• MT VOID, 01/28/22 -- Vol. 40, No. 31, Whole Number 2208

    From evelynchimelisleeper@gmail.com@21:1/5 to All on Sun Jan 30 06:55:42 2022
    THE MT VOID
    Mt. Holz Science Fiction Society
    01/28/22 -- Vol. 40, No. 31, Whole Number 2208

    Co-Editor: Mark Leeper, mleeper@optonline.net
    Co-Editor: Evelyn Leeper, eleeper@optonline.net
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    Topics:
    MT VOID Typeface (comments by Evelyn C. Leeper)
    Science Fiction (and Other) Discussion Groups, Films,
    Lectures, etc. (NJ)
    My Picks for Turner Classic Movies in February (comments
    by Mark R. Leeper)
    Online Film Critics Society Annual Movie Awards
    Mini Reviews by Evelyn, Part 1 (THE COLONY, FREE GUY,
    SYNCHRONIC) (film reviews by Evelyn C. Leeper)
    TREKNOMICS: THE ECONOMICS OF STAR TREK by Manu Saadia
    (a book review in the form of an extended essay
    by Dale Skran) (part 1)
    "Enoch Soames" (letters of comment by Paul Dormer
    and Dorothy J. Heydt)
    Bibles (letters of comment by Gary McGath, Paul Dormer,
    and John Kerr-Mudd)
    This Week's Reading (THE DOOR INTO SUMMER) (book and film
    comments by Evelyn C. Leeper)

    ===================================================================

    TOPIC: MT VOID Typeface (comments by Evelyn C. Leeper)

    Someone has reported that the MT VOID was now arriving in a
    typeface that was very hard to read on his iPad. We upgraded our
    Mac OS, which meant we upgraded our MS Word, which now has a really
    thin-line typeface as its default. I hadn't realized it carried
    over to email we sent, though. I will try a different method of
    sending mail to try to improve the typeface. [-ecl]

    ===================================================================

    TOPIC: Science Fiction (and Other) Discussion Groups, Films,
    Lectures, etc. (NJ)

    Alas, both groups have returned to Zoom meetings, due in part to
    COVID, and in part to unpredictable weather. Movies for the
    Middletown meeting will be ones people can watch on YouTube,
    archive.org, or other free services.

    February 3 (MTPL), 7PM: Black History Month: FIVE (1951)
    prose poem: "The Creation" (1927) by James Weldon Johnson
    <https://poets.org/poem/creation>
    February 24 (MTPL), 7PM: THE TIME MACHINE by H. G. Wells
    March 3 UNDER THE SKIN (2014) & novel by Michel Faber
    <https://tinyurl.com/UnderSkin-Faber>

    ===================================================================

    TOPIC: My Picks for Turner Classic Movies in February (comments by
    Mark R. Leeper)

    One of the best films of men and the sea is Peter Ustinov's 1962
    adaption of Herman Melville's BILLY BUDD. Now note I am not saying
    the book is all that good. But the film made from the book is
    actually good. Terence Stamp is an American seaman impressed
    aboard a British warship during the Napoleonic wars. Melville goes
    a little overboard (not literally) to make Billy the so-called
    "handsome sailor," a wonderful person loved by all on the crew on
    the boat. That is all, that is but for a sadistic Master at Arms.
    Soon, quite innocently, Billy becomes embroiled in a conflict
    between duty and justice.

    [Just as Melville's MOBY-DICK was based on the true story of the
    whaleship "Essex", so BILLY BUDD was based on the true story of
    the mutiny at (don't laugh) Spithead in 1797, as well as a
    subsequent mutiny in 1842 involving a cousin of Melville's as
    arbitrator in the trial of two midshipmen on the U.S.S. Somers.]

    [BILLY BUDD, February 4, 11:30AM]

    Also, for those of you watching the Masterpiece Theatre of
    AROUND THE WORLD IN EIGHTY DAYS, TCM is running the 1956 movie:
    02/18/2022 12:00 PM Around the World in 80 Days (1956)

    [-mrl]

    ===================================================================

    TOPIC: Online Film Critics Society Annual Movie Awards

    BEST PICTURE - THE POWER OF THE DOG
    BEST ANIMATED FEATURE - THE MITCHELLS VS. THE MACHINES
    BEST DIRECTOR - Jane Campion (THE POWER OF THE DOG)
    BEST ACTOR - Benedict Cumberbatch (THE POWER OF THE DOG)
    BEST ACTRESS - Olivia Colman (THE LOST DAUGHTER)
    BEST SUPPORTING ACTOR - Kodi Smit-McPhee (THE POWER OF THE DOG)
    BEST SUPPORTING ACTRESS - Kirsten Dunst (THE POWER OF THE DOG)
    BEST ORIGINAL SCREENPLAY - PIG
    BEST ADAPTED SCREENPLAY - THE POWER OF THE DOG
    BEST FILM EDITING - THE POWER OF THE DOG
    BEST CINEMATOGRAPHY - THE POWER OF THE DOG
    BEST ORIGINAL SCORE - THE POWER OF THE DOG
    BEST PRODUCTION DESIGN - THE FRENCH DISPATCH
    BEST COSTUME DESIGN - DUNE
    BEST VISUAL EFFECTS: DUNE
    BEST DEBUT FEATURE - Maggie Gyllenhaal, THE LOST DAUGHTER
    BEST FILM NOT IN THE ENGLISH LANGUAGE - DRIVE MY CAR
    BEST DOCUMENTARY FEATURE - SUMMER OF SOUL (...OR, WHEN THE
    REVOLUTION COULD NOT BE TELEVISED)

    TECHNICAL ACHIEVEMENT AWARDS:
    - DUNE for Sound Design
    - IN THE HEIGHTS for Choreography
    - MEMORIA for Sound Design
    - NO TIME TO DIE for Stunt Coordination
    - WEST SIDE STORY for Choreography

    BEST NON-US RELEASE
    - 1970 (Poland)
    - BANK JOB (United Kingdom)
    - BENEDICTION (United Kingdom)
    - THE GIRL AND THE SPIDER (Switzerland)
    - THE MEDIUM (Thailand)
    - NINJABABY (Norway)
    - PETITE MAMAN (France)
    - PLEASURE (Sweden)
    - THE TSUGUA DIARIES (Portugal)
    - VENGEANCE IS MINE, ALL OTHERS PAY CASH (Indonesia)

    LIFETIME ACHIEVEMENT AWARDS:
    - John Carpenter
    - Tony Leung Chiu-Wai
    - Sheila Nevins
    - Paul Schrader
    - John Williams

    SPECIAL ACHIEVEMENT AWARDS:

    IATSE Workers, for bringing attention to labor issues in the film
    industry and fighting for better standards.

    Turner Classic Movies (TCM) for providing worldwide access to
    classic films, including silent movies.

    The Association of Moving Image Archivists (AMIA) is an important
    non-profit organization devoted to the preservation of film.

