D.6 Short Title: Sergey Lukianenko
Resolved, that it is the spirit of the Business Meeting to show
solidarity with Ukrainian fans and to condemn Worldcon 2023's
Guest of Honour, Sergey Lukianenko's appalling utterances, calling
Ukrainians Nazis and encouraging an illegal invasion of Ukraine.
This is utterly unacceptable. Lukianenko should neither be
platformed nor celebrated, and we ask the Chengdu 2023 committee,
fans and members to refuse Sergei Lukianenko as your guest. it
is shameful that he is honoured by Worldcon.
Proposed by: Borys Sydiuk, James Bacon, Erin Underwood, Chris
Garcia, Kelly Buehler, Frank Kalisz, Mike Glyer, Ian Stockdale,
Dave Farmer, and Chuck Serface
https://chicon.org/wp-content/uploads/2022/08/2022-WSFS-Agenda-as-of-20220807.pdf
What's the status of that resolution and the other resolutions in
the document? Do they get voted on at the Chicon business meeting?
Gary McGath <garym@REMOVEmcgathREMOVE.com> wrote:
What's the status of that resolution and the other resolutions in
the document? Do they get voted on at the Chicon business meeting?
Yes. All attending members who are present in person are free to
vote in the business meeting. (Members are also free to propose
new business, but the deadline for that has passed.) But nothing
decided is binding on any future Worldcons unless it's ratified by
the business meeting at the immediately following Worldcon.
D.6 Short Title: Sergey Lukianenko
Resolved, that it is the spirit of the Business Meeting to show
solidarity with Ukrainian fans and to condemn Worldcon 2023's
Guest of Honour, Sergey Lukianenko's appalling utterances, calling
Ukrainians Nazis and encouraging an illegal invasion of Ukraine.
This is utterly unacceptable. Lukianenko should neither be
platformed nor celebrated, and we ask the Chengdu 2023 committee,
fans and members to refuse Sergei Lukianenko as your guest. it
is shameful that he is honoured by Worldcon. https://chicon.org/wp-content/uploads/2022/08/2022-WSFS-Agenda-as-of-20220807.pdf
In this case, the resolution doesn't bind any con to anything; it
"asks" the Chengdu committee to drop Lukianenko. Anyway, by the
time it can be ratified in Chengdu, it would be too late. It's just
a sense-of-the-meeting resolution.
Gary McGath <garym@REMOVEmcgathREMOVE.com> wrote:
In this case, the resolution doesn't bind any con to anything; it
"asks" the Chengdu committee to drop Lukianenko. Anyway, by the
time it can be ratified in Chengdu, it would be too late. It's just
a sense-of-the-meeting resolution.
Right. Except that Chengdu *will* have to vote on it, assuming it
passes in Chicago, and that Chengdu follows the rules.
On Tue, 09 Aug 2022 18:19:28 -0400, Gary McGath wrote:
On 8/8/22 9:11 PM, Keith F. Lynch wrote:of-20220807.pdf
D.6 Short Title: Sergey Lukianenko
Resolved, that it is the spirit of the Business Meeting to
show solidarity with Ukrainian fans and to condemn Worldcon
2023's Guest of Honour, Sergey Lukianenko's appalling
utterances, calling Ukrainians Nazis and encouraging an
illegal invasion of Ukraine. This is utterly unacceptable.
Lukianenko should neither be platformed nor celebrated, and
we ask the Chengdu 2023 committee, fans and members to
refuse Sergei Lukianenko as your guest. it is shameful
that he is honoured by Worldcon.
https://chicon.org/wp-content/uploads/2022/08/2022-WSFS-Agenda-
as-
The resolution before that is more problematic:
Resolved, that it is the spirit of the Business Meeting to
offer solidarity with Ukrainian Fans, recognizing that
Ukraine has been invaded by fascists. We encourage all to
boycott those who would platform or champion the illegal
invasion. The Business Meeting looks forward to a return of
freedom and fandom to Ukraine.
The first issue is technical. Russia's government is autocratic
but doesn't have a lot of the characteristics that are
distinctive to fascism. The business structure isn't, as far as
I know, an organic extension of the state. The characteristic
fascist drive for nationalistic unity isn't very strong; it
can't be, considering how ethnically fragmented Russia is.
