XPost: alt.free.newsservers, alt.usage.english

This was just posted on the Windows newsgroups, but it applies equally to
those on these specialty newsgroups who search before they ask questions.
*Google Groups Archives for this newsgroup*

Paul wrote:

Google Groups stopped adding groups, some time ago.

It has added a ton of its own private groups.
Which nobody cares about.

Hi Paul,

I often run a search before asking questions, and when researching
issues to help answer others, so I've been involved in this for years.

I think your assumption is not quite accurate, as I have been using Google Groups archival links for many years, but I didn't do any explicit research
so it's just my "experienced assumption" that Google _does_ add groups.

They're just extremely selective about which groups they bother to add. :)

In fact, on this very newsgroup we _created_ the tinyurl links of the past:
<alt.usage.english>
<news.software.readers>
<alt.free.newsservers>
<rec.photo.digital>
<rec.autos.tech>
<alt.home.repair>
<alt.comp.microsoft.windows>
<microsoft.public.windowsxp.general>
<alt.comp.os.windows-11>
<alt.comp.os.windows-10>
<alt.comp.os.windows-8>
<alt.windows7.general>
<alt.msdos.batch>
<alt.os.linux>
<comp.mobile.android>
<comp.mobile.ipad>
<misc.phone.mobile.iphone>
<alt.comp.freeware>
etc.

Which was well before Google changed their archival links to something easy
to remember, but when the "N" archives used exactly those monikers, namely:
<https://alt.usage.english.narchive.com>
<https://alt.free.newsservers.narchive.com>
<https://news.software.readers.narchive.com>
<https://rec.photo.digital.narchive.com>
<https://rec.autos.tech.narchive.com>
<https://alt.home.repair.narchive.com>
<https://alt.comp.microsoft.windows.narchive.com>
<https://microsoft.public.windowsxp.general.narchive.com>
<https://alt.comp.os.windows-11.narchive.com>
<https://alt.comp.os.windows-10.narchive.com>
<https://alt.comp.os.windows-8.narchive.com>
<https://alt.windows7.general.narchive.com>
<https://alt.msdos.batch.narchive.com>
<https://alt.os.linux.narchive.com>
<https://comp.mobile.android.narchive.com>
<https://comp.mobile.ipad.narchive.com>
<https://misc.phone.mobile.iphone.narchive.com>
<https://alt.comp.freeware.narchive.com>
etc.

What I had created were tinyurl links which were the best I could do then:
<https://tinyurl.com/alt-usage-english>
<https://tinyurl.com/news-software-readers>
<https://tinyurl.com/alt-free-newsservers>
<https://tinyurl.com/rec-photo-digital>
<https://tinyurl.com/rec-autos-tech>
<https://tinyurl.com/alt-home-repair>
<https://tinyurl.com/alt-comp-microsoft-windows>
<https://tinyurl.com/microsoft-public-windowsxp-gen> (30-character limit)
I also had created an easier URL:<https://tinyurl.com/windowsxp-general>
<alt.comp.os.windows-11> At the time this didn't exist for me to set up
<https://tinyurl.com/alt-comp-os-windows-10>
<https://tinyurl.com/alt-comp-os-windows-8>
<https://tinyurl.com/alt-comp-os-windows-7>
<https://tinyurl.com/alt-windows7-general>
<https://tinyurl.com/alt-msdos-batch>
<https://tinyurl.com/alt-os-linux>
<https://tinyurl.com/comp-mobile-android>
<https://tinyurl.com/comp-mobile-ipad>
<https://tinyurl.com/misc-phone-mobile-iphone>
<https://tinyurl.com/alt-comp-freeware>
etc.

Note these are all so old they link to the now-deprecated Google Groups
which had recently been DejaNews archived at that time of formation:
<https://groups.google.com/forum/#!forum/alt.usage.english>
<https://groups.google.com/forum/#!forum/news.software.readers>
<https://groups.google.com/forum/#!forum/alt.free.newsservers>
<https://groups.google.com/forum/#!forum/rec.photo.digital>
<https://groups.google.com/forum/#!forum/rec.autos.tech>
<https://groups.google.com/forum/#!forum/alt.home.repair>
<https://groups.google.com/forum/#!forum/alt.comp.microsoft.windows>

<https://groups.google.com/forum/#!forum/microsoft.public.windowsxp.general>
<alt.comp.os.windows-11> At the time this didn't exist for me to set up
<http://www.pcbanter.net/forumdisplay.php?f=52> for Windows 10
<http://www.pcbanter.net/forumdisplay.php?f=50> for Windows-8
<http://www.pcbanter.net/forumdisplay.php?f=48> for Windows-7
<https://groups.google.com/forum/#!forum/alt.msdos.batch>
<https://groups.google.com/forum/#!forum/alt.os.linux>
<https://groups.google.com/forum/#!forum/comp.mobile.android>
<https://groups.google.com/forum/#!forum/comp.mobile.ipad>
<https://groups.google.com/forum/#!forum/misc.phone.mobile.iphone>
<https://groups.google.com/forum/#!forum/alt.comp.freeware>
etc.