    Founded is 1997 by film critic Harvey Karten, OFCS is a
    professional association that comprises of online film critics,
    film journalists, historians and scholars from around the world.
    The membership is dedicated to its mission of furthering the growth
    of the informed film audience by utilizing the Internet as a
    valuable source of news and commentary. OFCS provides a forum for
    its members to communicate and discuss ideas about journalism and
    cinema and encourage a high standard of journalism across online
    media platforms.

    [Mark is a member of the OFCS.]

    ===================================================================

    TOPIC: Mini Reviews by Evelyn, Part 1 (film reviews by Evelyn
    C. Leeper)

    THE COLONY: THE COLONY is a typical post-apocalypse story, the
    apocalypse being radical climate change which seems to have left
    the earth as a giant mud flat (and oceans, whose tides regularly
    wash over these flats. The rich left the earth, but have
    discovered they are now infertile because of their and so want to
    return to Earth. But Earth is populated by your usual bands of
    survivors, who speak some incomprehensible language that has
    fourteen words for water. (How much time has passed anyway? If
    the rich spaceship people became infertile because of conditions
    at Kepler-209, it's either and still managed to send a ship back
    to Earth before the colony died off, they must have some sort of
    interstellar travel at near light speed, but when was that
    developed? This is a bleak film, set in a gray, misty world, and
    imminently skippable.

    Released theatrically 08/27/21; available on Netflix streaming.

    Film Credits:
    <https://www.imdb.com/title/tt6506264/reference>

    What others are saying:
    <https://www.rottentomatoes.com/m/the_colony_2021>

    FREE GUY: FREE GUY seems to crib a lot from STRANGER THAN
    FICTION, and I'm sure if I knew more about video games it would be
    clearer what is going on. I mean, I understand NPCs, but what are
    skins? It's got some clever ideas particular to video games, and
    even with my inexperience with video games it was enjoyable
    enough, if not up to many of the "this is not the real world"
    movies.

    Released 08/13/21; available on DVD from Netflix.

    Film Credits:
    <https://www.imdb.com/title/tt6264654/reference>

    What others are saying:
    <https://www.rottentomatoes.com/m/free_guy>

    SYNCHRONIC: Netflix has been running a lot of "new" science
    fiction films. (Well, new to me, anyway.) THE DOOR INTO SUMMER,
    THE COLONY, THE HOUSE, FREE GUY, and now SYNCHRONIC. SYNCHRONIC
    assumes a drug that has strange effects, not just hallucinations,
    but actual changes to reality, and in specific, time perceptions.
    It's a clever idea, and watching the characters figure out the
    rules is interesting, but there is too much else dragging down
    the film to make it recommendable.

    Released 10/22/20; available on Netflix streaming.

    Film Credits:
    <https://www.imdb.com/title/tt9016974/reference>

    What others are saying:
    <https://www.rottentomatoes.com/m/synchronic>

    [-ecl]

    ===================================================================

    TOPIC: TREKNOMICS: THE ECONOMICS OF STAR TREK by Manu Saadia (a
    book review in the form of an extended essay by Dale Skran)
    (part 1)

    [This is the first part of a review of TREKNOMICS: THE ECONOMICS OF
    STAR TREK.]

    A fundamental flaw in TREKNOMICS: THE ECONOMICS OF STAR TREK by
    Manu Saadia (published in 2016) is that it seems more a collection
    of essays that are somewhat related than an organized argument or
    analysis. Sloppy thinking abounds, although there are points to
    agree with as well.

    As an example of sloppy thinking, we are asked to believe that the
    "replicator" is some kind of matter printer, and that the
    Enterprise contains reservoirs of various elements somewhere. This
    is virtually impossible to credit, especially given the apparent
    consensus that the replicator is just a variant of the transporter,
    as is the holodeck. And surely the transporter is not a "matter
    printer"--if it was, how does the matter get to the surface of a
    distant planet?

    No--the replicator is pure magic--energy is converted to
    arbitrarily complex matter. The author is correct that this takes
    a lot of power--and a lot of data. The author seems to be making
    the case for the replicator being a "matter printer" since we are
    actually building "matter printers" right now, with some success,
    and more likely to follow.

    The author does have a good point with regard to Star Trek--the
    replicator does not appear until "Next Generation", yet money is
    already obsolete in "Original Trek". Thus, the replicator per se
    was not needed to create the abundance that is everywhere in Star
    Trek.

    Another example of sloppy thinking is that the author never
    considers who might, say, clean the toilets, in the Trek universe.
    We never see any cleaning robots or uplifted animal servants, so
    someone must be doing this. Does everything clean itself???

    The author paints a picture of a utopian future where everyone is
    well-off, money does not exist, and people are motivated to excel
    only for reputational glory. This may well work for the most
    talented 1% who could plausibly participate and succeed in a
    never-ending scientific and artistic competition, but what of the
    other 99%? The author, a well-educated writer, may live a
    sufficiently elevated life that he believes that he and his friends
    would function well in the Trek utopia, but what of the great mass
    of humanity with average and below average abilities? Will they
    engage in constructive artistic, musical, and scientific activity?
    Or more likely will we see the "Brave New World" with most of the
    population high on "soma" and engaged in debasing entertainments?

    The author appears to believe many will be engaged in the creation
    of various arts and crafts, but Trek never addresses any issues
    related to intellectual property. If I purchase some beautiful
    hand-crafted glass, can I replicate it and give it to all my
    friends, claiming that I created it? Can I put the "pattern" for
    this item on the Net so anyone replicate their own even if this is
    not the desire of the creator of the item? Or is there a
    prohibition on replicating hand-crafted items? Are replicated
    items marked "replicated" and there is no status in having
    "replicated" items? Can I replicate the original Mona Lisa? What
    is the status of an original in a world of perfect copies? We are
    currently heavily engaged in these issues on the Internet right
    now, but via the lens of copyright, patent, and trade mark law,
    none of which appear to exist in the Trek future.

    Another issue Trek does not address is what are called "Network
    Effects." Basically, once everyone has a replicator, and if there
    is no protection for Intellectual Property, everyone can copy
    anything. But the "best" creators will, just as on the Internet,
    come to dominate, leaving little room for the great majority of
    those creating art/crafts. Everyone may be rich in material goods,
    but only a few will have "Galactic Scale" reputations.

    The author--and Trek itself--does not concern itself with personal
    property such as a home. Most Star Fleet officers/crew roam the
    galaxy, and appear to have no permanent abodes. Picard's family
    owns a vineyard, and presumably inheritance laws still work or it
    would no longer be in the Picard family. But if the family does
    not want it anymore, how is it transferred to someone else? Can it
    only be given away? Perhaps more important, Trek does not say
    anything about how prime real estate is allocated. A committee of
    savants that give nice houses to the "worthy?" This sounds like
    the "Party" in Soviet Russia passing out the "goodies." Who is
    allowed to build a new house? Since you can't replicate an entire
    house, who builds it, given that you can't pay anyone to work on it?

