Hello, All.

when I left fido some time ago, sysop's conferences were limited only to sysops, for a lot of reason that you can easily imagine.

Now I see that a well known troll reads all our messages in the sysop's echoes, well I have nothing to hide, but if a conference is reserved to sysops why give read access to normal users?

Why the "new fidonet" that I joined again is so similar to the Anarchic Internet? :)

Please dont't feed the trolls. ;)

--
Ciao! :)
Fabio.
--- Hotdoged/2.13.5/Android
* Origin: ]\/[imac boss android point (2:335/364.3)

On 15 Sep 2019, Fabio Bizzi said the following...

Hello, All.

when I left fido some time ago, sysop's conferences were limited only to sysops, for a lot of reason that you can easily imagine.

Now I see that a well known troll reads all our messages in the sysop's echoes, well I have nothing to hide, but if a conference is reserved to sysops why give read access to normal users?

Why the "new fidonet" that I joined again is so similar to the Anarchic Internet? :)

For myself I thank you for this message as I am guilty of too many echo's of sysop only nature being available to just anyone. Might not be a biggie to some I know, but your message just made me go through and flag all echo's
that are not relevant to the average user for sysop level only now on my bbs.

I had thought about doing such an audit on echo's for a while but kept
putting it off so thank you for getting me off the fence! ;)

--- Mystic BBS v1.12 A43 2019/03/03 (Windows/32)
* Origin: 8-Bit Boyz BBS! -=[ bbs.8bitboyz.com port:6502 ]=- (1:305/3)

Hello Fabio,

when I left fido some time ago, sysop's conferences were limited only to sysops, for a lot of reason that you can easily imagine.

Yes, that is what the rules of this area indicate.

Now I see that a well known troll reads all our messages in the sysop's echoes
well I have nothing to hide, but if a conference is reserved to sysops why giv
read access to normal users?

It's upto the operators of the individual BBS or server who they give access to. Most will abide by the rules of the echo but not all.

Freedom of speech and all that.

Why the "new fidonet" that I joined again is so similar to the Anarchic Internet? :)

Fidonet is now, and always has been anarchy. There was a time when operators would abide by the rules but that is not always the case.

In the case of my own system, only I can read and post in this area. There was a time when a moderator could cut the feed of a node that didn't follow the rules but those days are over thanks to the fidoweb.

Please dont't feed the trolls. ;)

Indeed.

--
Ciao! :)
Fabio.

--- BBBS/Li6 v4.10 Toy-4
* Origin: The Rusty MailBox - Penticton, BC Canada (1:153/757)

I had thought about doing such an audit on echo's for a while but kept putting it off so thank you for getting me off the fence! ;)

I for one appreciate you taking those steps.

I know that the sysop areas are available for anyone to read at various places simply by error and and I have made the same error.

--- BBBS/Li6 v4.10 Toy-4
* Origin: The Rusty MailBox - Penticton, BC Canada (1:153/757)

Hello, Shane O'Neill.
On 15/09/19 13:16 you wrote:

I had thought about doing such an audit on echo's for a while but
kept putting it off so thank you for getting me off the fence! ;)

Time is always less than you need. :)

I have to write down a python script to replace the mail tracker on my node (thanks to the husky developers that wrote lot of examples) and I've only written the ping answer. :)

But eventually this is an hobby, so why to be in hurry? ;)

--
Ciao! :)
Fabio.
--- Hotdoged/2.13.5/Android
* Origin: ]\/[imac boss android point (2:335/364.3)

Alan,

I know that the sysop areas are available for anyone to read at various places simply by error and and I have made the same error.

I don't even mind that, there's a point perhaps where we should be welcoming extra-participation and fresh blood.

However, what was written by a particular troll in the FIDONEWS-echo about the death of sysop Roger Nelson, a man whom I would call the "Gentleman Sysop", got me totally upset.

It's time to deal with the trolls ...

\%/@rd

--- D'Bridge 3.99
* Origin: Do not meddle in the affairs of wizards (2:292/854)

I know that the sysop areas are available for anyone to read at various
places simply by error and and I have made the same error.

I don't even mind that, there's a point perhaps where we should be welcoming extra-participation and fresh blood.