Which, after the great reshuffling, currently boil down to the following
much easier to remember and logically derived Google Groups search links:
<https://groups.google.com/g/alt.usage.english>
<https://groups.google.com/g/news.software.readers>
<https://groups.google.com/g/alt.free.newsservers>
<https://groups.google.com/g/rec.photo.digital>
<https://groups.google.com/g/rec.autos.tech>
<https://groups.google.com/g/alt.home.repair>
<https://groups.google.com/g/alt.comp.microsoft.windows>
<https://groups.google.com/g/microsoft.public.windowsxp.general>
<alt.comp.os.windows-11>
<alt.comp.os.windows-10>
<alt.comp.os.windows-8>
<alt.windows7.general>
<https://groups.google.com/g/alt.msdos.batch>
<https://groups.google.com/g/alt.os.linux>
<https://groups.google.com/g/comp.mobile.android>
<https://groups.google.com/g/comp.mobile.ipad>
<https://groups.google.com/g/misc.phone.mobile.iphone>
<https://groups.google.com/g/alt.comp.freeware>
etc.

In summary, I "think" Google _does_ add groups when _they_ see fit.
They just do NOT see fit to add Windows variants as archived groups.
--
Posted out of the goodness of my heart to disseminate useful information
which, in this case, is to faithfully elucidate group search archival URLs.

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Frank Miller wrote:

Everybody complains about the weather but nobody does a thing about it.
What do you know that's better for searching usenet articles?
David Knight?

I think you mean Howard Knight.. http://al.howardknight.net/

I never log into the google groups search engine where it used to be that
you could get the headers, including the message-id, without logging in.

But now you can't get the headers anymore - and I never log into Google
Groups so I don't know if even logging in provides those headers.

Does it?

If someone has logged into the groups.google.com/g/<name of usenet ng>,
can you let the rest of us know if the all-important message-id is given?

Without that all-important message-id, I don't think Howard Knight is
useful as a search engine to provide links for others to follow, is it?

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Tuesday, Andy Burnelli murmurred ...

Frank Miller wrote:

Everybody complains about the weather but nobody does a thing about it.
What do you know that's better for searching usenet articles?
David Knight?

I think you mean Howard Knight.. http://al.howardknight.net/

I never log into the google groups search engine where it used to be that you could get the headers, including the message-id, without logging in.

But now you can't get the headers anymore - and I never log into Google Groups so I don't know if even logging in provides those headers.

Does it?

If someone has logged into the groups.google.com/g/<name of usenet ng>, can you let the rest of us know if the all-important message-id is given?

Without that all-important message-id, I don't think Howard Knight is useful as a search engine to provide links for others to follow, is it?

I don't see a way to display headers. The "Show original message"
option is still in the per-message hamburger, but it's been grayed out.
ISTR a tick by the author's name would show some headers, but that's
all the way gone.

The search box doesn't find the message-id. For that matter, the
"Advanced search" dialog has lost several options from just a couple
years ago. "Does not have" is missing, for instance.

There may well be an operator to use in the searchbox that will find
the message-id, but finding that may be a herculean task .... I tried
a couple of guesses but was unsuccessful.

SWAG: since GG has all sorts of statistics, and probably doesn't have
the top code maintainers, they may have looked at what searches happen
in GG and dumped the ones that require more than new-hire skills to
implement.

[I'm pretty sure they have Message-ID field in their database, to use
for threading the messages.]

/dps

--
https://xkcd.com/2704

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On 29/03/23 19:49, Snidely wrote:

Tuesday, Andy Burnelli murmurred ...

Frank Miller wrote:

Everybody complains about the weather but nobody does a thing
about it. What do you know that's better for searching usenet
articles? David Knight?

I think you mean Howard Knight.. http://al.howardknight.net/

I never log into the google groups search engine where it used to
be that you could get the headers, including the message-id,
without logging in.

But now you can't get the headers anymore - and I never log into
Google Groups so I don't know if even logging in provides those
headers.

