Hello Everybody,

This is a friendly "reminder" to all sysops in this echo that
the entity known as Fabio Bizzo is out of line. Fidonet is *not*
social media, or any other such animal. Censorship is *not* a
part of Fidonet, and never has been. Messages that are written
are *not* prescreened by so-called "moderators" before posting.

If the entity known as Fabio Bizzo wishes to establish his own
little network, that is fine. But to claim that network is Fidonet
is not, and never will be, recognized as legitimate.

The fact of the matter is the entity known as Fabio Bizzo is a
fraud, a con-man. Just like The Orange Man in the USA.

Here is what a Kiwi living in the land of Oz has to say about
Fidonet. He explains it all so nicely, and so concisely -

Fidonet is not Internet Social Media. Each of those entire sites
is managed by one entity. Fidonet is NOT an entity - it is a
technical agreement by a bunch of individuals. We are all omnipotent
- on our own systems only. You are free to implement a "no trolls"
edict on YOUR system. You don't have that power on any others.

Anybody want to disagree?

Fabio's silence tells it all.

"Trolls just want to have fun." ~Cyndi Lauper

--Lee

--
Every Bottom Needs A Top

--- MesNews/1.08.05.00-gb
* Origin: - nntp://rbb.fidonet.fi - Lake Ylo - Finland - (2:221/360)

On 8/10/2019 05:59, Lee Lofaso -> All wrote:

Here is what a Kiwi living in the land of Oz has to say about
Fidonet. He explains it all so nicely, and so concisely -

Fidonet is not Internet Social Media. Each of those entire sites
is managed by one entity. Fidonet is NOT an entity - it is a
technical agreement by a bunch of individuals. We are all omnipotent
- on our own systems only. You are free to implement a "no trolls"
edict on YOUR system. You don't have that power on any others.

Do you have to pay me royalties every time you quote me?

--

Regards
David

--- Mozilla/5.0 (Windows NT 6.1; rv:31.0) Gecko/20100101 Thunderbird/31.8.0
* Origin: Straylia Mate (3:640/305)

On 10-07-19 22:59, Lee Lofaso <=-
spoke to All about Reminder to Sysops <=-

-!- MesNews/1.08.05.00-gb
! Origin: - nntp://rbb.fidonet.fi - Lake Ylo - Finland - (2:221/360)

Well, now you have finally done it and burned your source into
a restricted sysop echo, or at least one of your sources.

Dale Shipp
fido_261_1466 (at) verizon (dot) net
(1:261/1466)


... Shipwrecked on Hesperus in Columbia, Maryland. 02:59:42, 08 Oct 2019
___ Blue Wave/DOS v2.30

--- Maximus/NT 3.01
* Origin: Owl's Anchor (1:261/1466)

Hello Dale,

Well, now you have finally done it and burned your source into
a restricted sysop echo, or at least one of your sources.

Restricted? Sez who? The "moderator" is a paper tiger. And
not all sysops agree with the tactics of character assassination.
And most assuredly not the other kind of assassination.

"You can't kill an idea by killing the person. If he has a
constituency, they'll be influenced at what you've done, whether
they realize it at the time or find out for sure later. It's
counterproductive in so many ways. You just end up creating new
monsters and new problems."
~ Fr. Robert Drinan, Georgetown University Law Center

Yeah. I'm a monster. And I create lots of new problems for
the likes of Fabio Bizzo. Don't you love it?

--Lee

--
Often Licked, Never Beaten

--- MesNews/1.08.05.00-gb
* Origin: - nntp://rbb.fidonet.fi - Lake Ylo - Finland - (2:221/360)

Lee Lofaso wrote to Dale Shipp <=-

Yeah. I'm a monster. And I create lots of new problems for
the likes of Fabio Bizzo. Don't you love it?

I bet Fabio is losing a lot of sleep over this. :)



... What do you think management's real interests are?
--- MultiMail/XT v0.52
* Origin: http://realitycheckbbs.org | tomorrow's retro tech (1:218/700)

Hello Kurt,

Yeah. I'm a monster. And I create lots of new problems for
the likes of Fabio Bizzo. Don't you love it?

I bet Fabio is losing a lot of sleep over this. :)

"Mommy, there are monsters under my bed!" ~Fabio Bizzo

Fabio wasn't kidding. Just listen to what his mommy sang to him,
every night when she tucked him into bed, when he was a little boy -

"Ninna Nanna"

Ninna nanna, ninna oh
To whom shall I give this baby?

If I give it to the old hag,
She'll keep it for a week.

If I give it to bogeyman,
He'll keep it for an entire year.

If I give it to the white wolf,
He'll keep it for a long time.

Lullaby sleep fairies
Send my baby to sleep.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ACCKVO6izBA


In Italy, the old hag, the bogeyman, and the white wolf will get you,
but not because they'll drag you off. No, your mother's going to just
give you to them.

If that doesn't give a kid nightmares, I do not know what will.

Of course, this was always sung to little Fabio in Italian, so he
could truly understand what it was all about. I have taken the liberty
of translating it into English, as my grandfather was Sicilian, and
spoke the language fluently.

--Lee

--
I Take A Sheet In The Pool

--- MesNews/1.08.05.00-gb
* Origin: - nntp://rbb.fidonet.fi - Lake Ylo - Finland - (2:221/360)

Hello Lee!

Tuesday October 08 2019 23:52, you wrote to Kurt Weiske:

every night when she tucked him into bed, when he was a little boy -

"Ninna Nanna"

Ninna nanna, ninna oh
To whom shall I give this baby?

Enough already - you are becoming very annoying to all of us Sysops.

On top of which as you are not a noded sysop in Fidonet you should be be able to post in this echo area.



Vince

--- Mageia Linux v7.1 X64/Mbse v1.0.7.12A/GoldED+/LNX 1.1.5-b20180707
* Origin: Air Applewood, The Linux Gateway to the UK & Eire (2:250/1)

Hello Vince,

every night when she tucked him into bed, when he was a little boy -

"Ninna Nanna"

Ninna nanna, ninna oh
To whom shall I give this baby?

