• 3D telly

    From Brian Gaff@21:1/5 to All on Sun Nov 20 13:14:23 2022
    I'm assuming then that 3D tv is now officially dead. What was the killer?
    The naff glasses, needing twice the bandwidth, or just that it was far too expensive to produce?
    Brian

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  • From the dog from that film you saw@21:1/5 to Brian Gaff on Sun Nov 20 14:47:51 2022
    On 20/11/2022 13:14, Brian Gaff wrote:
    I'm assuming then that 3D tv is now officially dead. What was the killer?
    The naff glasses, needing twice the bandwidth, or just that it was far too expensive to produce?
    Brian




    the glasses i'd say.
    didn't need extra bandwidth - it was 2 squashed pictures taking up the
    space of one normal one.

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  • From Roderick Stewart@21:1/5 to dsb@REMOVETHISbtinternet.com on Sun Nov 20 18:35:02 2022
    On Sun, 20 Nov 2022 14:47:51 +0000, the dog from that film you saw <dsb@REMOVETHISbtinternet.com> wrote:

    On 20/11/2022 13:14, Brian Gaff wrote:
    I'm assuming then that 3D tv is now officially dead. What was the killer?
    The naff glasses, needing twice the bandwidth, or just that it was far too >> expensive to produce?
    Brian




    the glasses i'd say.
    didn't need extra bandwidth - it was 2 squashed pictures taking up the
    space of one normal one.

    Almost certainly the glasses. Nobody wants the extra encumbrance of
    having to wear something special to watch telly, whatever the artistic advantage is supposed to be. I think the same will happen with VR,
    which will always remain an interesting gimmick, but I can't imagine
    wanting to watch an entire programme made in this format.

    Look at the evidence. 3D photography dates back to Victorian times,
    it's been used for still pictures, movies and television, John Logie
    Baird even experimented with 3D spinning disk televsion, we've always
    known how to do it and yet it's never caught on. If there was a real
    demand, it would by now be normal for movies and TV programmes to be
    made in 3D, just as they're nearly all made in widescreen, in high
    definition, in colour, and with stereo sound. But it isn't. There must
    be a reason.

    Rod.

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  • From David Wade@21:1/5 to Brian Gaff on Sun Nov 20 21:40:58 2022
    On 20/11/2022 13:14, Brian Gaff wrote:
    I'm assuming then that 3D tv is now officially dead. What was the killer?
    The naff glasses, needing twice the bandwidth, or just that it was far too expensive to produce?
    Brian

    I would say its uncomfortable to watch for many people. Your eye needs
    to focus on the screen, yet the brain thinks the objects you are viewing
    are behind the screen. So its stressful.

    I guess there are other issues, you have to wear glasses, material is
    expensive to produce, and the experience isn't, for many really
    enhanced. I think we are quite good at constructing a 3d model from a
    flat 2d image.

    Dave

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  • From Brian Gaff@21:1/5 to Roderick Stewart on Mon Nov 21 10:43:03 2022
    Yes at a very old Ideal Home exhibition, when I had sight a company were showing a camera and a form of print that looked like it was 3D, at least to some extent. It used some kind of prism to stripe the image then join them
    up at the print end. The camera had two lenses but used normal film.
    It kind of worked side to side, but not up and down, No glasses, but it
    tended to look like the picture was mad from cardboard cut outs.

    On the glasses front. Yes a vineyard in Surrey used to have a film in 3D you could watch, but you needed polarised specs, and the effect went wrong if
    you tilted your head.
    Brian

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    "Roderick Stewart" <rjfs@escapetime.myzen.co.uk> wrote in message news:ssrknh919k5qorp9s8g17m40njsedg423p@4ax.com...
    On Sun, 20 Nov 2022 14:47:51 +0000, the dog from that film you saw <dsb@REMOVETHISbtinternet.com> wrote:

    On 20/11/2022 13:14, Brian Gaff wrote:
    I'm assuming then that 3D tv is now officially dead. What was the
    killer?
    The naff glasses, needing twice the bandwidth, or just that it was far
    too
    expensive to produce?
    Brian




    the glasses i'd say.
    didn't need extra bandwidth - it was 2 squashed pictures taking up the >>space of one normal one.

    Almost certainly the glasses. Nobody wants the extra encumbrance of
    having to wear something special to watch telly, whatever the artistic advantage is supposed to be. I think the same will happen with VR,
    which will always remain an interesting gimmick, but I can't imagine
    wanting to watch an entire programme made in this format.

    Look at the evidence. 3D photography dates back to Victorian times,
    it's been used for still pictures, movies and television, John Logie
    Baird even experimented with 3D spinning disk televsion, we've always
    known how to do it and yet it's never caught on. If there was a real
    demand, it would by now be normal for movies and TV programmes to be
    made in 3D, just as they're nearly all made in widescreen, in high definition, in colour, and with stereo sound. But it isn't. There must
    be a reason.

    Rod.

