• And the Winner Is

    From Quadibloc@21:1/5 to All on Fri Feb 9 17:45:31 2024
    I have now chosen between Concertina II, Concertina III, and Concertina IV.

    Concertina IV will be the basis of the new Concertina II. But it will recieve some changes.

    The biggest change will be in the format of 16-bit instructions. Given there was an objection to the format allowing two registers to be from the same
    group of 8, instead the format will be

    0
    Opcode (5 bits)
    destination register (5 bits)
    source register (5 bits)

    Only one integer type and two floating types will be able to be used in 16-bit instructions.

    Also, some additional header types will be added. So, while one does not need
    a header to write programs with instructions with different lengths, one can add a header to speed decoding by indicating where each instruction starts.

    Also, it will be mentioned that one can write code consisting of only 32-bit instructions and pairs of 16-bit instructions, all in 32-bit alignment, and such code may execute faster on some implementations.

    So this will combine properties of the other versions of Concertina II even with Concertina IV as the basis.

    John Savard

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  • From Quadibloc@21:1/5 to All on Fri Feb 9 17:48:43 2024
    The revised Concertina IV, now called Concertina II, is still at

    http://www.quadibloc.com/arch/ct20int.htm

    John Savard

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  • From MitchAlsup1@21:1/5 to Quadibloc on Fri Feb 9 20:56:59 2024
    Quadibloc wrote:

    The revised Concertina IV, now called Concertina II, is still at

    May I suggest that this is a poor choice (reusing a name for something
    that has been substantially changed. We may get into a discussion and
    misuse one name for the other adding confusion rather than illumination.

    http://www.quadibloc.com/arch/ct20int.htm

    John Savard

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  • From Quadibloc@21:1/5 to All on Sat Feb 10 03:36:34 2024
    On Fri, 09 Feb 2024 20:56:59 +0000, MitchAlsup1 wrote:

    May I suggest that this is a poor choice (reusing a name for something
    that has been substantially changed.

    That is a sound general principle. At the moment, though, what I've
    been engaged in is developing a suitable candidate ISA for the Concertina
    II designation. When I make a change, the older one doesn't stay on my
    web site.

    So I don't have a pile of earlier versions around to look at and discuss.

    John Savard

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  • From MitchAlsup1@21:1/5 to Quadibloc on Sat Feb 10 18:46:32 2024
    Quadibloc wrote:

    On Fri, 09 Feb 2024 20:56:59 +0000, MitchAlsup1 wrote:

    May I suggest that this is a poor choice (reusing a name for something
    that has been substantially changed.

    That is a sound general principle. At the moment, though, what I've
    been engaged in is developing a suitable candidate ISA for the Concertina
    II designation. When I make a change, the older one doesn't stay on my
    web site.

    I have done mostly the same with My 66000, however it is on revision 31.
    I have a clean trail of older documents. But my ISA has changed a lot less
    than yours.

    So I don't have a pile of earlier versions around to look at and discuss.

    You should if you ever want to patent any of the ideas.

    John Savard

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  • From Quadibloc@21:1/5 to All on Sat Feb 10 19:32:25 2024
    On Sat, 10 Feb 2024 18:46:32 +0000, MitchAlsup1 wrote:
    Quadibloc wrote:

    So I don't have a pile of earlier versions around to look at and discuss.

    You should if you ever want to patent any of the ideas.

    That, too, is a very good point. However, Concertina II doesn't
    really embody anything in the way of original ideas. It's a very
    conventional architecture, only using techniques that have been
    tried before.

    John Savard

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  • From MitchAlsup1@21:1/5 to Quadibloc on Sat Feb 10 20:00:06 2024
    Quadibloc wrote:

    On Sat, 10 Feb 2024 18:46:32 +0000, MitchAlsup1 wrote:
    Quadibloc wrote:

    So I don't have a pile of earlier versions around to look at and discuss. >>
    You should if you ever want to patent any of the ideas.

    That, too, is a very good point. However, Concertina II doesn't
    really embody anything in the way of original ideas. It's a very
    conventional architecture, only using techniques that have been
    tried before.

    The very fact that you packed everything everybody ever did into
    one ISA is novel and passes the "If it is so obvious, why did nobody
    every do it before" test.

