I have a signal strength meter which has worked well in the past, and this
is showing a strong signal.
Very strong at maximum amplification.
However the stations received don't match the signal strength (if you see what I mean).
We have just changed from a caravan to a motor home.
The caravan (also the previous MH) had a TV aerial on an extendible pole which could be rotated towards the transmitter, and could also be moved between horizontal and vertical polarisation.
The current aerial is like a mushroom and is "omnidirectional".
Like the other aerials it has a signal booster with variable gain.
I have a signal strength meter which has worked well in the past, and this
is showing a strong signal.
Very strong at maximum amplification.
However the stations received don't match the signal strength (if you see what I mean).
Now the piece of string bit.
Does anyone have an idea how much less efficient these omnidirectional thingies are compared to a directional aerial?
Also how do they cope with vertical and horizontal polarisation?
The "proper" aerials also have more height because they are extendable.
I am contemplating having a "proper" aerial installed which will require a location with enough depth to take the pole when retracted.
Cutting another hole in the roof, of course.
I would first like a "guestimate" of how much improvement I would see.
Does anyone have an idea how much less efficient these omnidirectional thingies are compared to a directional aerial?
Also how do they cope with vertical and horizontal polarisation?
The "proper" aerials also have more height because they are extendable.
I am contemplating having a "proper" aerial installed which will require a location with enough depth to take the pole when retracted.
Cutting another hole in the roof, of course.
I would first like a "guestimate" of how much improvement I would see.
On 29/07/2022 13:36, David wrote:
Does anyone have an idea how much less efficient these omnidirectional
thingies are compared to a directional aerial?
Very much less effective, for a multitude of reasons.
Also how do they cope with vertical and horizontal polarisation?
They receive both simultaneously in some cases, or only HP in others. Receiving both is a bad thing because it's likely to let more noise in.
The "proper" aerials also have more height because they are extendable.
Getting the aerial away from the metal roof is good. The height benefit depends on local reception circumstances.
I am contemplating having a "proper" aerial installed which will
require a location with enough depth to take the pole when retracted.
Cutting another hole in the roof, of course.
I would first like a "guestimate" of how much improvement I would see.
Get it done. Make sure you have an interlock so you have to lower it to drive, or have a system whereby you fix something to the steering wheel
when the aerial is up.
These work well: Vision Plus Status 570 Directional TV and Radio
Antenna.
Bill
On 29/07/2022 13:36, David wrote:
I have a signal strength meter which has worked well in the past, and
this is showing a strong signal.
Very strong at maximum amplification.
However the stations received don't match the signal strength (if you
see what I mean).
You need to measure signal to noise ratio, not signal strength. That is something that most modern TVs will tell you, for digital multiplexes,
but not something that a simple meter will tell you, as you need to work
out what part of the input represents signal, and you really need to
recover the signal to do that. Even then you will probably only get
good readings if the signal is, at least somewhat, usable.
What's probably happening, in your case, is that you have a very poor
signal to noise ratio. Amplifying it will increase both signal and noise
by the same amount and also add some of its own noise, making the
resulting signal to noise ratio worse.
(Amplifying can sometimes help, if the TV input stage is noisy, and the amplifier input stage less noisy.)
Excessive amplification will overload the TV and create distortion
products which also degrade the signal.
Very much less effective, for a multitude of reasons.
I am guessing that I have a high noise to signal ratio, but I'm not sure where the noise is coming from.
Could be the aerial or could be the amplifier itself.
Though the omnidirectional aspect can be an advantage.
worked in Cornwall and used to up on a nearby hill in evening and
operate on 2m.
Always has to be remembered that you never get something for nothing. If
you have a very directional antenna then it has lots of 'loss' in other directions.
On Fri, 29 Jul 2022 13:46:02 +0100, David Woolley wrote:
On 29/07/2022 13:36, David wrote:
I have a signal strength meter which has worked well in the past, and
this is showing a strong signal.
Very strong at maximum amplification.
However the stations received don't match the signal strength (if you
see what I mean).
You need to measure signal to noise ratio, not signal strength. That is
something that most modern TVs will tell you, for digital multiplexes,
but not something that a simple meter will tell you, as you need to work
out what part of the input represents signal, and you really need to
recover the signal to do that. Even then you will probably only get
good readings if the signal is, at least somewhat, usable.
