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  • Re: Distorted sound on right channel of Talking PicturesTV

    From Mark Carver@21:1/5 to JNugent on Fri Sep 2 08:15:07 2022
    On 24/07/2021 14:21, JNugent wrote:

    Do TV stations still play out from cine-film?

    No. Not live to air, everything is ingested into a server now. Live
    Telecine transmission fizzled out over 30 years ago.

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
    * Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)
  • From Brian Gaff@21:1/5 to Mark Carver on Fri Sep 2 08:49:18 2022
    At some point though the conversion has to be performed along with any
    massage needed to the picture or sound. Some of the early Stereo audio on
    tv tends to be a bit wobbly, distorted or just naff sounding. One supposes
    this really depends on how well it was made and how well it survived the rigours of time.
    Brian

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    "Mark Carver" <mark.carver@invalid.invalid> wrote in message news:jndorsFhp12U1@mid.individual.net...
    On 24/07/2021 14:21, JNugent wrote:

    Do TV stations still play out from cine-film?

    No. Not live to air, everything is ingested into a server now. Live
    Telecine transmission fizzled out over 30 years ago.

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
    * Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)
  • From NY@21:1/5 to Brian Gaff on Fri Sep 2 11:36:12 2022
    "Brian Gaff" <brian1gaff@gmail.com> wrote in message news:tesci2$2fq1l$1@dont-email.me...
    At some point though the conversion has to be performed along with any massage needed to the picture or sound. Some of the early Stereo audio on
    tv tends to be a bit wobbly, distorted or just naff sounding. One supposes this really depends on how well it was made and how well it survived the rigours of time.

    And also whether it was badly dubbed from one medium to another when an
    older tape/file format became deprecated and the programme library copied it
    to a newer format.

    When ITV3 started showing repeats of Inspector Morse, the sound on some episodes was appalling: the amount of background noise "pumped" up and down when people started and stopped talking. It was very disconcerting to hear virtually no sound, and then a character spoke and the background noise (traffic, birds etc) increased slightly, decreasing to nothing when the character stopped speaking. Apparently that was caused by ITV3 being
    supplied with a version that had been copied from a tape that had been
    recorded with one type of Dolby and then wrongly played back as if it were another type of Dolby when the copy was made - so the error was burned into ITV3's copy. I noticed that this seemed to have been fixed when I saw an episode recently, as if they had obtained a new copy from the master in the archive.

    The classic problem with films from the 1940s/50s that are shown on Talking Pictures TV is distorted "raspy" sound which I understand is an adjustment problem with the position of the optical sensor in the telecine that is
    reading the optical sound track on the film. It sounds like crossover distortion.

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
    * Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)
  • From Mark Carver@21:1/5 to All on Fri Sep 2 14:24:47 2022
    On 02/09/2022 11:36, NY wrote:


    The classic problem with films from the 1940s/50s that are shown on
    Talking Pictures TV is distorted "raspy" sound which I understand is
    an adjustment problem with the position of the optical sensor in the
    telecine that is reading the optical sound track on the film. It
    sounds like crossover distortion.

    Don't forget TPTV is run on a tiny budget, and I gather it's a father
    and his daughter running the admin from a garden shed (Yes, really !)
    The last thing they can afford is a high grade Telecine transcription
    service in Soho. Just be grateful the channel exists at all !

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
    * Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)
  • From Mark Carver@21:1/5 to JNugent on Fri Sep 2 15:45:46 2022
    On 02/09/2022 15:27, JNugent wrote:
    On 02/09/2022 08:15 am, Mark Carver wrote:
    On 24/07/2021 14:21, JNugent wrote:

    Do TV stations still play out from cine-film?

    No. Not live to air, everything is ingested into a server now. Live
    Telecine transmission fizzled out over 30 years ago.

    Thanks.

    As far back as the early 1990s?

    Yes. C4 have never transmitted live from Telecine, from their outset
    (Nov 82) they transferred all film material to C Format 1 inch VT for Tx.

    BBC and ITV wound down live TK for network films by the end of the 80s.
    I think non peak time was still off TK for a while, perhaps a little
    into the 90s for minor off peak stuff .

    All the ITV companies abandoned playing ads directly from TK the early 80s

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
    * Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)
  • From JNugent@21:1/5 to Mark Carver on Fri Sep 2 15:27:59 2022
    On 02/09/2022 08:15 am, Mark Carver wrote:
    On 24/07/2021 14:21, JNugent wrote:

    Do TV stations still play out from cine-film?

