Glad to see you, All!

? The various message formats are archaic and ridiculous in a lot of ways. There should be a standard implementation that is accessible on all devices. My personal preference would be for SQLite due to it's ease of use and ubiquitous distribution (how many billions of android and iOS devices have it Pre-installed?)
? The display format! ANSI for crying out loud! Surely we can do better than that? Why about send SVG commands which are rendered on the device? Maybe using the Cairo graphics libraries or their equivalent? I know RIPTerm was an early. Semi-proprietary version of this. Maybe it's time to develop a new standard which is simple and easy to implement? It beggars belief that we are using software that is actually designed with VT100 terminals in mind.
? Having said this, nothing prevents us from separating the display layer from the transmission layer. If we design the protocol sufficiently well, then that could also be relatively agnostic, or at least provide fallback options. For example, negotiation with the client with "new RIP" preferred, falling back to in descending order, Rendered SVG, PNG, HTML, ANSI and ASCII.
? Telnet. Ask anyone under thirty who is not in IT to use telnet and you may as well have spoken in a foreign language.
? Composing messages. Make it something like Markdown so it's also agnostic and the formatting is deferred to the client.
? Images. There aren't any. This is probably the biggest reason for the poor uptake after the lack of clients for devices. I'd suggest though that rather than duplicate http for this, and find ourselves with a poor man's version of the web, we think very carefully about how to implement the display of images, possibly making them "out of band". Something like "progressive jpgs" which render independently of the message and maybe even a send them using UDP so that they aren't dependent on the message. Images and video etc are, of course, big attractions to users (just look at the growth of Instagram and TikTok) but they can kill everything else. They're also bandwidth hogs. I think this is where the "control by the user" needs to be rigorously built in, there is a simple and enforceable way to select where and how images are accepted.
? Spam. Spam kills message board and conferences if not killed instantly. That's why there must be some mechanism to deal with it. Maybe ...
? Reputation. While I believe that at least in some areas it's important to have anonymity, at the same time there are some things that need to be controlled/ prevented. These include things like adult content, spam etc. I think that it should be possible to generate some way of figuring this out. One possibility could be a sort of "reputation" setting. This could have many variations but for example, if you're reputation is low (or your *rank* is 'Noob'), there are only certain things you can do, or certain conferences you can join. The longer you are part of the system, the more you participate in certain activities etc, the more tour reputation/rank can change. If, for example, no messages are accepted from /noobs/, then the hit-and-run spammers who use images won't be able to generate new user IDs to post them. If there is an algorithm that sees a user posting the same content hundreds of times, or hundreds of messages from the same address, or other variations on the theme, then they can be flagged as potentially spammers and handled programmatically. I believe this is vital however, that it be programmed in and that the rules are enforced programmatically and not by people, as it's less prone to all sorts of nonsense we see on existing platforms. What's important is that if someone /wants/ all those adverts for penis enlargement by that "doctor" from Nigeria, then there's nothing to stop him ignoring the flags and accepting those messages, but also nothing stopping all the other nodes from both refusing to accept them as well as refusing to forward them on.

I have numerous other thoughts, but I hope this is enough to generate some debate.

All the best BoonDock

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... Tag, you are IT!
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On 05-17-21 07:56, John Dovey wrote to All <=-

Glad to see you, All!

? The various message formats are archaic and ridiculous in a lot of
ways. There should be a standard implementation that is accessible on
all devices. My personal preference would be for SQLite due to it's
ease of use and ubiquitous distribution (how many billions of android
and iOS devices have it Pre-installed?)

This is a hobby where we have to be careful how we change message formats. There's a lot of legacy/retro systems that we should support, so the message transmission needs to be able to downgrade to basic ANSI, and where possible, upgrade to the more generic and flexible format, when passing messages to the wider network.


... The UARTs won't take this speed, Captain!
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Tony Langdon wrote to John Dovey <=-

This is a hobby where we have to be careful how we change message
formats. There's a lot of legacy/retro systems that we should support,
so the message transmission needs to be able to downgrade to basic
ANSI, and where possible, upgrade to the more generic and flexible
format, when passing messages to the wider network.