This isn't so important; I know a lot of people use "fascist"
for "bad" these days. What concerns me more is the call for
boycotting anyone who "platforms" the invasion. That expression
is senseless, but I'm guessing it means that no one should
provide an opportunity for advocates of the invasion to speak,
and anyone who provides one needs to be boycotted.
To answer Russia's alleged case for invasion, it's necessary to
hear it. Those answering it have to quote it; is that
"platforming"? Some Facebook posts have been taken down for
quoting statements or linking to videos that they want to
rebut.
What about pointing out Ukrainian violations of human rights
(e.g., not letting people leave the country) or questionable
alliances (the Azov battalion)? Are sites that allow such
statements "platforming"? Should they be boycotted?
The resolution is too vague and broad.
Fascist ,much like Nazi, does not really have a meaning apart
from what you call people you disagree with nowadays. And the
rest is just an outgrowth of the idea that "no one who we
disagree with should be allowed to speak out because they might
influence the stupid sheep who are supposed to follow our
orders".
On 8/8/22 9:11 PM, Keith F. Lynch wrote:
D.6 Short Title: Sergey Lukianenko
Resolved, that it is the spirit of the Business Meeting to show
solidarity with Ukrainian fans and to condemn Worldcon 2023's Guest
of Honour, Sergey Lukianenko's appalling utterances, calling
Ukrainians Nazis and encouraging an illegal invasion of Ukraine.
This is utterly unacceptable. Lukianenko should neither be
platformed nor celebrated, and we ask the Chengdu 2023 committee,
fans and members to refuse Sergei Lukianenko as your guest. it is
shameful that he is honoured by Worldcon.
https://chicon.org/wp-content/uploads/2022/08/2022-WSFS-Agenda-as- of-20220807.pdf
The resolution before that is more problematic:
Resolved, that it is the spirit of the Business Meeting to offer
solidarity with Ukrainian Fans, recognizing that Ukraine has been
invaded by fascists. We encourage all to boycott those who would
platform or champion the illegal invasion. The Business Meeting looks
forward to a return of freedom and fandom to Ukraine.
The first issue is technical. Russia's government is autocratic but
doesn't have a lot of the characteristics that are distinctive to
fascism. The business structure isn't, as far as I know, an organic
extension of the state. The characteristic fascist drive for
nationalistic unity isn't very strong; it can't be, considering how ethnically fragmented Russia is.
This isn't so important; I know a lot of people use "fascist" for "bad"
these days. What concerns me more is the call for boycotting anyone who "platforms" the invasion. That expression is senseless, but I'm guessing
it means that no one should provide an opportunity for advocates of the invasion to speak, and anyone who provides one needs to be boycotted.
To answer Russia's alleged case for invasion, it's necessary to hear it. Those answering it have to quote it; is that "platforming"? Some
Facebook posts have been taken down for quoting statements or linking to videos that they want to rebut.
What about pointing out Ukrainian violations of human rights (e.g., not letting people leave the country) or questionable alliances (the Azov battalion)? Are sites that allow such statements "platforming"? Should
they be boycotted?
The resolution is too vague and broad.
On Tue, 09 Aug 2022 18:19:28 -0400, Gary McGath wrote:
On 8/8/22 9:11 PM, Keith F. Lynch wrote:
D.6 Short Title: Sergey Lukianenko
Resolved, that it is the spirit of the Business Meeting to show
solidarity with Ukrainian fans and to condemn Worldcon 2023's Guest
of Honour, Sergey Lukianenko's appalling utterances, calling
Ukrainians Nazis and encouraging an illegal invasion of Ukraine.
This is utterly unacceptable. Lukianenko should neither be
platformed nor celebrated, and we ask the Chengdu 2023 committee,
fans and members to refuse Sergei Lukianenko as your guest. it is
shameful that he is honoured by Worldcon.
https://chicon.org/wp-content/uploads/2022/08/2022-WSFS-Agenda-as- >of-20220807.pdf
The resolution before that is more problematic:
Resolved, that it is the spirit of the Business Meeting to offer
solidarity with Ukrainian Fans, recognizing that Ukraine has been
invaded by fascists. We encourage all to boycott those who would
platform or champion the illegal invasion. The Business Meeting looks
forward to a return of freedom and fandom to Ukraine.
The first issue is technical. Russia's government is autocratic but
doesn't have a lot of the characteristics that are distinctive to
fascism. The business structure isn't, as far as I know, an organic
extension of the state. The characteristic fascist drive for
nationalistic unity isn't very strong; it can't be, considering how
ethnically fragmented Russia is.
