Hello Michiel!

** On Sunday 07.06.20 - 21:52, Michiel van der Vlist wrote to August Abolins:

MvdV> Hello August,

MvdV> On Sunday June 07 2020 14:40, you wrote to me:

@CHRS: IBMPC 2

MvdV> BTW pse note that the use of "IBMPC" is not recommended as it has
MvdV> evolved from the original meaning of "the character set of the original
MvdV> IBM PC" to "any codepage supported by the IBM PC clone's hardware."

BTW.. I just did some digging, and the message from which you quoted the above @CHRS appears to be MSGID e533a982

From that, my original copy that was packed and sent out from my system
bore the following in OXP-speak:

EMP: /FIDO/FIDOTEST
ABS: August Abolins@2:221/1.58
BET: Test From Blue Wave Door
EDA: 20200607184000S-4
MID: 2:221/1.58@fidonet e533a982
BEZ: 2:221/1.58@fidonet e533a612
BEZ: 2:280/5555 5edd28c5
ROT:
MAILER: OpenXP/5.0.44 (Win32)
ORG: /|ug's Point
X_C:
X-XP-NTP: 30
X-XP-Charset: IBM437
F-TO: Michiel van der Vlist
LEN: 2589

My original message had IBM437.

But, it arrived bearing an IBMPC kludge on the local NNTP side. :(

So, it appears that it left the bossnode with the IBMPC kludge as well. :(

Thoughts, Tommi?


../|ug

--- OpenXP 5.0.44
* Origin: This is a test of the Emergency Tagline System (2:221/1.58)

Hello August,

On Monday June 08 2020 15:40, you wrote to me:

X-XP-NTP: 30
X-XP-Charset: IBM437
F-TO: Michiel van der Vlist
LEN: 2589

My original message had IBM437.

Hmmm... that is an unknown identifier in Fidonet.

But, it arrived bearing an IBMPC kludge on the local NNTP side. :(

So, it appears that it left the bossnode with the IBMPC kludge as
well. :(

So it would seem that entering messages via an NNTP gateway is buggy...


Cheers, Michiel

--- GoldED+/W32-MSVC 1.1.5-b20170303
* Origin: http://www.vlist.eu (2:280/5555)

Hi! Michiel,

On 06/09/2020 04:21 PM, you wrote to August Abolins:

But, it arrived bearing an IBMPC kludge on the local NNTP side. :(

So, it appears that it left the bossnode with the IBMPC kludge as
well. :(

MvdV> So it would seem that entering messages via an NNTP gateway is buggy...

Not all. Just the one in question, for the present.

For August... which one please, mate?

Cheers,
Paul.

--- Mozilla/5.0 (X11; Linux i686; rv:31.0) Gecko/20100101 Thunderbird/31.4.0
* Origin: In CyberSpace no one can hear you whistle. (3:640/1384.125)

Hello Paul,

On Tuesday June 09 2020 17:11, you wrote to me:

@MSGID: 3:640/1384.125 5edf3618
@REPLY: 2:280/5555 5edf2b10
@PID: JamNNTPd/Linux 1
@CHRS: UTF-8 2

^

MvdV>> So it would seem that entering messages via an NNTP gateway is
MvdV>> buggy...

Not all. Just the one in question, for the present.

JamNNTP has bugs as well in delaing with UTF-8. See above. Also, AFAIK, it assumes that the header is always Latin-1.


Cheers, Michiel

--- GoldED+/W32-MSVC 1.1.5-b20170303
* Origin: http://www.vlist.eu (2:280/5555)

Hi! Michiel,

On 09 Jun 20 10:13, you wrote to me:

@CHRS: UTF-8 2

^

MvdV>>> So it would seem that entering messages via an NNTP gateway is
MvdV>>> buggy...

Not all. Just the one in question, for the present.

JamNNTP has bugs as well in delaing with UTF-8. See above. Also,
AFAIK, it assumes that the header is always Latin-1.

Yes. Perfection is difficult with Fidonet; it's an amateur undertaking.

That JamNNTPd is in a UTF-8 Linux environment and has been told not to make any translations. That Thunderbird is in the /same/ environment.

Cheers,
Paul.