Enough already - you are becoming very annoying to all of us Sysops.

You have got to be kidding me. A dozen or so sysops (15 by your
own count) posting a small handful of messages in this echo, and
you call that "all of us Sysops"? You should thank me for making
this area such a popular place to be, with so much added traffic.

As a whole, the number of sysops in Fidonet is a few hundred, not
over a thousand total. Those numbers continue to dwindle as time
goes on. Why is that? What can be done to generate new interest
in this hobby, so that Fidonet can grow again? It is not going
to happen by twitting those who are already here, I guarantee.

I am sorry you (and the small handful of sysops here) did not like
my singing. However, I did include a link for all to listen to the
song in Italian. Or if you prefer, just ask Fabio to sing it for
you. I am sure he would be happy to oblige.

On top of which as you are not a noded sysop in Fidonet you should be be
able to post in this echo area.

So what? Why is that important? You should be thankful that I am
here. You should also hope that others like me will follow. That is
how an echo grows in popularity. And also how to make Fidonet grow
again, rather than continue to decay into nothingness.

With only 15 sysops (including yourself) sending and receiving
messages, it won't be long before there are less than a dozen.
And then it won't really matter if this echo exists or not.

Much better to welcome trolls, and invite them all to fully participate
in what Fidonet has to offer. You can do it, if only you try.

One more time -

Fidonet is NOT an entity - it is a technical agreement by a bunch
of individuals. We are all omnipotent - on our own systems only.
You are free to implement a "no trolls" edict on YOUR system. You
don't have that power on any others.

Now. Go cry to the sysop who runs your system. Let the tears flow.
And then go look into the mirror. And see who is the fairest of them
all.

--Lee

--
Often Licked, Never Beaten

--- MesNews/1.08.05.00-gb
* Origin: - nntp://rbb.fidonet.fi - Lake Ylo - Finland - (2:221/360)

Lee Lofaso wrote to Vince Coen <=-

Enough already - you are becoming very annoying to all of us Sysops.

You have got to be kidding me. A dozen or so sysops (15 by your
own count) posting a small handful of messages in this echo, and
you call that "all of us Sysops"? You should thank me for making
this area such a popular place to be, with so much added traffic.

Why is this asswipe troll being allowed to pollute this SYSOP-ONLY
echo area?

It's obvious that he's doing it via Usenet... why is this area
being gated to Usenet? It should not be.

* Origin: - nntp://rbb.fidonet.fi - Lake Ylo - Finland - (2:221/360)

Tommi, can you please fix this?


... All the easy problems have been solved.
=== MultiMail/Linux v0.52
--- SBBSecho 3.10-Linux
* Origin: Palantir * palantirbbs.ddns.net * Pensacola, FL * (1:123/115)

Why is this asswipe troll being allowed to pollute this SYSOP-ONLY
echo area?

Because he is offered this forum and no-one is lifting a finger, or is incapable, or hasn't dealt with the situation ... yet.

\%/@rd

--- D'Bridge 3.99
* Origin: Do not meddle in the affairs of wizards (2:292/854)

On 09.10.2019 15:26, Dan Clough : Lee Lofaso :

Lee Lofaso wrote to Vince Coen <=-

Enough already - you are becoming very annoying to all of us Sysops.

"All of us Sysops"? I find that very hard to believe...

You have got to be kidding me. A dozen or so sysops (15 by your
own count) posting a small handful of messages in this echo, and
you call that "all of us Sysops"? You should thank me for making
this area such a popular place to be, with so much added traffic.

Why is this asswipe troll being allowed to pollute this SYSOP-ONLY
echo area?

It's obvious that he's doing it via Usenet...

Obvious? Please explain.

why is this area being gated to Usenet?

Is it?

* Origin: - nntp://rbb.fidonet.fi - Lake Ylo - Finland - (2:221/360)

Tommi, can you please fix this?

Access to this echo adjusted for a certain user group, for now. However,
I haven't seen any message about this issue from the moderator(s) of
this echo.

'Tommi

--- Mozilla/5.0 (Windows NT 6.1; WOW64; rv:31.0) Gecko/20100101 Thunderbird/31.
* Origin: - nntp://rbb.fidonet.fi - Lake Ylo - Finland - (2:221/360)

Hello, Tommi Koivula.
On 09/10/19 19:14 you wrote:

I haven't seen any message about this issue from the moderator(s)
of this echo.

Please may I ask you (or everyone who knows about) if you know who's the moderator of this echo?

I've never seen the usual monthly post for the description and the rules of this echo.

Many thanks. :)

'Tommi --- Mozilla/5.0 (Windows NT 6.1; WOW64; rv:31.0)
Gecko/20100101 Thunderbird/31. * Origin: - nntp://rbb.fidonet.fi
- Lake Ylo - Finland - (2:221/360)

--
Ciao! :)
Fabio.
--- Hotdoged/2.13.5/Android
* Origin: ]\/[imac boss android point (2:335/364.3)

I've never seen the usual monthly post for the description and the rules of this echo.

For some 15 years I was the moderator here, and posted the rules every month.

For some 15 years a bunch of Z1 sysops wanted to replace me as moderator. By all means, I didn't give a shit. I let them replace me, and all of a sudden there was no longer a moderator here.

You reap what you sow...




..

--- Mozilla/5.0 (Windows; U; Windows NT 5.1; sv-SE; rv:1.9.1.16) Gecko/20101125
* Origin: news://eljaco.se (2:203/2)

I haven't seen any message about this issue from the moderator(s)
of this echo.

Please may I ask you (or everyone who knows about) if you know who's the moderator of this echo?

Exactly! :D

'Tommi

--- Mozilla/5.0 (Windows NT 6.1; WOW64; rv:31.0) Gecko/20100101 Thunderbird/31.
* Origin: Ubuntu 16.04.6 LTS (GNU/Linux 4.4.0-1118-raspi2 armv7l) (2:221/360)

From Bj”rn Felten To Fabio Bizzi

For some 15 years a bunch of Z1 sysops wanted to replace me as
moderator. By all means, I didn't give a shit. I let them replace me,
and all of a sudden there was no longer a moderator here.