What's probably happening, in your case, is that you have a very poor
signal to noise ratio. Amplifying it will increase both signal and noise
by the same amount and also add some of its own noise, making the
resulting signal to noise ratio worse.
(Amplifying can sometimes help, if the TV input stage is noisy, and the
amplifier input stage less noisy.)
Excessive amplification will overload the TV and create distortion
products which also degrade the signal.
I am guessing that I have a high noise to signal ratio, but I'm not sure where the noise is coming from.
Could be the aerial or could be the amplifier itself.
I think that I can bypass the amplifier (not just switch it off) and see
how that goes.
I will also tinker with the TV to see if it gives any signal quality information.
I am guessing that I have a high noise to signal ratio, but I'm not sure where the noise is coming from.
Could be the aerial or could be the amplifier itself.
I think that I can bypass the amplifier (not just switch it off) and see
how that goes.
In a rural campsite environment, most of the noise you are combatting
will likely be the former
On 29/07/2022 17:02, Woody wrote:
The solution is to tune the TV manually. If you don't know which
transmitters serve your location go the wolfbane.com
No don't do that. Wolfblane is about 5 years out of date !! Stiil
quoting all the pre B700 clearance allocations.
Use this
https://www.freeview.co.uk/corporate/detailed-transmitter-information
On 29/07/2022 17:02, Woody wrote:
The solution is to tune the TV manually. If you don't know which
transmitters serve your location go the wolfbane.com
No don't do that. Wolfblane is about 5 years out of date !! Stiil
quoting all the pre B700 clearance allocations.
Use this
https://www.freeview.co.uk/corporate/detailed-transmitter-information
On Fri 29/07/2022 17:28, Mark Carver wrote:
On 29/07/2022 17:02, Woody wrote:
The solution is to tune the TV manually. If you don't know which
transmitters serve your location go the wolfbane.com
No don't do that. Wolfblane is about 5 years out of date !! Stiil
quoting all the pre B700 clearance allocations.
Use this
https://www.freeview.co.uk/corporate/detailed-transmitter-information
I admit Mark that it is a while since I had to use Wolfbane and as you
say it is way out of date (it was always wildly pessimistic about
aerial type as well!)
I didn't know of the part of the Freeview site in your link above and
a couple of quick checks indicate it is good.
On 29/07/2022 17:44, Woody wrote:
On Fri 29/07/2022 17:28, Mark Carver wrote:It's about the most up to date list there is I think. More up to date
On 29/07/2022 17:02, Woody wrote:
The solution is to tune the TV manually. If you don't know which
transmitters serve your location go the wolfbane.com
No don't do that. Wolfblane is about 5 years out of date !! Stiil
quoting all the pre B700 clearance allocations.
Use this
https://www.freeview.co.uk/corporate/detailed-transmitter-information
I admit Mark that it is a while since I had to use Wolfbane and as you
say it is way out of date (it was always wildly pessimistic about
aerial type as well!)
I didn't know of the part of the Freeview site in your link above and
a couple of quick checks indicate it is good.
than Ofcom's list, (which is buried deep deep inside their website)!!
I am guessing that I have a high noise to signal ratio, but I'm not sure where the noise is coming from.
Could be the aerial or could be the amplifier itself.
The solution is to tune the TV manually. If you don't know which
transmitters serve your location go the wolfbane.com
The most like sources of noise in an ideal rural environment, in
descending order are:
On 29/07/2022 15:48, David wrote:<snip>
I am guessing that I have a high noise to signal ratio, but I'm not
sure where the noise is coming from.
Could be the aerial or could be the amplifier itself.
The lack of passive gain in an omnidirectional aerial basically means
you have a lot less signal, but not proportionately less noise.
The most like sources of noise in an ideal rural environment, in
descending order are:
* the amplifier;
* thermal noise from the ground, buildings and trees;
* sky noise from the cosmos.