    John Savard

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  • From Quadibloc@21:1/5 to All on Sun Feb 11 11:11:19 2024
    On Sat, 10 Feb 2024 20:00:06 +0000, MitchAlsup1 wrote:

    The very fact that you packed everything everybody ever did into
    one ISA is novel and passes the "If it is so obvious, why did nobody
    every do it before" test.

    At first, I thought that you were talking about the original
    Concertina ISA, which indeed tried to pack almost everything anyone
    ever did before into a single ISA.

    Aside from whether or not doing that is of any utility, instruction
    sets have been small and large in the past, so making an instruction
    set larger seems too vague to be patentable.

    However, on further thought, I saw that in Concertina II, because
    I tried to pack a number of different things into it, there was a
    potentially patentable invention lurking.

    I live in Canada; in the United States, an invention can be patented
    within a year of its first disclosure, but most countries have a
    stricter standard than that. And Concertina II has been around for
    more than a year, and this invention has been part of it from the
    start, so I think I'm out of luck.

    The invention?

    Here's a description worded in mild patentese...

    Prior art includes a number of computer designs referred to as
    of the Very Long Instruction Word (VLIW) type. Initially, this
    referred to architectures such as the Control Data Cyber 203
    computer, where a single instruction controlled the actions of
    a large number of arithmetic units; later, it came to refer to
    computers such as the TMS320C6000 chip from Texas Instruments,
    where a block of RISC-like instructions also included, as part
    of each instruction, a bit indicating if a given instruction
    could be executed in parallel with one or more of the instructions
    in the block which preceded it.

    The Itanium from Intel, although not designated as VLIW, used
    a technique similar to that of the TMS320C6000. In its case,
    a 128-bit block consisted of five indicator bits and three
    instructions, each 41 bits in length; the indicator bits, among
    other things, indicated which of the instructions could execute
    in parallel.

    The subject of the invention is a novel class of instruction set
    architectures where:

    The instruction set consists of a set of instructions, all of the
    same length, which are in themselves complete for allowing programs
    of any type to be written, but which may also be augmented by
    additional instructions of other lengths;

    The instructions, although identical in each position, are noted as
    being organized into blocks of a certain number (most usually a
    power of two) of instructiions;

    A portion of the opcode space of the instructions of the standard
    length is reserved for use as block headers, which may only appear
    in the first position within a block.

    This model may be extended by allowing headers longer than a
    single instruction, or by allowing multiple headers in the first
    few positions in a block.

    The primary use of the header is to optionally allow the indication
    of which instructions, within a block, may be executed in parallel
    with those that precede them.

    Other header functions are possible, such as specifying instruction predication, also a characteristic associated with embedded processor
    designs and VLIW processor designs, or extending the instruction set
    while avoiding the need for mode bits that change instruction
    interpretation, and which are a potential security hazard if malware
    can force execution of code with them set wrongly.

    It is intended that an ISA in which specifying an indication of
    instruction parallelism is possible but yet optional will be of
    use in permitting the use of the same instruction set across a
    range of implementations:

    Simple implementations, in which the indication of parallelism
    is ignored, as they can only execute a single instruction at a
    time;

    Intermediate implementations, with pipelining and superscalar
    capabilities, which make use of the indications of parallelism,
    if present, to permit more efficient execution of programs;

    Large implementations, which include interlocks and out-of-order
    execution, which are able to determine the optimum manner to
    execute the instructions in an instruction stream without the
    need for an explicit indication of parallelism.

    Well-formed programs, where the indication of parallelism, if
    given with the program, is correct, in that instructions indicated
    as being capable of being executed in parallel may indeed do so
    without disturbing each other's results, would execute compatibly
    on all three classes of implementation.

    Programs with errors in their indication of parallelism would still
    execute correctly on the first and third classes of implementation;
    they would produce incorrect results on lightweight intermediate implementations, but an intermediate implementation could be given
    additional interlock circuitry to enable it to be fully compatible
    and execute such programs correctly as well, or, conversely,
    implementations of the first and third types could be given additional circuitry to look for, and produce error indications in the case of,
    errors in the indication of parallelism.

    Given that a program with an indication of parallelism would be
    faster on one class of implementation, and not significantly
    slower on the other classes of implementation, what is the utility
    of this type of ISA?