Election!! Time for an election for a new pope! ;D

--- Mozilla/5.0 (Windows NT 6.1; WOW64; rv:31.0) Gecko/20100101 Thunderbird/31.7.0
* Origin: smapinntpd/linux @ nntps://news.fidonet.fi (2:221/6.0)

Hello, Tommi Koivula.
On 09/10/19 20:35 you wrote:

I haven't seen any message about this issue from the

moderator(s) TK> of this echo. Please may I ask you (or everyone
who knows about) if you know who's the moderator of this echo?

Exactly! :D

Touche! :D
--
Ciao! :)
Fabio.
--- Hotdoged/2.13.5/Android
* Origin: ]\/[imac boss android point (2:335/364.3)

Hello, Bj�rn Felten.
On 09/10/19 19:20 you wrote:

For some 15 years I was the moderator here, and posted the
rules every month.
For some 15 years a bunch of Z1 sysops wanted to replace me as moderator. By all means, I didn't give a shit. I let them replace
me, and all of a sudden there was no longer a moderator here.
You reap what you sow...

So is this nobody's land?

--
Ciao! :)
Fabio.
--- Hotdoged/2.13.5/Android
* Origin: ]\/[imac boss android point (2:335/364.3)

Hello, Tommi Koivula.
On 09/10/19 20:39 you wrote:

From Bj�rn Felten To Fabio Bizzi

For some 15 years a bunch of Z1 sysops wanted to replace me as
moderator. By all means, I didn't give a shit. I let them replace
me, and all of a sudden there was no longer a moderator here.

Election!! Time for an election for a new pope! ;D

But let me say an ancient Roman sentence... "dead one pope always makes another" ;)
--
Ciao! :)
Fabio.
--- Hotdoged/2.13.5/Android
* Origin: ]\/[imac boss android point (2:335/364.3)

For some 15 years a bunch of Z1 sysops wanted to replace me as
moderator. By all means, I didn't give a shit. I let them replace me,
and all of a sudden there was no longer a moderator here.

Election!! Time for an election for a new pope! ;D

This is a sysop only echo. Always has been.

It's true that the current moderator is absent. Moderators are absent in the vast majority of echoes today.

If we had a moderator present would it really change anything?

--- BBBS/Li6 v4.10 Toy-4
* Origin: The Rusty MailBox - Penticton, BC Canada (1:153/757)

Tommi Koivula wrote to Dan Clough <=-

Why is this asswipe troll being allowed to pollute this SYSOP-ONLY
echo area?

It's obvious that he's doing it via Usenet...

Obvious? Please explain.

Well, it seems obvious to me. See the origin line below which
shows where the troll's post originated? "nntp:..."

why is this area being gated to Usenet?

Is it?

Yes. See above (and below).

* Origin: - nntp://rbb.fidonet.fi - Lake Ylo - Finland - (2:221/360)

Tommi, can you please fix this?

Access to this echo adjusted for a certain user group, for now.
However, I haven't seen any message about this issue from the
moderator(s) of this echo.

Well, the *NAME* of the echo provides a pretty good clue that
access should be restricted to Sysops. Doesn't it?


... Backup not found: (A)bort (R)etry (P)anic
=== MultiMail/Linux v0.52
--- SBBSecho 3.10-Linux
* Origin: Palantir * palantirbbs.ddns.net * Pensacola, FL * (1:123/115)

Ward Dossche wrote to Dan Clough <=-

Why is this asswipe troll being allowed to pollute this SYSOP-ONLY
echo area?

Because he is offered this forum and no-one is lifting a finger,
or is incapable, or hasn't dealt with the situation ... yet.

Okay, hopefully somebody will soon...



... Nothing is so smiple that it can't get screwed up.
=== MultiMail/Linux v0.52
--- SBBSecho 3.10-Linux
* Origin: Palantir * palantirbbs.ddns.net * Pensacola, FL * (1:123/115)

Hi! Tommi,

On 10/10/2019 08:47 AM, Dan Clough wrote to you:

> It's obvious that he's doing it via Usenet...
TK> Obvious? Please explain.

Well, it seems obvious to me. See the origin line below which
shows where the troll's post originated? "nntp:..."

Mmm... nntp == not normally to people ????

TK> Is it?
Yes. See above (and below).

Ooh, Tommi! I see what you did there...

> LL> * Origin: - nntp://rbb.fidonet.fi - Lake Ylo - Finland - (2:221/360)

Are the lakes sorted alphabetically there? ;)

Cheers,
Paul.

--- Mozilla/5.0 (X11; Linux i686; rv:31.0) Gecko/20100101 Thunderbird/31.4.0
* Origin: - nntp://rbb.fidonet.fi - Lake Ylo - Finland - (2:221/360)

On 9/10/2019 08:17, Vince Coen -> Lee Lofaso wrote:

On top of which as you are not a noded sysop in Fidonet you should be be

able

to post in this echo area.

According to whom?

--

Regards
David

--- Mozilla/5.0 (Windows NT 6.1; rv:31.0) Gecko/20100101 Thunderbird/31.8.0
* Origin: Straylia Mate (3:640/305)

On 9/10/2019 19:02, Fabio Bizzi -> Tommi Koivula wrote:

I haven't seen any message about this issue from the moderator(s)
of this echo.

Please may I ask you (or everyone who knows about) if you know who's the moderator of this echo?

I've never seen the usual monthly post for the description and the rules of this echo.

Everyone is. We all moderate our own posts (in our opinion).

--

Regards
David

--- Mozilla/5.0 (Windows NT 6.1; rv:31.0) Gecko/20100101 Thunderbird/31.8.0
* Origin: Straylia Mate (3:640/305)

On 9/10/2019 19:49, Fabio Bizzi -> Bj�rn Felten wrote:

For some 15 years I was the moderator here, and posted the
rules every month.
For some 15 years a bunch of Z1 sysops wanted to replace me as
moderator. By all means, I didn't give a shit. I let them replace
me, and all of a sudden there was no longer a moderator here.
You reap what you sow...