+1
The last thing we wish to do is what the hams did when introducing "new" digital formats where one doesn't speak to the other and now we have this massive (as I call it) tower of babel effect. Hobbies should be fun not frustrating :)

... I route, therefor you exist.
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On 05-17-21 08:04, Brian Rogers wrote to Tony Langdon <=-

+1
The last thing we wish to do is what the hams did when introducing
"new" digital formats where one doesn't speak to the other and now we
have this massive (as I call it) tower of babel effect. Hobbies should
be fun not frustrating :)

Agree totally, and yeah you're probably not surprised that I run a multimode gateway to try and bring these digital modes a little closer together. :)

... I route, therefor you exist.

Haha true, unless you've got -j DROP rules in iptables. ;)

And again, I'm messaging from the air. Offline mail still has niches where it can't be beaten. ;)


... Seriousness is the very next step to being dull.
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Hey Tony;

Tony Langdon wrote to Brian Rogers <=-

Agree totally, and yeah you're probably not surprised that I run a multimode gateway to try and bring these digital modes a little closer together. :)

How's that working out? I heard that they've been trying to come up with a method to bridge all the various protocols together but I have yet to hear
of one that is successful.

Haha true, unless you've got -j DROP rules in iptables. ;)

Oooh that's my favorite.. so seckzay too ;-> haha

And again, I'm messaging from the air. Offline mail still has niches where it can't be beaten. ;)

Since I found multimail I've been in paradise! I had a nice little tagline collection ions ago for my blue wave setup. *sigh* wish I had that.

... ZfOs dead, Jim. But hell, she was like that in the sack."
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On 05-19-21 16:41, Brian Rogers wrote to Tony Langdon <=-

Agree totally, and yeah you're probably not surprised that I run a multimode gateway to try and bring these digital modes a little closer together. :)

How's that working out? I heard that they've been trying to come up
with a method to bridge all the various protocols together but I have
yet to hear of one that is successful.

It's like a meeting place - pick your mode and connect up. Currently support 8 modes 3 "analog"(IRLP, Echolink and AllStar), plus 5 digital (P25, D-STAR, YSF, M17 and DMR).

Haha true, unless you've got -j DROP rules in iptables. ;)

Oooh that's my favorite.. so seckzay too ;-> haha

Haha yep. ;)

Since I found multimail I've been in paradise! I had a nice little
tagline collection ions ago for my blue wave setup. *sigh* wish I had that.

I love offline mail, it's so efficient, and I'm not hamstrung by network lag - those 200mS RTTs _really_ add up when the server is on the other side of the world. :)
... Be quick to listen, slow to speak, and slower to become angry.
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On 05-19-21 20:26, Brian Rogers wrote to Tony Langdon <=-

No fusion? That's what we have here. Horrible how there's just not one!
I have a brand new fusion HT purchased when it first came out. In many

Yeah, YSF is for Fusion, you can use a Yaesu Fusion radio to access YSF, but it's open source. But I don't support Wires X, because of the proprietary hoops to jump through.

areas it's totally no good. I have 5 analog HTs that are golden almost everywhere and cost so much less. The hobby is going backwards for the sake of control and greed.

Analog has its issues, especially when you network and want to identify who's who in the zoo. But not as bad as SSB, where even detecting whether there's a valid signal is kinda difficult! :)

When you think about it, pop or imap mail is very similar which must be part of why it's so popular.

Pop, yes, though it lacks the folder structure. IMAP defaults to online operation, but can work offline, but one kinda has to beat it into sumbission for best offline experience. ;)


... Sometimes you get the elevator, and sometimes you get the shaft.
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Tony Langdon wrote to Brian Rogers <=-

Yeah, YSF is for Fusion, you can use a Yaesu Fusion radio to access
YSF, but it's open source. But I don't support Wires X, because of the proprietary hoops to jump through.

Our FCC is trying to mandate *all* ham systems now be open source.
Many are upset about this, but for what I see there's no issues with ham programming being open source. How else can others improve upon something?

