Hello,

After each boot, the equivalent of apt update is automatically done in background, through policykit (apt database is locked by policykitd). So
I think there is a timer triggroing this. I'd like to disable this when
my laptop is on expensive link (eg 4G link, or abroad). So I'd like to
disable this timer, but I did not find it. If someone knws better than me...


--
Erwan David

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Erwan David <erwan@rail.eu.org> writes:

Hello,

After each boot, the equivalent of apt update is automatically done in background, through policykit (apt database is locked by
policykitd). So I think there is a timer triggroing this. I'd like to
disable this when my laptop is on expensive link (eg 4G link, or
abroad). So I'd like to disable this timer, but I did not find it. If
someone knws better than me...

If you're using the package unattended-upgrades (I'm not sure it ties to policykitd), then there are instructions in the Debian wiki at https://wiki.debian.org/UnattendedUpgrades#Modifying_download_and_upgrade_schedules_.28on_systemd.29

The timers in question are apt-daily.timer and apt-daily-upgrade.timer.

Come to think of it, just running apt update shouldn't generate much
traffic.

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Le 19/02/2024 à 18:00, Max Nikulin a écrit :

On 19/02/2024 14:35, Erwan David wrote:

After each boot, the equivalent of apt update is automatically done
in background, through policykit (apt database is locked by
policykitd). So I think there is a timer triggroing this. I'd like to
disable this when my laptop is on expensive link (eg 4G link, or
abroad). So I'd like to disable this timer, but I did not find it. If
someone knws better than me...

Perhaps I missed something since I have no idea why policykit (or
polkit?) is involved.

You may disable apt timers

    systemctl disable --now apt-daily.timer apt-daily-upgrade.timer

Perhaps it is possible to write a script that will respect
connection.metered property set by NetworkManager.

Sorry il was packagekit, I made a mistake while writing.

I disable the timers, thanks

I'll have a look at connection.metered

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Hi,

On Mon, Feb 19, 2024 at 08:35:18PM +0100, Erwan David wrote:

Sorry il was packagekit, I made a mistake while writing.

If it's packagekit then isn't it going to be some part of your
desktop environment? Which desktop environment are you using?

GNOME will download updates and prompt you to install. To disable this open "GNOME software",m burger menu, "Update Preferences".

The default behaviour of GNOME Software is to only download upgrades when on an unmetered connection so if you are using GNOME and this is what is happening, then as Max says telling NetworkManager that your connection is metered should stop it.

I disable the timers, thanks

I don't think it's any of the systemd timers or unattended-upgrades.

Thanks,
Andy

--
https://bitfolk.com/ -- No-nonsense VPS hosting

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On Tue, Feb 20, 2024 at 09:20:11AM +0700, Max Nikulin wrote:

    systemctl disable --now apt-daily.timer apt-daily-upgrade.timer

To avoid confusion, these timers are from the apt package, not from unattended-upgrades. So they are active on most Debian hosts.

Holy crap... when did this happen?

I tried looking on salsa and it looks like the 1.8.y branch has these
files, but the jessie branch does not. But I don't know where the
"preset: enabled" thing comes from. So maybe the files were there but
not enabled by default until recently? Maybe?

Does anyone know when these things changed, and why on earth nobody
knew about it?! Did I miss a section in the release notes or something?

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Hi,

On Mon, Feb 19, 2024 at 10:21:24PM -0500, Greg Wooledge wrote:

Does anyone know when these things changed, and why on earth nobody
knew about it?! Did I miss a section in the release notes or something?

Why are you shocked by this? Most of it is disabled by default (no
update / upgrade / unattended-upgrade). You have to set things like APT::Periodic::Update-Package-Lists to 1.

It's been there since Debian 9 (stretch) IIRC.

The handbook has stuff about it.

https://debian-handbook.info/browse/stable/sect.regular-upgrades.html

Thanks,
Andy

--
https://bitfolk.com/ -- No-nonsense VPS hosting

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On Tue, Feb 20, 2024 at 03:56:49AM +0000, Andy Smith wrote:

On Mon, Feb 19, 2024 at 10:21:24PM -0500, Greg Wooledge wrote:

Does anyone know when these things changed, and why on earth nobody
knew about it?! Did I miss a section in the release notes or something?

Why are you shocked by this? Most of it is disabled by default (no
update / upgrade / unattended-upgrade). You have to set things like APT::Periodic::Update-Package-Lists to 1.

It's been there since Debian 9 (stretch) IIRC.

The handbook has stuff about it.

https://debian-handbook.info/browse/stable/sect.regular-upgrades.html

According to this page, the configuration is in
/etc/apt/apt.conf.d/10periodic (which does not exist on my system).

Also according to this page, there is a script in /usr/lib/apt/apt.systemd.daily which describes the configuration
variables (this script does exist).

According to the /usr/lib/apt/apt.systemd.daily script, the /etc/apt/apt.conf.d/10periodic file has to be created if you want to
change the defaults. OK.