So is this nobody's land?

Or everybody's

--

Regards
David

--- Mozilla/5.0 (Windows NT 6.1; rv:31.0) Gecko/20100101 Thunderbird/31.8.0
* Origin: Straylia Mate (3:640/305)

On 9/10/2019 22:26, Dan Clough -> Lee Lofaso wrote:

You have got to be kidding me. A dozen or so sysops (15 by your
own count) posting a small handful of messages in this echo, and
you call that "all of us Sysops"? You should thank me for making
this area such a popular place to be, with so much added traffic.

Why is this asswipe troll being allowed to pollute this SYSOP-ONLY
echo area?

As documented... where?

It's obvious that he's doing it via Usenet... why is this area
being gated to Usenet? It should not be.

As documented... where?

--

Regards
David

--- Mozilla/5.0 (Windows NT 6.1; rv:31.0) Gecko/20100101 Thunderbird/31.8.0
* Origin: Straylia Mate (3:640/305)

Why is this asswipe troll being allowed to pollute this SYSOP-ONLY
echo area?

As documented... where?

Documents eh?

The rules have been posted over and over again for decades.

--- BBBS/Li6 v4.10 Toy-4
* Origin: The Rusty MailBox - Penticton, BC Canada (1:153/757)

On 2019 Oct 09 15:47:42, you wrote to Dan Clough:

Why is this asswipe troll being allowed to pollute this SYSOP-ONLY
echo area?

Because he is offered this forum and no-one is lifting a finger, or is incapable, or hasn't dealt with the situation ... yet.

three phrases come to mind from the last attempt at lifting a finger concerning that system...

coup attempt!
fidoweb...
petard...

maybe it'll work better this time with others attempting it?? :shrug:

)\/(ark

Once men turned their thinking over to machines in the hope that this would set them free. But that only permitted other men with machines to enslave them.
... What good is a Doomsday Weapon if you keep it a secret?!
---
* Origin: (1:3634/12.73)

On 2019 Oct 09 07:26:00, you wrote to Lee Lofaso:

It's obvious that he's doing it via Usenet...

he isn't...

why is this area being gated to Usenet? It should not be.

it is not... just because messages are available on a news server doesn't mean they are on usenet... you do run a synchronet bbs, don't you? do you have the news server enabled for access to the message areas you carry? is your system pat of usenet? do you feed your message areas into usenet? ;) ;) ;)

)\/(ark

Once men turned their thinking over to machines in the hope that this would set them free. But that only permitted other men with machines to enslave them.
... Tremble your way to Fitness...
---
* Origin: (1:3634/12.73)

On 10/10/2019 11:20, Alan Ianson -> David Drummond wrote:

Why is this asswipe troll being allowed to pollute this SYSOP-ONLY
echo area?

As documented... where?

Documents eh?

The rules have been posted over and over again for decades.

But not any more - they are no longer valid.

Such rules are for people who are unable to determine for themselves how to behave (or for power crazed control freaks to exert their will on others.

If you don't want to read something then don't fucking read it. Take responsibility for yourself and your thin skinned ability to take offence.

--

Regards
David

--- Mozilla/5.0 (Windows NT 6.1; rv:31.0) Gecko/20100101 Thunderbird/31.8.0
* Origin: Straylia Mate (3:640/305)

As documented... where?

Documents eh?

The rules have been posted over and over again for decades.

But not any more - they are no longer valid.

As documented... where?

Such rules are for people who are unable to determine for themselves how to behave (or for power crazed control freaks to exert their will on others.

Echo rules are for power crazed control freak?

If you don't want to read something then don't fucking read it. Take responsibility for yourself and your thin skinned ability to take offence.

I'm not offended. I was just pointing out the documents you requested. ;)

--- BBBS/Li6 v4.10 Toy-4
* Origin: The Rusty MailBox - Penticton, BC Canada (1:153/757)

Hello David!

Thursday October 10 2019 10:50, you wrote to me:

On 9/10/2019 08:17, Vince Coen -> Lee Lofaso wrote:

On top of which as you are not a noded sysop in Fidonet you
should be be able to post in this echo area.

According to whom?

--

This echo is for use my Sysops only hence it's name.

It has always been designated as an area that only sysops can post too but any one can read.

If the current moderator is around (Allen Prurty) he will respond but as he has
not been evident for over a year he may still be very unwell.

He is a moderator of a few echo's including DC_UNIVERSE and MARVEL_UNIVERSE.

Although according to my area history going back to Oct 2017, I cannot find any
postings of echo rules for this echo nor in the last ELST(1905) dated May 2019 but there are only 16 echos with rules posted there and FN_SYSOP is not shown at all.

May be, a new moderator should be elected.

Vince

--- Mageia Linux v7.1 X64/Mbse v1.0.7.12A/GoldED+/LNX 1.1.5-b20180707
* Origin: Air Applewood, The Linux Gateway to the UK & Eire (2:250/1)

mark lewis wrote to Dan Clough <=-

On 2019 Oct 09 07:26:00, you wrote to Lee Lofaso:

It's obvious that he's doing it via Usenet...

he isn't...

why is this area being gated to Usenet? It should not be.

it is not... just because messages are available on a news server
doesn't mean they are on usenet...

Yes.... OK, I see that.

you do run a synchronet bbs, don't you? do you have the news
server enabled for access to the message areas you carry?

No, I don't. My reasoning is that with the scarcity of callers,
what are the odds that one is going to try and access my message
areas with an nntp client. Yep...... the odds are ZERO. ;)

is your system part of usenet? do you
feed your message areas into usenet? ;) ;) ;)

OK, I see what you mean now. I had seen where the troll was
posting via that access method, and ASSumed... :)

I guess my real point here (and there) was that the troll should
not have access to this echo via nntp, echomail, or any other
protocol/method. It's for sysops only.


