A tale of caution for tap to pay access to ATM's.
Apparently the scam goes as follows:
- scammers put glue in the card slot
- you try to insert your card
- someone "helpfully" points out that you can use your chipped card to log in - you do so and complete your business.
- walk away.
However, unlike an inserted card transaction, people have walked off w/o "logging off" (answering the "Anything else?" query). With a card you have to do so to get your card back. Not with tap to pay (there is no "untap" after all)...
Then the perps rummage through your account and withdraw more money...
And yes, if you "log in" with your Apple Watch you're a potential victim of this scam too.
So - if forced to use tap-to-pay to log into an ATM - keep your head about you and maybe tip off a cop to the operation going on...
In passing it would be somewhat trivial to use video processing to close the session when people walk away ...
Alan Browne wrote:
I don't even remember the last time I used an ATM. When I need cash I
just ask for some when buying groceries (paying debit). I walk around
with $20 .. $40. I used to keep extra cash hidden in the car, but
stopped years ago.
How nice for you.
But some people do use ATMs, else atms would have disappeared like phone booths.
Alan, have you ever thought about anyone other than yourself. It can be
quite an experience.
On 2023-03-09 16:34, Tor Abrax wrote:
A tale of caution for tap to pay access to ATM's.
Apparently the scam goes as follows:
- scammers put glue in the card slot
- you try to insert your card
- someone "helpfully" points out that you can use your chipped
card to log in
- you do so and complete your business.
- walk away.
However, unlike an inserted card transaction, people have walked
off w/o "logging off" (answering the "Anything else?" query).
With a card you have to do so to get your card back. Not with
tap to pay (there is no "untap" after all)...
Then the perps rummage through your account and withdraw more
money...
And yes, if you "log in" with your Apple Watch you're a potential
victim of this scam too.
So - if forced to use tap-to-pay to log into an ATM - keep your
head about you and maybe tip off a cop to the operation going on...
In passing it would be somewhat trivial to use video processing
to close the session when people walk away ...
Main take is "if the situation is unusual - walk away".
Or at least be extra-cautious when "helpful" people are about.
I don't even remember the last time I used an ATM. When I need
cash I just ask for some when buying groceries (paying debit). I
walk around with $20 .. $40. I used to keep extra cash hidden in
the car, but stopped years ago.
But some people do use ATMs, else atms would have disappeared like
phone booths.
In passing it would be somewhat trivial to use video processing to close the session when people walk away ...
Torvald
On 3/9/2023 1:34 PM, Tor Abrax wrote:
<snip>
In passing it would be somewhat trivial to use video processing to close
the session when people walk away ...
Torvald
Interesting. Never thought of that risk with NFC ATM access.
The huge risk in the U.S. is handing your card to a restaurant worker to
take to the back for you to pay.
For some reason, not many restaurants
in the U.S. are using handheld terminals so you can pay at your table
with a phone or credit card,
though some now allow you to use ToastTab
to pay with your phone by scanning a QR code on your bill.
sms <scharf.steven@geemail.com> wrote:
On 3/9/2023 1:34 PM, Tor Abrax wrote:
<snip>
In passing it would be somewhat trivial to use video processing to close >>> the session when people walk away ...
Torvald
Interesting. Never thought of that risk with NFC ATM access.
The huge risk in the U.S. is handing your card to a restaurant worker to
take to the back for you to pay.
That's why in Europe, for example, we've had the technology to pay without your card leaving your possession for well over 10 years.
For some reason, not many restaurants
in the U.S. are using handheld terminals so you can pay at your table
with a phone or credit card,
Often here you can simply go to the till and pay on your way out. Handhelds aren't always necessary.
though some now allow you to use ToastTab
to pay with your phone by scanning a QR code on your bill.
These app-based systems which have become prevalent since covid which
usually are a pain and require you to create an account.
Am 10.03.23 um 21:04 schrieb Chris:
sms <scharf.steven@geemail.com> wrote:
On 3/9/2023 1:34 PM, Tor Abrax wrote:
<snip>
In passing it would be somewhat trivial to use video processing to close >>>> the session when people walk away ...
Torvald
Interesting. Never thought of that risk with NFC ATM access.
The huge risk in the U.S. is handing your card to a restaurant worker to >>> take to the back for you to pay.
That's why in Europe, for example, we've had the technology to pay without >> your card leaving your possession for well over 10 years.
+1; 20 years
For some reason, not many restaurants
in the U.S. are using handheld terminals so you can pay at your table
with a phone or credit card,
Often here you can simply go to the till and pay on your way out. Handhelds >> aren't always necessary.
though some now allow you to use ToastTab
to pay with your phone by scanning a QR code on your bill.
These app-based systems which have become prevalent since covid which
usually are a pain and require you to create an account.