On Fri 29/07/2022 17:48, Mark Carver wrote:
On 29/07/2022 17:44, Woody wrote:
On Fri 29/07/2022 17:28, Mark Carver wrote:It's about the most up to date list there is I think. More up to date
On 29/07/2022 17:02, Woody wrote:
The solution is to tune the TV manually. If you don't know which
transmitters serve your location go the wolfbane.com
No don't do that. Wolfblane is about 5 years out of date !! Stiil
quoting all the pre B700 clearance allocations.
Use this
https://www.freeview.co.uk/corporate/detailed-transmitter-information
I admit Mark that it is a while since I had to use Wolfbane and as
you say it is way out of date (it was always wildly pessimistic
about aerial type as well!)
I didn't know of the part of the Freeview site in your link above
and a couple of quick checks indicate it is good.
than Ofcom's list, (which is buried deep deep inside their website)!!
Question Mark: the Reception Summary for Bilsdale just shows 2222. Any
idea what this means - especially as Freeview apparently don't have an
email address, they seem to think that everyone uses social media?!!
I was at a small site at Wroxham,
I am contemplating having a "proper" aerial installed which will
require a location with enough depth to take the pole when retracted.
Cutting another hole in the roof, of course.
On 29/07/2022 17:56, Woody wrote:
On Fri 29/07/2022 17:48, Mark Carver wrote:I don't know how you're seeing that. I've just stuck Bill Wright's
On 29/07/2022 17:44, Woody wrote:
On Fri 29/07/2022 17:28, Mark Carver wrote:It's about the most up to date list there is I think. More up to date
On 29/07/2022 17:02, Woody wrote:I admit Mark that it is a while since I had to use Wolfbane and as
The solution is to tune the TV manually. If you don't know which
transmitters serve your location go the wolfbane.com
No don't do that. Wolfblane is about 5 years out of date !! Stiil
quoting all the pre B700 clearance allocations.
Use this
https://www.freeview.co.uk/corporate/detailed-transmitter-information >>>>
you say it is way out of date (it was always wildly pessimistic
about aerial type as well!)
I didn't know of the part of the Freeview site in your link above
and a couple of quick checks indicate it is good.
than Ofcom's list, (which is buried deep deep inside their website)!!
Question Mark: the Reception Summary for Bilsdale just shows 2222. Any
idea what this means - especially as Freeview apparently don't have an
email address, they seem to think that everyone uses social media?!!
postcode it, and that seems to return normal style results for Bilsdale ?
On Fri 29/07/2022 15:48, David wrote:
On Fri, 29 Jul 2022 13:46:02 +0100, David Woolley wrote:
On 29/07/2022 13:36, David wrote:
I have a signal strength meter which has worked well in the past, and
this is showing a strong signal.
Very strong at maximum amplification.
However the stations received don't match the signal strength (if you
see what I mean).
You need to measure signal to noise ratio, not signal strength. That is >>> something that most modern TVs will tell you, for digital multiplexes,
but not something that a simple meter will tell you, as you need to work >>> out what part of the input represents signal, and you really need to
recover the signal to do that. Even then you will probably only get
good readings if the signal is, at least somewhat, usable.
What's probably happening, in your case, is that you have a very poor
signal to noise ratio. Amplifying it will increase both signal and noise >>> by the same amount and also add some of its own noise, making the
resulting signal to noise ratio worse.
(Amplifying can sometimes help, if the TV input stage is noisy, and the
amplifier input stage less noisy.)
Excessive amplification will overload the TV and create distortion
products which also degrade the signal.
I am guessing that I have a high noise to signal ratio, but I'm not sure
where the noise is coming from.
Could be the aerial or could be the amplifier itself.
I think that I can bypass the amplifier (not just switch it off) and see
how that goes.
I will also tinker with the TV to see if it gives any signal quality
information.
OK, lets go through this in depth.
Firstly the 'mushroom' type are dual polarity and usually very effective - indeed the Vision 300 series of the old days were often better than the directionals of that time.
Second: establish whether the amp is in the head or inside the vehicle -
my guess would be the latter - and that all is wired up correctly
including supply (I joke - not!) It is easier to replace the amp if it is inside the vehicle rather than in the aerial.
I assume the OP has tuned the TV but auto or manual? If auto, did the TV offer a region at the end of the tuning cycle? The fact that the signal strength meter - which by definition will be wideband - is showing end-stopping strength suggests that the TV is on the wrong transmitter.