... Internal Error: The system has been taken over by sheep at line 19960
=== MultiMail/Linux v0.52
--- SBBSecho 3.10-Linux
* Origin: Palantir * palantirbbs.ddns.net * Pensacola, FL * (1:123/115)

On 10 Oct 19 19:26:40, David Drummond said the following to Alan Ianson:

Such rules are for people who are unable to determine for themselves how

to

behave (or for power crazed control freaks to exert their will on others.

If you don't want to read something then don't fucking read it. Take responsibility for yourself and your thin skinned ability to take offence.

"Offense" is one thing. Someone writes something stupid to you, you can happily hit the Next key and move on. The message may be Annoying, but others may rightfully tell you to not be easily annoyed.

"Antagonistic" behavior which ticks off many Sysops such as non stop
trolling posts about someone (ie. ZC1, ZC2) and cross-posting Sysop echo content could be considered Excessively Annoying Behavior when that Next key must be hit many times by many people, or a conversation cannot be held without non-stop antagonism. After all, the troll admits to doing it for fun.

At least once a week, I receive Netmails from Sysops around the world complaining about the shit-quality of Fidonet.

Unfortunately Fidonet will never ever be as good as Othernets. It needs to have rules and kick out trolls, because it is clear there are operators who
are not mature enough to respect others. None of this antagonism exists on
any Othernet, and Othernets don't even have rules or nanny moderators.

Echomail is clearly covered by P4. Fidonet needs an IC and certain portions of P4 enforced correctly. Watch the troll shut the fuck up when that happens
and watch the quality of Fidonet conversation slowly improve.

Nick

--- Renegade vY2Ka2
* Origin: Joey, do you like movies about gladiators? (1:229/426)

On 10/10/2019 12:33, Nick Andre -> David Drummond wrote:

Such rules are for people who are unable to determine for themselves how to
behave (or for power crazed control freaks to exert their will on others.

If you don't want to read something then don't fucking read it. Take
responsibility for yourself and your thin skinned ability to take offence.

"Offense" is one thing. Someone writes something stupid to you, you can happily hit the Next key and move on. The message may be Annoying, but others may rightfully tell you to not be easily annoyed.

Messages cannot be annoying. It is up to you to choose to be annoyed.

"Antagonistic" behavior which ticks off many Sysops such as non stop trolling posts about someone (ie. ZC1, ZC2) and cross-posting Sysop echo content could be considered Excessively Annoying Behavior

Why is your consideration more valid than anyone else's? We are not all as narrow minded as you appear to be.

when that Next key must be hit many times by many people, or a

conversation cannot be held

without non-stop antagonism. After all, the troll admits to doing it for fun.

Don't you have fun posting in Fidonet.

Do you know how to filter a message source from your reader?

At least once a week, I receive Netmails from Sysops around the world complaining about the shit-quality of Fidonet.

Have you been elected as the world-wide Fidonet echo message arbitor?

I must have missed that election.

Unfortunately Fidonet will never ever be as good as Othernets. It needs

to

have rules and kick out trolls, because it is clear there are operators

who

are not mature enough to respect others. None of this antagonism exists

on

any Othernet, and Othernets don't even have rules or nanny moderators.

Fidonetters have been stirring each other up since I (before) joined in the early 80's. Nothing has changed - just less of us.

Echomail is clearly covered by P4. Fidonet needs an IC and certain

portions of

P4 enforced correctly.

Can you quote the part of policy that covers echomail content please? I can't spot it.

Watch the troll shut the fuck up when that happens
and watch the quality of Fidonet conversation slowly improve.

Just because someone with whom you disagree posts here it doesn't stop you from continuing your "improved quality" conversation.

Or do you think that only topics you consider "improved quality" should be allowed?

How do you propose to "enforce" any of your draconian rules?

--

Regards
David

--- Mozilla/5.0 (Windows NT 6.1; rv:31.0) Gecko/20100101 Thunderbird/31.8.0
* Origin: Straylia Mate (3:640/305)

On 10/10/2019 20:42, Alan Ianson -> David Drummond wrote:

The rules have been posted over and over again for decades.

But not any more - they are no longer valid.

As documented... where?

Nowhere - that is the point. These rules you carry o about do not exist here.

Such rules are for people who are unable to determine for themselves how to
behave (or for power crazed control freaks to exert their will on others.

Echo rules are for power crazed control freak?

Yes - someone has to enforce them and get the woody.

If you don't want to read something then don't fucking read it. Take
responsibility for yourself and your thin skinned ability to take
offence.

I'm not offended. I was just pointing out the documents you requested. ;)

Oh? I've missed the pointer.

--

Regards
David

--- Mozilla/5.0 (Windows NT 6.1; rv:31.0) Gecko/20100101 Thunderbird/31.8.0
* Origin: Straylia Mate (3:640/305)

On 11 Oct 19 08:15:28, David Drummond said the following to Nick Andre:

Don't you have fun posting in Fidonet.

I have made lifelong friends from Fidonet, around the world. Many fun conversations both Echomail and Netmail... fun is an understatement.

Can you quote the part of policy that covers echomail content please? I

can

spot it.

The first part of 9.9.

How do you propose to "enforce" any of your draconian rules?

Very logically and politely. Go back a little bit in your message base, and read my reply to Ward when he asked how to deal with a troll.

Then notice that at the precise moment when I explained it, the troll shit his pants in Fidonews and began whining about American free-speech USA-number-one nonsense. Notice how absolutely no-one came to his defense.

If I'm so wrong, everyone would cry murder... remember I have everyone looking to pounce on anything I write as long as I occupy 1:1/0. Wilfred, Michiel, Bjorn, maybe Janis and lowercase Mark Lewis.

Crickets chirping from ALL of them.

You can always hit the Next key if draconian rules annoy you?

Nick

--- Renegade vY2Ka2
* Origin: Joey, do you like movies about gladiators? (1:229/426)

On 10/10/2019 21:55, Vince Coen -> David Drummond wrote:

On top of which as you are not a noded sysop in Fidonet you
should be be able to post in this echo area.

According to whom?

--

This echo is for use my Sysops only hence it's name.