    Although Trek is silent on how access to living space is managed,
    no matter how it is handled there will always be a scarcity of
    great views on the ocean, etc. One "pressure release" for Trek
    World is colonies on new worlds, which no doubt offers a plethora
    of unique vistas for the taking, with a minimum of competition. In
    fact, a desire for a really nice, big house with a great view may
    be one of the major motivations to move your family to a remote
    colony. One advantage of replicators, fusion, etc. is that living
    in a remote colony is not going to be materially different than
    living in San Francisco, although at first social interactions will
    be limited. What you will not get on any official Federation
    colony is the opportunity to pursue your own vision of a better
    society, and especially to pursue a forbidden technology. For that
    you need to found a secret colony that the Federation does not know
    about. We see examples of such attempts now and then in
    Trek-world, but they always come to a bad end in just-so stories
    designed to show of the superiority of the Federation way of life.

    Yet another issue Trek does not address is the motivation for the
    accumulation of wealth. There is an assumption that if everyone
    has "more than enough" and a sure knowledge that their kids will as
    well, so there is no need to be concerned about providing for your
    descendants, and further there is universal free health and elder
    care of very high quality, this seems to remove most motivations to
    accumulate wealth. Indeed, in this circumstance, the great bulk of
    humanity would be content to engage in idle leisure low-key hobbies.

    However, for a limited number of people, the purpose of wealth is
    the accomplishment of goals. Elon Musk, the richest person in the
    world right now, has wealth beyond dreams of avarice. And yet he
    owns no yachts, works 100-hour weeks, lives in a $50K "tiny house"
    or sleeps on a cot in one of his many factories, and is selling all
    his mansions. Musk has enough money to buy anything that can be
    bought, but what he wants--a city on Mars, civilization running on
    solar energy, a human response to artificial intelligence--are not
    luxury items that can be purchased at some exclusive department
    store. For him money is just the lever he uses to move the world,
    and as such he can never have enough money to create the
    transformations he envisions.

    The mere existence of Musk is antithetical to the Trek utopia,
    which is apparently run by a series of university committees and
    similar structures that engage in endless, tedious debate. Once
    base material needs are met, the accumulation of money becomes
    related to the accomplishment of goals. Personally, I like Musk's
    goals, but society should neither privilege his goals over those
    of, say, George Soros, nor prevent him and his allies from pursuing
    those goals. Yet in the Trek universe the Musk equivalent--Dr.
    Noonian Soong--must work in a secret lab to build an android.

    We need only compare what Musk has accomplished with regard to
    space to what the government-run space program has accomplished
    (which is more or less what you would get in the Trek "utopia"), to
    see a vast difference in vision and achievement. A world with both
    approaches is demonstrably better than one that excludes the other.
    This is why the Trek "utopia" while seeming wonderful is really a
    kind of nightmare, similar to Jack Williamson's "With Folded
    Hands." In Trek world, all resource allocation is via committee.
    Science has a very poor record of responding to new theories with
    open arms. Consider plate tectonics as an example. Resource
    allocation by committee inevitably leads to group-think and
    stagnation, as well as lots of wasted time persuading others you
    are right.

    The author repeats the commonplace error of describing the Star
    Trek universe has having very advanced, and rapidly advancing
    technology. Nothing could be further from the truth. The Star
    Trek universe features a rather limited number of technologies, and
    a glacial pace of technological advancement outside certain limited
    areas. The core technologies Trek has that we don't have are:

    -- Some source of essentially unlimited, safe, cheap energy,
    variously derived from "dilithim crystals" or somehow involving
    antimatter Fusion is reliable and common, but appears to be
    used more like a "backup generator" that is not the main source
    of power. Fusion is used to drive the "impulse" engines of the
    Enterprise.
    -- Warp Drive
    -- The "transporter", and derivative technologies, including the
    replicator and the holodeck
    -- The tractor beam
    -- Various types of force shields
    -- Sub-space communications
    -- Cloaking devices
    -- The Universal Translator

    That's about it. The "transporter" is a gimmick the writers
    invented to speed up storytelling, and neither it, nor the related
    replicator or holodeck represent technologies that are ever likely
    to exist in the form described in Star Trek. Warp Drive and
    sub-space communication are ancient McGuffins of SciFi that allow
    the writer to tell an exciting story about interstellar adventure,
    but are only marginally more likely to be possible than the
    "transporter." The magical "dilithium crystals" that act as
    matter/anti-matter catalysts are just that--magic that does not
    exist in the real world.

    Controlled fusion is very likely possible, and success now seems
    more like ten years away rather than the traditional thirty-year
    timeline. Creating anti-matter is more a compact energy storage
    method than a power source, but it may eventually be a useful
    technology once we have sufficient cheap energy to manufacture it.
    The same is true of "force shields." We may well someday create
    powerful magnetic shields to protect space craft and free space
    settlements from radiation, but this kind of technology seems less
    than relevant to everyday life.

    Pretty much all the other technology shown in Star
    Trek--tricorders, communicators, computers, androids, medical
    technology, universal translators, and even cloaking devices--are
    actually much less advanced that what we might reasonably expect to
    have in the 22nd century ("Star Trek: Enterprise") and certainly by
    the 24th century ("Star Trek: Picard"). The Star Trek universe
    posits the "Eugenics Wars" in the 1990s which led to a nuclear war
    lasting from 2026 to 2053. Even granting the Earth was
    substantially devastated in 21st century, Trek technology seems to
    have advanced to a remarkably small degree over what we actually
    have in 2022. Of course, we didn't spend the 1990s fighting Kahn
    Noonian Soong.

    The only way the Star Trek future makes any sense is if it is
    understood not as the result of rapid technological progress, but
    instead what society might look like if science is grossly
    constrained to avoid doing anything that might change human nature
    or the basis of human civilization. Secret agencies like Section
    31 in "Star Trek: Deep Space Nine" must work behind the scenes to
    ensure that progress moves very slowly or not at all.

    Additionally, with no possibility of any personal gain from your
    efforts, productivity is likely greatly reduced from what it would
    otherwise be. I'll come back to this in more detail, but I worked
    for seventeen years at Bell Labs, perhaps a reasonable
    approximation of the productivity the Federation might achieve in
    its various science institutes--thousands of Ph.D.s paid well
    enough and treated well enough and given enough freedom to be one
    of the most productive R&D organizations the Earth has ever seen.
    And yet when I went to work for a series of startups, I found the
    them to be at least 10x more productive per person, and likely much
    more than that. In large part this was due to the fact that
    everyone at the company stood to make a large sum of money if the
    products succeeded in the market, while at Bell Labs you could win
    the Nobel prize and change the entire world while making only
    modestly more than the other employees. [-dls]

    [This essay will conclude in the next issue of the MT VOID.]

    ===================================================================

    TOPIC: "Enoch Soames" (letters of comment by Paul Dormer and
    Dorothy J. Heydt)

    In response to Evelyn's comments on "Enoch Soames" in the 01/21/22
    issue of the MT VOID, Paul Dormer writes:

    [Evelyn quotes the devil as saying,] "You wish to be in the
    reading-room just as it will be on the afternoon of June 3, 1997?"