Analog has its issues, especially when you network and want to identify who's who in the zoo. But not as bad as SSB, where even detecting
whether there's a valid signal is kinda difficult! :)

For DECADES all we had was analog and no one griped or complained. We all have mouths and used them to ID, in fact here we must every 10 minutes. As for packet that's another ball of wax. Most packages/firmwares have back doors
in which they can do an entire QSO with a bogus ID/Callsign. Bottom line:
no one really cares.

Pop, yes, though it lacks the folder structure. IMAP defaults to
online operation, but can work offline, but one kinda has to beat it
into sumbission for best offline experience. ;)

I don't really need folder structure for 100% personal email :) Actually I can't stand imap for just that reason. I use it on some systems only because that's what I'm forced to use, but I never put a darn file or message in any "folder". I'm old-school NOS, I have one file that contains my mail <G>

... Vuja De: the feeling that nothing like this has ever happened before.
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On 05-20-21 07:01, Brian Rogers wrote to Tony Langdon <=-

Our FCC is trying to mandate *all* ham systems now be open source.
Many are upset about this, but for what I see there's no issues with
ham programming being open source. How else can others improve upon something?

Hmm, I see that being a potential can of worms, like your mandated band segments and symbol rate limits, which are a PITA for the rest of the world. If I had a dollar for everytime some US ham says "You can't do that, it's against the rules". Well, I can, our rules are different. ;)

But I do like the principle of having ham systems open, especially the air interface.

For DECADES all we had was analog and no one griped or complained. We
all have mouths and used them to ID, in fact here we must every 10

We didn't have the extent of networked systems that we do today. ;) I for one don't want to have to rely only on HF CW. HF propagation is too flakey from here to the rest of the world, especially in recent wimpy sunspot cycles. :(

minutes. As for packet that's another ball of wax. Most
packages/firmwares have back doors in which they can do an entire QSO
with a bogus ID/Callsign. Bottom line: no one really cares.

True. :)

Pop, yes, though it lacks the folder structure. IMAP defaults to
online operation, but can work offline, but one kinda has to beat it
into sumbission for best offline experience. ;)

I don't really need folder structure for 100% personal email :)
Actually I can't stand imap for just that reason. I use it on some
systems only because that's what I'm forced to use, but I never put a
darn file or message in any "folder". I'm old-school NOS, I have one
file that contains my mail <G>

Well, echomail is like folders. I have a bunch of mailing lists, and sorting those into folders helps, just like echomail. :)

... Vuja De: the feeling that nothing like this has ever happened

Haha. :D


... I have PMS and a loaded gun, now, what did you say?!?!
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Tony Langdon wrote to Brian Rogers <=-

Hmm, I see that being a potential can of worms, like your mandated band segments and symbol rate limits, which are a PITA for the rest of the world. If I had a dollar for everytime some US ham says "You can't do that, it's against the rules". Well, I can, our rules are different.
;)

Just where are you going to cash in? xD

But I do like the principle of having ham systems open, especially the
air interface.

That's not happening here. The systems are all closed source. Only decent things we have are already open source.

We didn't have the extent of networked systems that we do today. ;) I
for one don't want to have to rely only on HF CW. HF propagation is
too flakey from here to the rest of the world, especially in recent
wimpy sunspot cycles. :(

HF is what our government pushes. They want hams off VHF/UHF for ecomm
so the commercial guys can take over.

Pop, yes, though it lacks the folder structure. IMAP defaults to
online operation, but can work offline, but one kinda has to beat it
into sumbission for best offline experience. ;)

Whip it, beat it, tell it that you care <G>

Well, echomail is like folders. I have a bunch of mailing lists, and sorting those into folders helps, just like echomail. :)

Echomail and personal Email are two totally different things though.

... I have PMS and a loaded gun, now, what did you say?!?!