Does it?

If someone has logged into the groups.google.com/g/<name of usenet

, can you let the rest of us know if the all-important

message-id is given?

Without that all-important message-id, I don't think Howard Knight
is useful as a search engine to provide links for others to follow,
is it?

I don't see a way to display headers. The "Show original message"
option is still in the per-message hamburger, but it's been grayed
out. ISTR a tick by the author's name would show some headers, but
that's all the way gone.

The search box doesn't find the message-id. For that matter, the
"Advanced search" dialog has lost several options from just a couple
years ago. "Does not have" is missing, for instance.

There may well be an operator to use in the searchbox that will find
the message-id, but finding that may be a herculean task .... I
tried a couple of guesses but was unsuccessful.

SWAG: since GG has all sorts of statistics, and probably doesn't
have the top code maintainers, they may have looked at what searches
happen in GG and dumped the ones that require more than new-hire
skills to implement.

[I'm pretty sure they have Message-ID field in their database, to use
for threading the messages.]

Do they still do threading? I know GG used to have a threaded view, but
the last time I looked that option was missing. I think all articles now
are grouped by Subject:, not by thread.

Probably because it was useless to everyone. The indentation was so
small that you couldn't easily tell when a subthread started and stopped.

--
Peter Moylan Newcastle, NSW http://www.pmoylan.org

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Den 29.03.2023 kl. 21.57 skrev Andy Burnelli:

Other than relying on those two and/or the largesse of your nntp server
(or even your own downloads of articles & headers), if anyone knows of a better general purpose Usenet server search mechanism, please elucidate.

We need Deja-News.

--
Bertel, Denmark

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Andy Burns wrote:

If someone has logged into the groups.google.com/g/<name of usenet ng>,
can you let the rest of us know if the all-important message-id is given?

No, but you used to.
Even if logged-in, and even if joined the group (whatever that means)
you can't see headers, because you don't have "view member email
permission" which may be meaningful for a google group but obviously not
for a usenet group. I suspect google would ignore any question related
to permissions, or need "the owner" of the group to give permission, at
which point they've lost the plot ...

Thanks for testing the headers, Andy, as you're credible so I believe you. Without the message-id, we can't really use Howard Knight, afaict.

This means we have precious few ways of running a general search of the permanent Usenet archives (other than groups.google.com & narkive.com).

Other than relying on those two and/or the largesse of your nntp server
(or even your own downloads of articles & headers), if anyone knows of a
better general purpose Usenet server search mechanism, please elucidate.

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Bertel Lund Hansen <gadekryds@lundhansen.dk> wrote:

Den 29.03.2023 kl. 21.57 skrev Andy Burnelli:

Other than relying on those two and/or the largesse of your nntp server
(or even your own downloads of articles & headers), if anyone knows of a better general purpose Usenet server search mechanism, please elucidate.

We need Deja-News.

Yes.

IMO when Goggle borged DejaNews marks the moment they became evil.

--
^Ï^. – Sn!pe – My pet rock Gordon just is.

<https://youtu.be/_kqytf31a8E>

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Andy Burnelli wrote:
Typo on the narkive URL which is my fault so I correct below
as all we have for general purpose free search engines are...
groups.google.com/g/<name-of-usenet-ng>
<name-of-usenet-ng>.narkive.com

For example...
<https://alt.free.newsservers.narkive.com>
<https://alt.free.nntp.narkive.com>
<https://news.software.nntp.narkive.com>
<https://news.software.readers.narkive.com>
<https://comp.text.pdf.narkive.com>
<https://alt.comp.software.thunderbird.narkive.com>
<https://alt.comp.software.firefox.narkive.com>
<https://rec.photo.digital.narkive.com>
<https://rec.autos.tech.narkive.com>
<https://alt.home.repair.narkive.com>
<https://alt.comp.microsoft.windows.narkive.com>
<https://microsoft.public.windowsxp.general.narkive.com>
<https://alt.comp.os.windows-11.narkive.com>
<https://alt.comp.os.windows-10.narkive.com>
<https://alt.comp.os.windows-8.narkive.com>
<https://alt.windows7.general.narkive.com>
<https://alt.msdos.batch.narkive.com>
<https://alt.os.linux.narkive.com>
<https://comp.mobile.android.narkive.com>
<https://comp.mobile.ipad.narkive.com>
<https://misc.phone.mobile.iphone.narkive.com>
<https://alt.comp.freeware.narkive.com>
<https://comp.sys.mac.apps.narkive.com>
<https://comp.sys.mac.system.narkive.com>
<https://comp.sys.mac.advocacy.narkive.com>
<https://alt.internet.wireless.narkive.com>
<https://sci.electronics.repair.narkive.com>
<https://sci.geo.satellite-nav.narkive.com>
<https://sci.electronics.design.narkive.com>
<https://sci.electronics.equipment.narkive.com>
<https://sci.electronics.misc.narkive.com>
<https://alt.usage.english.narkive.com>
etc.