... "Always bet on black", John Cutter (1992).
--- GoldED+/LNX 1.1.5-b20130515
* Origin: Quinn's Rock - Live from Paul's Xubuntu desktop! (3:640/1384)

On 9.6.2020 11.13, Michiel van der Vlist : Paul Quinn wrote:

Hello Paul,

On Tuesday June 09 2020 17:11, you wrote to me:

@MSGID: 3:640/1384.125 5edf3618
@REPLY: 2:280/5555 5edf2b10
@PID: JamNNTPd/Linux 1
@CHRS: UTF-8 2

^

And now?

'Tommi

--- Mozilla/5.0 (Windows NT 10.0; WOW64; rv:68.0) Gecko/20100101 Thunderbird/68.8.1
* Origin: nntp://rbb.fidonet.fi - Lake Ylo - Finland (2:221/1.0)

Hello Paul,

On Tuesday June 09 2020 20:13, you wrote to me:

@CHRS: UTF-8 2

^

JamNNTP has bugs as well in delaing with UTF-8. See above. Also,
AFAIK, it assumes that the header is always Latin-1.

Yes. Perfection is difficult with Fidonet; it's an amateur
undertaking.

The "UTF-8 2" instead of "UTF8-8 4" isn't really a problem I think. AFAIK all readers/editor that can do UTF-8 seem to ignore the level field. I have not heard of a counter example yet.

This is what FTS-5003 has to say on the matter:

Some implementations do not add the <level> field and some
implementations erroneously present "UTF-8 2" instead of "UTF-8 4".
Well mannered implementations should gracefully handle this situation
when reading messages. The recommended way of doing this is to
ignore the level parameter and only use the name of the identifier.
In future the level parameter may become obsolete.

That JamNNTPd is in a UTF-8 Linux environment and has been told not to make any translations. That Thunderbird is in the /same/ environment.

That it insists the header is always Latin-1 independant of the encoding of the text body is what I consider am more sreious problem.


Cheers, Michiel

--- GoldED+/W32-MSVC 1.1.5-b20170303
* Origin: http://www.vlist.eu (2:280/5555)

Hello Tommi,

On Tuesday June 09 2020 13:41, you wrote to me:

@PID: JamNNTPd/Linux 1
@CHRS: UTF-8 2

^

And now?

For you: nothing. I see you already fixed it in the OS.2 version. :)


Cheers, Michiel

--- GoldED+/W32-MSVC 1.1.5-b20170303
* Origin: http://www.vlist.eu (2:280/5555)

Hi! Michiel,

On 09 Jun 20 13:12, you wrote to me:

The "UTF-8 2" instead of "UTF8-8 4" isn't really a problem I think.
AFAIK all readers/editor that can do UTF-8 seem to ignore the level
field. I have not heard of a counter example yet.

Yes, I knew this. Thank you.

That JamNNTPd is in a UTF-8 Linux environment

That it insists the header is always Latin-1 independant of the
encoding of the text body is what I consider am more sreious problem.

As I understand it, it's trying to deal with stuff not in the 'text' body. Is that close? :)

Cheers,
Paul.

... Today is merely the tomorrow you worried about yesterday.
--- GoldED+/LNX 1.1.5-b20130515
* Origin: Quinn's Rock - Live from Paul's Xubuntu desktop! (3:640/1384)

Re: IBM437 to IBMPC
By: Tommi Koivula to Michiel van der Vlist on Tue Jun 09 2020 13:41:58

@CHRS: UTF-8 2

And now?

Sender Tommi Koivula
To Michiel van der Vlist
Subject IBM437 to IBMPC
X-FTN-AREA FIDOTEST
X-FTN-MSGID 2:221/1.0 5edf676e
X-FTN-REPLY 2:280/5555 5edf44a6
X-FTN-PID JamNNTPd/OS2 1.3 20200606
X-FTN-CHRS UTF-8 4
X-FTN-TID FastEcho 1.46.1 1530
X-FTN-SEEN-BY 103/705 129/215 154/10 30 40 50 700 203/0 221/1 6 360 227/201 229/101
X-FTN-SEEN-BY 229/310 240/1120 5832 280/464 5003 5555 288/100 292/8125 310/31
X-FTN-SEEN-BY 396/45 423/81 120 712/848 770/1 2452/250 3634/12
X-FTN-PATH 221/1 280/464 154/10


)\/(ark
--- SBBSecho 3.11-Linux
* Origin: SouthEast Star Mail HUB - SESTAR (1:3634/12)

Hello Paul,

On Tuesday June 09 2020 21:46, you wrote to me:

As I understand it, it's trying to deal with stuff not in the 'text'
body. Is that close? :)

OK.


