PW <iamnotusingonewithAgent@notinuse.com> wrote at 16:49 this Tuesday (GMT):

Still, if you're interested in a surface level description of how the
'pro' cheaters are doing it*, this is a good video to start with.

I am interested because it is a techie thing but I am not willing to
spend 40 seconds or even 4 seconds on a video.

I avoid cheaters by not playing games on-line! :-)

I will end up watching a little of this vide though Spalls.

Thanks.

-pw

What about cheating AI?
--
user <candycane> is generated from /dev/urandom

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Still, if you're interested in a surface level description of how the
'pro' cheaters are doing it*, this is a good video to start with.

I am interested because it is a techie thing but I am not willing to
spend 40 seconds or even 4 seconds on a video.

I avoid cheaters by not playing games on-line! :-)

I will end up watching a little of this vide though Spalls.

Thanks.

-pw

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I'd say whatever cheats they're using aren't very good, when a guy my
age can go into twitch games like multiplayer and come in first or
second place most of the time.

I attribute this mostly NOT to my reflexes getting better with age, so
much as many multi-player games are cross-platform these days.

This usually means that there are a crap ton of console gamepad
holders that are getting their ass served to them on a shit stick by
some dude with a mouse and keyboard like yours truly.

Even in PC platform specific MP games, cheating is usually kept under
control well enough that either I rarely notice it, or the cheats just
don't do that much to help the player.

The bigger problem has always been the perception and accusation that
the other guy is cheating by players who just aren't very good. "I
keep dying therefore everyone else must be cheating"... etc.

Spamming of cheat accusations is really annoying. Luckily it usually
becomes a self-solving problem, because in most games, eventually the
whiners leave, and I suspect in many cases simply choose to not play
at all.

If I went into a game like Counterstrike right now that I never play
anymore, it would probably take me at least 20 minutes, maybe an hour
to fully warm up, get my mouse sensitivity dialed in right, etc.
before I was keeping up with the joneses and then coming out on top
round after round.

I think a lot of players don't get that. Practice makes perfect. A
lot of folks who don't play competitive shooters regularly expect
immediate gratification and start accusing others of cheating when
they don't receive their golden egg right away.

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On Tue, 9 Apr 2024 17:10:11 -0000 (UTC), candycanearter07 <candycanearter07@candycanearter07.nomail.afraid> wrote:

PW <iamnotusingonewithAgent@notinuse.com> wrote at 16:49 this Tuesday (GMT): >>

Still, if you're interested in a surface level description of how the >>>'pro' cheaters are doing it*, this is a good video to start with.

I am interested because it is a techie thing but I am not willing to
spend 40 seconds or even 4 seconds on a video.

I avoid cheaters by not playing games on-line! :-)

I will end up watching a little of this vide though Spalls.

Thanks.

-pw

What about cheating AI?

*--

It exists? Explains a lot over the years!

--- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
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On 08/04/2024 21:39, Spalls Hurgenson wrote:

So, here's a thing:

Hacking into Kernel Anti-Cheats How cheaters bypass
Faceit, ESEA and Vanguard anti-cheats
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RwzIq04vd0M

It's a 40 minute video (with a somewhat annoying presentation) but it
gives a nice overview of some of the more advanced methods cheaters
are using to get an advantage in online games, many of which are not
easily defended against by even kernel-level anti-cheat programs.

Not being into that 'scene', I was unaware of how far the technology
had developed. Not that any of the concepts are actually surprising -
I'd often speculated that using a secondary PC to monitor and overlay information was a possibility - but I wasn't aware that such
techniques were actively being used.

Honestly, it all seems a bit overkill just to say "I sniped you
hahahaha" in an online shooter. I suspect that the presenter is being
a bit naive in assuming that cheats are merely being used for bragging/trolling rights; as likely, the cheaters who invest in such techniques are probably doing so because they're cashing in on their
wins somehow

(it probably ties into how closely tied online gaming has become with gambling)

Still, if you're interested in a surface level description of how the
'pro' cheaters are doing it*, this is a good video to start with.

I didn't watch the video and the only real experience I have of
anti-cheat measures is World of Tanks. So there the big one is all the calculations are server side so for all practically purposes* you can't
change those calculations and the client only has access to the
information it requires.