This isn't so important; I know a lot of people use "fascist" for "bad"
these days. What concerns me more is the call for boycotting anyone who
"platforms" the invasion. That expression is senseless, but I'm guessing
it means that no one should provide an opportunity for advocates of the
invasion to speak, and anyone who provides one needs to be boycotted.
To answer Russia's alleged case for invasion, it's necessary to hear it.
Those answering it have to quote it; is that "platforming"? Some
Facebook posts have been taken down for quoting statements or linking to
videos that they want to rebut.
What about pointing out Ukrainian violations of human rights (e.g., not
letting people leave the country) or questionable alliances (the Azov
battalion)? Are sites that allow such statements "platforming"? Should
they be boycotted?
The resolution is too vague and broad.
Fascist ,much like Nazi, does not really have a meaning apart from what
you call people you disagree with nowadays. And the rest is just an >outgrowth of the idea that "no one who we disagree with should be allowed
to speak out because they might influence the stupid sheep who are
supposed to follow our orders".
In article <td12r9$1ttqp$1@dont-email.me>,
Magewolf <Magewolf@nc.rr.com> wrote:
On Tue, 09 Aug 2022 18:19:28 -0400, Gary McGath wrote:
On 8/8/22 9:11 PM, Keith F. Lynch wrote:
D.6 Short Title: Sergey Lukianenko
Resolved, that it is the spirit of the Business Meeting to show
solidarity with Ukrainian fans and to condemn Worldcon 2023's
Guest of Honour, Sergey Lukianenko's appalling utterances, calling
Ukrainians Nazis and encouraging an illegal invasion of Ukraine.
This is utterly unacceptable. Lukianenko should neither be
platformed nor celebrated, and we ask the Chengdu 2023 committee,
fans and members to refuse Sergei Lukianenko as your guest. it is
shameful that he is honoured by Worldcon.
https://chicon.org/wp-content/uploads/2022/08/2022-WSFS-Agenda-as- >>of-20220807.pdf
The resolution before that is more problematic:
Resolved, that it is the spirit of the Business Meeting to offer
solidarity with Ukrainian Fans, recognizing that Ukraine has been
invaded by fascists. We encourage all to boycott those who would
platform or champion the illegal invasion. The Business Meeting
looks forward to a return of freedom and fandom to Ukraine.
The first issue is technical. Russia's government is autocratic but
doesn't have a lot of the characteristics that are distinctive to
fascism. The business structure isn't, as far as I know, an organic
extension of the state. The characteristic fascist drive for
nationalistic unity isn't very strong; it can't be, considering how
ethnically fragmented Russia is.
This isn't so important; I know a lot of people use "fascist" for
"bad" these days. What concerns me more is the call for boycotting
anyone who "platforms" the invasion. That expression is senseless, but
I'm guessing it means that no one should provide an opportunity for
advocates of the invasion to speak, and anyone who provides one needs
to be boycotted.
To answer Russia's alleged case for invasion, it's necessary to hear
it.
Those answering it have to quote it; is that "platforming"? Some
Facebook posts have been taken down for quoting statements or linking
to videos that they want to rebut.
What about pointing out Ukrainian violations of human rights (e.g.,
not letting people leave the country) or questionable alliances (the
Azov battalion)? Are sites that allow such statements "platforming"?
Should they be boycotted?
The resolution is too vague and broad.
Fascist ,much like Nazi, does not really have a meaning apart from what
you call people you disagree with nowadays. And the rest is just an >>outgrowth of the idea that "no one who we disagree with should be
allowed to speak out because they might influence the stupid sheep who
are supposed to follow our orders".
(Hal Heydt)
Well.... *Technically* it's a reference to the Roman fasces,
usually as adopted by Mussolini as a symbol for his governing party. So formally, the fascists were Italians.
Yes, fascist and nazi have definitions but in general use I have not seen >fascist used correctly in years and nazi is very rarely used to refer to >actual Nazis.
My grandmother was a fascist, and had a picture of Il Duce hanging
up next to her picture of the Pope. Having to explain this for
security reviews at work was always an adventure since the security
people were all too young to know what fascism was...
Well.... *Technically* it's a reference to the Roman fasces,
usually as adopted by Mussolini as a symbol for his governing
party. So formally, the fascists were Italians.
