Also, is ffm.* (Frankfurt/M) still active and managed?
The arcornews.de web site no longer exists.
As for z-netz.*, http://www.z-netz.de/ exists and mentions Dirk Meyer's
mail in dinoex.sub.org but the related FTP site no longer exists:
http://usenet.trigofacile.com/hierarchies/index.py?see=Z-NETZ
Hi all,
In case you have any information to share about the following
hierarchies, do not hesitate to tell.
I speak about them because control.ctl mentions a dead FTP link in >control.ctl.
I've seen that the UK ISP Demon Internet no longer exists in the form of
the demon.co.uk domain (closed in 2020). Should the demon.* hierarchy
still therefore be considered as managed?
Wouldn't it be unmanaged or defunct now?
http://usenet.trigofacile.com/hierarchies/index.py?see=DEMON
Also, is ffm.* (Frankfurt/M) still active and managed?
The arcornews.de web site no longer exists.
http://usenet.trigofacile.com/hierarchies/index.py?see=FFM
The or.kr web site mentioned for han.* also no longer exists...
http://usenet.trigofacile.com/hierarchies/index.py?see=HAN
Same thing for ftp.medlux.ru for medlux.*:
http://usenet.trigofacile.com/hierarchies/index.py?see=MEDLUX
And relcom.ru for relcom.*:
http://usenet.trigofacile.com/hierarchies/index.py?see=RELCOM
As for cz.*, ftp.vslib.cz no longer exists; and the new tul.cz web site
does not return anything if I search "newsgroups":
http://usenet.trigofacile.com/hierarchies/index.py?see=CZ
I would suggest for all these sites to remove their FTP links (or update
them in case someone knows working links). And maybe make these
hierarchies (at least) unmanaged without PGP key.
As for z-netz.*, http://www.z-netz.de/ exists and mentions Dirk Meyer's
mail in dinoex.sub.org but the related FTP site no longer exists:
http://usenet.trigofacile.com/hierarchies/index.py?see=Z-NETZ
(I've just sent him a mail. I'll report if I get an answer.)
P.-S.: Only ftp.isc.org and ftp.fu-berlin.de sites are still good (via >https). Not surprising, though, as they're known to be active :)
I've seen that the UK ISP Demon Internet no longer exists in the form
of the demon.co.uk domain (closed in 2020). Should the demon.*
hierarchy still therefore be considered as managed?
Wouldn't it be unmanaged or defunct now?
http://usenet.trigofacile.com/hierarchies/index.py?see=DEMON
Also, is ffm.* (Frankfurt/M) still active and managed?
The arcornews.de web site no longer exists.
The groups look mostly empty to me. I'll contact the last known maintainer and report back.
As for z-netz.*, http://www.z-netz.de/ exists and mentions Dirk Meyer's
mail in dinoex.sub.org but the related FTP site no longer exists:
http://usenet.trigofacile.com/hierarchies/index.py?see=Z-NETZ
<ftp://ftp.dinoex.de/pub/keys/z-netz.koordination.user+sysops.asc> works
for me.
I've seen that the UK ISP Demon Internet no longer exists in the form
of the demon.co.uk domain (closed in 2020). Should the demon.*
hierarchy still therefore be considered as managed?
Wouldn't it be unmanaged or defunct now?
As a former Demon user and also a user of the demon.* hierarchy, I'd
have thought that yes, it should be considered to be unmanaged. After a succession of take-overs, Demon finished up as part of Vodafone which,
as you say, finally killed off the last services under the Demon name in 2020. By that point, I doubt whether there was anyone left at Vodafone
who even knew what newsgroups were, let alone that there were some that
they were theoretically responsible for managing.
Hi John,
I've seen that the UK ISP Demon Internet no longer exists in theAs a former Demon user and also a user of the demon.* hierarchy, I'd
form of the demon.co.uk domain (closed in 2020). Should the demon.* >>>hierarchy still therefore be considered as managed?