    I have a memory of a BBC radio programme back in 1997 where someone
    went to the British Museum on that date to see if Soames appeared.
    (He didn't.) [-pd]

    Dorothy J. Heydt replies:

    Different universe, obviously. [-djh]

    ===================================================================

    TOPIC: Bibles (letters of comment by Gary McGath, Paul Dormer, and
    John Kerr-Mudd)

    In response to Jim Susky's comments on Bibles in the 01/21/22 issue
    of the MT VOID, Gary McGrath writes:

    My go-to Bible is the New Jerusalem Bible. It's in readable modern
    English, and it includes books which the Catholics accept but the
    Protestants don't.

    I'm an atheist, so I don't have a doctrinal preference among
    Bibles. The book is on my shelf for research or curiosity. [-gmg]

    Paul Dormer responds:

    Same here. I think the copy I have was a special offer from the
    Book of the Month Club in the Eighties. [-pd]

    John Kerr-Mudd writes:

    Feh, shudda nicked one from a hotel (do the Gideons still supply
    them?). [-jkm]

    Paul Dormer replies:

    A few years ago, I stayed in the George Hotel in Huddersfield which
    was where the Rugby League as formed in 1895. There was a history
    of Rugby League in each room. [-pd]

    ===================================================================

    TOPIC: This Week's Reading (book and film comments by Evelyn
    C. Leeper)

    The film THE DOOR INTO SUMMER is a Japanese adaptation of Robert A.
    Heinlein's novel. One major change is that the story has been
    moved to Japan and updated. (Heinlein got some stuff about 1970
    right in his 1956 novel, but (not surprisingly) a lot wrong, and
    the movie time shifts to avoid this.) The other major change--and
    quite a good one, in my opinion--is that the movie doesn't have any
    of Heinlein's long commentaries on cats, or (more importantly) any
    of his blatant lechery, in particular the "betrothal" between an
    adult male and a girl of eleven. (That she initiates it and the
    marriage takes place when she is an adult does not really lessen
    the off-putting nature of the whole exchange.) It also drops the
    nudist camp (which was good for one twist in the book, but then
    served no further purpose).

    Most of the rest of the film is (as far as I could tell) faithful
    to the novel. Another criticism I have of the novel, though, that
    is carried through to the film, is that there are too many
    convenient inventions. I could accept a lot of robots and AI
    (running on vacuum tubes, no less!), but there's null-gravity and
    time travel as well, which is pushing it. I am reminded of the
    "Black Star" series by John W. Campbell, Jr., in which the three
    main characters just whip up whatever invention or material they
    happen to need at the time. When I read that I thought it was
    pretty cool. I was twelve at the time.

    The cold sleep companies in the book THE DOOR INTO SUMMER promote
    the idea that if you go into cold sleep for thirty years, 5%
    compound interest will make you rich, giving you $4 for every
    original dollar you deposit. This assumes there is no inflation,
    but inflation over that period in our world (1970-2000) meant that
    you would have needed about $4.50 for the buying power of that
    original dollar. Heinlein does acknowledge the existence of
    inflation, but sort of hand-waves around it.

    At any rate, the movie is definitely recommended for Heinlein fans,
    and mildly recommended for others. [-ecl]

    ===================================================================

    Mark Leeper
    mleeper@optonline.net


    ... Thus mathematics may be defined as the subject
    in which we never know what we are talking about,
    nor whether what we are saying is true.
    --Bertrand Russell

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
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  • From Paul Dormer@21:1/5 to evelynchimelisleeper@gmail.com on Sun Jan 30 15:42:00 2022
    In article <1a3117e3-072b-4569-80bd-84b3b8d4e2cfn@googlegroups.com>, evelynchimelisleeper@gmail.com () wrote:


    One of the best films of men and the sea is Peter Ustinov's 1962
    adaption of Herman Melville's BILLY BUDD. Now note I am not saying
    the book is all that good. But the film made from the book is
    actually good.

    I only know the Britten operatic version, written for the Festival of
    Britain in 1951. Still often performed. Both Britten and E.M Forster,
    the librettist, were gay but I'm told they toned down the homo-erotic
    elements from the novella.

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
    * Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)
  • From Gary McGath@21:1/5 to eleeper@optonline.net on Sun Jan 30 20:48:58 2022
    On 1/30/22 9:55 AM, eleeper@optonline.net wrote:
    TOPIC: TREKNOMICS: THE ECONOMICS OF STAR TREK by Manu Saadia (a book
    review in the form of an extended essay by Dale Skran) (part 1)

    [This is the first part of a review of TREKNOMICS: THE ECONOMICS OF
    STAR TREK.]

    A fundamental flaw in TREKNOMICS: THE ECONOMICS OF STAR TREK by Manu
    Saadia (published in 2016) is that it seems more a collection of
    essays that are somewhat related than an organized argument or
    analysis. Sloppy thinking abounds, although there are points to
    agree with as well.

    The moneyless economy of Star Trek is so incoherently presented in the
    shows that no one can really make sense of it.

    --
    Gary McGath http://www.mcgath.com

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
    * Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)
  • From Dorothy J Heydt@21:1/5 to eleeper@optonline.net on Mon Jan 31 02:49:31 2022
    In article <1a3117e3-072b-4569-80bd-84b3b8d4e2cfn@googlegroups.com>, eleeper@optonline.net <evelynchimelisleeper@gmail.com> wrote:

    FREE GUY: FREE GUY seems to crib a lot from STRANGER THAN
    FICTION, and I'm sure if I knew more about video games it would be
    clearer what is going on. I mean, I understand NPCs, but what are
    skins?

    A skin, in an online RPG, is a character's appearance, whether
    face, body shape, costume, or some or all of the above.

    The game I play, Lord of the Rings Online, has a choice between
    two faces per species/gender. I've looked at the choices of
    faces available to many of my characters, and I can't for the
    life of me tell the diffeence, but many players vehemently assert
    that they can.

    Player characters can also go to a barber NPC and change their
    hairstile.

    Finally, there are lots and lots of clothing choices. A
    character can be equipped with the highest-level armor or
    clothing they can wear, with more armor value and other buffs;
    but they can also wear "cosmetic" armor or clothing that will be
    seen by other players. This also works for weaponry.

    It's got some clever ideas particular to video games, and
    even with my inexperience with video games it was enjoyable
    enough, if not up to many of the "this is not the real world"
    movies.

    I liked it a lot. My daughter warned me that a lot of the
    magicalish weaponry would be borrowed from other properties that
    Disney has absorbed, and so it was.

    --
    Dorothy J. Heydt
    Vallejo, California
    djheydt at gmail dot com
    Www.kithrup.com/~djheydt/

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
    * Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)
  • From Tim Merrigan@21:1/5 to garym@REMOVEmcgathREMOVE.com on Mon Jan 31 03:21:29 2022
    On Sun, 30 Jan 2022 20:48:58 -0500, Gary McGath
    <garym@REMOVEmcgathREMOVE.com> wrote:

    On 1/30/22 9:55 AM, eleeper@optonline.net wrote:
    TOPIC: TREKNOMICS: THE ECONOMICS OF STAR TREK by Manu Saadia (a book
    review in the form of an extended essay by Dale Skran) (part 1)

    [This is the first part of a review of TREKNOMICS: THE ECONOMICS OF
    STAR TREK.]