That doesn't mean there aren't mod's classed as illegal but all the ones
I know about give you fairly minor advantages and you also risk having
your account banned although who knows how effective the detection
system is.

Something that I think is more detrimental to WoT is what some of the
paid services do. So you give someone some cash (possibly a few hundred
pounds) and they will obtain certain items for you like desirable reward
tanks. The real problem comes that they don't just play on you account
but have lots of other false accounts and during periods of low player
numbers they put them all in the battle queue together hoping to have
the account that's paid money on one team and multiple false accounts on
the other. The worse part though is WG seem to do very little about it
as you can see these false accounts racking up thousands of battles in a
short time period while doing little more than drive to a location and
wait to be farmed.

*Of course that doesn't stop a noticeable minority claiming that the
reason their stats are so bad is that everybody else is cheating.

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PW <iamnotusingonewithAgent@notinuse.com> wrote at 03:25 this Wednesday (GMT):

On Tue, 9 Apr 2024 17:10:11 -0000 (UTC), candycanearter07
<candycanearter07@candycanearter07.nomail.afraid> wrote:

PW <iamnotusingonewithAgent@notinuse.com> wrote at 16:49 this Tuesday (GMT): >>>

Still, if you're interested in a surface level description of how the >>>>'pro' cheaters are doing it*, this is a good video to start with.

I am interested because it is a techie thing but I am not willing to
spend 40 seconds or even 4 seconds on a video.

I avoid cheaters by not playing games on-line! :-)

I will end up watching a little of this vide though Spalls.

Thanks.

-pw

What about cheating AI?

*--

It exists? Explains a lot over the years!

A lot of people complain about it.
--
user <candycane> is generated from /dev/urandom

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On Wed, 10 Apr 2024 12:50:02 -0000 (UTC), candycanearter07 <candycanearter07@candycanearter07.nomail.afraid> wrote:

PW <iamnotusingonewithAgent@notinuse.com> wrote at 03:25 this Wednesday (GMT): >> On Tue, 9 Apr 2024 17:10:11 -0000 (UTC), candycanearter07 >><candycanearter07@candycanearter07.nomail.afraid> wrote:

PW <iamnotusingonewithAgent@notinuse.com> wrote at 16:49 this Tuesday (GMT): >>>>

Still, if you're interested in a surface level description of how the >>>>>'pro' cheaters are doing it*, this is a good video to start with.

I am interested because it is a techie thing but I am not willing to
spend 40 seconds or even 4 seconds on a video.

I avoid cheaters by not playing games on-line! :-)

I will end up watching a little of this vide though Spalls.

Thanks.

-pw

What about cheating AI?

*--

It exists? Explains a lot over the years!

A lot of people complain about it.

Similar to my other post, complaints about "AI cheating" usually is a
side effect of incongruence between the difficulty options or
progression of a game, and the players expectations for "optimal
difficulty".

It is difficult for a single player game to "adapt" its difficulty
level to the playing habits and style of the current player, because
that would typically involve the use of true AI (which most games do
not).

What most gamers call AI is, simply enough, the "difficulty" of the
game.

If AI is ever properly utilized in computer-controlled player
behavior, it is possible that a game can learn to optimize it's
difficulty so that it provides each player just the right level of
challenge to remain entertaining as long as the player wants to
continue playing.

But until then, there are two fundamental truths when it comes to game
AI:

1) "I beat the game" really means "the computer was programmed to let
me win"
2) "The AI is cheating" really means "I suck at that game"

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Rin Stowleigh <rstowleigh@x-nospam-x.com> wrote at 14:28 this Wednesday (GMT):

On Wed, 10 Apr 2024 12:50:02 -0000 (UTC), candycanearter07
<candycanearter07@candycanearter07.nomail.afraid> wrote:

PW <iamnotusingonewithAgent@notinuse.com> wrote at 03:25 this Wednesday (GMT):

On Tue, 9 Apr 2024 17:10:11 -0000 (UTC), candycanearter07 >>><candycanearter07@candycanearter07.nomail.afraid> wrote:

What about cheating AI?

*--

It exists? Explains a lot over the years!

A lot of people complain about it.

Similar to my other post, complaints about "AI cheating" usually is a
side effect of incongruence between the difficulty options or
progression of a game, and the players expectations for "optimal
difficulty".

