Hi!

Qt Transition ongoing. AFAIK that will be the intended version for next
stable.

On my system it would remove most of Plasma on a dist-upgrade. So give
it some time if its similar on your setup.

Best,
--
Martin

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Hi Martin,

thanks for the hint in things of QT version 5.15.7 transition.
This will require to rebuild KDE/Frameworks, KDE/Plasma and KDE/apps
(gears) and will take some time.

You can inform yourself about the transition status here:

Link: https://release.debian.org/transitions/html/qtbase-abi-5-15-7.html

Personally, I like to get informed by debian-kde maintainers or
mailing-list when the transition is over.

Kind regards,
-Sedat-

P.S.: If you are Debian/unstable AMD64 user and are experienced
enough, you can try on YOUR OWN RISK.

To pass daily dist-upgrades I did the following:

[ Set all QT v5.15.6 packages on hold ]
root# VER="5.15..6" ; for p in $( dpkg -l | grep $VER | awk '/^ii/
{print $2}' ) ; do echo "[ $p ]" ; echo "$p" "hold" | dpkg
--set-selections ; done

[ Archive packages on hold ]
root# dpkg --get-selections | grep hold > hold_2022-12-21.txt

[ Allow packages installation on (dist-)upgrade - e.g. when transition is over ]
root# for p in $( cat hold_2022-12-21.txt | awk '{print $1}' ) ; do
echo "[ $p ]" ; echo "$p" "install" | dpkg --set-selections ; do

[ Re-Hold packages if necessary ]
root# for p in $( cat hold_2022-12-21.txt | awk '{print $1}' ) ; do
echo "[ $p ]" ; echo "$p" "hold" | dpkg --set-selections ; do

Unfortunately, we have now the first re-build packages of
libkf5i18n5:amd64 from KDE/Framework coming to unstable.
So, you will need to put that on hold, too.
Otherwise packages will be removed - so BE CAREFUL.

-EOT-

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On Wed, Dec 21, 2022 at 11:42:17AM +0100, Diederik de Haas wrote:

On Wednesday, 21 December 2022 11:01:07 CET Sedat Dilek wrote:

P.S.: If you are Debian/unstable AMD64 user and are experienced
enough, you can try on YOUR OWN RISK.

To pass daily dist-upgrades I did the following:

[ Set all QT v5.15.6 packages on hold ]
root# VER="5.15..6" ; for p in $( dpkg -l | grep $VER | awk '/^ii/
{print $2}' ) ; do echo "[ $p ]" ; echo "$p" "hold" | dpkg
--set-selections ; done

I must be sounding like a broken record player (by now), but:

Stop using *dist-*upgrade by DEFAULT.

*AMEN* to that.

And apparently it's (also) needed to say that apt/apt-get/aptitude tells you what it's about to do. If it's telling you that it'll remove (almost) all of KDE and you don't want that, you can say 'No' and not go through with that.

The normal/safe-upgrade is what you should be using by default and only when you want to force something, you'd do a dist-/full-upgrade and then you evaluate what it's about to do and when you think "Yes, that's what I want", then and only then you go through with it.

Yes. Do apt upgrade to get the easy changes, try it again after it
finished. If it still wants to change something, THEN try apt
full-upgrade AND look what apt is suggesting to do. Use your own
judgement whether to allow apt full-upgrade to do what it intends to do.

You may also apt install manually some packages that apt upgrade won't
touch to see what the problem is. In many cases, it's just the change
from libfooX to libfooX+1 with a handful of affected packages, so you
can allow it togo ahead, but sometimes it's something like the current situation that would deinstall half of your system.

It's called unstable for a reason, it's supposed to be broken once in a
while.

Greetings
Marc


-- ----------------------------------------------------------------------------- Marc Haber | "I don't trust Computers. They | Mailadresse im Header Leimen, Germany | lose things." Winona Ryder | Fon: *49 6224 1600402 Nordisch by Nature | How to make an American Quilt | Fax: *49 6224 1600421

--- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
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On Wednesday, 21 December 2022 11:01:07 CET Sedat Dilek wrote:

P.S.: If you are Debian/unstable AMD64 user and are experienced
enough, you can try on YOUR OWN RISK.