Cheers, Michiel

--- GoldED+/W32-MINGW 1.1.5-b20110320
* Origin: http://www.vlist.eu (2:280/5555)

Hello Michiel!

** On Tuesday 09.06.20 - 08:21, Michiel van der Vlist wrote to August Abolins:

X-XP-Charset: IBM437
My original message had IBM437.

MvdV> Hmmm... that is an unknown identifier in Fidonet.

Hmmm.. Then FTSC should update their documentation of common terms and practices out in the real world. LOL

https://www.compart.com/en/unicode/charsets/IBM437
https://www.iana.org/assignments/character-sets/character-sets.xhtml

OpenXP shouldn't be forced to downgrade to an antiquated text found in FTS-5009.

But, it arrived bearing an IBMPC kludge on the local NNTP side. :(

So, it appears that it left the bossnode with the IBMPC kludge as
well. :(

MvdV> So it would seem that entering messages via an NNTP gateway is buggy...

Yes.. something a little strange is happening there! LOL


../|ug

--- OpenXP 5.0.44
* Origin: This is a test of the Emergency Tagline System (2:221/1.58)

Hello August,

On Tuesday June 09 2020 09:41, you wrote to me:

My original message had IBM437.

MvdV>> Hmmm... that is an unknown identifier in Fidonet.

Hmmm.. Then FTSC should update their documentation of common terms
and practices out in the real world. LOL

Documenting commeon terms and pratices in the real world is not the job of the FTSC. The FTSC is limited to Fidonet.

https://www.compart.com/en/unicode/charsets/IBM437
https://www.iana.org/assignments/character-sets/character-sets.xhtml

That's not Fidonet.

But, it arrived bearing an IBMPC kludge on the local NNTP side.
:(

So, it appears that it left the bossnode with the IBMPC kludge
as well. :(

MvdV>> So it would seem that entering messages via an NNTP gateway is
MvdV>> buggy...

Yes.. something a little strange is happening there! LOL

That the proces is buggy is well known and has been known for decades.

Why not use real Fidonet software for you messages in Fidonet instead of sofware mainly designed for e-mail and usenet?


Cheers, Michiel

--- GoldED+/W32-MSVC 1.1.5-b20170303
* Origin: http://www.vlist.eu (2:280/5555)

Hi August.

08 Jun 20 15:40:00, you wrote to Michiel van der Vlist:

EMP: /FIDO/FIDOTEST
ABS: August Abolins@2:221/1.58
BET: Test From Blue Wave Door
EDA: 20200607184000S-4
MID: 2:221/1.58@fidonet e533a982
BEZ: 2:221/1.58@fidonet e533a612
BEZ: 2:280/5555 5edd28c5
ROT:
MAILER: OpenXP/5.0.44 (Win32)
ORG: /|ug's Point
X_C:
X-XP-NTP: 30
X-XP-Charset: IBM437
F-TO: Michiel van der Vlist
LEN: 2589

My original message had IBM437.

No.

I searched your CHRS kludges, and there is not IBM437 at all.

But, it arrived bearing an IBMPC kludge on the local NNTP side. :(

So, it appears that it left the bossnode with the IBMPC kludge as well.

:(

That's exactly the CHRS kludge in your message with MSGID "e533a982".

Thoughts, Tommi?

Stop using OpenXP if you want to study kludges.

'Tommi

---
* Origin: Point One, Somewhere (2:221/1.1)

On 09/06/2020 10:31 a.m., Tommi Koivula : August Abolins wrote:

That's exactly the CHRS kludge in your message with MSGID "e533a982".

I'll try to dissect a pkt that is queued up for delivery.

It is odd that it would change from the msgbase to pkt.

Stop using OpenXP if you want to study kludges.

It's easier to stop triggering ibm437. LOL

--- TB(Stealth)/Win7
* Origin: nntp://rbb.fidonet.fi - Lake Ylo - Finland (2:221/360.0)

Hi Tommi!

09 Jun 2020 13:41, from Tommi Koivula -> Michiel van der Vlist:

@MSGID: 2:221/1.0 5edf676e
@REPLY: 2:280/5555 5edf44a6
@PID: JamNNTPd/OS2 1.3 20200606
@CHRS: UTF-8 4
@TZUTC: 0300
@TID: FastEcho 1.46.1 1530
On 9.6.2020 11.13, Michiel van der Vlist : Paul Quinn wrote:

Hello Paul,

On Tuesday June 09 2020 17:11, you wrote to me:

@MSGID: 3:640/1384.125 5edf3618
@REPLY: 2:280/5555 5edf2b10
@PID: JamNNTPd/Linux 1
@CHRS: UTF-8 2

^

And now?