Does your YL know this? <G>

... X-Men Wish List: Dolph Lundgren as Colossus.
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On 05-20-21 23:53, Brian Rogers wrote to Tony Langdon <=-

Tony Langdon wrote to Brian Rogers <=-

Hmm, I see that being a potential can of worms, like your mandated band segments and symbol rate limits, which are a PITA for the rest of the world. If I had a dollar for everytime some US ham says "You can't do that, it's against the rules". Well, I can, our rules are different.
;)

Just where are you going to cash in? xD

Yeah now all I need are those dollars :D

But I do like the principle of having ham systems open, especially the
air interface.

That's not happening here. The systems are all closed source. Only
decent things we have are already open source.

Actually, there's M17, in early stages of development. D-STAR's air interface is open spec, though at one stage you needed to be able to read Japanese to get the full specs. Not sure if it's all been translated yet. Only part not open is the audio codec, and that was a case of necessity, back in the day. Had D-STAR been designed today, there's a chance Codec2 might have been chosen instead.

HF is what our government pushes. They want hams off VHF/UHF for ecomm
so the commercial guys can take over.

Pop, yes, though it lacks the folder structure. IMAP defaults to
online operation, but can work offline, but one kinda has to beat it
into sumbission for best offline experience. ;)

Whip it, beat it, tell it that you care <G>

Haha. :D

Well, echomail is like folders. I have a bunch of mailing lists, and sorting those into folders helps, just like echomail. :)

Echomail and personal Email are two totally different things though.

My folders are mostly for mailing lists, which ARE used for the same purpose as echomail. :)

... I have PMS and a loaded gun, now, what did you say?!?!

Does your YL know this? <G>

I love assumptions. :P


... Have you ever asked a question you weren't supposed to ask?
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Hello Tony;

Tony Langdon wrote to Brian Rogers <=-

But I do like the principle of having ham systems open, especially the
air interface.

If the airwaves were open source, we wouldn't pay license fees.

Actually, there's M17, in early stages of development. D-STAR's air interface is open spec, though at one stage you needed to be able to
read Japanese to get the full specs. Not sure if it's all been
translated yet. Only part not open is the audio codec, and that was a case of necessity, back in the day. Had D-STAR been designed today, there's a chance Codec2 might have been chosen instead.

Open spec is not open source though. That's just a test that says
"if you can figure out our code go for it... here's a hint". If you
need to make a patch you can't, unless it's your own code.

My folders are mostly for mailing lists, which ARE used for the same purpose as echomail. :)

I don't see physical folders but mail area indexes. Imap creates physical folders. More bytes off the drive.


... Dilate - To live long
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On 05-22-21 20:37, Brian Rogers wrote to Tony Langdon <=-

But I do like the principle of having ham systems open, especially the
air interface.

If the airwaves were open source, we wouldn't pay license fees.

Resource access is a kinda different thing.

Open spec is not open source though. That's just a test that says
"if you can figure out our code go for it... here's a hint". If you
need to make a patch you can't, unless it's your own code.

Open spec means there's an opportunity for someone to create the (open source) code, and some have - ircDDBGateway, etc, for example. :) And open spec in that it's the specs that are laid out, not just someone's code. ;)

My folders are mostly for mailing lists, which ARE used for the same purpose as echomail. :)

I don't see physical folders but mail area indexes. Imap creates
physical folders. More bytes off the drive.

Bytes? as if anyone cares in this days of multi terabyte drives. ;)



... Science is nothing but trained and organized common sense.
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Hey Tony;

Tony Langdon wrote to Brian Rogers <=-

Resource access is a kinda different thing.

That's part of why in the packet world, most guys don't even bother with setting up radios, they just go axudp. No tests needed either.

Open spec means there's an opportunity for someone to create the (open source) code, and some have - ircDDBGateway, etc, for example. :) And open spec in that it's the specs that are laid out, not just someone's code. ;)

Not in all cases. I did that with the linux version of Winlink RMS. That
began a very intense and nasty relationship.

Bytes? as if anyone cares in this days of multi terabyte drives. ;)

I like smaller drives, they back up a LOT quicker. If I had hot-swap raid that'd be another story.



... AD&D Famous Last Words: Am I seeing things or is that a dragon?
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