To pass daily dist-upgrades I did the following:

[ Set all QT v5.15.6 packages on hold ]
root# VER="5.15..6" ; for p in $( dpkg -l | grep $VER | awk '/^ii/
{print $2}' ) ; do echo "[ $p ]" ; echo "$p" "hold" | dpkg
--set-selections ; done

I must be sounding like a broken record player (by now), but:

Stop using *dist-*upgrade by DEFAULT.

And apparently it's (also) needed to say that apt/apt-get/aptitude tells you what it's about to do. If it's telling you that it'll remove (almost) all of KDE and you don't want that, you can say 'No' and not go through with that.

The normal/safe-upgrade is what you should be using by default and only when you want to force something, you'd do a dist-/full-upgrade and then you evaluate what it's about to do and when you think "Yes, that's what I want", then and only then you go through with it.

I think they above quoted script is absolutely horrific.

My 0.02
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Marc Haber - 21.12.22, 12:00:39 CET:

Stop using *dist-*upgrade by DEFAULT.

*AMEN* to that.

I usually do "dist-upgrade", but then look carefully what it is about to
do. If I don't like that, I only to "upgrade".

Of course one can argue it is safer to do it the other way around.

Ciao,
--
Martin

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On Wed, Dec 21, 2022 at 12:50:45PM +0100, Martin Steigerwald wrote:

Marc Haber - 21.12.22, 12:00:39 CET:

Stop using *dist-*upgrade by DEFAULT.

*AMEN* to that.

I usually do "dist-upgrade", but then look carefully what it is about to
do. If I don't like that, I only to "upgrade".

Of course one can argue it is safer to do it the other way around.

I find it way easier to have apt reduce the problem riskless first. It's
a shorter list of actions to review.

Greetings
Marc

P.S. dist-upgrade is as deprecated as it could be, it's not even in the
man page any more

-- ----------------------------------------------------------------------------- Marc Haber | "I don't trust Computers. They | Mailadresse im Header Leimen, Germany | lose things." Winona Ryder | Fon: *49 6224 1600402 Nordisch by Nature | How to make an American Quilt | Fax: *49 6224 1600421

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On Wed, 21 Dec 2022 21:37:45 +0100
Marc Haber <mh+debian-kde@zugschlus.de> wrote:

P.S. dist-upgrade is as deprecated as it could be, it's not even in
the man page any more

It's called "full-upgrade" in apt and aptitude, but it's still called "dist-upgrade" in apt-get, which still gets installed with the apt
package.

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Hi all,

Le mercredi 21 décembre 2022, 21:37:45 CET Marc Haber a écrit :

On Wed, Dec 21, 2022 at 12:50:45PM +0100, Martin Steigerwald wrote:

Marc Haber - 21.12.22, 12:00:39 CET:

Stop using *dist-*upgrade by DEFAULT.

*AMEN* to that.

I usually do "dist-upgrade", but then look carefully what it is about to do. If I don't like that, I only to "upgrade".

Of course one can argue it is safer to do it the other way around.

P.S. dist-upgrade is as deprecated as it could be, it's not even in the
man page any more

That can be correct or incorrect depending on which manpage you’re looking at. :)
dist-upgrade is an argument for apt-get while full-upgrade is for apt.

I’d like to recommend using « apt upgrade » which has a slightly different behaviour than apt-get : it will upgrade already installed packages but also install new packages where necessary (which apt-get upgrade won’t do).

This will leave full-upgrade with less things to do and for me to review. The only remaining packages should have a note in their changelog about doing a split, replacing another package or adding a Breaks/Replace condition. I regularly check this when I
see non obvious removals (and by obvious I really only mean libfooN+1 replacing libfooN).


Happy hacking,
--
Aurélien

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Aurélien COUDERC - 21.12.22, 23:10:14 CET:

I’d like to recommend using « apt upgrade » which has a slightly different behaviour than apt-get : it will upgrade already installed packages but also install new packages where necessary (which apt-get
upgrade won’t do).

This will leave full-upgrade with less things to do and for me to
review. The only remaining packages should have a note in their
changelog about doing a split, replacing another package or adding a Breaks/Replace condition. I regularly check this when I see non
obvious removals (and by obvious I really only mean libfooN+1
replacing libfooN).