It has always been designated as an area that only sysops can post too
but any one can read.

Not any more...

--

Regards
David

--- Mozilla/5.0 (Windows NT 6.1; rv:31.0) Gecko/20100101 Thunderbird/31.8.0
* Origin: Straylia Mate (3:640/305)

On 10/10/2019 22:38, Dan Clough -> mark lewis wrote:

I guess my real point here (and there) was that the troll should
not have access to this echo via nntp, echomail, or any other protocol/method. It's for sysops only.

A common mis-thought it appears.

Sysops are not some almighty elite class any more - we're just the users of Fidonet.

Welcome to the 21st century.

--

Regards
David

--- Mozilla/5.0 (Windows NT 6.1; rv:31.0) Gecko/20100101 Thunderbird/31.8.0
* Origin: Straylia Mate (3:640/305)

On 10/10/2019 19:56, Nick Andre -> David Drummond wrote:

Don't you have fun posting in Fidonet.

I have made lifelong friends from Fidonet, around the world. Many fun conversations both Echomail and Netmail... fun is an understatement.

And yet someone who has fun making contentious posts is not allowed to have fun?

Can you quote the part of policy that covers echomail content please? I can
spot it.

The first part of 9.9.

<snip>
9.9 Echomail

Echomail is an important and powerful force in FidoNet. For the purposes of Policy Disputes, echomail is simply a different flavor of netmail, and is therefore covered by Policy. By its nature, echomail places unique technical and social demands on the net over and above those covered by this version of Policy. In recognition of this, an echomail policy which extends (and does not contradict) general Policy, maintained by the Echomail Coordinators, and ratified by a process similar to that of this document, is recognized by the FidoNet Coordinators as a valid structure for dispute resolution on matters pertaining to echomail. At some future date the echomail policy document may be merged with this one.
</snip>

I don't see "content" mentioned once. I wonder if the EchoPol covered that...

How do you propose to "enforce" any of your draconian rules?

Very logically and politely. Go back a little bit in your message base,

and

read my reply to Ward when he asked how to deal with a troll.

The trouble with all such suggestions is that NOBODY has any power in Fidonet outside of their own systems.

Then notice that at the precise moment when I explained it, the troll

shit his

pants in Fidonews and began whining about American free-speech

USA-number-one

nonsense. Notice how absolutely no-one came to his defense.

Could it be that no-one who actually cares reads his posts? I suggest you follow the same model - a fact of life is "a person is responsible for their own happiness."

If I'm so wrong, everyone would cry murder... remember I have everyone looking to pounce on anything I write as long as I occupy 1:1/0. Wilfred,

Michiel,

Bjorn, maybe Janis and lowercase Mark Lewis.

Crickets chirping from ALL of them.

Maybe they don't give a fuck about your postings... they have next keys too.

You can always hit the Next key if draconian rules annoy you?

Follow the "LL method"? He seems to take a lot of notice of your demands.... not!

Your complaints about trolls remind me of the asinine bullshit about "cyber bullying" in social media. Surely the party being bullied can just "un-friend" the bully and the problem would cease to exist. If someone is bullying you, are they your friend?

I repeat, we are each responsible for our own happiness!

--

Regards
David

--- Mozilla/5.0 (Windows NT 6.1; rv:31.0) Gecko/20100101 Thunderbird/31.8.0
* Origin: Straylia Mate (3:640/305)

Nick Andre wrote to David Drummond <=-

How do you propose to "enforce" any of your draconian rules?

Very logically and politely. Go back a little bit in your message
base, and read my reply to Ward when he asked how to deal with a
troll.

Then notice that at the precise moment when I explained it, the
troll shit his pants in Fidonews and began whining about American free-speech USA-number-one nonsense. Notice how absolutely no-one
came to his defense.

If I'm so wrong, everyone would cry murder... remember I have
everyone looking to pounce on anything I write as long as I
occupy 1:1/0. Wilfred, Michiel, Bjorn, maybe Janis and lowercase
Mark Lewis.

Crickets chirping from ALL of them.

You can always hit the Next key if draconian rules annoy you?

Drummond thinks that only "everybody else" should just use the
Next key, and reminds us of that frequently, but seems unable to
just do it himself.

Damn near as bad as the troll itself.

I only see his bullshit when somebody quotes him.


... All hope abandon, ye who enter messages here.
=== MultiMail/Linux v0.52
--- SBBSecho 3.10-Linux
* Origin: Palantir * palantirbbs.ddns.net * Pensacola, FL * (1:123/115)

On 11 Oct 19 12:21:59, David Drummond said the following to Nick Andre:

I have made lifelong friends from Fidonet, around the world. Many fun conversations both Echomail and Netmail... fun is an understatement.

And yet someone who has fun making contentious posts is not allowed to

have

fun?

When his fun spoils the fun for others, its not fun anymore.

To be fair, I would of said the same about Roy Witt. Antagonising German
Sysops and having his fun insulting European Sysops constantly; to the point where many wanted something done about his trolling behavior. The level of trolling was far beyond anything the current troll could ever shit out.
Zone 2 Sysops have his fun little catchphrases still memorized today...

Then there was Bob "I'll filter Drummy" Seaborn, Ross, maybe a few others perpetrating the zone-war. Might be fun for those involved to have one but believe me many observing Sysops jumped ship for greener pastures, as you say.

The first part of 9.9.

<snip>
9.9 Echomail

Echomail is an important and powerful force in FidoNet. For the purposes Policy Disputes, echomail is simply a different flavor of netmail, and is therefore covered by Policy. By its nature, echomail places unique

technic

Good for you, you can quote.... Echomail is covered by Policy. Period.

The rest of your message looks like a Mark Lewis rant which I'll politely ignore; I clearly made my point - The troll can be removed and pissing me off only instigates the fun I'll have making it happen. Period. End of topic.

Nick

--- Renegade vY2Ka2
* Origin: Joey, do you like movies about gladiators? (1:229/426)

And yet someone who has fun making contentious posts is not allowed to have fun?