    A fundamental flaw in TREKNOMICS: THE ECONOMICS OF STAR TREK by Manu
    Saadia (published in 2016) is that it seems more a collection of
    essays that are somewhat related than an organized argument or
    analysis. Sloppy thinking abounds, although there are points to
    agree with as well.

    The moneyless economy of Star Trek is so incoherently presented in the
    shows that no one can really make sense of it.

    I suspect that the existence of, and relatively easy access to, matter replication, and short distance teleportation (from high orbit to a
    planetary surface, so, at least tens, if not hundreds, of miles, and a transporter transmitter/receiver is nice to have, but not necessary)
    would have major effect on the economy.
    --

    Qualified immunity = virtual impunity.

    Tim Merrigan

    --
    This email has been checked for viruses by AVG.
    https://www.avg.com

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
    * Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)
  • From Scott Dorsey@21:1/5 to garym@REMOVEmcgathREMOVE.com on Mon Jan 31 16:46:13 2022
    Gary McGath <garym@REMOVEmcgathREMOVE.com> wrote:

    The moneyless economy of Star Trek is so incoherently presented in the
    shows that no one can really make sense of it.

    "Oh, my parents don't use money. They have credit cards!"
    -- My friend's niece
    --
    "C'est un Nagra. C'est suisse, et tres, tres precis."

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
    * Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)
  • From Alan Woodford@21:1/5 to Paul Dormer on Tue Feb 1 12:07:52 2022
    On Tue, 1 Feb 2022 11:53 +0000 (GMT Standard Time), prd@pauldormer.cix.co.uk (Paul Dormer) wrote:

    In article <st93ol$ord$1@panix2.panix.com>, kludge@panix.com (Scott
    Dorsey) wrote:


    "Oh, my parents don't use money. They have credit cards!"
    -- My friend's niece

    One of the affects of the pandemic in the last couple of years appears to
    be the abandoning of cash in favour of cards (debit as well as credit).
    The only cash I've paid last year was the barber and the window cleaner.
    Even a cheese vendor on a stall in the high street was taking cards.

    I've used a little bit more cash than that, but only because a lot of the
    local car parks haven't updated their ticket machines yet :-)

    Mind you, I'd have been happier if one of the ticket machines I had to use out in the country last year -hadn't- been updated...

    The car park was in a mobile phone not-spot, and it was taking a couple of minutes per person to actually connect and pay - imagine how happy the queue was!

    Alan Woodford

    The Greying Lensman

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
    * Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)
  • From Paul Dormer@21:1/5 to Dorsey on Tue Feb 1 11:53:00 2022
    In article <st93ol$ord$1@panix2.panix.com>, kludge@panix.com (Scott
    Dorsey) wrote:


    "Oh, my parents don't use money. They have credit cards!"
    -- My friend's niece

    One of the affects of the pandemic in the last couple of years appears to
    be the abandoning of cash in favour of cards (debit as well as credit).
    The only cash I've paid last year was the barber and the window cleaner.
    Even a cheese vendor on a stall in the high street was taking cards.

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
    * Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)
  • From Paul Dormer@21:1/5 to Alan Woodford on Tue Feb 1 12:50:00 2022
    In article <cc8ivg5ucjv8irntf488msgdkpu9ermnb3@4ax.com>,
    alan@thewoodfords.uk (Alan Woodford) wrote:


    The car park was in a mobile phone not-spot, and it was taking a couple
    of
    minutes per person to actually connect and pay - imagine how happy
    the queue was!

    The smartphone I bought a couple of years ago turns out can't be used for contactless payment.

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
    * Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)
  • From Alan Woodford@21:1/5 to Paul Dormer on Tue Feb 1 13:43:13 2022
    On Tue, 1 Feb 2022 12:50 +0000 (GMT Standard Time), prd@pauldormer.cix.co.uk (Paul Dormer) wrote:

    In article <cc8ivg5ucjv8irntf488msgdkpu9ermnb3@4ax.com>,
    alan@thewoodfords.uk (Alan Woodford) wrote:


    The car park was in a mobile phone not-spot, and it was taking a couple
    of
    minutes per person to actually connect and pay - imagine how happy
    the queue was!

    The smartphone I bought a couple of years ago turns out can't be used for >contactless payment.

    This was the ticket machine not able to phone home - most people (including
    me) were trying to use cards rather than phones for the payment.

    Of course, in the good old days, the machine would have had a coin slot, but
    it is presumably cheaper not to have to empty the machine.

    Alan Woodford

    The Greying Lensman

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
    * Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)
  • From Paul Dormer@21:1/5 to Alan Woodford on Tue Feb 1 16:27:00 2022
    In article <cvdivglijf1ui0pr97hgo952pqi7cbv8lk@4ax.com>,
    alan@thewoodfords.uk (Alan Woodford) wrote:


    This was the ticket machine not able to phone home - most people
    (including me) were trying to use cards rather than phones for the
    payment.

    Back last summer my sister and her son visited me, the first time I'd
    seen them for eighteen months (and the first time since my stay in
    hospital). She wanted to go to Guildford Cathedral for lunch as they
    have a small cafe. When it came to time to pay, she got out her phone
    and waved it over the terminal and she'd paid.

    I want one of those, I thought. She had an iPhone which uses Applepay.
    My phone is an Android but there's a Googlepay in the store on it so I installed it. Only to get the message that my phone doesn't support contactless payment. Aargh!

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
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  • From Steve Coltrin@21:1/5 to Paul Dormer on Tue Feb 1 09:31:33 2022
    begin fnord
    prd@pauldormer.cix.co.uk (Paul Dormer) writes:

    One of the affects of the pandemic in the last couple of years appears to
    be the abandoning of cash in favour of cards (debit as well as credit).
    The only cash I've paid last year was the barber and the window cleaner.
    Even a cheese vendor on a stall in the high street was taking cards.

    Even before the plague I'd gotten to the point where I only used cash
    for the vending machine at work and road snacks at gas stations. Almost everywhere I go I can pay with my watch, and the places I can't I look
    for replacements where I can. (Lowe's, this meant you.)

    That said, in the past two years I have touched cash *once*, and only
    because one of my music teachers was having problems with their bank and
    asked to be paid in folding money that month.

    --
    Steve Coltrin spcoltri@omcl.org Google Groups killfiled here
    "A group known as the League of Human Dignity helped arrange for Deuel
    to be driven to a local livestock scale, where he could be weighed."
    - Associated Press

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
    * Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)
  • From evelynchimelisleeper@gmail.com@21:1/5 to Steve Coltrin on Tue Feb 1 08:35:01 2022
    On Tuesday, February 1, 2022 at 11:31:41 AM UTC-5, Steve Coltrin wrote:
    begin fnord
    p...@pauldormer.cix.co.uk (Paul Dormer) writes:

    One of the affects of the pandemic in the last couple of years appears to be the abandoning of cash in favour of cards (debit as well as credit).
    The only cash I've paid last year was the barber and the window cleaner. Even a cheese vendor on a stall in the high street was taking cards.
    Even before the plague I'd gotten to the point where I only used cash
    for the vending machine at work and road snacks at gas stations. Almost everywhere I go I can pay with my watch, and the places I can't I look
    for replacements where I can. (Lowe's, this meant you.)