Interesting.

I did not know this difference in behavior between "apt" and "apt-get".

Thank you, Aurélien

Ciao,
--
Martin

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Martin Steigerwald - 22.12.22, 09:16:50 CET:

I made an interesting experience regarding the current Qt transition:
I updated a ThinkPad X1 Gen 1 Tablet with "apt upgrade" yesterday.

Parts of the Plasma desktop are still broken. Some part of systray
misses some QML files, KRunner shows up as an empty pane without
anything, the lock screen is not usable and several other issues. So
it can still happen with just "apt upgrade" that you have an only
partly usable system afterwards. Of course I'd argue that this is an
issue with missing versioned dependencies. However it appears to me
that it is quite different to completely get this right with a
software stack of this complexity.

So I will just wait until a "full-upgrade" can run through fully on
this tablet and probably stay away from a "upgrade" on my laptop as
well for a few days. However I used "apt upgrade" to upgrade my

Well, which was possible today already. All issues I found are fixed by
today's update.

I also fully upgraded on my main laptop. All fine there as well.

So at least for the sets of packages I use, the update goes through
smoothly now. According to

https://release.debian.org/transitions/html/qtbase-abi-5-15-7.html

almost all packages are built for AMD64 already.

laptop earlier on the same day and have seen no such updates. The
tablet has not been updated for a longer time, but that should not
really make much of a difference.

And that might have made *the* difference. Some KF5 related packages were
still at 5.90 on this tablet after the "apt upgrade" yesterday. Of
course these were more current version on my main laptop.

Ciao,
--
Martin

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On Thu, Dec 22, 2022 at 10:53 AM Martin Steigerwald <martin@lichtvoll.de> wrote:

Martin Steigerwald - 22.12.22, 09:16:50 CET:

I made an interesting experience regarding the current Qt transition:
I updated a ThinkPad X1 Gen 1 Tablet with "apt upgrade" yesterday.

Parts of the Plasma desktop are still broken. Some part of systray
misses some QML files, KRunner shows up as an empty pane without
anything, the lock screen is not usable and several other issues. So
it can still happen with just "apt upgrade" that you have an only
partly usable system afterwards. Of course I'd argue that this is an
issue with missing versioned dependencies. However it appears to me
that it is quite different to completely get this right with a
software stack of this complexity.

So I will just wait until a "full-upgrade" can run through fully on
this tablet and probably stay away from a "upgrade" on my laptop as
well for a few days. However I used "apt upgrade" to upgrade my

Well, which was possible today already. All issues I found are fixed by today's update.

I also fully upgraded on my main laptop. All fine there as well.

So at least for the sets of packages I use, the update goes through
smoothly now. According to

https://release.debian.org/transitions/html/qtbase-abi-5-15-7.html

almost all packages are built for AMD64 already.

laptop earlier on the same day and have seen no such updates. The
tablet has not been updated for a longer time, but that should not
really make much of a difference.

And that might have made *the* difference. Some KF5 related packages were still at 5.90 on this tablet after the "apt upgrade" yesterday. Of
course these were more current version on my main laptop.

Hi Martin,

I can confirm I see no REMOVALS of KF/KP/KG packages when I simulate
an (dist-)upgrade.

Can you boot into KDE version 5.26.4 with QT version 5.15.7 packages
upgraded as of today?
Do the KDE applications work as (you) expected?

Thanks

Regards,
-Sedat-

P.S.: I checked myself with apt VS. apt-get (upgrade and full-upgrade
VS. dist-upgrade).

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Sedat Dilek - 22.12.22, 11:10:47 CET:

On Thu, Dec 22, 2022 at 10:53 AM Martin Steigerwald

<martin@lichtvoll.de> wrote:

Martin Steigerwald - 22.12.22, 09:16:50 CET:

[…]

So I will just wait until a "full-upgrade" can run through fully
on this tablet and probably stay away from a "upgrade" on my
laptop as well for a few days. However I used "apt upgrade" to
upgrade my

Well, which was possible today already. All issues I found are fixed
by today's update.

I also fully upgraded on my main laptop. All fine there as well.

[…]

Can you boot into KDE version 5.26.4 with QT version 5.15.7 packages
upgraded as of today?