Also according to that script, the default values are listed in the
comments of said script.

These comments include:

# APT::Periodic::Enable "1";
# - Enable the update/upgrade script (0=disable)

which, if I'm reading this correctly, says that this thing is enabled
by default. "This thing" being an "update/upgrade script". Whatever
that means.

The comments also include:

# APT::Periodic::Update-Package-Lists "0";
# - Do "apt-get update" automatically every n-days (0=disable)
#
# APT::Periodic::Download-Upgradeable-Packages "0";
# - Do "apt-get upgrade --download-only" every n-days (0=disable)

I'm not sure how to interpret this combination of things. Do these
default settings mean "the update/upgrade script will run, but it won't actually do anything"?

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Le 20/02/2024 à 01:58, Andy Smith a écrit :

Hi,

On Mon, Feb 19, 2024 at 08:35:18PM +0100, Erwan David wrote:

Sorry il was packagekit, I made a mistake while writing.

If it's packagekit then isn't it going to be some part of your
desktop environment? Which desktop environment are you using?

GNOME will download updates and prompt you to install. To disable this open "GNOME software",m burger menu, "Update Preferences".

The default behaviour of GNOME Software is to only download upgrades when on an
unmetered connection so if you are using GNOME and this is what is happening, then as Max says telling NetworkManager that your connection is metered should
stop it.

I disable the timers, thanks

I don't think it's any of the systemd timers or unattended-upgrades.

Thanks,
Andy

I use KDE, and I do not know wether discover does an update by itself. I
do not thind any setting about this

--
Erwan David

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Le 20/02/2024 à 03:20, Max Nikulin a écrit :

On 20/02/2024 02:35, Erwan David wrote:

Le 19/02/2024 à 18:00, Max Nikulin a écrit :

    systemctl disable --now apt-daily.timer apt-daily-upgrade.timer

Perhaps it is possible to write a script that will respect
connection.metered property set by NetworkManager.

I disable the timers, thanks

To avoid confusion, these timers are from the apt package, not from unattended-upgrades. So they are active on most Debian hosts. Desktop environments may display notifications after actions initiated by
these timers. Likely desktop environments may do more, e.g. to query
GNOME application shop for updates and initiate more frequent updates.

I'll have a look at connection.metered

Out of curiosity I have queried https://codesearch.debian.net. It
seems, apt has no notion of metered connection. Perhaps the effect can
be achieved by adding to unit configuration some Condition* mentioned
in systemd.directives(7)

https://stackoverflow.com/questions/43228973/detect-if-current-connection-is-metered-with-networkmanager

busctl get-property \
  org.freedesktop.NetworkManager \
  /org/freedesktop/NetworkManager \
  org.freedesktop.NetworkManager Metered

It would also require to configure NetworkManager to set this correctly.
Eg When I use USB tethering. (same NetworkManager connexion may be used
at different places, without any way to simply detect this, when you do
not use Wifi)

--
Erwan David

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On Tuesday, February 20, 2024 5:23:35 AM CET, Greg Wooledge wrote:

I'm not sure how to interpret this combination of things. Do these
default settings mean "the update/upgrade script will run, but it won't actually do anything"?

kind of...

lines 354-360 (on bookworm) of said script (/usr/lib/apt/apt.systemd.daily) checks if 'APT::Periodic::Enable' is set to 1. if not, the script exits
with 0:

# check if the user really wants to do something
AutoAptEnable=1 # default is yes
eval $(apt-config shell AutoAptEnable APT::Periodic::Enable)

if [ $AutoAptEnable -eq 0 ]; then
exit 0
fi

i very much dislike the fact that my systems do things i am not aware of. i don't mind if this timer/service exists, but i do not want it to be enabled
by default. especially if its default setting is to do nothing (useful, critical, necessary)! why add complication to a system and waste its
resources if it defaults to not doing anything? why not add .timer and .service, but keep it disabled by default? admin's choice...

imho it is even easier and more intuitive to enable the timer than to add a file in which i change/set an option to prevent an already started process
to exit prematurely having already wasted system resources.

but that's just me. ymmv...

greetings...

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Hi,

On Tue, Feb 20, 2024 at 10:17:17AM +0100, Michael wrote:

i very much dislike the fact that my systems do things i am not aware of.

I think one of the purposes of a Linux distribution is to pull
together a collection of disparate software of their choosing and
make default decisions for their users.

I find it hard to believe that you bother to delve into the
behaviour of your system in most other ways, but suddenly you've
become aware of a systemd timer and now it's a problem for you. None
of this is hidden. You've been able to read this script and work out
how it works.

Do you also build your own kernels so you can personally sign off on
every kernel config choice, or do you trust the Debian kernel team's
ideas about what should be built in, modularised or not available at
all?

For me it's a problem when things can't be customised. I expect
default choices to be made but I don't expect to agree with 100% of
them. That's OK.

