• (Tor Dot Com) Five SF Stories Involving Memory Manipulation

    From James Nicoll@21:1/5 to All on Fri Jan 19 15:18:08 2024
    Five SF Stories Involving Memory Manipulation

    Memories: inherently unreliable or subject to alteration according to need?

    https://www.tor.com/2024/01/19/five-sf-stories-involving-memory-manipulation/ --
    My reviews can be found at http://jamesdavisnicoll.com/
    My tor pieces at https://www.tor.com/author/james-davis-nicoll/
    My Dreamwidth at https://james-davis-nicoll.dreamwidth.org/
    My patreon is at https://www.patreon.com/jamesdnicoll

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  • From Don@21:1/5 to James Nicoll on Sat Jan 20 02:54:13 2024
    James Nicoll wrote:
    Five SF Stories Involving Memory Manipulation

    Memories: inherently unreliable or subject to alteration according to need?

    https://www.tor.com/2024/01/19/five-sf-stories-involving-memory-manipulation/

    The Tor thread mentions "We Can Remember it For You Wholesale" (PKD).
    Yet "Tlön, Uqbar, Orbis Tertius" (Borges) multiplies mnemonic
    manipulation to make it cover an entire planet:

    Tlön’s putative “primitive language” has now found its way
    into our schools; the teaching of its harmonious history,
    so full of stirring episodes, has obliterated the history
    that presided over my childhood; in our memories a
    fictitious past has now replaced our past, of which we know
    nothing for certain—not even that it is false.

    Danke,

    --
    Don.......My cat's )\._.,--....,'``. https://crcomp.net/reviews.php telltale tall tail /, _.. \ _\ (`._ ,. Walk humbly with thy God.
    tells tall tales.. `._.-(,_..'--(,_..'`-.;.' Make 1984 fiction again.

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  • From D@21:1/5 to Don on Sat Jan 20 13:48:44 2024
    On Sat, 20 Jan 2024, Don wrote:

    James Nicoll wrote:
    Five SF Stories Involving Memory Manipulation

    Memories: inherently unreliable or subject to alteration according to need? >>
    https://www.tor.com/2024/01/19/five-sf-stories-involving-memory-manipulation/

    The Tor thread mentions "We Can Remember it For You Wholesale" (PKD).
    Yet "Tl??n, Uqbar, Orbis Tertius" (Borges) multiplies mnemonic
    manipulation to make it cover an entire planet:

    Tl??n???s putative ???primitive language??? has now found its way
    into our schools; the teaching of its harmonious history,
    so full of stirring episodes, has obliterated the history
    that presided over my childhood; in our memories a
    fictitious past has now replaced our past, of which we know
    nothing for certain???not even that it is false.

    Interesting! Never thought of them together, but it makes perfect sense. I
    like both. Thank you for making that connection!

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
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  • From Don@21:1/5 to All on Sat Jan 20 14:46:59 2024
    D wrote:
    Don wrote:
    James Nicoll wrote:
    Five SF Stories Involving Memory Manipulation

    Memories: inherently unreliable or subject to alteration according to need? >>>
    https://www.tor.com/2024/01/19/five-sf-stories-involving-memory-manipulation/

    The Tor thread mentions "We Can Remember it For You Wholesale" (PKD).
    Yet "Tlon, Uqbar, Orbis Tertius" (Borges) multiplies mnemonic
    manipulation to make it cover an entire planet:

    Tlon's putative "primitive language" has now found its way
    into our schools; the teaching of its harmonious history,
    so full of stirring episodes, has obliterated the history
    that presided over my childhood; in our memories a
    fictitious past has now replaced our past, of which we know
    nothing for certain-not even that it is false.

    Interesting! Never thought of them together, but it makes perfect sense. I like both. Thank you for making that connection!

    Thank you for your kind words.

    Among other things, suppression and repression respectively refer to
    either the conscious or unconscious exclusion of memories. And both
    words coincidentally carry connotations of political tactics.

    Orwellian memory holes appear intentional and suggest suppression
    in the sense of both memorial and political.

    "In politics, nothing happens by accident. If it happens,
    you can bet it was planned that way."

    Rhetorical question: isn't it impossible to understand political plans if history has huge holes in it?

    "The only thing new in the world is the history you do
    not know."

    Danke,

    --
    Don.......My cat's )\._.,--....,'``. https://crcomp.net/reviews.php telltale tall tail /, _.. \ _\ (`._ ,. Walk humbly with thy God.
    tells tall tales.. `._.-(,_..'--(,_..'`-.;.' Make 1984 fiction again.

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
    * Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)
  • From Ted Nolan @21:1/5 to g@crcomp.net on Sat Jan 20 18:40:31 2024
    In article <20240120a@crcomp.net>, Don <g@crcomp.net> wrote:
    D wrote:
    Don wrote:
    James Nicoll wrote:
    Five SF Stories Involving Memory Manipulation

    Memories: inherently unreliable or subject to alteration according to need?

    https://www.tor.com/2024/01/19/five-sf-stories-involving-memory-manipulation/ >>>
    The Tor thread mentions "We Can Remember it For You Wholesale" (PKD).
    Yet "Tlon, Uqbar, Orbis Tertius" (Borges) multiplies mnemonic
    manipulation to make it cover an entire planet:

    Tlon's putative "primitive language" has now found its way
    into our schools; the teaching of its harmonious history,
    so full of stirring episodes, has obliterated the history
    that presided over my childhood; in our memories a
    fictitious past has now replaced our past, of which we know
    nothing for certain-not even that it is false.