Do the KDE applications work as (you) expected?

With "All fine there as well" I meant exactly that.

I did not do much on the tablet. But I am working with my main laptop
just as usual and did not see any issues so far.

This is no guarantee whether it works all fine for your set of packages
and your use case, but for mine it does so far.

Thanks to the Qt/KDE package maintainers for the update!!!

Best,
--
Martin

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On Wed, Dec 21, 2022 at 11:10 PM Aurélien COUDERC <coucouf@debian.org> wrote:

Hi all,

Le mercredi 21 décembre 2022, 21:37:45 CET Marc Haber a écrit :

On Wed, Dec 21, 2022 at 12:50:45PM +0100, Martin Steigerwald wrote:

Marc Haber - 21.12.22, 12:00:39 CET:

Stop using *dist-*upgrade by DEFAULT.

*AMEN* to that.

I usually do "dist-upgrade", but then look carefully what it is about to do. If I don't like that, I only to "upgrade".

Of course one can argue it is safer to do it the other way around.

P.S. dist-upgrade is as deprecated as it could be, it's not even in the
man page any more

That can be correct or incorrect depending on which manpage you’re looking at. :)
dist-upgrade is an argument for apt-get while full-upgrade is for apt.

I’d like to recommend using « apt upgrade » which has a slightly different behaviour than apt-get : it will upgrade already installed packages but also install new packages where necessary (which apt-get upgrade won’t do).

This will leave full-upgrade with less things to do and for me to review. The only remaining packages should have a note in their changelog about doing a split, replacing another package or adding a Breaks/Replace condition. I regularly check this when

I see non obvious removals (and by obvious I really only mean libfooN+1 replacing libfooN).


Hi Aurlien,

In 2017 I told my co-worker that I will continue to use apt-get which
I still do.
IIRC these days the Debian upgrade manuals announced the usage of apt.
It is a sort of satisfaction to read that apt behaves (in certain
scenarios) differently.

Yes, the man-page of apt-get lists "dist-upgrade".

I remember the discussion about apt(-get) VS. aptitude in Debian and
sidux forums.
But that was 15 years ago.
So, apps might change like time did.

Thanks.

Regards,
-Sedat-

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Martin Steigerwald - 22.12.22, 11:48:59 CET:

I did not do much on the tablet. But I am working with my main laptop
just as usual and did not see any issues so far.

And for what I did on the tablet: no issues. Systray, KRunner fully
available again.

--
Martin

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On Thursday, 22 December 2022 09:16:50 CET Martin Steigerwald wrote:

I find it way easier to have apt reduce the problem riskless first.
It's a shorter list of actions to review.

Good argument. My argument is that in the usual situation trying "apt full-upgrade" first will save me one command. With "apt upgrade" I often enough would have to use "apt full-upgrade" afterwards.

IMO that indicates that the 'state' of your packages could be improved.
I *rarely* have to do a full-upgrade to get things fully upgraded.
And when not all packages get upgraded, that usually means something 'special' is going on, like now with the Qt transition.

On Wednesday, 21 December 2022 11:42:17 CET Diederik de Haas wrote:

I think they above quoted script is absolutely horrific.

I made that statement for 2 reasons:
1) It tries do a dist-upgrade 'at all cost' (imo ofc)
2) `dpkg --set-selection` completely messes up APT's 'database' wrt manually and automatically installed packages ... which in turn causes the need to full-/dist-upgrade.

Run the following command and mark as automatically installed all those you don't need to have marked as manually installed:
$ aptitude search '?narrow(~i!~M~n^lib,!~essential!~prequired)'

That command finds all packages which are marked as manually installed, have a name which starts with 'lib' and are not of priority essential or required.

HTH
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Diederik de Haas - 22.12.22, 13:26:47 CET:

On Thursday, 22 December 2022 09:16:50 CET Martin Steigerwald wrote:

I find it way easier to have apt reduce the problem riskless
first.
It's a shorter list of actions to review.

Good argument. My argument is that in the usual situation trying
"apt
full-upgrade" first will save me one command. With "apt upgrade" I
often enough would have to use "apt full-upgrade" afterwards.