As always, every post should benefit as many people as possible so if you
know of other general purpose web-based permanent Usenet archives, please
add them so that everyone benefits from every action you take on Usenet.
--
Posted out of the goodness of my heart to disseminate useful information
which, in this case, is to faithfully try to help everyone with searches.

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On Wed, 29 Mar 2023 20:57:14 +0100, Andy Burnelli <nospam@nospam.net>
wrote:

Andy Burns wrote:

If someone has logged into the groups.google.com/g/<name of usenet ng>,
can you let the rest of us know if the all-important message-id is given? >>

No, but you used to.
Even if logged-in, and even if joined the group (whatever that means)
you can't see headers, because you don't have "view member email
permission" which may be meaningful for a google group but obviously not
for a usenet group. I suspect google would ignore any question related
to permissions, or need "the owner" of the group to give permission, at
which point they've lost the plot ...

Thanks for testing the headers, Andy, as you're credible so I believe you. >Without the message-id, we can't really use Howard Knight, afaict.

This means we have precious few ways of running a general search of the >permanent Usenet archives (other than groups.google.com & narkive.com).

Other than relying on those two and/or the largesse of your nntp server
(or even your own downloads of articles & headers), if anyone knows of a >better general purpose Usenet server search mechanism, please elucidate.

I get my posts from Giganews, which -- IIRC -- promises to keep
text groups forever -- though they did not start at the start like
DejaNews.

In Forte, I have occasionally looked at the headers and clicked
on a message ID to pull up the referenced article. Forte seaches
on my disk, then can go online. I haven't tried that for anything
known to be really old.

The Wiki article on GigaNews says, "Giganews offers more than
three years of article retention in binary groups and eight years
in text groups." - That statement has a citation is now unavailble,
but which was downloaded in 2014. As I interpret that, the
GigaNews repository is thus dated as at least as early as 2006.
That's about when I started using Giganews.

--
Rich Ulrich

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On 2023-03-29 14:25, Andy Burnelli wrote:

Andy Burnelli wrote:
Typo on the narkive URL which is my fault so I correct below
as all we have for general purpose free search engines are... groups.google.com/g/<name-of-usenet-ng>
<name-of-usenet-ng>.narkive.com
For example...
<https://alt.free.newsservers.narkive.com> <https://alt.free.nntp.narkive.com>
<https://news.software.nntp.narkive.com> <https://news.software.readers.narkive.com> <https://comp.text.pdf.narkive.com> <https://alt.comp.software.thunderbird.narkive.com> <https://alt.comp.software.firefox.narkive.com> <https://rec.photo.digital.narkive.com>
<https://rec.autos.tech.narkive.com>
<https://alt.home.repair.narkive.com> <https://alt.comp.microsoft.windows.narkive.com> <https://microsoft.public.windowsxp.general.narkive.com> <https://alt.comp.os.windows-11.narkive.com> <https://alt.comp.os.windows-10.narkive.com> <https://alt.comp.os.windows-8.narkive.com> <https://alt.windows7.general.narkive.com> <https://alt.msdos.batch.narkive.com>
<https://alt.os.linux.narkive.com>
<https://comp.mobile.android.narkive.com> <https://comp.mobile.ipad.narkive.com> <https://misc.phone.mobile.iphone.narkive.com> <https://alt.comp.freeware.narkive.com> <https://comp.sys.mac.apps.narkive.com> <https://comp.sys.mac.system.narkive.com> <https://comp.sys.mac.advocacy.narkive.com> <https://alt.internet.wireless.narkive.com> <https://sci.electronics.repair.narkive.com> <https://sci.geo.satellite-nav.narkive.com> <https://sci.electronics.design.narkive.com> <https://sci.electronics.equipment.narkive.com> <https://sci.electronics.misc.narkive.com> <https://alt.usage.english.narkive.com>

What am I missing? I see no way to search the archive.

etc.

As always, every post should benefit as many people as possible so if you know of other general purpose web-based permanent Usenet archives, please
add them so that everyone benefits from every action you take on Usenet.

--
I'd give my right arm to be ambidextrous.