'Tommi

SEEN-BY: 103/705 154/10 203/0 221/1 6 360 229/101 240/1120 5832
280/464
SEEN-BY: 280/5003 5555 288/100 292/8125 310/31 396/45 423/81 120
712/848
SEEN-BY: 770/1 2452/250
@PATH: 221/1 280/464

CU, Ricsi

... The best audience is intelligent, well-educated and a little drunk.
--- GoldED+/LNX
* Origin: One crow will not peck out another crow's eye. (2:310/31)

Hello Michiel!

** On Tuesday 09.06.20 - 15:53, Michiel van der Vlist wrote to August Abolins:

https://www.compart.com/en/unicode/charsets/IBM437
https://www.iana.org/assignments/character-sets/character-sets.xhtml

MvdV> That's not Fidonet.

If CP437 is (which is an alias, btw), then IBM437 (the proper name) is.


MvdV> Why not use real Fidonet software for you messages in Fidonet
MvdV> instead of sofware mainly designed for e-mail and usenet?

Granted, I heard that oxp was adapted for ftn, but it works quite well
afaik. If you have a grievance, take it up with the developer with your officiality and tell him how broken oxp is.

--- OpenXP 5.0.44
* Origin: This is a test of the Emergency Tagline System (2:221/1.58)

Hello August,

On Tuesday June 09 2020 16:12, you wrote to me:

If CP437 is (which is an alias, btw), then IBM437 (the proper name)
is.

The identifier used in Fidonet to identify IBM codepage 437 is CP437. Period.

See FTS-5003.

MvdV>> Why not use real Fidonet software for you messages in Fidonet
MvdV>> instead of sofware mainly designed for e-mail and usenet?

Granted, I heard that oxp was adapted for ftn, but it works quite well afaik.

It seems it was written for e-mail and usenet mail and FTN was added as an afterthought. Not an approach I favour. For use in Fidonet I prefer software written for Fidonet and Fidonet only. At least it saves you from mixing up the jargon used in the different environments.

Once again Fidionet != Internet.

If you have a grievance, take it up with the developer with your officiality and tell him how broken oxp is.

You are the one using the program, you are the one responsible.

Cheers, Michiel

--- GoldED+/W32-MSVC 1.1.5-b20170303
* Origin: http://www.vlist.eu (2:280/5555)

Hello Paul!

** On Tuesday 09.06.20 - 17:11, Paul Quinn wrote to Michiel van der Vlist:

But, it arrived bearing an IBMPC kludge on the local NNTP side. :(

MvdV> So it would seem that entering messages via an NNTP gateway is
MvdV> buggy...

Not all. Just the one in question, for the present.

Correct. MvdV's assumptions are wrong. My assumptions were wrong too.

For August... which one please, mate?

The problem has been identified in the code. There is a deliberate change
of ibm437 to ibmpc before packing. There is no buggyness. The only buggyness is the rapid jumping to conclusions and the final solutions by select few people.

Sheesh.


../|ug

--- OpenXP 5.0.44
* Origin: This is a test of the Emergency Tagline System (2:221/1.58)

Hello Tommi!

** On Tuesday 09.06.20 - 17:31, Tommi Koivula wrote to August Abolins:

Stop using OpenXP if you want to study kludges.

ROTFL. (Oooops, now I need help to get up!)


../|ug

--- OpenXP 5.0.44
* Origin: This is a test of the Emergency Tagline System (2:221/1.58)

Hi! August,

On 11 Jun 20 20:26, you wrote to me:

For August... which one please, mate?

The problem has been identified in the code. There is a deliberate
change of ibm437 to ibmpc before packing. There is no buggyness.
The only buggyness is the rapid jumping to conclusions and the final solutions by select few people.

Sheesh.

:) Gracias.

Cheers,
Paul.

... Blood is thicker than water. Tastier and more nutritious too!
--- GoldED+/LNX 1.1.5-b20130515
* Origin: Quinn's Rock - Live from Paul's Xubuntu desktop! (3:640/1384)

On 11.06.2020 20:28, August Abolins wrote:

Hello Tommi!