IMO that indicates that the 'state' of your packages could be
improved. I *rarely* have to do a full-upgrade to get things fully
upgraded. And when not all packages get upgraded, that usually means something 'special' is going on, like now with the Qt transition.

Well, I still thought about the "apt-get upgrade" scenario even though I
use "apt upgrade" meanwhile. Often enough there are new packages to
install. I did not really test how often I would have to use "apt full- upgrade" instead of "apt upgrade". It might be considerably less often
due to apt installing new packages automatically.

On Wednesday, 21 December 2022 11:42:17 CET Diederik de Haas wrote:

I think they above quoted script is absolutely horrific.

I made that statement for 2 reasons:
1) It tries do a dist-upgrade 'at all cost' (imo ofc)
2) `dpkg --set-selection` completely messes up APT's 'database' wrt
manually and automatically installed packages ... which in turn
causes the need to full-/dist-upgrade.

I made no statement at all about this script. So in case you were
assuming that I somehow intended to justify it, I was not. Actually I
did not even carefully read through it to see what it does.

My statement was just about "upgrade" versus "full-upgrade".

Best,
--
Martin

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On Wed, Dec 21, 2022 at 12:01 PM Marc Haber <mh+debian-kde@zugschlus.de> wrote: [ ... ]

It's called unstable for a reason, it's supposed to be broken once in a while.

Exactly Marc.

The transition period is sometimes hard to suffer and in the end you
have to... accept + wait.

BTW, I learned a lot by breaking my Debian-system :-).

-Sedat-

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On Thu, Dec 22, 2022 at 03:32:38PM +0100, Sedat Dilek wrote:

BTW, I learned a lot by breaking my Debian-system :-).

Absolutely. That's when one learns best. Just don't do it when you need
the box, know how to fix it, and have backups.

Greetings
Marc

-- ----------------------------------------------------------------------------- Marc Haber | "I don't trust Computers. They | Mailadresse im Header Leimen, Germany | lose things." Winona Ryder | Fon: *49 6224 1600402 Nordisch by Nature | How to make an American Quilt | Fax: *49 6224 1600421

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On Thu, Dec 22, 2022 at 11:49 AM Martin Steigerwald <martin@lichtvoll.de> wrote:

Sedat Dilek - 22.12.22, 11:10:47 CET:
[…]

Can you boot into KDE version 5.26.4 with QT version 5.15.7 packages upgraded as of today?

Do the KDE applications work as (you) expected?

With "All fine there as well" I meant exactly that.

I did not do much on the tablet. But I am working with my main laptop
just as usual and did not see any issues so far.

This is no guarantee whether it works all fine for your set of packages
and your use case, but for mine it does so far.

I played with...

root# dpkg --get-selections | grep hold
[ EMPTY ]

1011 2022-12-22 15:35:46 RELEASE="unstable" ; LC_ALL=C apt upgrade -V
-t $RELEASE
1012 2022-12-22 15:40:10 RELEASE="unstable" ; LC_ALL=C apt
full-upgrade -V -t $RELEASE
1013 2022-12-22 15:40:20 RELEASE="unstable" ; LC_ALL=C apt-get
upgrade -V -t $RELEASE
1014 2022-12-22 15:40:31 RELEASE="unstable" ; LC_ALL=C apt-get
dist-upgrade -V -t $RELEASE

...all resulted in:

[...]
146 upgraded, 0 newly installed, 0 to remove and 0 not upgraded.
Need to get 110 MB/110 MB of archives.
After this operation, 23.6 kB disk space will be freed.
Do you want to continue? [Y/n] n
Abort.

No removal of installed KDE packages listed.

I will wait for the APT updates normally published at 2:00 p.m. UTC
and decide - should arrive at 16:00 German local-time.

If something explodes I can jump to GNOME v43 Wayland...

-Sedat-

P.S.: INFO: In my APT config I have pinned (buildd-)unstable and (buildd-)experimental packages to 99.

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On Thursday, 22 December 2022 14:31:38 CET Martin Steigerwald wrote:

On Wednesday, 21 December 2022 11:42:17 CET Diederik de Haas wrote:

I think they above quoted script is absolutely horrific.