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Den 29.03.2023 kl. 23.14 skrev Sn!pe:

We need Deja-News.

Yes.

IMO when Goggle borged DejaNews marks the moment they became evil.

No, that happened later. In the beginning Google supplied the same
services as deja-News had done.

--
Bertel, Denmark

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Bertel Lund Hansen <gadekryds@lundhansen.dk> wrote:

Den 29.03.2023 kl. 23.14 skrev Sn!pe:

We need Deja-News.

Yes.

IMO when Goggle borged DejaNews marks the moment
they became evil.

No, that happened later. In the beginning Google supplied the same
services as deja-News had done.

Yes, but not for long; although the real sins were when they tried
to annex Usenet with Goggle Groups, then failed to maintain the
Deja search facility properly.

--
^Ï^. – Sn!pe – My pet rock Gordon just is.

<https://youtu.be/_kqytf31a8E>

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On 30/03/23 19:52, Sn!pe wrote:

Bertel Lund Hansen <gadekryds@lundhansen.dk> wrote:

Den 29.03.2023 kl. 23.14 skrev Sn!pe:

We need Deja-News.

Yes.

IMO when Goggle borged DejaNews marks the moment they became
evil.

No, that happened later. In the beginning Google supplied the same
services as deja-News had done.

Yes, but not for long; although the real sins were when they tried to
annex Usenet with Goggle Groups, then failed to maintain the Deja
search facility properly.

For a long time there they seemed to have nobody who knew how to design
a search engine.

--
Peter Moylan Newcastle, NSW http://www.pmoylan.org

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lar3ryca wrote:

What am I missing? I see no way to search the archive.

Hmmmm... I am no fan of either the groups.google.com/g/name.of.ng or the name.of.ng.narkive.com mechanism, but both "should" run a basic search.

If I click on "Display Options", more stuff comes up, but not the search.

Going to <https://alt.free.newsservers.narkive.com> to test your findings,
I see what you mean. What happened to their "search" button lately?

Thank you for pointing that out as I looked about and didn't see it either.

Apparently you can "register an account" but that's not the point here.
<https://narkive.com/about>
<https://narkive.com/privacy>
<https://narkive.com/legalese>

I sent an email asking for what happened to the search button.
"Narkive was started in late 2009 by then 17-year-old me (Davide Cavion)
and has since then always been a one man operation (david @ narkive com).

Hacking, I guess we could add "site:narkive.com" to a search engine as
I'm going to agree with you that I can't find the search button anymore.
<https://duckduckgo.com/?va=u&t=hi&q=lar3ryca+site%253Anarkive.com>
<https://www.google.com/search?q=lar3ryca+site%253Anarkive.com>
<https://www.google.com/search?q=lar3ryca+alt.free.newsservers+site%253Anarkive.com>

Sigh. We're left with dejagoogle alone for a _direct_ free general purpose registration free Usenet search engine then... unless you have better ideas (where I'm aware every nntp server provides their own private archives).

I apologize for my mistake in not testing the narkive (mostly I use the dejagoogle archives when I need to find & then link to a specific thread).
--
Posted out of the goodness of my heart to disseminate useful information
which, in this case, is to faithfully test out the narkive search finding.

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Bertel Lund Hansen <gadekryds@lundhansen.dk> writes:

Den 29.03.2023 kl. 23.14 skrev Sn!pe:

We need Deja-News.

Yes.
IMO when Goggle borged DejaNews marks the moment they became
evil.

No, that happened later. In the beginning Google supplied the same
services as deja-News had done.

When A happened, some - many in my sphere - were saying B would
*inevitably* happen. If you're saying that the bad thing only happened at
the point where B happened, then you are naive, and really have no right
to pontificate, as you clearly have no understanding how the real world
works.

Fuck, I bet you believed that *do no evil* crap too.

Phil
--
We are no longer hunters and nomads. No longer awed and frightened, as we have gained some understanding of the world in which we live. As such, we can cast aside childish remnants from the dawn of our civilization.
-- NotSanguine on SoylentNews, after Eugen Weber in /The Western Tradition/

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Den 01.04.2023 kl. 11.47 skrev Phil Carmody:

When A happened, some - many in my sphere - were saying B would
*inevitably* happen. If you're saying that the bad thing only happened at the point where B happened, then you are naive, and really have no right
to pontificate, as you clearly have no understanding how the real world works.

Fuck, I bet you believed that *do no evil* crap too.

[Straightening the little hair I have left]

What happened? ...

--
Bertel, Denmark

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