    That said, in the past two years I have touched cash *once*, and only
    because one of my music teachers was having problems with their bank and asked to be paid in folding money that month.

    Around here (e.g., in the US), restaurants have started charging a credit card fee of 2%-4%, so a lot of people are going back to cash.

    --
    Evelyn C. Leeper

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
    * Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)
  • From Paul Dormer@21:1/5 to evelynchimelisleeper@gmail.com on Tue Feb 1 17:14:00 2022
    In article <ece14622-ceea-4868-89f7-1da9bfc0a926n@googlegroups.com>, evelynchimelisleeper@gmail.com () wrote:


    Around here (e.g., in the US), restaurants have started charging a
    credit card fee of 2%-4%, so a lot of people are going back to cash.

    How about debit cards?

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
    * Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)
  • From Peter Trei@21:1/5 to eleeper@optonline.net on Tue Feb 1 11:06:20 2022
    On Tuesday, February 1, 2022 at 11:35:02 AM UTC-5, eleeper@optonline.net wrote:
    On Tuesday, February 1, 2022 at 11:31:41 AM UTC-5, Steve Coltrin wrote:
    begin fnord
    p...@pauldormer.cix.co.uk (Paul Dormer) writes:

    One of the affects of the pandemic in the last couple of years appears to be the abandoning of cash in favour of cards (debit as well as credit). The only cash I've paid last year was the barber and the window cleaner. Even a cheese vendor on a stall in the high street was taking cards.
    Even before the plague I'd gotten to the point where I only used cash
    for the vending machine at work and road snacks at gas stations. Almost everywhere I go I can pay with my watch, and the places I can't I look
    for replacements where I can. (Lowe's, this meant you.)

    That said, in the past two years I have touched cash *once*, and only because one of my music teachers was having problems with their bank and asked to be paid in folding money that month.
    Around here (e.g., in the US), restaurants have started charging a credit card
    fee of 2%-4%, so a lot of people are going back to cash.

    I"ll have to keep a lookout for that.

    The credit card companies come down *hard* on retailers who do that.

    OTOH, I have seem some gas stations offer 2-3% discounts for cash.

    pt

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
    * Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)
  • From rkshullat@rosettacondot.com@21:1/5 to Steve Coltrin on Tue Feb 1 20:16:28 2022
    Steve Coltrin <spcoltri@omcl.org> wrote:
    begin fnord
    prd@pauldormer.cix.co.uk (Paul Dormer) writes:

    One of the affects of the pandemic in the last couple of years appears to
    be the abandoning of cash in favour of cards (debit as well as credit).
    The only cash I've paid last year was the barber and the window cleaner.
    Even a cheese vendor on a stall in the high street was taking cards.

    Even before the plague I'd gotten to the point where I only used cash
    for the vending machine at work and road snacks at gas stations. Almost everywhere I go I can pay with my watch, and the places I can't I look
    for replacements where I can. (Lowe's, this meant you.)

    That said, in the past two years I have touched cash *once*, and only
    because one of my music teachers was having problems with their bank and asked to be paid in folding money that month.

    I think the only time I've used cash since the pandemic started was at the minor emergency clinic back before Thanksgiving. I went in because I thought
    I had broken my ankle (I had, thoroughly) and their credit/debit processing
    was down. Fortunately there was a pharmacy next door with an ATM.

    Robert
    --
    Robert K. Shull Email: rkshull at rosettacon dot com

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
    * Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)
  • From Tim Merrigan@21:1/5 to alan@thewoodfords.uk on Tue Feb 1 13:32:45 2022
    On Tue, 01 Feb 2022 13:43:13 +0000, Alan Woodford
    <alan@thewoodfords.uk> wrote:

    On Tue, 1 Feb 2022 12:50 +0000 (GMT Standard Time), prd@pauldormer.cix.co.uk >(Paul Dormer) wrote:

    In article <cc8ivg5ucjv8irntf488msgdkpu9ermnb3@4ax.com>, >>alan@thewoodfords.uk (Alan Woodford) wrote:


    The car park was in a mobile phone not-spot, and it was taking a couple >>of
    minutes per person to actually connect and pay - imagine how happy
    the queue was!

    The smartphone I bought a couple of years ago turns out can't be used for >>contactless payment.

    This was the ticket machine not able to phone home - most people (including >me) were trying to use cards rather than phones for the payment.

    Of course, in the good old days, the machine would have had a coin slot, but >it is presumably cheaper not to have to empty the machine.

    Alan Woodford

    The Greying Lensman

    Less risk of the coin box being stolen, possibly doing serious damage
    to the kiosk.
    --

    Qualified immunity = virtual impunity.

    Tim Merrigan

    --
    This email has been checked for viruses by AVG.
    https://www.avg.com

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
    * Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)
  • From Steve Coltrin@21:1/5 to All on Tue Feb 1 14:19:15 2022
    begin fnord

    In article <ece14622-ceea-4868-89f7-1da9bfc0a926n@googlegroups.com>, evelynchimelisleeper@gmail.com () wrote:


    Around here (e.g., in the US), restaurants have started charging a
    credit card fee of 2%-4%, so a lot of people are going back to cash.

    In parts of Albuquerque, businesses have been robbed so often they are
    going cashless. It's that or close up shop.

    --
    Steve Coltrin spcoltri@omcl.org Google Groups killfiled here
    "A group known as the League of Human Dignity helped arrange for Deuel
    to be driven to a local livestock scale, where he could be weighed."
    - Associated Press

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
    * Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)
  • From Tim Merrigan@21:1/5 to petertrei@gmail.com on Tue Feb 1 13:38:27 2022
    On Tue, 1 Feb 2022 11:06:20 -0800 (PST), Peter Trei
    <petertrei@gmail.com> wrote:

    On Tuesday, February 1, 2022 at 11:35:02 AM UTC-5, eleeper@optonline.net wrote:
    On Tuesday, February 1, 2022 at 11:31:41 AM UTC-5, Steve Coltrin wrote:
    begin fnord
    p...@pauldormer.cix.co.uk (Paul Dormer) writes:

    One of the affects of the pandemic in the last couple of years appears to
    be the abandoning of cash in favour of cards (debit as well as credit). >> > > The only cash I've paid last year was the barber and the window cleaner. >> > > Even a cheese vendor on a stall in the high street was taking cards.
    Even before the plague I'd gotten to the point where I only used cash
    for the vending machine at work and road snacks at gas stations. Almost
    everywhere I go I can pay with my watch, and the places I can't I look
    for replacements where I can. (Lowe's, this meant you.)

    That said, in the past two years I have touched cash *once*, and only
    because one of my music teachers was having problems with their bank and >> > asked to be paid in folding money that month.
    Around here (e.g., in the US), restaurants have started charging a credit card
    fee of 2%-4%, so a lot of people are going back to cash.