    No. Not live to air, everything is ingested into a server now. Live
    Telecine transmission fizzled out over 30 years ago.

    Thanks.

    As far back as the early 1990s?

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
    * Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)
  • From JNugent@21:1/5 to Mark Carver on Fri Sep 2 16:51:37 2022
    On 02/09/2022 03:45 pm, Mark Carver wrote:

    On 02/09/2022 15:27, JNugent wrote:
    On 02/09/2022 08:15 am, Mark Carver wrote:
    On 24/07/2021 14:21, JNugent wrote:

    Do TV stations still play out from cine-film?

    No. Not live to air, everything is ingested into a server now. Live
    Telecine transmission fizzled out over 30 years ago.

    Thanks.

    As far back as the early 1990s?

    Yes. C4 have never transmitted live from Telecine, from their outset
    (Nov 82) they transferred all film material to C Format 1 inch VT for Tx.

    BBC and ITV wound down live TK for network films by the end of the 80s.
    I think non peak time was still off TK for a while, perhaps a little
    into the 90s for minor off peak stuff .

    All the ITV companies abandoned playing ads directly from TK the early 80s

    Ah... for some reason, I'd forgotten about VT. It never occurred to me
    that films would be transferred to that.

    And I was even treated (1990) to a tour of the UKTV playout facilities
    at Television Centre. All mechanical grabs of cassettes (looking a
    little bit like a machine at a funfair) and MiniDisc for the
    voice-overs. My host (a senior member of Network staff) told me that day
    that a video-recorder that used a "server" rather than tape was about to
    be commercially released.

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
    * Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)
  • From Mark Carver@21:1/5 to JNugent on Fri Sep 2 18:07:08 2022
    On 02/09/2022 16:51, JNugent wrote:
    On 02/09/2022 03:45 pm, Mark Carver wrote:

    On 02/09/2022 15:27, JNugent wrote:
    On 02/09/2022 08:15 am, Mark Carver wrote:
    On 24/07/2021 14:21, JNugent wrote:

    Do TV stations still play out from cine-film?

    No. Not live to air, everything is ingested into a server now. Live
    Telecine transmission fizzled out over 30 years ago.

    Thanks.

    As far back as the early 1990s?

    Yes. C4 have never transmitted live from Telecine, from their outset
    (Nov 82) they transferred all film material to C Format 1 inch VT for
    Tx.

    BBC and ITV wound down live TK for network films by the end of the
    80s. I think non peak time was still off TK for a while, perhaps a
    little into the 90s for minor off peak stuff .

    All the ITV companies abandoned playing ads directly from TK the
    early 80s

    Ah... for some reason, I'd forgotten about VT. It never occurred to me
    that films would be transferred to that.

    And I was even treated (1990) to a tour of the UKTV playout facilities
    at Television Centre. All mechanical grabs of cassettes (looking a
    little bit like a machine at a funfair)
    Sony Flexicart most likely

    https://www.kitplus.com/images/advertisements/big/sony_bfc-1_170672.jpg

    and MiniDisc for the voice-overs. My host (a senior member of Network
    staff) told me that day that a video-recorder that used a "server"
    rather than tape was about to be commercially released.

    Tektronix Profile most likely

    https://www.vector3.tv/wp-content/uploads/2020/03/PDR-100-1.png

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
    * Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)
  • From NY@21:1/5 to JNugent on Fri Sep 2 21:03:54 2022
    "JNugent" <jennings&co@fastmail.fm> wrote in message news:jnei7fFlnhpU1@mid.individual.net...
    On 02/09/2022 08:15 am, Mark Carver wrote:
    On 24/07/2021 14:21, JNugent wrote:

    Do TV stations still play out from cine-film?

    No. Not live to air, everything is ingested into a server now. Live
    Telecine transmission fizzled out over 30 years ago.

    Thanks.

    As far back as the early 1990s?