I don't either, and I understand the reasons why it happens but I still advocate that these sysop areas be restricted for us to communicate between ourselves.

We do provide any number of areas for anyone to communicate about whetever it is that's on their mind.

However, what was written by a particular troll in the FIDONEWS-echo about the
death of sysop Roger Nelson, a man whom I would call the "Gentleman Sysop", go
me totally upset.

I found it distasteful, to say the least.

It's time to deal with the trolls ...

I'm not sure we can do any more with trolls today than we could in the past, unfortunately.

--- BBBS/Li6 v4.10 Toy-4
* Origin: The Rusty MailBox - Penticton, BC Canada (1:153/757)

I for one appreciate you taking those steps.

I know that the sysop areas are available for anyone to read at various places simply by error and and I have made the same error.

Not a problem and agree somethings are not for all eyes. The trolls feed off any and all info to use elsewhere.

--- Mystic BBS v1.12 A43 2019/03/03 (Windows/32)
* Origin: 8-Bit Boyz BBS! -=[ bbs.8bitboyz.com port:6502 ]=- (1:305/3)

On 15 Sep 2019, Fabio Bizzi said the following...

But eventually this is an hobby, so why to be in hurry? ;)

A hobby at times that feels like an under paid job! LOL ;-)

--- Mystic BBS v1.12 A43 2019/03/03 (Windows/32)
* Origin: 8-Bit Boyz BBS! -=[ bbs.8bitboyz.com port:6502 ]=- (1:305/3)

On 15 Sep 2019, Alan Ianson said the following...

It's time to deal with the trolls ...

I'm not sure we can do any more with trolls today than we could in the past, unfortunately.

This wont help but you all sparked a memory...The year was about 1989 the
local multi-line BBS (Electronic Pathways I think it was called) was ran by an ego driven man who's kids were not much better. His kids would mess with me and my buddies on the chats by dropping our calls or banning us when we would not even interact with them. They thought it was funny till a group of mis matched high schoolers showed up at their house about 11pm one Saturday night in a very loud Monte Carlo with bats and such! Oh man was their dad mad at
them and us but they got corrected by ego dad and well we all dropped off
bbs' then as senior year was over and had to grow up a bit. (still waiting
for that to happen!).

--- Mystic BBS v1.12 A43 2019/03/03 (Windows/32)
* Origin: 8-Bit Boyz BBS! -=[ bbs.8bitboyz.com port:6502 ]=- (1:305/3)

On 15 Sep 19 17:59:11, Shane O'Neill said the following to Alan Ianson:

This wont help but you all sparked a memory...The year was about 1989 the local multi-line BBS (Electronic Pathways I think it was called) was ran

by

ego driven man who's kids were not much better. His kids would mess with and my buddies on the chats by dropping our calls or banning us when we

wou

not even interact with them. They thought it was funny till a group of mis

I've met ego Sysops like that over the years. They're usually the ones that bragged about their precious system and how "they are gonna be around for a long time, baby". They were almost always the first to go tits-up when all the users bought themselves an Internet surfboard.

Nick

--- Renegade vY2Ka2
* Origin: Joey, do you like movies about gladiators? (1:229/426)

Hi All,

It is not really clear which conferences should have what settings for users should be used, 16 years ago I found it clear, now not so much since mail is being gated to Usenet etc.

I guess some sysops don't really care and some others do it their way not the group way and justify it in their own minds.

The real question is whether it is really worth getting upset over when the alternative may be even worse.

It's a hobby, lets enjoy it while we can and respect each other.

Thanks.


On Sep 15, 2019 08:44pm, Fabio Bizzi wrote to All:

Now I see that a well known troll reads all our messages in the sysop's echoes, well I have nothing to hide, but if a conference is reserved to sysops why give read access to normal users?

Terry Roati - 3:640/1321 tfb-bbs.org

... Platinum Xpress & Wildcat!..... Nice!!!!
--- Platinum Xpress/Win/WINServer v7.0
* Origin: The File Bank BBS! (3:640/1321)

I've met ego Sysops like that over the years. They're usually the ones that bragged about their precious system and how "they are gonna be
around for a long time, baby". They were almost always the first to go tits-up when all the users bought themselves an Internet surfboard.