** On Tuesday 09.06.20 - 17:31, Tommi Koivula wrote to August Abolins:

Stop using OpenXP if you want to study kludges.

ROTFL. (Oooops, now I need help to get up!)

You'd better stay down there looking for another IBM* kludges? B)

'Tommi

---
* Origin: rbb soupgate, the fidonet nntp junction (2:221/1.11)

* Originally posted in "FIDOTEST"
* Crossposted in "POINTS"

Hello Michiel!

*** Thursday 11.06.20 at 11:21, Michiel van der Vlist wrote to August Abolins:

[snip]
MvdV> MvdV>> Why not use real Fidonet software for you messages in Fidonet
MvdV> MvdV>> instead of sofware mainly designed for e-mail and usenet?

Granted, I heard that oxp was adapted for ftn, but it works quite well
afaik.

MvdV> It seems it was written for e-mail and usenet mail and FTN was added as
MvdV> an afterthought.

The current incarnation of OpenXP(5.0.xx) is based on the long since
defunct OpenXP 4.x.xxxx which, in turn, was based on CrossPoint 3.2

Following portion of text translated from this original document: https://de.wikipedia.org/wiki/CrossPoint

"CrossPoint v1.0 was released in 1992 as shareware for the DOS operating system. It was a pure point program for Z-Netz and its data exchange
protocol Netcall. Version 2.0 appeared at the end of 1992, which also supported FidoNet, MausNet, MagicNet, QuickMail and the data format of the new Z-Netz protocol ZConnect."

Hardly an afterthought, more of a development of the software, IMO.

Regards,
Martin

--- OpenXP 5.0.44
* Origin: Bitz-Box - Bradford - UK (2:310/31.3)

Hello Tommi!

*** Tuesday 09.06.20 at 17:31, Tommi Koivula wrote to August Abolins:

[snip]

Thoughts, Tommi?

Stop using OpenXP if you want to study kludges.

Perhaps you meant don't use OpenXP to study kludges.

Regards,
Martin

--- OpenXP 5.0.44
* Origin: Bitz-Box - Bradford - UK (2:310/31.3)

Hello, Martin Foster.
On 12/06/2020 16.25 you wrote:

Hello Tommi!
*** Tuesday 09.06.20 at 17:31, Tommi Koivula wrote to August Abolins: [snip]

Thoughts, Tommi?

Stop using OpenXP if you want to study kludges.

Perhaps you meant don't use OpenXP to study kludges.

That's what I said. :D

Regards,
Martin

--
Tommi

--- HotdogEd/2.13.5 (Android; Google Android; rv:1) Hotdoged/1590198455000 HotdogEd/2.13.5
* Origin: nntp://rbb.fidonet.fi - Lake Ylo - Finland (2:221/360.0)

Hello MvdV!

** On Friday 12.06.20 - 10:43, Martin Foster wrote to Michiel van der Vlist:

MvdV> It seems it was written for e-mail and usenet mail and FTN was
MvdV> added as an afterthought.

"CrossPoint v1.0 was released in 1992 as shareware for the DOS operating system. It was a pure point program for Z-Netz and its data exchange protocol Netcall. Version 2.0 appeared at the end of 1992, which also supported FidoNet, MausNet, MagicNet, QuickMail and the data format of
the new Z-Netz protocol ZConnect."

Hardly an afterthought, more of a development of the software, IMO.

Furthermore, GoldED only came along AFTER OpenXP had already included
Fidonet support. Seems that GoldED falls into the afterthought category.


../|ug

--- OpenXP 5.0.44
* Origin: This is a test of the Emergency Tagline System (2:221/1.58)

Hello Michiel!

** On Thursday 11.06.20 - 11:21, Michiel van der Vlist wrote to August Abolins:

If you have a grievance, take it up with the developer with your
officiality and tell him how broken oxp is.

MvdV> You are the one using the program, you are the one responsible.

But it works fine for me. :)

If its choice for ibm437 vs cp437 (which represent exactly the same thing) troubles you, simply take your grievance to the developer. Perhaps he/
they would be pleased with your thoroughness.

But this discussion *has* revealed OXP's purposeful change from ibm437,
which it produces properly for the original message stored in the local messagebase, to ibmpc when scanning out. THAT is currently undergoing
some scrutiny in the code.


../|ug

--- OpenXP 5.0.44
* Origin: This is a test of the Emergency Tagline System (2:221/1.58)