It is difficult for a single player game to "adapt" its difficulty
level to the playing habits and style of the current player, because
that would typically involve the use of true AI (which most games do
not).

What most gamers call AI is, simply enough, the "difficulty" of the
game.

If AI is ever properly utilized in computer-controlled player
behavior, it is possible that a game can learn to optimize it's
difficulty so that it provides each player just the right level of
challenge to remain entertaining as long as the player wants to
continue playing.

But until then, there are two fundamental truths when it comes to game
AI:

1) "I beat the game" really means "the computer was programmed to let
me win"
2) "The AI is cheating" really means "I suck at that game"

Interesting, I never thought of it like that.
--
user <candycane> is generated from /dev/urandom

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On 10/04/2024 16:33, Spalls Hurgenson wrote:

I didn't watch the video and the only real experience I have of
anti-cheat measures is World of Tanks. So there the big one is all the
calculations are server side so for all practically purposes* you can't
change those calculations and the client only has access to the
information it requires.

I think even if "World of Tanks" some of the techniques described in
the video could be effective. Things like "wall hacks" - allowing the
player to see the target even if obstructed by terrain, buildings, or
fog of war - would be incredibly successful. So too would a hack that
would automatically adjust the player's aim to more accurately hit
their target.

As I say not seen the video but wall hacks really don't sound useful at
all as visibility (spotting) calculations are server side so there isn't
an idea of using you're MkI Eyeball but instead if the server decides
you can see an enemy tank then you'll have a nice icon on screen, and
mini-map, showing exactly were it is. As an example there is a mod
called Tundra which removes vegetation. That sounds good until you
think, it doesn't help you spot anything and it also means you don't
know where to position your tank to to use the camouflage (makes you
more difficult to spot) they provide.

Aimbots already exist but don't seem particularly useful as aiming isn't
really that hard, there's RNG involved and the game has a ballistic
trajectory calculation which needs to be taken into account.

One of the advantages about WoT and cheating is besides that it's server
side it's also not very 'mechanically' skill based but instead far more
around positioning and knowing, for example, when it's worth trading
shots or should you stand and fight or pull back. An AI just isn't very
good at that.

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On Wed, 10 Apr 2024 10:28:43 -0400, Rin Stowleigh
<rstowleigh@x-nospam-x.com> wrote:

On Wed, 10 Apr 2024 12:50:02 -0000 (UTC), candycanearter07 ><candycanearter07@candycanearter07.nomail.afraid> wrote:

PW <iamnotusingonewithAgent@notinuse.com> wrote at 03:25 this Wednesday (GMT):

On Tue, 9 Apr 2024 17:10:11 -0000 (UTC), candycanearter07 >>><candycanearter07@candycanearter07.nomail.afraid> wrote:

PW <iamnotusingonewithAgent@notinuse.com> wrote at 16:49 this Tuesday (GMT):

Still, if you're interested in a surface level description of how the >>>>>>'pro' cheaters are doing it*, this is a good video to start with.

I am interested because it is a techie thing but I am not willing to >>>>> spend 40 seconds or even 4 seconds on a video.

I avoid cheaters by not playing games on-line! :-)

I will end up watching a little of this vide though Spalls.

Thanks.

-pw

What about cheating AI?

*--

It exists? Explains a lot over the years!

A lot of people complain about it.

Similar to my other post, complaints about "AI cheating" usually is a
side effect of incongruence between the difficulty options or
progression of a game, and the players expectations for "optimal
difficulty".

It is difficult for a single player game to "adapt" its difficulty
level to the playing habits and style of the current player, because
that would typically involve the use of true AI (which most games do
not).

What most gamers call AI is, simply enough, the "difficulty" of the
game.

If AI is ever properly utilized in computer-controlled player
behavior, it is possible that a game can learn to optimize it's
difficulty so that it provides each player just the right level of
challenge to remain entertaining as long as the player wants to
continue playing.

But until then, there are two fundamental truths when it comes to game
AI:

1) "I beat the game" really means "the computer was programmed to let
me win"
2) "The AI is cheating" really means "I suck at that game"

*--

AI, of course, did not exist back in my day. I just wrote a buch of If/Then/Else statements :-)

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