    Primarily, it is presumed that in many cases, programs written for the
    ISA will be targeted at only one of the three classes of implementation
    given above. Having a common ISA spanning these three classes allows
    programs to run on CPUs of all three types, which is a benefit, but it
    is also a benefit if a program primarily intended, for example, to be
    used on the large implementations only, could be written in assembly
    language, or generated by a compiler, in a simpler fashion without
    making use of indication of parallelism or other VLIW features.

    John Savard

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  • From Quadibloc@21:1/5 to Quadibloc on Sun Feb 11 11:22:29 2024
    On Sun, 11 Feb 2024 11:11:19 +0000, Quadibloc wrote:

    The invention?

    Here's a description worded in mild patentese...

    And since even mild patentese is sufficient to make
    people's eyes glaze over, here is a description
    of the invention in plain English:

    A class of ISA format where instructions are
    organized into blocks, and where the first instruction
    in a block can instead be a header including bits that
    indicate when instructions can execute in parallel.

    This lets programs include these headers, if they're
    intended to run with maximum efficiency on the intermediate
    implementations that use them, or be written more simply
    without them if they're intended either for small
    implementations that can't execute more than one
    instruction at a time or large implementations that
    take care of this sort of stuff automatically with
    out-of-order execution.

    John Savard

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  • From MitchAlsup1@21:1/5 to BGB on Sun Feb 11 17:01:26 2024
    BGB wrote:

    On 2/10/2024 2:00 PM, MitchAlsup1 wrote:
    Quadibloc wrote:

    On Sat, 10 Feb 2024 18:46:32 +0000, MitchAlsup1 wrote:
    Quadibloc wrote:

    So I don't have a pile of earlier versions around to look at and
    discuss.

    You should if you ever want to patent any of the ideas.

    That, too, is a very good point. However, Concertina II doesn't
    really embody anything in the way of original ideas. It's a very
    conventional architecture, only using techniques that have been
    tried before.

    The very fact that you packed everything everybody ever did into
    one ISA is novel and passes the "If it is so obvious, why did nobody
    every do it before" test.


    Now, as for whether it makes sense to pack everything everyone ever did
    into a single ISA actually makes sense... Yeah, about that...

    A patent does not have to be useful, just novel;...

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  • From Thomas Koenig@21:1/5 to Quadibloc on Mon Feb 12 17:12:31 2024
    Quadibloc <quadibloc@servername.invalid> schrieb:

    I live in Canada; in the United States, an invention can be patented
    within a year of its first disclosure,

    That is just plain weird.

    but most countries have a
    stricter standard than that.

    Most certainly.

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  • From Quadibloc@21:1/5 to All on Mon Feb 12 19:22:42 2024
    On Sun, 11 Feb 2024 17:01:26 +0000, MitchAlsup1 wrote:

    A patent does not have to be useful, just novel;...

    That is true in a legal sense, however in a practical
    sense, since it costs money to file a patent, it's
    only a patent that has some utility that gives you a
    hope that your investment might lead to those sweet
    licensing royalties flowing in.

    John Savard

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  • From Quadibloc@21:1/5 to Quadibloc on Tue Feb 13 07:37:14 2024
    On Mon, 12 Feb 2024 19:22:42 +0000, Quadibloc wrote:

    On Sun, 11 Feb 2024 17:01:26 +0000, MitchAlsup1 wrote:

    A patent does not have to be useful, just novel;...

    That is true in a legal sense, however in a practical
    sense, since it costs money to file a patent, it's
    only a patent that has some utility that gives you a
    hope that your investment might lead to those sweet
    licensing royalties flowing in.

    This discussion about patents has inspired me to freely
    disclose to the world, foregoing all hopes of remuneration,
    an invention I came up with some time ago.

    It's disclosed now on the bottom of this page: http://www.quadibloc.com/comp/lineint.htm

    Inspired by the IBM 1443 line printer, which prints
    using hammers on horizontally moving physical letter
    shapes, like a chain printer or train printer... but
    where the letters are on a *rigid bar*...

    I came up with the idea of replacing the rigid bar by
    what looks for all the world like an ordinary print
    _drum_, until you look at the letters on it. Instead
    of looking like

    AAAAA
    BBBBB
    CCCCC
    ....

    each row contains a repeated complete character set
    for one print style. The drum shuttles back and forth
    behind the hammers for printing - it only rotates one
    position at a time to switch print styles or character
    sets.