Sure they are just like i can make the point that you are a douche, just
facts. No policy quoting, no nit picking verbiage from P4 (I will leave that
to you) just the fact that you are a grade A douchebag.

If you don't like it, hit next or better yet, grab Fabio's script and filter
me out. Won't change the fact you are a douche.

|15frank |08// |15netsurge
|07disksh0p|08!|07bbs |08% |07bbs.diskshop.ca |08% |07mystic goodness |11SciNet |03ftn hq |08% |07https://scinet-ftn.org

--- Mystic BBS v1.12 A43 2019/03/02 (Linux/64)
* Origin: % disksh0p!bbs % bbs.diskshop.ca % SciNet ftn hq % (1:229/101)

On 10 Oct 19 21:34:00, Dan Clough said the following to Nick Andre:

Drummond thinks that only "everybody else" should just use the
Next key, and reminds us of that frequently, but seems unable to
just do it himself.

Its why the current quality of Fidonet is such shit and why every single Othernet is far superior now... even the dead ones. And I am saying this as ZC1. Its shit. Why am I around? I made serious friendships from it and am technically competent to produce a Nodelist. I'm a mailer-developer too.

Like I said too... Othernets don't even have rules or nanny moderators to remind of the rules. Fidonet is supposed to be "the" network, instead its
"the" network to largely avoid. Its "the" network that *needs* nannies and policy because the actions of some immature operators ruin it for the rest.

I made my point and I'm actually dropping the topic; that a troll can be removed and doing so would be a huge benefit to cleaning up Fido's reputation.

Nick

--- Renegade vY2Ka2
* Origin: Joey, do you like movies about gladiators? (1:229/426)

Hi Dan.

09 Oct 19 17:47:00, you wrote to me:

Tommi Koivula wrote to Dan Clough <=-

Why is this asswipe troll being allowed to pollute this SYSOP-ONLY
echo area?

It's obvious that he's doing it via Usenet...

Obvious? Please explain.

Well, it seems obvious to me. See the origin line below which
shows where the troll's post originated? "nntp:..."

nntp prococol used for reading and writing ftn messages is not usenet.

why is this area being gated to Usenet?

Is it?

Yes. See above (and below).

* Origin: - nntp://rbb.fidonet.fi - Lake Ylo - Finland - (2:221/360)

That is not usenet, that is a pure fidonet system.

'Tommi

---
* Origin: IPv6 Point at [2001:470:1f15:cb0:2:221:1:1] (2:221/1.1)

Hi Paul.

10 Oct 19 02:29:42, you wrote to me:

Mmm... nntp == not normally to people ????

What about nntps ?-)

> LL> * Origin: - nntp://rbb.fidonet.fi - Lake Ylo - Finland -

Are the lakes sorted alphabetically there? ;)

You can sort them as you like. :)

'Tommi

... \\ZPO has been up for: 264 day(s), 18 hour(s), 41 minute(s), 22 second(s) ---
* Origin: IPv6 Point at [2001:470:1f15:cb0:2:221:1:1] (2:221/1.1)

Hi! Tommi,

On 11 Oct 19 08:07, you wrote to me:

Mmm... nntp == not normally to people ????

What about nntps ?-)

We don't get that brand of coffee here. ;)

> LL> * Origin: - nntp://rbb.fidonet.fi - Lake Ylo - Finland -

Are the lakes sorted alphabetically there? ;)

You can sort them as you like. :)

ACK. :)

Cheers,
Paul.

... When the going gets tough - upgrade!
--- GoldED+/LNX 1.1.5-b20130515
* Origin: Quinn's Rock - Live from Paul's Xubuntu desktop! (3:640/1384)

Hello David,

Thursday October 10 2019 19:56, Nick Andre wrote to you:

Then notice that at the precise moment when I explained it, the troll
shit his pants in Fidonews and began whining about American
free-speech USA-number-one nonsense. Notice how absolutely no-one came
to his defense.

If I'm so wrong, everyone would cry murder... remember I have everyone looking to pounce on anything I write as long as I occupy 1:1/0.
Wilfred, Michiel, Bjorn, maybe Janis and lowercase Mark Lewis.

Just for your information: the reason that I did not respond to the above quote is not related to any desire or lack thereof to come to Lee's defence.

I have chosen to no longer respond to Nick's messages because he refuses to include a REPLY kludge. I find this annoying because I rule it to conflict with FTS-0009 and it makes it more difficult for me to go back in the thread. Therefore my standard response to Nick's messages - as with all other messages that annoy me - is to hit the "next" key.


Cheers, Michiel

--- GoldED+/W32-MSVC 1.1.5-b20170303
* Origin: http://www.vlist.org (2:280/5555)

Hi Nick,

On 2019-10-10 19:56:30, you wrote to David Drummond:

If I'm so wrong, everyone would cry murder... remember I have everyone looking to pounce on anything I write as long as I occupy 1:1/0.
Wilfred, Michiel, Bjorn, maybe Janis and lowercase Mark Lewis.

There is a medical term for the "everybody is out to get me" state of mind: "Paranoid personality disorder (PPD)"
Maybe you should seek professional help?

Crickets chirping from ALL of them.

So what you are saying is that if someone doesn't comment on something he must automatically agree with it? If that is the case you must really love Lee's idea's, because you hardly ever comment on his posts...

Bye, Wilfred.

--- FMail-lnx64 2.1.0.18-B20170815
* Origin: FMail development HQ (2:280/464)

Tommi Koivula wrote to Dan Clough <=-

Why is this asswipe troll being allowed to pollute this SYSOP-ONLY
echo area?

It's obvious that he's doing it via Usenet...

Obvious? Please explain.

Well, it seems obvious to me. See the origin line below which
shows where the troll's post originated? "nntp:..."

nntp prococol used for reading and writing ftn messages is not
usenet.

Yes, I (now) realize that. Sorry for that assumption.

why is this area being gated to Usenet?

Is it?

Yes. See above (and below).

* Origin: - nntp://rbb.fidonet.fi - Lake Ylo - Finland - (2:221/360)

That is not usenet, that is a pure fidonet system.