    Was 16 mm reversal film for news reports one of the last things to be
    telecined live? When was news film replaced by ENG? I know ENG started in
    the late 1970s or early 1980s, but it was fairly rare to begin with: it made
    a change to see a few news reports that were free of enormous fuzzy grain
    due to Ektachrome 160 being push-processed by 2 (or more!) stops. Mind you,
    one camera flash into the lens of an early ENG camera and you had to endure several seconds of purple or green after-image ;-)

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
    * Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)
  • From Brian Gaff@21:1/5 to me@privacy.invalid on Sat Sep 3 09:15:46 2022
    The Avengers uses a noise Gate to attempt to cut down on film noise with the effect that you hear the film noise on even quiet sounds. It would have
    sounded better to have left the noise as constant and let the sound be
    normal.
    Getting back to Talking Pictures, if that is only happening on some
    content, then its obviously either the content, a set up problem or a fault.
    If its on all output then it has to be in their general gear that feeds out
    to the network. Having said that, I'm so used to a lot of their output being vintage and grotty sounding maybe I have not noticed it.
    Brian

    --

    --:
    This newsgroup posting comes to you directly from...
    The Sofa of Brian Gaff...
    briang1@blueyonder.co.uk
    Blind user, so no pictures please
    Note this Signature is meaningless.!
    "NY" <me@privacy.invalid> wrote in message
    news:tesmba$2gnsi$1@dont-email.me...
    "Brian Gaff" <brian1gaff@gmail.com> wrote in message news:tesci2$2fq1l$1@dont-email.me...
    At some point though the conversion has to be performed along with any
    massage needed to the picture or sound. Some of the early Stereo audio
    on tv tends to be a bit wobbly, distorted or just naff sounding. One
    supposes this really depends on how well it was made and how well it
    survived the rigours of time.

    And also whether it was badly dubbed from one medium to another when an
    older tape/file format became deprecated and the programme library copied
    it to a newer format.

    When ITV3 started showing repeats of Inspector Morse, the sound on some episodes was appalling: the amount of background noise "pumped" up and
    down when people started and stopped talking. It was very disconcerting to hear virtually no sound, and then a character spoke and the background
    noise (traffic, birds etc) increased slightly, decreasing to nothing when
    the character stopped speaking. Apparently that was caused by ITV3 being supplied with a version that had been copied from a tape that had been recorded with one type of Dolby and then wrongly played back as if it were another type of Dolby when the copy was made - so the error was burned
    into ITV3's copy. I noticed that this seemed to have been fixed when I saw
    an episode recently, as if they had obtained a new copy from the master in the archive.

    The classic problem with films from the 1940s/50s that are shown on
    Talking Pictures TV is distorted "raspy" sound which I understand is an adjustment problem with the position of the optical sensor in the telecine that is reading the optical sound track on the film. It sounds like
    crossover distortion.

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
    * Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)
  • From Brian Gaff@21:1/5 to Mark Carver on Sat Sep 3 09:20:57 2022
    I don't think that is the issue. Most of their work is research into who has rights, can we get them and how much useful content is already transcribed.
    To some extent they are at the mercy of their suppliers. When Bob Monkhouse
    was alive he made a programme about the search for decent versions of films etc. A lot of so called preserved vintage film has the levels of the video
    all over the place due to what I call blooping, where detail in a picture
    is lost as peak white is reached far before it should be.
    There was a name for that effect, but one needs to avoid these like the
    plague apparently. A lot of Laurel and Hardy stuff was like that.
    Now I cannot see, I don't know if that is still the case.
    Brian

    --

    --:
    This newsgroup posting comes to you directly from...
    The Sofa of Brian Gaff...
    briang1@blueyonder.co.uk
    Blind user, so no pictures please
    Note this Signature is meaningless.!
    "Mark Carver" <mark.carver@invalid.invalid> wrote in message news:jneeh0Fl5giU1@mid.individual.net...
    On 02/09/2022 11:36, NY wrote:


    The classic problem with films from the 1940s/50s that are shown on
    Talking Pictures TV is distorted "raspy" sound which I understand is an
    adjustment problem with the position of the optical sensor in the
    telecine that is reading the optical sound track on the film. It sounds
    like crossover distortion.

    Don't forget TPTV is run on a tiny budget, and I gather it's a father and
    his daughter running the admin from a garden shed (Yes, really !) The last thing they can afford is a high grade Telecine transcription service in
    Soho. Just be grateful the channel exists at all !