Yup, we were just young dumb kids that thought we would scare the ego out of them. We did just by showing up, that was all it took for them to know people could find their location. We realized later by that alone they checked their ego know they were not able to hide behind a keyboard acting a bully.

--- Mystic BBS v1.12 A43 2019/03/03 (Windows/32)
* Origin: 8-Bit Boyz BBS! -=[ bbs.8bitboyz.com port:6502 ]=- (1:305/3)

On 16 Sep 2019, Terry Roati said the following...

It's a hobby, lets enjoy it while we can and respect each other.

Well said and on the money!

--- Mystic BBS v1.12 A43 2019/03/03 (Windows/32)
* Origin: 8-Bit Boyz BBS! -=[ bbs.8bitboyz.com port:6502 ]=- (1:305/3)

On 2019 Sep 15 13:16:02, you wrote to Fabio Bizzi:

Now I see that a well known troll reads all our messages in the
sysop's echoes, well I have nothing to hide, but if a conference is
reserved to sysops why give read access to normal users?

Why the "new fidonet" that I joined again is so similar to the
Anarchic Internet? :)

For myself I thank you for this message as I am guilty of too many echo's of sysop only nature being available to just anyone. Might not be a

biggie

to some I know, but your message just made me go through and flag all echo's that are not relevant to the average user for sysop level only now on my bbs.

this has happened because systems have allowed operators to import the backbone.na file into their message area definitions to create the areas for them... the backbone.na file does not carry the necessary information to determine if an echo is wide open for all or if it has restricted access...

I had thought about doing such an audit on echo's for a while but kept putting it off so thank you for getting me off the fence! ;)

thank you for doing that... you should also be aware that some echos are zone-restricted as well... others may be region-restricted even though they are listed as being on a/the backbone...

generally speaking, the echo's rules postings would state what the access should be for the echo... back in the day, operators would turn on areas and restrict them to the operator's access until they saw the rules for access or were told what the access should be... then the operator would adjust the areas' access level accordingly... generally, echo rules were posted monthly on a set schedule... this is not necessarily so any more and some areas don't post any rules at all...

with the advent of the fidoweb, moderators' control over their echos has effectively been removed... now all a moderator can do is chase the violator from BBS to BBS and try to get the operators of those systems to restrict the violator from the echo(s) in question... in some cases, setting the violator's access to read-only in those areas is sufficient to prevent their posts from appearing in the echo... in other cases, completely denying access to the area is needed... it all depends on the situation, the echo's rules, and the moderator's desires...

i'm aware of the following 8 access "levels":

wide-open
sysop-only
zone-restricted
zone-restricted sysop-only
region-restricted
region-restricted sysop-only
net-restricted
net-restricted sysop-only

these apply not only to the message areas on a bbs but also to tosser settings so that linked systems can pull only what they qualify for...

one should also note that knowing where visiting sysops are from and what their FTN address is (if they have one) is an important part of knowing if they may qualify for an access flag to certain sysop-only areas... they may be a visiting sysop so they may have access to general sysop-only areas... if they have an FTN address, then they may also qualify for access to other more restricted sysop-only areas...

mail tossers generally use groups to allow/restrict links access to areas... some tossers have a limited number of groups... up to 36 if the tosser uses only letters and numbers for the "group ID"... other tossers allow for multiple characters to be used for the "group ID"...

also in the tosser, there is the addition of network-restricted access... for example, my system is not a member of fsxnet so i should not be able to areafix any fsxnet areas from any of my links... i've personally seen some systems that allow links to access all echos in all networks they carry and this is not a good thing at all...

)\/(ark

Once men turned their thinking over to machines in the hope that this would set them free. But that only permitted other men with machines to enslave them.
... Jump up and down on keyboard to continue...
---
* Origin: (1:3634/12.73)

On 2019 Sep 15 22:39:48, you wrote to Alan Ianson:

It's past time to deal with the trolls ...

FTFY...

personal opinion: it should have been handled a long time ago when it first started... some folks have/had been waving that red flag for a long time... many of them gave up and are now watching to see what will finally be done, if anything at all...

yes, said troll pissed me off with his stupid shit, too...