Yes, thank you for helping me pull my head out of my ass.

My original point still remains, though - the LL troll should not
have access to this echo area regardless of protocol used...



... If it walks out of your refrigerator, let it go.
=== MultiMail/Linux v0.52
--- SBBSecho 3.10-Linux
* Origin: Palantir * palantirbbs.ddns.net * Pensacola, FL * (1:123/115)

David Drummond wrote to Nick Andre <=-

Your complaints about trolls remind me of the asinine bullshit about "cyber bullying" in social media. Surely the party being bullied can
just "un-friend" the bully and the problem would cease to exist. If someone is bullying you, are they your friend?

Were you a bully in school, or were you bullied? Multiply the effect either way by an order of magnitude and you have the current situation.

Did unfriending a school bully in real life work for you?
... "Time for some thrilling heroics."
--- MultiMail/XT v0.52
* Origin: http://realitycheckbbs.org | tomorrow's retro tech (1:218/700)

On 11 Oct 19 12:26:35, Wilfred Van Velzen said the following to Nick Andre:

Crickets chirping from ALL of them.

So what you are saying is that if someone doesn't comment on something he automatically agree with it? If that is the case you must really love

Lee's

idea's, because you hardly ever comment on his posts...

My reply to Ward about how to handle a troll was ignored by ALL of you that love to take me to task over trivial nonsense. Ample time has passed since then... weeks now I think. The troll knows I'm right and is in meltdown-mode.

The topic has ended. I proved my point.

Nick

--- Renegade vY2Ka2
* Origin: Joey, do you like movies about gladiators? (1:229/426)

Hi Nick,

On 2019-10-11 10:34:47, you wrote to me:

So what you are saying is that if someone doesn't comment on
something he m automatically agree with it? If that is the case you
must really love Lee's idea's, because you hardly ever comment on his
posts...

My reply to Ward about how to handle a troll was ignored by ALL of you

There you go again, drawing conclusions, from non repsonses.

that love to take me to task over trivial nonsense.

Yes, we all have nothing better to do than making your live miserable... Paranoia again...

Ample time has passed since then... weeks now I think.

So?

The troll knows I'm right and is in meltdown-mode.

Yes, Lee seems really afraid of you...

The topic has ended. I proved my point.

You are ignored by everyone is what you proved...

Bye, Wilfred.

--- FMail-lnx64 2.1.0.18-B20170815
* Origin: FMail development HQ (2:280/464)

On 11 Oct 19 19:11:49, Wilfred Van Velzen said the following to Nick Andre:

that love to take me to task over trivial nonsense.

Yes, we all have nothing better to do than making your live miserable...

Agreed - On a few occasions you have tried to weasle your way into Zone 1-specific echo areas and have made snide remarks about the nodelist. Not
that I really care; its just your usual douchbag ways.

You are more than welcome to disconnect your feed from my system if the free services I provide are not up to your satisfaction.

Nick

--- Renegade vY2Ka2
* Origin: Joey, do you like movies about gladiators? (1:229/426)

On 11/10/2019 10:34, Nick Andre -> Wilfred Van Velzen wrote:

The topic has ended. I proved my point.

You've stopped the troll?

--

Regards
David

--- Mozilla/5.0 (Windows NT 6.1; rv:31.0) Gecko/20100101 Thunderbird/31.8.0
* Origin: Straylia Mate (3:640/305)

On 11/10/2019 23:13, Dan Clough -> Tommi Koivula wrote:

Yes, thank you for helping me pull my head out of my ass.

My original point still remains, though - the LL troll should not
have access to this echo area regardless of protocol used...

That is YOUR opinion, others' may vary.

--

Regards
David

--- Mozilla/5.0 (Windows NT 6.1; rv:31.0) Gecko/20100101 Thunderbird/31.8.0
* Origin: Straylia Mate (3:640/305)

On 11/10/2019 23:43, Kurt Weiske -> David Drummond wrote:

Your complaints about trolls remind me of the asinine bullshit about
"cyber bullying" in social media. Surely the party being bullied can
just "un-friend" the bully and the problem would cease to exist. If
someone is bullying you, are they your friend?

Were you a bully in school, or were you bullied? Multiply the effect

either

way by an order of magnitude and you have the current situation.

Did unfriending a school bully in real life work for you?

The real world equivalent, avoiding the bully, did.

That is what I am suggesting with the alleged "cyber bully".

--

Regards
David

--- Mozilla/5.0 (Windows NT 6.1; rv:31.0) Gecko/20100101 Thunderbird/31.8.0
* Origin: Straylia Mate (3:640/305)

On 12 Oct 19 08:32:18, David Drummond said the following to Nick Andre:

On 11/10/2019 10:34, Nick Andre -> Wilfred Van Velzen wrote:

The topic has ended. I proved my point.

You've stopped the troll?

Small changes are already underway.

Nick

--- Renegade vY2Ka2
* Origin: Joey, do you like movies about gladiators? (1:229/426)

David Drummond wrote to Kurt Weiske <=-

The real world equivalent, avoiding the bully, did.

That is what I am suggesting with the alleged "cyber bully".

Sure. Just "get away from the internet" and you'll be OK.

Saying that things have changed since you were a kid would be an understatement.



... Have you ever questioned the nature of your reality?
--- MultiMail/XT v0.52
* Origin: http://realitycheckbbs.org | tomorrow's retro tech (1:218/700)

On 13/10/2019 01:19, Kurt Weiske -> David Drummond wrote:

The real world equivalent, avoiding the bully, did.

That is what I am suggesting with the alleged "cyber bully".

Sure. Just "get away from the internet" and you'll be OK.

Saying that things have changed since you were a kid would be an understatement.

Do you feel obliged to read every message from every poster in an echo - even when you know that you may well be annoyed at messages from certain posters?

--

Regards
David

--- Mozilla/5.0 (Windows NT 6.1; rv:31.0) Gecko/20100101 Thunderbird/31.8.0
* Origin: Straylia Mate (3:640/305)