Thanks,
Andy

--
https://bitfolk.com/ -- No-nonsense VPS hosting

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Hi,

On Tue, Feb 20, 2024 at 08:52:09AM +0100, Erwan David wrote:

I use KDE, and I do not know wether discover does an update by itself. I do not thind any setting about this

I think it is very likely that KDE has an equivalent to GNOME, which
does the equivalent of "apt update" every day and then notifies you
about available package upgrades.

Thanks,
Andy

--
https://bitfolk.com/ -- No-nonsense VPS hosting

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On Tue, Feb 20, 2024 at 11:39:56AM +0000, Andy Smith wrote:

On Tue, Feb 20, 2024 at 10:17:17AM +0100, Michael wrote:

i very much dislike the fact that my systems do things i am not aware of.

I think one of the purposes of a Linux distribution is to pull
together a collection of disparate software of their choosing and
make default decisions for their users.

I find it hard to believe that you bother to delve into the
behaviour of your system in most other ways, but suddenly you've
become aware of a systemd timer and now it's a problem for you. None
of this is hidden. You've been able to read this script and work out
how it works.

For me, it's a combination of two things:

1) This apt-daily.timer stuff is quite complex and difficult to discover
and understand. Most subsystems have a single configuration file
that controls what they do, and it's in some place that's relatively
easy to find.

This thing has no configuration file by default; you have to read the
comments in the software itself to figure out what it does.

2) In the absence of a full understanding, it's easy to suspect that these
timers will download package lists and/or packages from the Internet.
That's what the names imply, after all.

Here's what the end user (me) sees upon first inspection:

* apt-daily.timer is enabled (by default)
* apt-daily.timer runs twice a day
* apt-daily.service has Description=Daily apt download activities
* apt-daily.service runs "/usr/lib/apt/apt-helper wait-online"
and then "/usr/lib/apt/apt.systemd.daily update"

If the end user doesn't actually read through this 538 line shell
script to analyze its behavior, this all *looks* very much like
"run apt update twice a day".

Likewise, there's a second timer:

* apt-daily-upgrade.timer is enabled (by default)
* apt-daily-upgrade.timer runs once a day
* apt-daily-upgrade.service has
Description=Daily apt upgrade and clean activities
* apt-daily-upgrade.service runs "/usr/lib/apt/apt-helper wait-online"
and then "/usr/lib/apt/apt.systemd.daily install"

As with the other timer and service, this all looks very much like it
will upgrade packages, once a day.

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On Tue, Feb 20, 2024 at 07:44:55AM -0500, Greg Wooledge wrote:

[...]

For me, it's a combination of two things:

1) This apt-daily.timer stuff is quite complex and difficult to discover
and understand [...]

I gather this from the thread, yes. I just checked, and the scripts
come with apt -- but they are ineffective if one is "on" SysV init.

All is well. Phew ;-)

Cheers
--
t

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Le 20/02/2024 à 12:46, Andy Smith a écrit :

Hi,

On Tue, Feb 20, 2024 at 08:52:09AM +0100, Erwan David wrote:

I use KDE, and I do not know wether discover does an update by itself. I do >> not thind any setting about this

I think it is very likely that KDE has an equivalent to GNOME, which
does the equivalent of "apt update" every day and then notifies you
about available package upgrades.

Thanks,
Andy

Yes, and it seems to be plasma-discover. But I do noit find how to
configure it NOT to update package list automatically.

A systemctl --user list-units '*discover*'  gives
 UNIT                                                        LOAD
  ACTIVE SUB     DESCRIPTION
 app-org.kde.discover-5f3c6a37712a431b929cbe82aa9555dc.scope loaded
active running Discover - Logithèque
 app-org.kde.discover.notifier@autostart.service             loaded
active running Discover

a list-unit-files says the service is generated. I did nit find from
what it os generated.

There is /etc/xdg/autostart/org.kde.discover.notifier.desktop


which ends in


Exec=/usr/lib/x86_64-linux-gnu/libexec/DiscoverNotifier Icon=system-software-update
Type=Application
NoDisplay=true
X-KDE-autostart-phase=1
OnlyShowIn=KDE

DiscoverNotifier comes form the plasma-discover package

The pacakge contains a /usr/bin/plasma-discover-update binary, whose
name appears in DiscoverNotifier binary...


I'll try looking this way.


I would have preferred being able to disable it (especially because it
shows me a systray indication when there are upgradable packages) but if
it is not possible I can remove it (it won't remove the meta-packages of
the DE)

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Hello,

On Tue, Feb 20, 2024 at 07:44:55AM -0500, Greg Wooledge wrote:

This thing has no configuration file by default; you have to read the
comments in the software itself to figure out what it does.

Or, say, the Debian Administrator's Handbook.

https://www.debian.org/doc/manuals/debian-handbook/sect.regular-upgrades.en.html

The configuration options are also described in the man page for
apt.conf.

https://manpages.debian.org/bookworm/apt/apt.conf.5.en.html#PERIODIC_AND_ARCHIVES_OPTIONS

Thanks,
Andy

--
https://bitfolk.com/ -- No-nonsense VPS hosting

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