I made that statement for 2 reasons:
1) It tries do a dist-upgrade 'at all cost' (imo ofc)
2) `dpkg --set-selection` completely messes up APT's 'database' wrt manually and automatically installed packages ... which in turn
causes the need to full-/dist-upgrade.

I made no statement at all about this script. So in case you were
assuming that I somehow intended to justify it,

That was not my intention. Sorry if I made it appear that way.
If I want to address an issue to someone personally, I'd put that person in
the To: field, like I have done now.

If I want to address the 'general public', I sent it to the list.

The `dpkg --set-selection` command imo 'messes up' the packages state as it they all get marked as manually installed and therefor it was for me related
to what I said above that in my previous mail.

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On Thu, Dec 22, 2022 at 3:52 PM Sedat Dilek <sedat.dilek@gmail.com> wrote:

I will wait for the APT updates normally published at 2:00 p.m. UTC
and decide - should arrive at 16:00 German local-time.

KInfoCenter says:

Operating System: Debian GNU/Linux unstable
KDE Plasma Version: 5.26.4
KDE Frameworks Version: 5.101.0
Qt Version: 5.15.7
Kernel Version: 6.0.0-6-amd64 (64-bit)
Graphics Platform: Wayland

-Sedat-

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thanks to all!!! an "apt update -t sid" on my pc upgraded it to below:

Operating System: Debian GNU/Linux
KDE Plasma Version: 5.26.4
KDE Frameworks Version: 5.101.0
Qt Version: 5.15.7
Kernel Version: 6.1.0-0-amd64 (64-bit)
Graphics Platform: X11
Processors: 4 × Intel® Core™ i5-4200U CPU @ 1.60GHz
Memory: 7.2 GiB of RAM
Graphics Processor: Mesa Intel® HD Graphics 4400
Manufacturer: Hewlett-Packard
Product Name: HP ProBook 430 G1
System Version: A3009CD20303


Op do 22 dec. 2022 om 16:51 schreef Diederik de Haas <didi.debian@cknow.org

:

On Thursday, 22 December 2022 14:31:38 CET Martin Steigerwald wrote:

On Wednesday, 21 December 2022 11:42:17 CET Diederik de Haas wrote:

I think they above quoted script is absolutely horrific.

I made that statement for 2 reasons:
1) It tries do a dist-upgrade 'at all cost' (imo ofc)
2) `dpkg --set-selection` completely messes up APT's 'database' wrt manually and automatically installed packages ... which in turn
causes the need to full-/dist-upgrade.

I made no statement at all about this script. So in case you were
assuming that I somehow intended to justify it,

That was not my intention. Sorry if I made it appear that way.
If I want to address an issue to someone personally, I'd put that person
in
the To: field, like I have done now.

If I want to address the 'general public', I sent it to the list.

The `dpkg --set-selection` command imo 'messes up' the packages state as
it
they all get marked as manually installed and therefor it was for me
related
to what I said above that in my previous mail.

--
Luc Castermans
mailto:luc.castermans@gmail.com

<div dir="ltr"><div><br></div><div>thanks to all!!! an &quot;apt update -t sid&quot;   on my pc upgraded it to below:</div><div><br></div><div>Operating System: Debian GNU/Linux<br>KDE Plasma Version: 5.26.4<br>KDE Frameworks Version: 5.101.0<br>Qt
Version: 5.15.7<br>Kernel Version: 6.1.0-0-amd64 (64-bit)<br>Graphics Platform: X11<br>Processors: 4 × Intel® Core™ i5-4200U CPU @ 1.60GHz<br>Memory: 7.2 GiB of RAM<br>Graphics Processor: Mesa Intel® HD Graphics 4400<br>Manufacturer: Hewlett-Packard<

Product Name: HP ProBook 430 G1<br>System Version: A3009CD20303</div><div><br></div></div><br><div class="gmail_quote"><div dir="ltr" class="gmail_attr">Op do 22 dec. 2022 om 16:51 schreef Diederik de Haas &lt;<a href="mailto:didi.debian@cknow.org">

didi.debian@cknow.org</a>&gt;:<br></div><blockquote class="gmail_quote" style="margin:0px 0px 0px 0.8ex;border-left:1px solid rgb(204,204,204);padding-left:1ex">On Thursday, 22 December 2022 14:31:38 CET