    A printer like that, if one groups the most common
    characters in a limited number of rows, could even print
    in Chinese. A line printer with hammers, long before
    laser printers were even invented!

    To make money off of patenting that, I would also have to
    invent a time machine...

    John Savard

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  • From John Levine@21:1/5 to All on Tue Feb 13 14:29:10 2024
    According to Quadibloc <quadibloc@servername.invalid>:
    On Sun, 11 Feb 2024 17:01:26 +0000, MitchAlsup1 wrote:

    A patent does not have to be useful, just novel;...

    That is true in a legal sense, ...

    Maybe. The invention disclosed in a patent has to work.

    That's why the USPTO waives their right to get a model for everything
    except perpetual motion machines.

    --
    Regards,
    John Levine, johnl@taugh.com, Primary Perpetrator of "The Internet for Dummies",
    Please consider the environment before reading this e-mail. https://jl.ly

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  • From MitchAlsup1@21:1/5 to Quadibloc on Wed Feb 14 22:34:52 2024
    Quadibloc wrote:

    On Mon, 12 Feb 2024 19:22:42 +0000, Quadibloc wrote:

    On Sun, 11 Feb 2024 17:01:26 +0000, MitchAlsup1 wrote:

    A patent does not have to be useful, just novel;...

    That is true in a legal sense, however in a practical
    sense, since it costs money to file a patent, it's
    only a patent that has some utility that gives you a
    hope that your investment might lead to those sweet
    licensing royalties flowing in.

    This discussion about patents has inspired me to freely
    disclose to the world, foregoing all hopes of remuneration,
    an invention I came up with some time ago.

    It's disclosed now on the bottom of this page: http://www.quadibloc.com/comp/lineint.htm

    Inspired by the IBM 1443 line printer, which prints
    using hammers on horizontally moving physical letter
    shapes, like a chain printer or train printer... but
    where the letters are on a *rigid bar*...

    I came up with the idea of replacing the rigid bar by
    what looks for all the world like an ordinary print
    _drum_, until you look at the letters on it. Instead
    of looking like

    AAAAA
    BBBBB
    CCCCC
    .....

    We used to make a set of comment cards up that caused all of the hammers
    to "fly" at the same time. That way we could take a quick nap, and when we heard our; sound we would wake up, walk to the line printer and pick up our printout. Bang-bang-bang-bang :: must have been hard on the line printer mechanicals...

    The 360/67 and the 1108 required different comment cards.....

    each row contains a repeated complete character set
    for one print style. The drum shuttles back and forth
    behind the hammers for printing - it only rotates one
    position at a time to switch print styles or character
    sets.

    A printer like that, if one groups the most common
    characters in a limited number of rows, could even print
    in Chinese. A line printer with hammers, long before
    laser printers were even invented!

    To make money off of patenting that, I would also have to
    invent a time machine...

    John Savard

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  • From Quadibloc@21:1/5 to All on Thu Feb 15 11:22:43 2024
    On Wed, 14 Feb 2024 22:34:52 +0000, MitchAlsup1 wrote:

    We used to make a set of comment cards up that caused all of the hammers
    to "fly" at the same time. That way we could take a quick nap, and when we heard our; sound we would wake up, walk to the line printer and pick up our printout. Bang-bang-bang-bang :: must have been hard on the line printer mechanicals...

    What it was _really_ hard on was the electonics that supplied
    current to drive all those electromagnets on the same time.

    On some printers, pulling that trick would blow fuses.

    John Savard

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  • From John Levine@21:1/5 to All on Thu Feb 15 19:19:08 2024
    According to Quadibloc <quadibloc@servername.invalid>:
    We used to make a set of comment cards up that caused all of the hammers
    to "fly" at the same time. That way we could take a quick nap, and when we >> heard our; sound we would wake up, walk to the line printer and pick up our >> printout. Bang-bang-bang-bang :: must have been hard on the line printer
    mechanicals...

    What it was _really_ hard on was the electonics that supplied
    current to drive all those electromagnets on the same time.

    On some printers, pulling that trick would blow fuses.

    Don't try that on an IBM 1403 N1 train printer. And don't ask me how I know.



    --
    Regards,
    John Levine, johnl@taugh.com, Primary Perpetrator of "The Internet for Dummies",
    Please consider the environment before reading this e-mail. https://jl.ly

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