    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
    * Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)
  • From Brian Gaff@21:1/5 to Mark Carver on Sat Sep 3 09:28:51 2022
    I remember many moons ago, that I went to a fledgling cable tv distribution centre, and they had banks of Sony Umatic cassette players for things like locally sourced stuff. Even then a lot of it was manually loaded but
    automated remotely. We thought that was clever back then, now its a black
    art.
    Brian

    --

    --:
    This newsgroup posting comes to you directly from...
    The Sofa of Brian Gaff...
    briang1@blueyonder.co.uk
    Blind user, so no pictures please
    Note this Signature is meaningless.!
    "Mark Carver" <mark.carver@invalid.invalid> wrote in message news:jnerhsFn61uU1@mid.individual.net...
    On 02/09/2022 16:51, JNugent wrote:
    On 02/09/2022 03:45 pm, Mark Carver wrote:

    On 02/09/2022 15:27, JNugent wrote:
    On 02/09/2022 08:15 am, Mark Carver wrote:
    On 24/07/2021 14:21, JNugent wrote:

    Do TV stations still play out from cine-film?

    No. Not live to air, everything is ingested into a server now. Live
    Telecine transmission fizzled out over 30 years ago.

    Thanks.

    As far back as the early 1990s?

    Yes. C4 have never transmitted live from Telecine, from their outset
    (Nov 82) they transferred all film material to C Format 1 inch VT for
    Tx.

    BBC and ITV wound down live TK for network films by the end of the 80s.
    I think non peak time was still off TK for a while, perhaps a little
    into the 90s for minor off peak stuff .

    All the ITV companies abandoned playing ads directly from TK the early
    80s

    Ah... for some reason, I'd forgotten about VT. It never occurred to me
    that films would be transferred to that.

    And I was even treated (1990) to a tour of the UKTV playout facilities at
    Television Centre. All mechanical grabs of cassettes (looking a little
    bit like a machine at a funfair)
    Sony Flexicart most likely

    https://www.kitplus.com/images/advertisements/big/sony_bfc-1_170672.jpg

    and MiniDisc for the voice-overs. My host (a senior member of Network
    staff) told me that day that a video-recorder that used a "server" rather
    than tape was about to be commercially released.

    Tektronix Profile most likely

    https://www.vector3.tv/wp-content/uploads/2020/03/PDR-100-1.png




    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
    * Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)
  • From Roderick Stewart@21:1/5 to All on Sat Sep 3 09:43:14 2022
    On Fri, 2 Sep 2022 16:51:37 +0100, JNugent <jennings&co@fastmail.fm>
    wrote:

    Yes. C4 have never transmitted live from Telecine, from their outset
    (Nov 82) they transferred all film material to C Format 1 inch VT for Tx.

    BBC and ITV wound down live TK for network films by the end of the 80s.
    I think non peak time was still off TK for a while, perhaps a little
    into the 90s for minor off peak stuff .

    All the ITV companies abandoned playing ads directly from TK the early 80s

    Ah... for some reason, I'd forgotten about VT. It never occurred to me
    that films would be transferred to that.

    Despite being more complicated, videotape has always been more
    reliable than telecine. It rarely breaks in the middle of a
    transmission, whereas film can sometimes do this, particularly if it
    contains any physical splices.

    It also gives the opportunity to preassemble the separate reels of a
    movie onto a single spool of tape which won't need any attention for
    the full running time of the movie.

    Then there is the fact that colour matching between shots in a typical Hollywood movie is usually pretty terrible without electronic
    correction, and if necessary this can be done shot by shot by means of electronic edits when copying the movie to tape.

    Rod.

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
    * Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)
  • From Brian Gaff@21:1/5 to JNugent on Sat Sep 3 09:23:05 2022
    Don't know but certainly its was not unknown for films to break as they did
    in the cinema on tv too. I imagine using a hight grade video format at the
    time allowed one to fix such things in the edit stage.
    Brian

    --

    --:
    This newsgroup posting comes to you directly from...
    The Sofa of Brian Gaff...
    briang1@blueyonder.co.uk
    Blind user, so no pictures please
    Note this Signature is meaningless.!
    "JNugent" <jennings&co@fastmail.fm> wrote in message news:jnei7fFlnhpU1@mid.individual.net...
    On 02/09/2022 08:15 am, Mark Carver wrote:
    On 24/07/2021 14:21, JNugent wrote:

    Do TV stations still play out from cine-film?

    No. Not live to air, everything is ingested into a server now. Live
    Telecine transmission fizzled out over 30 years ago.

    Thanks.

    As far back as the early 1990s?


    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
    * Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)