https://youtube.com/shorts/x5aiu7BTi7E?si=0knTN4-yUVOXSEsy
MitchAlsup1 wrote:
https://youtube.com/shorts/x5aiu7BTi7E?si=0knTN4-yUVOXSEsy
A quicky search finds the current EUV maximum reticle size is
about 26 mm by 33 mm or 858 mm² (~1 inch by 1.25 inch).
That chip sure looks bigger than that.
EricP wrote:
MitchAlsup1 wrote:
https://youtube.com/shorts/x5aiu7BTi7E?si=0knTN4-yUVOXSEsy
A quicky search finds the current EUV maximum reticle size is
about 26 mm by 33 mm or 858 mm² (~1 inch by 1.25 inch).
That chip sure looks bigger than that.
It looks to me about 4× that reticle limit.
In the early 1980s someone (Amdahl?) was working on wafer scale
lithography, apparently we have now arrived.....
EricP wrote:
MitchAlsup1 wrote:
https://youtube.com/shorts/x5aiu7BTi7E?si=0knTN4-yUVOXSEsy
A quicky search finds the current EUV maximum reticle size is
about 26 mm by 33 mm or 858 mm² (~1 inch by 1.25 inch).
That chip sure looks bigger than that.
It looks to me about 4× that reticle limit.
In the early 1980s someone (Amdahl?) was working on wafer scale
lithography, apparently we have now arrived.....
EricP wrote:
MitchAlsup1 wrote:
EricP wrote:
MitchAlsup1 wrote:
https://youtube.com/shorts/x5aiu7BTi7E?si=0knTN4-yUVOXSEsy
A quicky search finds the current EUV maximum reticle size is
about 26 mm by 33 mm or 858 mm² (~1 inch by 1.25 inch).
That chip sure looks bigger than that.
It looks to me about 4× that reticle limit.
In the early 1980s someone (Amdahl?) was working on wafer scale
lithography, apparently we have now arrived.....
As part of a sales deal, in 1981 my then employer rented me and
another guy for on-site support to Trilogy Systems,
Amdahl's then attempt to build wafer scale IBM 370 compatibles.
I got to live in sunny Palo Alto all expense paid for 6 months.
I really enjoyed my time in "the valley" for the 18 months I was there.
All expenses paid would have been a goodly bonus situation.
MitchAlsup1 wrote:
EricP wrote:
MitchAlsup1 wrote:
https://youtube.com/shorts/x5aiu7BTi7E?si=0knTN4-yUVOXSEsy
A quicky search finds the current EUV maximum reticle size is
about 26 mm by 33 mm or 858 mm² (~1 inch by 1.25 inch).
That chip sure looks bigger than that.
It looks to me about 4× that reticle limit.
In the early 1980s someone (Amdahl?) was working on wafer scale
lithography, apparently we have now arrived.....
As part of a sales deal, in 1981 my then employer rented me and
another guy for on-site support to Trilogy Systems,
Amdahl's then attempt to build wafer scale IBM 370 compatibles.
I got to live in sunny Palo Alto all expense paid for 6 months.
Trilogy were building it with ECL macro cells on 3" wafers
with interconnect wires patterned between 0.25" * 0.25" reticles,
trimmed down to a single chip about 2.5" by 2.5" afterwards.
Part of it was inventing a way to dissipate 1200 watts from
the above chips, using liquid freon IIRC.
Also there was no software CAD tools then so all that had to be
invented from scratch too.
They burned through $250 million in seed capital (DEC was one investor)
and closed, merged into Elxsi according to Wikipedia.
In the early 1980s someone (Amdahl?) was working on wafer scale
lithography, apparently we have now arrived.....
On 4/20/2024 11:28 PM, John Savard wrote:
On Thu, 18 Apr 2024 22:41:01 +0000, mitchalsup@aol.com (MitchAlsup1)
wrote:
In the early 1980s someone (Amdahl?) was working on wafer scale
lithography, apparently we have now arrived.....
Actually, several companies were. The one mentioned, Trilogy, was the
one that spun off of Amdahl. There was also the company that was going
to make the solid state storage wafer for the Sinclair, the name of
which was Anamartic. Texas Instruments and ITT also researched its
possibilities.
On the other side of things, I am wondering what sorts of densities and
clock speeds are possible with printed electronics on a plastic
substrate (such as PET).
Information on the subject is fairly sparse, but inks seem to be
available (albeit expensive), albeit with some variation as to printer technology. Seems to be be either organic or inorganic inks, with
inkjet, offset, and screen printing, as the main variations in printer technology (with different inks for the different methods).
Though, I will assume that by inkjet, they don't mean just using a
repurposed consumer-grade printer (possibly with the ROM's hacked to
allow them to use refilled ink cartridges, with the non-standard inks).
Then again, with these things, they have created a situation where there
are a lot of old inkjet printers around, mostly because it is often
cheaper to buy a whole new printer than to buy the ink refill cartridges
for said printer (vs, say, laser printers where the printer is more expensive, but the toner refills are more reasonable).
Looking around, it seems some people are instead using the more "office style" inkjet printers for this (which apparently allow for refilling
the ink cartridges).
Also seems the N and P doped inks are rarer and more expensive than the conductive metallic and insulator inks.
No information on what sorts of densities are possible; crude guess is
it is roughly a ~ 133333um process, based on the assumption of a 300 dpi printer (possibly more or less).
If one assumes, say, 6-dots width for a transistor, this would be ~
50x50 transistors per square inch, or possibly ~ 200k transistors per
page...
I guess, if one could get it to run at MHz speeds, this could be enough
for a CPU.
Though, would likely need multiple passes through the printer to print something like this, say:
Print transistor layers;
Bake the sheet;
Print insulator and metal trace layers;
Bake;
Print more insulator and metal trace layers;
Bake;
...
Possibly, a person could also print vias and then do multiple layers of transistors per page, possibly up to some set limit.
Not entirely sure how one would go about mapping digital logic onto
printable layers though. This may well be the hard part.
I will make a guess that there are probably no Verilog to semiconductive-ink-PNG compilers.
....
John Savard
On 4/21/2024 5:02 PM, MitchAlsup1 wrote:
BGB wrote:
No information on what sorts of densities are possible; crude guess
is it is roughly a ~ 133333um process, based on the assumption of a
300 dpi printer (possibly more or less).
300 DPI is 1995 technology, I would be surprised if you could not find
4800 DPI printers. This, alone, changes the lambda by 160×.
The stuff I was aware of, printer resolution was usually assumed to be between 72 to 300 DPI.
Apparently (looks up stuff), inkjet typically ranges from 300 to 720 DPI (with 600 to 1200 for laser printers, and 1000 to 2400 for photo printers).
Not sure of the DPI of a generic office-style inkjet printer (assuming
one gets one of the ones that allows for refillable ink cartridges).
I guess, if one could get it to run at MHz speeds, this could be enough
for a CPU.
Though, would likely need multiple passes through the printer to print something like this, say:
Print transistor layers;
Bake the sheet;
Print insulator and metal trace layers;
Bake;
Print more insulator and metal trace layers;
Bake;
...
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