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  • From Brian Gaff@21:1/5 to David Wade on Mon Nov 21 10:48:35 2022
    Yes, though I cannot see any more, I do recall the old demo of the turning shape on a turntable, looking on tv like it could be going either way, but
    when viewed in real life you could tell due to you seeing two images and
    brain decoding that.
    If you watch some cartoons where the camera, so to speak moves with the character, you will see the parallax of the different things in the
    background move at different rates to make it look 3D, but its not of
    course.

    I also wonder how these virtual concerts work. The current one Abba Voyage
    is apparently very well done, but I'd have no idea how its achieved, its obviously tricking the brain in some way that people are really there.
    Brian

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    "David Wade" <g4ugm@dave.invalid> wrote in message news:tle6tb$3jl2a$2@dont-email.me...
    On 20/11/2022 13:14, Brian Gaff wrote:
    I'm assuming then that 3D tv is now officially dead. What was the killer?
    The naff glasses, needing twice the bandwidth, or just that it was far
    too
    expensive to produce?
    Brian

    I would say its uncomfortable to watch for many people. Your eye needs to focus on the screen, yet the brain thinks the objects you are viewing are behind the screen. So its stressful.

    I guess there are other issues, you have to wear glasses, material is expensive to produce, and the experience isn't, for many really enhanced.
    I think we are quite good at constructing a 3d model from a flat 2d image.

    Dave

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  • From Max Demian@21:1/5 to Brian Gaff on Mon Nov 21 12:28:23 2022
    On 21/11/2022 10:43, Brian Gaff wrote:

    Yes at a very old Ideal Home exhibition, when I had sight a company were showing a camera and a form of print that looked like it was 3D, at least to some extent. It used some kind of prism to stripe the image then join them
    up at the print end. The camera had two lenses but used normal film.
    It kind of worked side to side, but not up and down, No glasses, but it tended to look like the picture was mad from cardboard cut outs.

    Sounds like https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lenticular_lens . I've got
    some large mats on my coffee table that work that way. 3D fish and
    flowers. The method can also be used for simple animation and a reveal
    (clothed woman/nude woman for example).

    On the glasses front. Yes a vineyard in Surrey used to have a film in 3D you could watch, but you needed polarised specs, and the effect went wrong if
    you tilted your head.

    The "serious" systems either use polarisation or liquid crystals to
    alternate vision between left and right (controlled by the TV).

    Colour based systems (that work with any colour TV) either have
    red/green lenses (result is 3D b/w); red/blue (slightly coloured) or
    amber/blue (full colour but loss of brightness). I've still got the
    glasses for the last method.

    There was also a system with one lens slightly neutrally tinted that
    relied on the time it takes for the eye to process the signal - slower
    with the tinted lens. It required there to be specific motion in the
    scene filmed.

    --
    Max Demian

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  • From NY@21:1/5 to Max Demian on Mon Nov 21 13:43:32 2022
    "Max Demian" <max_demian@bigfoot.com> wrote in message news:tlfqt5$3q2ki$1@dont-email.me...
    On 21/11/2022 10:43, Brian Gaff wrote:

    Yes at a very old Ideal Home exhibition, when I had sight a company were
    showing a camera and a form of print that looked like it was 3D, at least
    to
    some extent. It used some kind of prism to stripe the image then join
    them
    up at the print end. The camera had two lenses but used normal film.
    It kind of worked side to side, but not up and down, No glasses, but it
    tended to look like the picture was mad from cardboard cut outs.

    Sounds like https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lenticular_lens . I've got some large mats on my coffee table that work that way. 3D fish and flowers. The method can also be used for simple animation and a reveal (clothed
    woman/nude woman for example).

    Yes, lenticular printing is used to give 3D or to alternate between two different pictures. I have several bookmarks which show safari animals (giraffes, hippos etc) as two different pictures taken at a close intervals
    of time. As you rotate the bookmark about a vertical axis (with it held in landscape format) you see primitive forward/backwards movement. I imagine
    there is a way of making the two images appear simultaneously (without
    needing to rock the picture from side to side) such that one eye only sees
    one image and the other eye only sees the other - for one very precise picture-to-eye distance.


    Brian's "cardboard cutout" comment is something which is common to a lot of
    3D systems (whether they use polarised light, red/green filters on glasses,
    or precise picture-to-eye distance in a stereoscope*). For some reason that
    is connected with psychology, "artificial" 3D images tend to make the brain
    see several *flat* objects at different distances away from the viewer,
    instead of seeing solid objects which each have some depth. This effect is actually called "cardboarding". I remember going to a BCS or IEEE lecture
    which demonstrated various 3D systems, and the lecturer said that "cardboarding" was a major problem in getting 3D TV to look natural and therefore to be accepted by the public, and that no technology had yet been devised (as of about 20 years ago when I saw the lecture) which wasn't
    plagued by "cardboarding".