Wouldn't it be unmanaged or defunct now?
have thought that yes, it should be considered to be unmanaged. After
a succession of take-overs, Demon finished up as part of Vodafone
which, as you say, finally killed off the last services under the
Demon name in 2020. By that point, I doubt whether there was anyone
left at Vodafone who even knew what newsgroups were, let alone that
there were some that they were theoretically responsible for managing.
Thanks for your message.
The demon.* hierarchy can therefore be considered historic or defunct.
Nothing is ever "defunct" as long as a newsgroup with the same canonical
name is created on multiple News sites and it's still possible to
exchange articles among peers.
Categorize it as a "former institutional hierarchy", stating when the institution closed. Lacking a hierarchy administrator, change
control.ctl to process no control messages at all.
I would suggest for all these sites to remove their FTP links (or update
them in case someone knows working links). And maybe make these
hierarchies (at least) unmanaged without PGP key.
As I said before, change the entry so that no control messages are automatically processed because these are former institutional
hierarchies no longer administered by their institutions, or the
institutions have gone out of businessness. I suggest that you do not
change them to unadministered.
The current categories I see are:
- managed hierarchies with signed control articles which will be
automatically processed (like news.*);
- managed hierarchies without PGP but with a doit entry related to a given
mail (like bln.*);
## * Some hierarchies are marked as *HISTORIC*. These hierarchies
## aren't entirely defunct, but they are very low-traffic, not widely
## read or carried, and may not be worth carrying. If you don't intend ## to carry them, comment out their entries.
microsoft.* may then belong to the historic category.
I'm way behind on, well, everything, but my intent is to disable the processing of control messages for every hierarchy that doesn't have PGP-signed control messages, probably the next time I make a new control-archive release. I can leave the entries in commented out, so
people can always uncomment them again if they want to, but I don't think I've seen any active issuance of unsigned control messages in a long time
and they're inherently a security risk.
Julien ÉLIE <iulius@nom-de-mon-site.com.invalid> writes:
The current categories I see are:
- managed hierarchies with signed control articles which will be
automatically processed (like news.*);
- managed hierarchies without PGP but with a doit entry related to a given >> mail (like bln.*);
I'm way behind on, well, everything, but my intent is to disable the processing of control messages for every hierarchy that doesn't have PGP-signed control messages, probably the next time I make a new control-archive release.
Russ Allbery <eagle@eyrie.org> wrote:
I'm way behind on, well, everything, but my intent is to disable the
processing of control messages for every hierarchy that doesn't have
PGP-signed control messages, probably the next time I make a new
control-archive release.
Then we should probably create and use a PGP key for bln.*. I'll put it
on our TODO list.
my intent is to disable the
processing of control messages for every hierarchy that doesn't have
PGP-signed control messages, probably the next time I make a new
control-archive release.
Then we should probably create and use a PGP key for bln.*. I'll put it
on our TODO list.
Ah, sorry, I must not have a propagation path for bln.* so I haven't seen those. But yes, I think it's time.
Then we should probably create and use a PGP key for bln.*. I'll put it on our TODO list.
Hi all,
As for cz.*, ftp.vslib.cz no longer exists; and the new tul.cz web site
does not return anything if I search "newsgroups":
http://usenet.trigofacile.com/hierarchies/index.py?see=CZ
Julien ÉLIE wrote:
Also, is ffm.* (Frankfurt/M) still active and managed?
The arcornews.de web site no longer exists.
The groups look mostly empty to me. I'll contact the last known maintainer and report back.
my intent is to disable the
processing of control messages for every hierarchy that doesn't have PGP-signed control messages, probably the next time I make a new control-archive release. I can leave the entries in commented out, so
people can always uncomment them again if they want to
. . .
I'm wondering whether it would be helpful to have in ftp.isc.org:
- a control.ctl file listing only hierarchies for which a control
article was sent during the last 10 years, and drop for the rest;
- a control-comprehensive.ctl file (or whatever name) with all known >hierarchies, and with a default to drop for actions not PGP-signed.