Scott Dorsey <kludge@panix.com> wrote:
My grandmother was a fascist, and had a picture of Il Duce hanging
up next to her picture of the Pope. Having to explain this for
security reviews at work was always an adventure since the security
people were all too young to know what fascism was...
Why did they require an explanation for her having a picture of some
random person they didn't recognize next to the picture of the Pope?
(And presumably they only knew it was the Pope from the hat he was
wearing.)
In article <td45qb$3v7$1@panix2.panix.com>,
Scott Dorsey <kludge@panix.com> wrote:
Keith F. Lynch <kfl@KeithLynch.net> wrote:
Scott Dorsey <kludge@panix.com> wrote:
My grandmother was a fascist, and had a picture of Il Duce hanging
up next to her picture of the Pope. Having to explain this for
security reviews at work was always an adventure since the security
people were all too young to know what fascism was...
Why did they require an explanation for her having a picture of some
random person they didn't recognize next to the picture of the Pope?
(And presumably they only knew it was the Pope from the hat he was
wearing.)
They would ask the usual question about whether one had been in contact
with people who may espouse anti-American views and I would state that
I saw my grandmother and she was a Fascist and then the questions went on...
(Hal Heydt)
The form of the question has changed in recent years, but I used
to have an interesting time with medical history questions when
they asked if any of my relatives had had TB. My answer was,
"Yes, but you don't care." At that point, they'd want an
explanation and I would state that my paternal grandfather
had died from TB...in 1917. At that point, the person who asked
the quesion would agree that they did, in fact, not care.
Keith F. Lynch <kfl@KeithLynch.net> wrote:
Scott Dorsey <kludge@panix.com> wrote:
My grandmother was a fascist, and had a picture of Il Duce hanging
up next to her picture of the Pope. Having to explain this for
security reviews at work was always an adventure since the security
people were all too young to know what fascism was...
Why did they require an explanation for her having a picture of some
random person they didn't recognize next to the picture of the Pope?
(And presumably they only knew it was the Pope from the hat he was >>wearing.)
They would ask the usual question about whether one had been in contact
with people who may espouse anti-American views and I would state that
I saw my grandmother and she was a Fascist and then the questions went on...
On 8/11/2022 7:33 PM, Dorothy J Heydt wrote:
In article <td45qb$3v7$1@panix2.panix.com>,
Scott Dorsey <kludge@panix.com> wrote:
Keith F. Lynch <kfl@KeithLynch.net> wrote:
Scott Dorsey <kludge@panix.com> wrote:
My grandmother was a fascist, and had a picture of Il Duce hanging
up next to her picture of the Pope. Having to explain this for
security reviews at work was always an adventure since the security
people were all too young to know what fascism was...
Why did they require an explanation for her having a picture of some
random person they didn't recognize next to the picture of the Pope?
(And presumably they only knew it was the Pope from the hat he was
wearing.)
They would ask the usual question about whether one had been in contact
with people who may espouse anti-American views and I would state that
I saw my grandmother and she was a Fascist and then the questions went on...
(Hal Heydt)
The form of the question has changed in recent years, but I used
to have an interesting time with medical history questions when
they asked if any of my relatives had had TB. My answer was,
"Yes, but you don't care." At that point, they'd want an
explanation and I would state that my paternal grandfather
had died from TB...in 1917. At that point, the person who asked
the quesion would agree that they did, in fact, not care.
Graduating college through ROTC in the late seventies our form included
the question, has any member of your family served in the military?
Friend answered yes. What branch? Army. Did they receive any awards?
Iron Cross.
On 8/11/2022 7:33 PM, Dorothy J Heydt wrote:
In article <td45qb$3v7$1@panix2.panix.com>,
Scott Dorsey <kludge@panix.com> wrote:
Keith F. Lynch <kfl@KeithLynch.net> wrote:
Scott Dorsey <kludge@panix.com> wrote:
My grandmother was a fascist, and had a picture of Il Duce hanging
up next to her picture of the Pope. Having to explain this for
security reviews at work was always an adventure since the security
people were all too young to know what fascism was...
Why did they require an explanation for her having a picture of some
random person they didn't recognize next to the picture of the Pope?
(And presumably they only knew it was the Pope from the hat he was
wearing.)
They would ask the usual question about whether one had been in contact
with people who may espouse anti-American views and I would state that
I saw my grandmother and she was a Fascist and then the questions went on...