)\/(ark

Once men turned their thinking over to machines in the hope that this would set them free. But that only permitted other men with machines to enslave them.
... People are what they do, not what they say.
---
* Origin: (1:3634/12.73)

It is not really clear which conferences should have what settings for users should be used, 16 years ago I found it clear, now not so much since mail is being gated to Usenet etc.

The only (backbone) areas I carry that are sysop only are this area FN_SYSOP, and FIDO_SYSOP.

I guess some sysops don't really care and some others do it their way not

the

group way and justify it in their own minds.

Yes.

The real question is whether it is really worth getting upset over when the alternative may be even worse.

No, it not upsetting at all. I like having the sysop areas to discuss things with other sysops that likely isn't important for a user.

It's a hobby, lets enjoy it while we can and respect each other.

Exactly! :)

--- BBBS/Li6 v4.10 Toy-4
* Origin: The Rusty MailBox - Penticton, BC Canada (1:153/757)

this has happened because systems have allowed operators to import the backbone.na file into their message area definitions to create the areas for them... the backbone.na file does not carry the necessary information to determine if an echo is wide open for all or if it has restricted access...

I wonder if it would be better to remove these areas from the backbone.na?

I don't mean remove the areas from backbone distribution, just remove the area from the file that folks import *.*.

--- BBBS/Li6 v4.10 Toy-4
* Origin: The Rusty MailBox - Penticton, BC Canada (1:153/757)

On 2019 Sep 16 12:03:32, you wrote to me:

this has happened because systems have allowed operators to import the
backbone.na file into their message area definitions to create the
areas for them... the backbone.na file does not carry the necessary
information to determine if an echo is wide open for all or if it has
restricted access...

I wonder if it would be better to remove these areas from the

backbone.na?

once it was finally figured out how restricted areas were being leaked, i considered suggesting this to the other backbone operators and list maintainer... i never got around to doing that, though...

I don't mean remove the areas from backbone distribution, just remove
the area from the file that folks import *.*.

eventually, i did exactly that and came up with four .NA files... probably should be five of them, though... the maintenance of these files was easy with my fastecho installation since i grouped the areas accordingly... i just had fastecho export each group as a NA file and made them available in my files areas... i was also able to do the same for my regional and net message areas for the same restricted access reasoning...

backbone.na network-wide general access areas
carried on the backbone.

backbone.not network-wide general access
low-traffic areas carried on the
backbone that may be removed from
backbone distribution or returned
to full distribution status if
traffic levels pick up.

fidosys.na network-wide sysop-only restricted
access areas carried on the
backbone.

z1only.na zone1-only restricted access areas
carried on the backbone.

the one that could be said to be missing might be named z1sysonl.na and contain z1-only sysop-only restricted areas... for now, those areas are included in the z1only.na file...

NOTE: these files are not currently available from my system even though i still (manually) maintain and update them from the distributed backbone.na and backbone.not files...

)\/(ark

Once men turned their thinking over to machines in the hope that this would set them free. But that only permitted other men with machines to enslave them.
... Cereal Interface: Bowl, Milk, Sugar, Spoon.
---
* Origin: (1:3634/12.73)

eventually, i did exactly that and came up with four .NA files... probably
should be five of them, though... the maintenance of these files was easy with
my fastecho installation since i grouped the areas accordingly... i just had fastecho export each group as a NA file and made them available in my files areas... i was also able to do the same for my regional and net message

areas

for the same restricted access reasoning...

backbone.na network-wide general access areas
carried on the backbone.

backbone.not network-wide general access
low-traffic areas carried on the
backbone that may be removed from
backbone distribution or returned
to full distribution status if
traffic levels pick up.

fidosys.na network-wide sysop-only restricted
access areas carried on the
backbone.

z1only.na zone1-only restricted access areas
carried on the backbone.

That's actually a good idea. If you brought that up with your NAB counterparts they might think so to.. :)

--- BBBS/Li6 v4.10 Toy-4
* Origin: The Rusty MailBox - Penticton, BC Canada (1:153/757)