This way, it would simplify the default control.ctl file, and news
admins can better see what is still active.
Julien <iulius@nom-de-mon-site.com.invalid> wrote:[...]
I'm wondering whether it would be helpful to have in ftp.isc.org:
- a control.ctl file listing only hierarchies for which a control
article was sent during the last 10 years, and drop for the rest;
Please don't do that. Plenty of regional hierarchies lack hierarchy administrators.
If there comes a time for a new newsgroup, then declare a
hierarchy administrator for the purpose of issuing the newgroup.
Adam H. Kerman schrieb:
Julien <iulius@nom-de-mon-site.com.invalid> wrote:
[...]I'm wondering whether it would be helpful to have in ftp.isc.org:
- a control.ctl file listing only hierarchies for which a control
article was sent during the last 10 years, and drop for the rest;
Please don't do that. Plenty of regional hierarchies lack hierarchy >>administrators.
If there are no hierarchy administrators, nobody is sending control
messages, so those hierarchise don't need a control.ctl entry.
If there comes a time for a new newsgroup, then declare a
hierarchy administrator for the purpose of issuing the newgroup.
... and add them to control.ctl, as necessary.
(The old entries from last century won't match anyway.)
In the regional hierarchies I'm familiar with, the control messages
would be sent under the old credentials.
Taking the entry out and putting it back is hardly an instant process.
This is not a good idea.
Hi Adam,
In the regional hierarchies I'm familiar with, the control messages
would be sent under the old credentials.
Taking the entry out and putting it back is hardly an instant process.
This is not a good idea.
In this thread, we discussed about changing the default values of
control.ctl to disable the processing of control messages for every
hierarchy that doesn't have PGP-signed control messages.
Sending the messages under the old credentials won't work either...
That's why I suggested to even go a bit further and no longer provide
these entries in the control.ctl file to simplify it.
Of course a full version of control.ctl can still be generated. News
admins can then choose between the stripped version with only still
active hierarchies, and the comprehensive version of more than 2700 lines...
At least with the old credentials remaining in control.ctl, even if
commented out, a newgroup message sent with the old credentials might
give a News administrator more confidence that the proposed newsgroup
went through some legitimate process to form a consensus that discussion
on that topic might more to the proposed newsgroup, and that it's not
being done for petty or spiteful reasons.
The issue of whether a
technically proficient hierarchy administrator exists for a regional hierarchy is not any kind of hint to a News administrator that he should create groups in that hierarchy.
I am going to remind you of a regional hierarchy that was well known for being administered by technically-proficient people that had established PGP-signed control messages, but the key was lost. I'm not going to name
the parties but given that most regional hierarchies have a fairly
stable set of newsgroups and might not change for close to a decade,
loss of the key is a real possibility.
Hi Adam,
At least with the old credentials remaining in control.ctl, even if >>commented out, a newgroup message sent with the old credentials might
give a News administrator more confidence that the proposed newsgroup
went through some legitimate process to form a consensus that discussion
on that topic might more to the proposed newsgroup, and that it's not
being done for petty or spiteful reasons.
Thanks for your detailed answer.
I'm wondering whether we shouldn't encourage people willing to have the >"latest known" list of newsgroups of regional hierarchies to just sync
their list with the active and newsgroups file in ftp.isc.org?
Once a week for instance they just run a tool which does that job (INN
comes with actsync to achieve that, but one can write his own tool if he >wants).
I am under the impression it will be easier to get the ftp.isc.org files >right and up-to-date, especially when there's a change in a control.ctl >entry, than hoping every news admin to update their control.ctl file and >keys.
Some news admins may want to set up processing control articles, and
follow up on control.ctl changes, but others may just want to sync their >list. It seems to be less burden.