    Interesting! Never thought of them together, but it makes perfect sense. I >> like both. Thank you for making that connection!

    Thank you for your kind words.

    Among other things, suppression and repression respectively refer to
    either the conscious or unconscious exclusion of memories. And both
    words coincidentally carry connotations of political tactics.

    Orwellian memory holes appear intentional and suggest suppression
    in the sense of both memorial and political.

    "In politics, nothing happens by accident. If it happens,
    you can bet it was planned that way."

    Rhetorical question: isn't it impossible to understand political plans if >history has huge holes in it?

    "The only thing new in the world is the history you do
    not know."


    Not memory manipulation exactly, or even history 'manipulation', but
    RA Lafferty speculated in "Barnaby's Clock" that there is just too much
    history for the time alotted to it, and something has to give:

    "I have never discovered any historical event happening for
    the first time," Barnaby said. "Either life imitates anecdote,
    or very much more has happened than the bursting records
    are allowed to show as happening. As far back as one can
    track it, there is history: and I do not mean prehistory.
    I doubt if there was ever such a time as prehistory. I doubt
    that there was ever an uncivilized man. I also doubt that
    there was ever any manlike creature who was not full man,
    however unconventional the suit of hide that he wore.

    "But when you try to compress a hundred thousand years of
    history into six thousand years, something has to give.
    When you try to compress a million years, it becomes
    dangerous. An involuted number series, particularly when
    applied to the spate of years, becomes a tightly coiled
    spring of primordial spring-steel. When it recoils, look
    out! There comes the revenge of things left out.

    "Were there eight kings of the name of Henry in England,
    or were there eighty? Never mind: someday it will be recorded
    that there was only one, and the attributes of all of them
    will be combined into his compressed and consensus story.

    "There is a deep texture of art and literature (no matter
    whether it is rock scratching or machine duplication) that
    goes back over horizon after horizon. There is a deeper
    texture to life itself that is tremendous in its material
    and mental and psychic treasures. There are dialects now
    that were once full vernaculars, towns now that were once
    great cities, provinces that were nations. The foundations
    and the lower stories of a culture or a building are commonly
    broader than its upper stories. A structure does not balance
    upside-down, standing on a point.

    "A torch was once lighted and given to a man, not to a
    beast. And it has been passed on from hand to hand while
    the hills melted and rose again. What matter that some of
    the hands were more hairy than others? It was always a man's
    hand."

    "It may be that you are balancing upside-down on your pointed
    head, Barney," Harry O'Donovan told him.
    --
    columbiaclosings.com
    What's not in Columbia anymore..

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  • From Christian Weisgerber@21:1/5 to James Nicoll on Sat Jan 20 18:55:51 2024
    On 2024-01-19, James Nicoll <jdnicoll@panix.com> wrote:

    Five SF Stories Involving Memory Manipulation
    Memories: inherently unreliable or subject to alteration according to need?

    https://www.tor.com/2024/01/19/five-sf-stories-involving-memory-manipulation/

    The movie _Total Recall_ (1990) nicely illustrates the danger.
    Maybe the Philip K. Dick story that inspired it does too, but I
    haven't read that one.

    In _Perry Rhodan_'s Cappins plotline (#400-499), Ovaron is a man in
    a security-related position who notices inconsistencies in his
    memories and goes on to investigate. This inadvertently puts him
    in great danger, because as it turns out he is a deep-cover spy who intentionally sealed and manipulated his memories as part of his
    mission. Oops. (Va snpg, ur'f gur ehyre (!) bs n pbzcrgvat rzcver,
    jub qhr gb uvf enax vf gur bayl bar nyybjrq gb unir n cnegvphyne
    zbqvsvpngvba gung vf pbzzba nzbat gur uvture enaxf bs uvf bccbaragf.)

    --
    Christian "naddy" Weisgerber naddy@mips.inka.de

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  • From Christian Weisgerber@21:1/5 to Lynn McGuire on Sat Jan 20 19:00:46 2024
    On 2024-01-20, Lynn McGuire <lynnmcguire5@gmail.com> wrote:

    Five SF Stories Involving Memory Manipulation
    Memories: inherently unreliable or subject to alteration according to need? >>
    https://www.tor.com/2024/01/19/five-sf-stories-involving-memory-manipulation/

    I immediately thought of "Memory" by Lois McMaster Bujold.

    But that is a case of technologically-mediated dementia, not memory manipulation.