    (*) I first saw 3D photographs with my Viewmaster stereoscope which took cardboard discs that had pairs of images diametrically opposite, and were viewed through separate eyepieces. You pressed a lever to rotate the disc,
    to advance from one pair of transparencies to the next. And the tropical
    fish or whatever looked like cardboard cutouts at difference distances - amazing, but still very artificial-looking.

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  • From NY@21:1/5 to Roderick Stewart on Mon Nov 21 13:52:19 2022
    On 20/11/2022 18:35, Roderick Stewart wrote:

    Almost certainly the glasses. Nobody wants the extra encumbrance of having
    to wear something special to watch telly, whatever the artistic advantage
    is supposed to be.

    I found that getting used to wearing fairly heavy polarising glasses for Sky
    3D (*) was not a big issue. But the effect was very tiring after a few
    minutes. I think part of the problem was that the perception of depth was exaggerated: when your brain tells you that (by parallax) you are a long way away and looking through a telephoto lens, you don't expect much depth to be perceived, whereas the two cameras are too far apart and give heightened
    depth perception. Also, the players look like flat cardboard cutouts at
    various distances away, in front of the background grass on the pitch,
    instead of appearing solid with each having his own depth.

    But once the TV is in 3D mode, you *must* use the glasses. If you take them off, you see double images (one polarised at 90 degrees to the other, but
    the eye cannot detect polarisation).



    (*) When my brother-in-law was demonstrating it during a football match on
    Sky.

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  • From alan_m@21:1/5 to Roderick Stewart on Mon Nov 21 13:30:19 2022
    On 20/11/2022 18:35, Roderick Stewart wrote:

    Almost certainly the glasses. Nobody wants the extra encumbrance of
    having to wear something special to watch telly, whatever the artistic advantage is supposed to be.

    And it assumes that you don't normally have to wear glasses to correct
    your vision.

    --
    mailto : news {at} admac {dot} myzen {dot} co {dot} uk

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  • From Richard Tobin@21:1/5 to dsb@REMOVETHISbtinternet.com on Mon Nov 21 15:32:39 2022
    In article <t6reL.284847$GzSf.116527@fx04.ams1>,
    the dog from that film you saw <dsb@REMOVETHISbtinternet.com> wrote:

    I'm assuming then that 3D tv is now officially dead. What was the killer?
    The naff glasses, needing twice the bandwidth, or just that it was far too >> expensive to produce?

    the glasses i'd say.

    That and it not really making anything better. In fact, things often
    look worse, with people looking like cardboard cutouts placed at
    different distances rather than solid objects.

    Real 3D, where you can walk round and see things from a different
    angle, would be another matter.

    -- Richard

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  • From Sn!pe@21:1/5 to Roderick Stewart on Mon Nov 21 16:27:40 2022
    Roderick Stewart <rjfs@escapetime.myzen.co.uk> wrote:

    On Sun, 20 Nov 2022 14:47:51 +0000, the dog from that film you saw <dsb@REMOVETHISbtinternet.com> wrote:

    On 20/11/2022 13:14, Brian Gaff wrote:
    I'm assuming then that 3D tv is now officially dead. What was the killer? >> The naff glasses, needing twice the bandwidth, or just that it was far too
    expensive to produce?
    Brian




    the glasses i'd say.
    didn't need extra bandwidth - it was 2 squashed pictures taking up the >space of one normal one.

    Almost certainly the glasses. Nobody wants the extra encumbrance of
    having to wear something special to watch telly, whatever the artistic advantage is supposed to be. I think the same will happen with VR,
    which will always remain an interesting gimmick, but I can't imagine
    wanting to watch an entire programme made in this format.

    Look at the evidence. 3D photography dates back to Victorian times,
    it's been used for still pictures, movies and television, John Logie
    Baird even experimented with 3D spinning disk televsion, we've always
    known how to do it and yet it's never caught on. If there was a real
    demand, it would by now be normal for movies and TV programmes to be
    made in 3D, just as they're nearly all made in widescreen, in high definition, in colour, and with stereo sound. But it isn't. There must
    be a reason.

    Rod.

    As far as 3D cinema is concerned, polarised glasses give me a
    credible 3D effect but they hurt my eyes. My vision constantly
    tries to accommodate to 'fictitious' focus points according to the
    perceived image depth, while the actual focus points are on the
    plane of the screen. That disparity "makes my brane hurt".

    --
    ^Ï^. Sn!pe My pet rock Gordon just is.

    ~ Slava Ukraini ~

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  • From Dave W@21:1/5 to All on Mon Nov 21 20:40:09 2022
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  • From JNugent@21:1/5 to Brian Gaff on Thu Dec 1 01:39:02 2022
    On 20/11/2022 01:14 pm, Brian Gaff wrote:

    I'm assuming then that 3D tv is now officially dead. What was the killer?
    The naff glasses, needing twice the bandwidth, or just that it was far too expensive to produce?
    Brian

    Was it expensive to produce the hardware?

    Or the content?

    I have one Sony TV with the 3D facility. It wasn't any dearer than other similar TVs I've bought.

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