    I"ll have to keep a lookout for that.

    The credit card companies come down *hard* on retailers who do that.

    OTOH, I have seem some gas stations offer 2-3% discounts for cash.

    pt

    I've seen some places offer a discount if you pay in change.
    Apparently there's been a shortage of U.S. coins for a couple years
    now.
    --

    Qualified immunity = virtual impunity.

    Tim Merrigan

    --
    This email has been checked for viruses by AVG.
    https://www.avg.com

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
    * Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)
  • From Gary McGath@21:1/5 to Steve Coltrin on Tue Feb 1 18:15:10 2022
    On 2/1/22 11:31 AM, Steve Coltrin wrote:

    Even before the plague I'd gotten to the point where I only used cash
    for the vending machine at work and road snacks at gas stations. Almost everywhere I go I can pay with my watch, and the places I can't I look
    for replacements where I can. (Lowe's, this meant you.)

    That said, in the past two years I have touched cash *once*, and only
    because one of my music teachers was having problems with their bank and asked to be paid in folding money that month.


    Yesterday I went grocery shopping and paid with a credit card. When I
    got to my car, I realized both I and the cashier had missed the gallon
    bottle of water that I'd put in the bottom of the cart. I went back in
    to pay the $0.75 for it, handing the cashier (a different one) three
    quarters.


    --
    Gary McGath http://www.mcgath.com

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
    * Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)
  • From evelynchimelisleeper@gmail.com@21:1/5 to Steve Coltrin on Tue Feb 1 17:39:35 2022
    On Tuesday, February 1, 2022 at 11:31:41 AM UTC-5, Steve Coltrin wrote:
    That said, in the past two years I have touched cash *once*, and only
    because one of my music teachers was having problems with their bank and asked to be paid in folding money that month.

    Well, I touch cash every time I go to Aldi, because it takes a quarter to unlock
    the shopping trolley. You get it back when you return the trolley, but sometimes
    the trolleys are swapped at the checkout, so it may not be your quarter.

    --
    Evelyn C. Leeper

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
    * Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)
  • From evelynchimelisleeper@gmail.com@21:1/5 to Paul Dormer on Tue Feb 1 17:40:58 2022
    On Tuesday, February 1, 2022 at 12:14:21 PM UTC-5, Paul Dormer wrote:
    In article <ece14622-ceea-4868...@googlegroups.com>,
    evelynchim...@gmail.com () wrote:


    Around here (e.g., in the US), restaurants have started charging a
    credit card fee of 2%-4%, so a lot of people are going back to cash.
    How about debit cards?

    Them too. Basically, they're passing on their fees these days.

    --
    Evelyn C. Leeper

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
    * Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)
  • From Gary R. Schmidt@21:1/5 to eleeper@optonline.net on Wed Feb 2 13:54:43 2022
    On 02/02/2022 12:39, eleeper@optonline.net wrote:
    On Tuesday, February 1, 2022 at 11:31:41 AM UTC-5, Steve Coltrin wrote:
    That said, in the past two years I have touched cash *once*, and only
    because one of my music teachers was having problems with their bank and
    asked to be paid in folding money that month.

    Well, I touch cash every time I go to Aldi, because it takes a quarter to unlock
    the shopping trolley. You get it back when you return the trolley, but sometimes
    the trolleys are swapped at the checkout, so it may not be your quarter.

    The ALDI's here in Oz sell AUD2.00 coin-sized tokens (for AUD1.60 or so)
    with nice clips that go onto your key ring.

    So we don't even have to touch cash to do that!

    Although I did touch cash at the pub last night, I'd ordered a meal for
    one of the skaters who was running late, and he repaid me in cash. :-)

    Cheers,
    Gary B-)

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
    * Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)
  • From Keith F. Lynch@21:1/5 to eleeper@optonline.net on Wed Feb 2 03:03:06 2022
    eleeper@optonline.net <evelynchimelisleeper@gmail.com> wrote:
    Paul Dormer wrote:
    evelynchimelisleeper@gmail.com () wrote:
    Around here (e.g., in the US), restaurants have started charging a
    credit card fee of 2%-4%, so a lot of people are going back to cash.

    How about debit cards?

    Them too. Basically, they're passing on their fees these days.

    Good. Cash customers shouldn't be forced to subsidize credit card users.
    --
    Keith F. Lynch - http://keithlynch.net/
    Please see http://keithlynch.net/email.html before emailing me.

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
    * Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)
  • From Dorothy J Heydt@21:1/5 to tppm@ca.rr.com on Wed Feb 2 04:39:19 2022
    In article <cu9jvghqs0a854qqvqjcjatt5g5ofs1074@4ax.com>,
    Tim Merrigan <tppm@ca.rr.com> wrote:
    On Tue, 1 Feb 2022 11:06:20 -0800 (PST), Peter Trei
    <petertrei@gmail.com> wrote:

    On Tuesday, February 1, 2022 at 11:35:02 AM UTC-5, eleeper@optonline.net wrote:
    On Tuesday, February 1, 2022 at 11:31:41 AM UTC-5, Steve Coltrin wrote:
    begin fnord
    p...@pauldormer.cix.co.uk (Paul Dormer) writes:

    One of the affects of the pandemic in the last couple of years
    appears to
    be the abandoning of cash in favour of cards (debit as well as credit). >>> > > The only cash I've paid last year was the barber and the window cleaner.
    Even a cheese vendor on a stall in the high street was taking cards. >>> > Even before the plague I'd gotten to the point where I only used cash
    for the vending machine at work and road snacks at gas stations. Almost >>> > everywhere I go I can pay with my watch, and the places I can't I look >>> > for replacements where I can. (Lowe's, this meant you.)

    That said, in the past two years I have touched cash *once*, and only
    because one of my music teachers was having problems with their bank and >>> > asked to be paid in folding money that month.
    Around here (e.g., in the US), restaurants have started charging a
    credit card
    fee of 2%-4%, so a lot of people are going back to cash.

    I"ll have to keep a lookout for that.

    The credit card companies come down *hard* on retailers who do that.

    OTOH, I have seem some gas stations offer 2-3% discounts for cash.

    pt

    I've seen some places offer a discount if you pay in change.
    Apparently there's been a shortage of U.S. coins for a couple years
    now.

    Yes, because people have been buying online and paying with their
    cards, while their spare change accumulates in jars.

    --
    Dorothy J. Heydt
    Vallejo, California
    djheydt at gmail dot com
    Www.kithrup.com/~djheydt/

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
    * Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)
  • From Paul Dormer@21:1/5 to Lynch on Wed Feb 2 10:34:00 2022
    In article <stcs9a$bi0$1@reader1.panix.com>, kfl@KeithLynch.net (Keith F. Lynch) wrote:


    Good. Cash customers shouldn't be forced to subsidize credit card
    users.

    But a debit card is no different to writing a cheque, except the funds
    are transferred electronically. (Shops no longer accept cheques these
    days, and haven't for years.)

