state - ignorant that some of us know the history of the Levant.

Before Israel the area was a down-trodden province of the British
Empire, dirty, corrupt, and impoverished. Before the British it was even
worse. The Ottomans overtaxed the area, exploiting everything they
could, and giving the inhabitants- Arab and Jew alike, no say in their
affairs. There was no idealistic self governing Palestinian state. There
had been no self governing state at all since the Bar Kochba Rebellion
in the second century.

edit: I did err in calling Palestine a British “province”. It was a mandate. A mandate that was administered, protected, corrected,
punished, controlled, and eventually taxed.

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Keith Stepp
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On 10/24/24 12:07, a425couple wrote:

Salem Harris
Studied at the Institute of Jewish Studies, PBUUpdated Aug 19
What would happen to Gaza and the West Bank if Palestine had complete
control over all of its territory without the existence of Israel?

We’ve already seen what happens. I was in Jericho a few times before
Israel completely turned it over. It always struck me that in the middle
of the desert was this practical oasis near the Dead Sea. Several times
from visiting the Eastern Orthodox Monastery of the Mount of Temptation
I would look down and see the disparity of the desert and Jericho.

The Archaeological site was exciting and thriving. My professor and a
handful of us got to do some simple excavation, and found some cool
textured shards. We hit a nice cafe and enjoyed our time there.

And then it was turned over to the PLO.

The very next year when we returned I was actually shocked. The site
itself was trashed. ----

Keith Stepp
· Aug 15
He's right the ruins in Jericho have been trashed. There has been no
upkeep and the work that was done is eroding away. I used to have to go
back and forth between Israel and the Wast Bank. As soon as you cross
over into the WB you notice a change. There is trash everywhere. It is
the same in the Old City. There are four sections to the Old City. The
Islamic section is the dirtiest and least safe part of the city.

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Salem Harris
· Aug 16
I just remember being so discouraged to see the almost immediate
turnaround of that dig. It had been so promising.

Keith Stepp
I'm with you. The original trench is filling in again and everything
that waa exposed is disintegrating. Nothing is preserved on the
Palestinian side.
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JWH
· Sep 13
Sad as Christians, we cannot visit the birthplace of Jesus Christ for
fears or safety and harassment

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John Lonberger
· Sep 20
That was a major motivation for the Crusades - but not much has changed
since. And yes, some of the Crusader did some awful things along the
way, BUT… they really aren’t/weren’t the scourge of the ME by a long shot. It wasn’t that long ago, like the 1960s, when Lebanon was a
wonderful place before the Jihadis moved in to the detriment of the
Christians and Druze. - and the ME in genera

Larry Deblinger
· Aug 14
“For some reason it is the lot of the Palestinian people to fall victim
to corrupt leaders…” I don’t know if we need to be so mystified. The Palestinian people, like many Arabs, just don’t have any tradition or
vision for nation-building. Their culture tends much more towards identification through religion/religious sect, tribe and family. That
is why the Palestinian people never formed a nation before the Jews
started emigrating there in large numbers in the early 20th century.
That is also why many other Arab nations like Lebanon, Syria, and Iraq,
are in such a chaotic state. The failure of the Palestinians to organize themselves into a nation leaves a social void, and voids are usually
filled by the most aggressive and selfishly motivated, i.e., corrupt,
people.

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Salem Harris
· Aug 14
I think I agree with most of what you’re saying- I would add that quote
from Abba Eban “the Arabs never miss an opportunity to miss an opportunity.”

And too, the Palestinians and neighbors haven’t been in a place to be proactive about their futures and outcomes - pretty much forever.
They’ve had more of a chance to do that since the creation of Israel.
They have representatives in the Knesset and local leaders; how many representatives does one suppose they had in British parliament? How
often did the Ottoman Sultans entertain envoys from the Palestinian
province to see how they could improve the impoverished Palestinians?
Neither of the previous overlords could give two figs for the
Palestinian people.

Emma Cassorla
Do not confuse Arabs living in Israel who are citizens with full rights,
and the populations of Gaza and Judea/Samaria who are goverrned by Hamas
and the PA(PLO) respectively, both terrorist organizations whose leaders
have enriched themselves by stealing aid from their citizens while doing
little or nothing to improve their lives. It is heartbreaking to think
of all the lives wasted or cut short for a delusion.
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Keith Stepp
· Sep 13
Arafat moved his family to France and had three billion dollars in
Switzerland if I remember correctly. So, I completely agree with you.

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