In addition to credit and debit cards we have Twint in Switzerland which
is an cash-app that transfers cash form the bank of the buyer to the
merchant or the restaurant within seconds. Works also between privat
persons.
The money can be used immediately. No delay and no fee for
private persons. Became very popular. More than 50% of the population
use it regularly. Parking tickets and a lot of other small change items
can also be settled that way.
I use teller machines 4-5x a year max. since Twint took the market and
killed Google and Apple Pay which are very cumbersome in comparison.
Joerg Lorenz <hugybear@gmx.ch> wrote:
Am 10.03.23 um 21:04 schrieb Chris:
sms <scharf.steven@geemail.com> wrote:
On 3/9/2023 1:34 PM, Tor Abrax wrote:
<snip>
In passing it would be somewhat trivial to use video processing to close >>>>> the session when people walk away ...
Torvald
Interesting. Never thought of that risk with NFC ATM access.
The huge risk in the U.S. is handing your card to a restaurant worker to >>>> take to the back for you to pay.
That's why in Europe, for example, we've had the technology to pay without >>> your card leaving your possession for well over 10 years.
+1; 20 years
That is a big win. In the UK there isn't a good solution for seamless transfers between individuals. You either have to sign up to a third party
or know the recipients bank details. We did have a system via mobiles but
is closing this month due to lack of use.
I wouldn't say Apple Pay is cumbersome. If I could use to give money to people with no fee that would be great.
In article <tuk5vu$30nnm$1@dont-email.me>, Chris <ithinkiam@gmail.com>
wrote:
I wouldn't say Apple Pay is cumbersome. If I could use to give money to
people with no fee that would be great.
that's what tap to pay is for.
I wouldn't say Apple Pay is cumbersome. If I could use to give money to people with no fee that would be great.
I wouldn't say Apple Pay is cumbersome. If I could use to give money to
people with no fee that would be great.
that's what tap to pay is for.
Care to elaborate? AIUI it is not for giving money to individuals e.g. a friend.
On 2023-03-12 05:28, Chris wrote:
Joerg Lorenz <hugybear@gmx.ch> wrote:
Am 10.03.23 um 21:04 schrieb Chris:
sms <scharf.steven@geemail.com> wrote:
On 3/9/2023 1:34 PM, Tor Abrax wrote:
<snip>
In passing it would be somewhat trivial to use video processing to close >>>>>> the session when people walk away ...
Torvald
Interesting. Never thought of that risk with NFC ATM access.
The huge risk in the U.S. is handing your card to a restaurant worker to >>>>> take to the back for you to pay.
That's why in Europe, for example, we've had the technology to pay without >>>> your card leaving your possession for well over 10 years.
+1; 20 years
Canada too. The big holdout in the world for chipped cards was the US because there are so many banks and credit unions, many of them small,
that they balked at the implementation costs.
That is a big win. In the UK there isn't a good solution for seamless
transfers between individuals. You either have to sign up to a third party >> or know the recipients bank details. We did have a system via mobiles but
is closing this month due to lack of use.
Nice system in Canada is Interac. It is owned by the big 5 banks + 30
or so smaller banks. It's been used in commerce for 30+ years for debit
card payments and ATM withdrawals across banks.
Some while back (10+ years) they added the utility for personal
transfers. All I would need is your e-mail address. You would get an
e-mail with a link. You would log onto your bank account via that link
(many banks were presented as log in sites), then with a "shared secret"
you could "get" the funds.
This was fine, if a little clunky and not perfectly secure. If someone
could get to your e-mail and get the link and also guess or get the
secret, then the funds could be intercepted. This happened occasionally
as reported in the news.
A newer option (about 5 years old) is for you to register your e-mail
address via your bank with Interac (up to 5 e-mail addresses can be registered) and routed directly to the account of your choice. No
secret is needed since payments to that e-mail address can only go to
that specific bank account.
Transfers take seconds (95%) to 30 minutes to process.
I wouldn't say Apple Pay is cumbersome. If I could use to give money to
people with no fee that would be great.
Not available in Canada yet - prob'y because of the banks.
Alan Browne <bitbucket@blackhole.com> wrote:
On 2023-03-12 05:28, Chris wrote:
I wouldn't say Apple Pay is cumbersome. If I could use to give money to
people with no fee that would be great. <--- [AAA]
Not available in Canada yet - prob'y because of the banks.
You mean Apple pay isn't available at all in Canada? What if I came over
with my tap to pay debit card via Apple pay shouldn't that just work?
Ironically, I tried to use my Apple phone to pay at many places in the
US and it would not work in several. One lady thought I was trying to
scam her.
And I crashed one of the terminals (entire cash register system) in a
shoe store with it.