The issue of whether a
technically proficient hierarchy administrator exists for a regional >>hierarchy is not any kind of hint to a News administrator that he should >>create groups in that hierarchy.
I see your point.
I was trying to find a way to improve and facilitate the updates.
I am going to remind you of a regional hierarchy that was well known for >>being administered by technically-proficient people that had established >>PGP-signed control messages, but the key was lost. I'm not going to name >>the parties but given that most regional hierarchies have a fairly
stable set of newsgroups and might not change for close to a decade,
loss of the key is a real possibility.
I totally see :-)
I'm unclear on what Russ's plan to require PGP-signed control messages
will mean for processing control messages at ftp.isc.org with respect to archiving and updating the two files.
You could be right. I just don't see the issue getting fixed, given that
some control messages aren't archived, some instances in which there
were no newgroup messages, and missing or lousy syntax of the For your newsgroups file line.
It would have been nice if the person issuing the control message
checked the archive to make sure it was acted upon as expected.
"Adam H. Kerman" <ahk@chinet.com> writes:
I'm unclear on what Russ's plan to require PGP-signed control messages
will mean for processing control messages at ftp.isc.org with respect to >>archiving and updating the two files.
I'm happy to keep archiving everything, signed or not, as long as
ftp.isc.org is willing to serve it, since it's entirely automated and I
don't think I spend even an hour a year on it. (Should they ever stop >providing hosting, the archive will probably disappear, since I'm not
willing to deal with the hassle and potential legal liability of hosting
any sort of archive personally. But so far they seem happy to keep doing >it.)
. . .
Will unsigned control messages with For your newsgroups file lines in
good syntax update active and newsgroups?
Russ Allbery <eagle@eyrie.org> wrote:
Currently, this is a very theoretical concern, since (per the previous
discussion) I don't believe anyone is issuing unsigned control messages
for anything other than alt.* and free.* (and I haven't seen a new
alt.* control message for a while). If it becomes a practical problem
in some regional hierarchy, just email usenet-config@isc.org and I'm
sure we can sort things out. I have frequently made manual updates to
regional hierarchies in the past when it was too difficult to sort out
the control messages for whatever reason.
This will then make you hierarchy administrator for a whole lot of hierarchies.
Could you at least require the proponent or self-declared hierarchy administrator to issue an unsigned control message to get archived with
the newsgroups file line in good syntax before you make the manual
change? That there's no archived control message in all circumstances
has not been helpful.
"Adam H. Kerman" <ahk@chinet.com> writes:
Will unsigned control messages with For your newsgroups file lines in
good syntax update active and newsgroups?
For alt.* and free.*, yes. For everything else, not once I get a chance
to do a new control-archive release and require PGP.
Currently, this is a very theoretical concern, since (per the previous >discussion) I don't believe anyone is issuing unsigned control messages
for anything other than alt.* and free.* (and I haven't seen a new alt.* >control message for a while). If it becomes a practical problem in some >regional hierarchy, just email usenet-config@isc.org and I'm sure we can
sort things out. I have frequently made manual updates to regional >hierarchies in the past when it was too difficult to sort out the control >messages for whatever reason.
As for z-netz.*, http://www.z-netz.de/ exists and mentions Dirk Meyer's
mail in dinoex.sub.org but the related FTP site no longer exists:
   http://usenet.trigofacile.com/hierarchies/index.py?see=Z-NETZ
<ftp://ftp.dinoex.de/pub/keys/z-netz.koordination.user+sysops.asc> works
for me.
Oh yes, indeed. Just tested, it also works.
As for cz.*, ftp.vslib.cz no longer exists; and the new tul.cz web site
does not return anything if I search "newsgroups":
http://usenet.trigofacile.com/hierarchies/index.py?see=CZ
Let me ask around about this one tomorrow at work. I know some people who might know some people, etc.
I don't believe anyone is issuing unsigned control messages
for anything other than alt.* and free.* (and I haven't seen a new alt.* control message for a while).
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