(Hal Heydt)
The form of the question has changed in recent years, but I used
to have an interesting time with medical history questions when
they asked if any of my relatives had had TB. My answer was,
"Yes, but you don't care." At that point, they'd want an
explanation and I would state that my paternal grandfather
had died from TB...in 1917. At that point, the person who asked
the quesion would agree that they did, in fact, not care.
Graduating college through ROTC in the late seventies our form included
the question, has any member of your family served in the military?
Friend answered yes. What branch? Army. Did they receive any awards?
Iron Cross.
On Thu, 11 Aug 2022 20:14:05 -0000 (UTC), Magewolf
<Magewolf@nc.rr.com> wrote:
Yes, fascist and nazi have definitions but in general use I have not seen
fascist used correctly in years and nazi is very rarely used to refer to
actual Nazis.
First a disclaimer: I have heard that the Italian Fascist Party still exists, headed by Mussolini's daughter, and held a few seats in
Italy's parliament a few years ago.
My understanding is that when one removes the racism (small f) fascism
is essentially government of the industrialists, by the
industrialists, and for the industrialists.
On 8/11/22 4:51 PM, Tim Merrigan wrote:
On Thu, 11 Aug 2022 20:14:05 -0000 (UTC), Magewolf
<Mage...@nc.rr.com> wrote:
Yes, fascist and nazi have definitions but in general use I have not seen >> fascist used correctly in years and nazi is very rarely used to refer to >> actual Nazis.
First a disclaimer: I have heard that the Italian Fascist Party still exists, headed by Mussolini's daughter, and held a few seats in
Italy's parliament a few years ago.
My understanding is that when one removes the racism (small f) fascismThere's an element of truth in this, but the Italian word "corporati" as
is essentially government of the industrialists, by the
industrialists, and for the industrialists.
used by the Fascists confuses things. They were talking about a form of syndicalism where citizens' organizations carry out the supposed
national will at the level of communities, trades, and businesses. It
seems to include corporations but isn't limited to them.
Italian Fascism wasn't particularly racist at first, though it became
more so under Nazi influence.
--
Graduating college through ROTC in the late seventies our form included
the question, has any member of your family served in the military?
Friend answered yes. What branch? Army. Did they receive any awards?
Iron Cross.
D.6 Short Title: Sergey Lukianenko
Resolved, that it is the spirit of the Business Meeting to show
solidarity with Ukrainian fans and to condemn Worldcon 2023's
Guest of Honour, Sergey Lukianenko's appalling utterances, calling
Ukrainians Nazis and encouraging an illegal invasion of Ukraine.
This is utterly unacceptable. Lukianenko should neither be
platformed nor celebrated, and we ask the Chengdu 2023 committee,
fans and members to refuse Sergei Lukianenko as your guest. it
is shameful that he is honoured by Worldcon.
Proposed by: Borys Sydiuk, James Bacon, Erin Underwood, Chris
Garcia, Kelly Buehler, Frank Kalisz, Mike Glyer, Ian Stockdale,
Dave Farmer, and Chuck Serface
https://chicon.org/wp-content/uploads/2022/08/2022-WSFS-Agenda-as-of-20220807.pdf
On 8/8/22 9:11 PM, Keith F. Lynch wrote:resolutions-passed-by-chicon-8-business-meeting/
D.6 Short Title: Sergey Lukianenko
Resolved, that it is the spirit of the Business Meeting to show
solidarity with Ukrainian fans and to condemn Worldcon 2023's Guest
of Honour, Sergey Lukianenko's appalling utterances, calling
Ukrainians Nazis and encouraging an illegal invasion of Ukraine.
This is utterly unacceptable. Lukianenko should neither be
platformed nor celebrated, and we ask the Chengdu 2023 committee,
fans and members to refuse Sergei Lukianenko as your guest. it is
shameful that he is honoured by Worldcon.
Proposed by: Borys Sydiuk, James Bacon, Erin Underwood, Chris
Garcia, Kelly Buehler, Frank Kalisz, Mike Glyer, Ian Stockdale, Dave
Farmer, and Chuck Serface
https://chicon.org/wp-content/uploads/2022/08/2022-WSFS-Agenda-as- of-20220807.pdf
Update: The resolution passed. The one calling for a boycott of anyone
who "platforms" the invasion also passed.
https://file770.com/eph-re-ratified-pro-ukraine-and-anti-lukianenko-
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