In article <vcmPL.270840$5S78.52355@fx48.iad>, Alan Browne <bitbucket@blackhole.com> wrote:
Ironically, I tried to use my Apple phone to pay at many places in the
US and it would not work in several. One lady thought I was trying to
scam her.
that must have been quite some time ago. apple pay is common, much more
so after the pandemic where stores preferred contactless be used, and
someone thinking it's a scam would be highly unusual.
And I crashed one of the terminals (entire cash register system) in a
shoe store with it.
likely unrelated to you being from canada.
In article <1FmPL.260890$Olad.53064@fx35.iad>, Alan Browne <bitbucket@blackhole.com> wrote:
And I crashed one of the terminals (entire cash register system) in a
shoe store with it.
likely unrelated to you being from canada.
Likely related to the terminal's card interface not being compatible
with Apple Pay's NFC at the time.
there's nothing unique about apple pay's nfc. it uses industry standard
emv and even worked in places before it was officially rolled out.
***
PS: Your time stamp is 1 hour ahead.
thanks for reminding me to fix that.
the problem is that mac os caches time zones for some fucked up reason,
which causes some apps to have the wrong time. a quit/relaunch gets the proper time (at least until the next time change). the bug has been
there since the first mac os x and likely will remain there forever.
the real fun is flying across time zones, where files can be modified
in the future or before the previous modification time.
And I crashed one of the terminals (entire cash register system) in a
shoe store with it.
likely unrelated to you being from canada.
Likely related to the terminal's card interface not being compatible
with Apple Pay's NFC at the time.
***
PS: Your time stamp is 1 hour ahead.
On 2023-03-12 11:18, Chris wrote:
Alan Browne <bitbucket@blackhole.com> wrote:
On 2023-03-12 05:28, Chris wrote:
I wouldn't say Apple Pay is cumbersome. If I could use to give money to >>>> people with no fee that would be great. <--- [AAA]
Not available in Canada yet - prob'y because of the banks.
You mean Apple pay isn't available at all in Canada? What if I came over
with my tap to pay debit card via Apple pay shouldn't that just work?
Apple Pay is definitely available and has been for several years. Will
work anywhere you can "tap to pay".
But cannot use it for person to person cash transfers which was your proposition. [AAA] above.
...
Ironically, I tried to use my Apple phone to pay at many places in the
US and it would not work in several. One lady thought I was trying to
scam her.
In article <tukq74$345eb$1@dont-email.me>, Chris <ithinkiam@gmail.com>
wrote:
I wouldn't say Apple Pay is cumbersome. If I could use to give money to >>>> people with no fee that would be great.
that's what tap to pay is for.
Care to elaborate? AIUI it is not for giving money to individuals e.g. a
friend.
it's intended for businesses, but that doesn't mean individuals are
excluded. they do need an app that supports it, however.
It didn't work at all when I was in the US in 2019. I tried several places and it just wasn't accepted. I had to either use cash or my physical credit card with a stupid signature.
the problem is that mac os caches time zones for some fucked up reason, which causes some apps to have the wrong time. a quit/relaunch gets the proper time (at least until the next time change). the bug has been
there since the first mac os x and likely will remain there forever.
I don't recall any such issue here. Your newsreader perhaps?
Do you use NTP?
the real fun is flying across time zones, where files can be modified
in the future or before the previous modification time.
Again no issue that I recall - but don't travel much with a Mac.
Alan Browne <bitbucket@blackhole.com> wrote:
On 2023-03-12 11:18, Chris wrote:
Alan Browne <bitbucket@blackhole.com> wrote:
On 2023-03-12 05:28, Chris wrote:
I wouldn't say Apple Pay is cumbersome. If I could use to give money to >>>>> people with no fee that would be great. <--- [AAA]
Not available in Canada yet - prob'y because of the banks.
You mean Apple pay isn't available at all in Canada? What if I came over >>> with my tap to pay debit card via Apple pay shouldn't that just work?
Apple Pay is definitely available and has been for several years. Will
work anywhere you can "tap to pay".
But cannot use it for person to person cash transfers which was your
proposition. [AAA] above.
Ah OK. That's like everywhere isn't it?
...
Ironically, I tried to use my Apple phone to pay at many places in the
US and it would not work in several. One lady thought I was trying to
scam her.
It didn't work at all when I was in the US in 2019. I tried several places and it just wasn't accepted. I had to either use cash or my physical credit card with a stupid signature.
In article <tukv31$34vps$1@dont-email.me>, Chris <ithinkiam@gmail.com>
wrote:
It didn't work at all when I was in the US in 2019. I tried several places >> and it just wasn't accepted. I had to either use cash or my physical credit >> card with a stupid signature.
that's your bank, not apple pay.
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