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
    * Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)
  • From Paul Dormer@21:1/5 to evelynchimelisleeper@gmail.com on Wed Feb 2 10:34:00 2022
    In article <4a7d5c92-4c7e-4325-a17f-67676ae27d7en@googlegroups.com>, evelynchimelisleeper@gmail.com () wrote:


    Well, I touch cash every time I go to Aldi, because it takes a
    quarter to unlock the shopping trolley. You get it back when you
    return the trolley, but sometimes the trolleys are swapped at the
    checkout, so it may not be your quarter.

    I think it's a pound coin in Tesco, but as I'll be walking home, I always
    use a basket. If I can't carry my purchases in a basket, I'll not be
    able to walk home.

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
    * Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)
  • From Paul Dormer@21:1/5 to Coltrin on Wed Feb 2 12:17:00 2022
    In article <m2h79ii8to.fsf@kelutral.omcl.org>, spcoltri@omcl.org (Steve Coltrin) wrote:


    In parts of Albuquerque, businesses have been robbed so often they are
    going cashless. It's that or close up shop.

    I went to English National Opera before Christmas and their website
    announced the house was card only. I bought a programme with a card. I believe the bar and the ice cream sales were card only. But this was
    probably for hygiene reasons.

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
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  • From rkshullat@rosettacondot.com@21:1/5 to eleeper@optonline.net on Wed Feb 2 14:37:18 2022
    eleeper@optonline.net <evelynchimelisleeper@gmail.com> wrote:
    On Tuesday, February 1, 2022 at 12:14:21 PM UTC-5, Paul Dormer wrote:
    In article <ece14622-ceea-4868...@googlegroups.com>,
    evelynchim...@gmail.com () wrote:


    Around here (e.g., in the US), restaurants have started charging a
    credit card fee of 2%-4%, so a lot of people are going back to cash.
    How about debit cards?

    Them too. Basically, they're passing on their fees these days.

    I can't recall ever encountering this. I have seen a few places (mostly gas stations) offering a cash discount. We used to go to a few restaurants
    that only accepted cash, although I think they've all given up on that or closed. A somewhat higher number required (or at least politely requested)
    that purchases under $10 be made with cash.

    Robert
    --
    Robert K. Shull Email: rkshull at rosettacon dot com

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  • From Steve Coltrin@21:1/5 to rkshullat@rosettacondot.com on Wed Feb 2 09:04:43 2022
    begin fnord
    rkshullat@rosettacondot.com writes:

    I can't recall ever encountering this. I have seen a few places (mostly gas stations) offering a cash discount. We used to go to a few restaurants
    that only accepted cash, although I think they've all given up on that or closed. A somewhat higher number required (or at least politely requested) that purchases under $10 be made with cash.

    There's a gas station near me that charges 21st century customers more
    than it does primitive screwheads who are still banging the rocks
    together. I don't buy gas, or anything else, from them.

    There's a pastry shop in Santa Fe I did patronize that, at least, used
    to be cash only. Then I started going to Santa Fe on a regular basis
    but with four figures worth of instrument with me that I wasn't willing
    to leave in my trunk. Then the damn world blew up and I stopped eating
    out. But I see on Apple Maps that they are (allegedly) taking honest contactless money now.

    --
    Steve Coltrin spcoltri@omcl.org Google Groups killfiled here
    "A group known as the League of Human Dignity helped arrange for Deuel
    to be driven to a local livestock scale, where he could be weighed."
    - Associated Press

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  • From Paul Dormer@21:1/5 to rkshullat@rosettacondot.com on Wed Feb 2 17:08:00 2022
    In article <ste4uu$2hjml$1@memoryalpha.rosettacon.com>, rkshullat@rosettacondot.com () wrote:

    A somewhat higher number required (or at least politely requested)
    that purchases under $10 be made with cash.

    I realised a year or so back how much paying cashless was now the main
    way of paying when I bought something in Tesco. It was less than a pound, about 60p, and I paid with my debit card. (I used a self-service
    checkout so no person telling me I couldn't do that.)

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
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  • From Tim Merrigan@21:1/5 to Paul Dormer on Wed Feb 2 15:54:50 2022
    On Wed, 2 Feb 2022 17:08 +0000 (GMT Standard Time),
    prd@pauldormer.cix.co.uk (Paul Dormer) wrote:

    In article <ste4uu$2hjml$1@memoryalpha.rosettacon.com>, >rkshullat@rosettacondot.com () wrote:

    A somewhat higher number required (or at least politely requested)
    that purchases under $10 be made with cash.

    I realised a year or so back how much paying cashless was now the main
    way of paying when I bought something in Tesco. It was less than a pound, >about 60p, and I paid with my debit card. (I used a self-service
    checkout so no person telling me I couldn't do that.)

    If there had been a problem the selfserv register would have said
    something. And you couldn't try to finagle it "Just this once,"
    unlike if there'd been a clerk there.
    --

    Qualified immunity = virtual impunity.

    Tim Merrigan

    --
    This email has been checked for viruses by AVG.
    https://www.avg.com

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  • From Tim Merrigan@21:1/5 to All on Wed Feb 2 15:59:00 2022
    On Wed, 02 Feb 2022 15:54:50 -0800, Tim Merrigan <tppm@ca.rr.com>
    wrote:

    On Wed, 2 Feb 2022 17:08 +0000 (GMT Standard Time),
    prd@pauldormer.cix.co.uk (Paul Dormer) wrote:

    In article <ste4uu$2hjml$1@memoryalpha.rosettacon.com>, >>rkshullat@rosettacondot.com () wrote:

    A somewhat higher number required (or at least politely requested)
    that purchases under $10 be made with cash.

    I realised a year or so back how much paying cashless was now the main
    way of paying when I bought something in Tesco. It was less than a pound, >>about 60p, and I paid with my debit card. (I used a self-service
    checkout so no person telling me I couldn't do that.)

    If there had been a problem the selfserv register would have said
    something. And you couldn't try to finagle it "Just this once,"
    unlike if there'd been a clerk there.
    --

    Of course you could still buy a candy bar or something to bring it up
    to the minimum.
    --

    Qualified immunity = virtual impunity.

    Tim Merrigan

    --
    This email has been checked for viruses by AVG.
    https://www.avg.com

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  • From Joy Beeson@21:1/5 to evelynchimelisleeper@gmail.com on Fri Feb 11 22:58:00 2022
    On Tue, 1 Feb 2022 17:39:35 -0800 (PST), "eleeper@optonline.net" <evelynchimelisleeper@gmail.com> wrote:

    Well, I touch cash every time I go to Aldi, because it takes a quarter to unlock
    the shopping trolley. You get it back when you return the trolley, but sometimes
    the trolleys are swapped at the checkout, so it may not be your quarter.

    At my Aldi, the carts are alllmost always swapped because the cashier
    starts ringing up your purchases while you are still unloading your
    cart onto the belt. Sometimes I get out of breath trying to keep up.

    --
    Joy Beeson
    joy beeson at centurylink dot net
    http://wlweather.net/PAGEJOY/

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