    --
    Christian "naddy" Weisgerber naddy@mips.inka.de

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  • From Paul S Person@21:1/5 to naddy@mips.inka.de on Sun Jan 21 08:28:12 2024
    On Sat, 20 Jan 2024 18:55:51 -0000 (UTC), Christian Weisgerber <naddy@mips.inka.de> wrote:

    On 2024-01-19, James Nicoll <jdnicoll@panix.com> wrote:

    Five SF Stories Involving Memory Manipulation
    Memories: inherently unreliable or subject to alteration according to need? >>
    https://www.tor.com/2024/01/19/five-sf-stories-involving-memory-manipulation/

    The movie _Total Recall_ (1990) nicely illustrates the danger.
    Maybe the Philip K. Dick story that inspired it does too, but I
    haven't read that one.

    In _Perry Rhodan_'s Cappins plotline (#400-499), Ovaron is a man in
    a security-related position who notices inconsistencies in his
    memories and goes on to investigate. This inadvertently puts him
    in great danger, because as it turns out he is a deep-cover spy who >intentionally sealed and manipulated his memories as part of his
    mission. Oops.

    CJ Cherryh's /Downbelow Station/ has a character who is in a similar
    situation: he volunteers to have his memories removed and replaced,
    but they turn out to be fake memories and he is actually an agent.

    --
    "Here lies the Tuscan poet Aretino,
    Who evil spoke of everyone but God,
    Giving as his excuse, 'I never knew him.'"

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
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  • From Don@21:1/5 to Christian Weisgerber on Mon Jan 22 15:14:47 2024
    Christian Weisgerber wrote:
    James Nicoll wrote:

    Five SF Stories Involving Memory Manipulation
    Memories: inherently unreliable or subject to alteration according to need? >>
    https://www.tor.com/2024/01/19/five-sf-stories-involving-memory-manipulation/

    The movie _Total Recall_ (1990) nicely illustrates the danger.
    Maybe the Philip K. Dick story that inspired it does too, but I
    haven't read that one.

    In _Perry Rhodan_'s Cappins plotline (#400-499), Ovaron is a man in
    a security-related position who notices inconsistencies in his
    memories and goes on to investigate. This inadvertently puts him
    in great danger, because as it turns out he is a deep-cover spy who intentionally sealed and manipulated his memories as part of his
    mission. Oops. (Va snpg, ur'f gur ehyre (!) bs n pbzcrgvat rzcver,
    jub qhr gb uvf enax vf gur bayl bar nyybjrq gb unir n cnegvphyne
    zbqvsvpngvba gung vf pbzzba nzbat gur uvture enaxf bs uvf bccbaragf.)

    Very interesting. Perrypedia <https://www.perrypedia.de/wiki/Ovaron>
    leads me to believe Ovaron's side story starts with PR 437, then truly
    hits its stride in PR 450 - PR 499. So there's my intended reading, or
    rather, listening order. Ovaron oeuvre ought to provide plenty of
    entertainment during dog walks for the following few months.

    Danke,

    --
    Don.......My cat's )\._.,--....,'``. https://crcomp.net/reviews.php telltale tall tail /, _.. \ _\ (`._ ,. Walk humbly with thy God.
    tells tall tales.. `._.-(,_..'--(,_..'`-.;.' Make 1984 fiction again.

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
    * Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)
  • From Christian Weisgerber@21:1/5 to Paul S Person on Mon Jan 22 18:54:06 2024
    On 2024-01-21, Paul S Person <psperson@old.netcom.invalid> wrote:

    CJ Cherryh's /Downbelow Station/ has a character who is in a similar situation: he volunteers to have his memories removed and replaced,
    but they turn out to be fake memories and he is actually an agent.

    Now that I think about it, that's also the start of _Total Recall_: Construction workers goes to have memories of an adventure implanted,
    but then things go wrong, because he's an agent with fake memories.
    Of course it's also possible that this _is_ the fake adventure he
    paid for and the rest of the movie doesn't actually happen...

    --
    Christian "naddy" Weisgerber naddy@mips.inka.de

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  • From Paul S Person@21:1/5 to naddy@mips.inka.de on Tue Jan 23 08:27:01 2024
    On Mon, 22 Jan 2024 18:54:06 -0000 (UTC), Christian Weisgerber <naddy@mips.inka.de> wrote:

    On 2024-01-21, Paul S Person <psperson@old.netcom.invalid> wrote:

    CJ Cherryh's /Downbelow Station/ has a character who is in a similar
    situation: he volunteers to have his memories removed and replaced,
    but they turn out to be fake memories and he is actually an agent.

    Now that I think about it, that's also the start of _Total Recall_: >Construction workers goes to have memories of an adventure implanted,
    but then things go wrong, because he's an agent with fake memories.
    Of course it's also possible that this _is_ the fake adventure he
    paid for and the rest of the movie doesn't actually happen...

    Great minds (Dick and Cherryh) think alike!

    Siskel & Ebert discussed the ambiguity of the film's ending on their
    TV show.

    The remake, like most remakes of really great films, didn't even try
    to reach the level of the original. Apparently, their budget didn't
    extend to filming on Mars ... oh, wait, neither did the original's
    budget.
    --
    "Here lies the Tuscan poet Aretino,
    Who evil spoke of everyone but God,
    Giving as his excuse, 'I never knew him.'"

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
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