This can happen if both a relay and a main station provide coverage and
both provide the same region. It happens because TVs <always> start tuning from the lowest channel and the higher channel signal could be providing
the strong signal that the meter is showing. Theoretically the TV should select the stronger signal but not always.
The solution is to tune the TV manually. If you don't know which
transmitters serve your location go the wolfbane.com and select UK digital
TV reception predictor. Give your location postcode and a aerial height of 4m, select Distant and hit enter. You will get a table showing the serving transmitters for your location which includes the channels used on that station, estimated signal strength, direction, polarity. It should be
obvious which transmitter to use.
Then start over by tuning the TV manually - if it will offer you that
option.
Please come back here an let us know how you get on.
We have just changed from a caravan to a motor home.
The caravan (also the previous MH) had a TV aerial on an extendible pole which could be rotated towards the transmitter, and could also be moved between horizontal and vertical polarisation.
The current aerial is like a mushroom and is "omnidirectional".
Like the other aerials it has a signal booster with variable gain.
I have a signal strength meter which has worked well in the past, and this
is showing a strong signal.
Very strong at maximum amplification.
However the stations received don't match the signal strength (if you see what I mean).
Now the piece of string bit.
Does anyone have an idea how much less efficient these omnidirectional thingies are compared to a directional aerial?
Also how do they cope with vertical and horizontal polarisation?
The "proper" aerials also have more height because they are extendable.
I am contemplating having a "proper" aerial installed which will require a location with enough depth to take the pole when retracted.
Cutting another hole in the roof, of course.
I would first like a "guestimate" of how much improvement I would see.
Cheers
Dave R
--
AMD FX-6300 in GA-990X-Gaming SLI-CF running Windows 7 Pro x64
--
This email has been checked for viruses by Avast antivirus software. https://www.avast.com/antivirus
David <wibble@btinternet.com> writes:
I am contemplating having a "proper" aerial installed which will
require a location with enough depth to take the pole when retracted.
Cutting another hole in the roof, of course.
You could try out alternative aerials in free-standing experiments
before cutting holes.
--
Pete Forman
https://payg.pythonanywhere.com/
On 29/07/2022 17:02, Woody wrote:
The solution is to tune the TV manually. If you don't know which
transmitters serve your location go the wolfbane.com
No don't do that. Wolfblane is about 5 years out of date !! Stiil
quoting all the pre B700 clearance allocations.
Use this
https://www.freeview.co.uk/corporate/detailed-transmitter-information
On Fri 29/07/2022 15:48, David wrote:
On Fri, 29 Jul 2022 13:46:02 +0100, David Woolley wrote:OK, lets go through this in depth.
On 29/07/2022 13:36, David wrote:
I have a signal strength meter which has worked well in the past, and
this is showing a strong signal.
Very strong at maximum amplification.
However the stations received don't match the signal strength (if you
see what I mean).
You need to measure signal to noise ratio, not signal strength. That
is something that most modern TVs will tell you, for digital
multiplexes, but not something that a simple meter will tell you, as
you need to work out what part of the input represents signal, and you
really need to recover the signal to do that. Even then you will
probably only get good readings if the signal is, at least somewhat,
usable.
What's probably happening, in your case, is that you have a very poor
signal to noise ratio. Amplifying it will increase both signal and
noise by the same amount and also add some of its own noise, making
the resulting signal to noise ratio worse.
(Amplifying can sometimes help, if the TV input stage is noisy, and
the amplifier input stage less noisy.)
Excessive amplification will overload the TV and create distortion
products which also degrade the signal.
I am guessing that I have a high noise to signal ratio, but I'm not
sure where the noise is coming from.
Could be the aerial or could be the amplifier itself.
I think that I can bypass the amplifier (not just switch it off) and
see how that goes.
I will also tinker with the TV to see if it gives any signal quality
information.
Firstly the 'mushroom' type are dual polarity and usually very effective
- indeed the Vision 300 series of the old days were often better than
the directionals of that time.
Second: establish whether the amp is in the head or inside the vehicle -
my guess would be the latter - and that all is wired up correctly
including supply (I joke - not!) It is easier to replace the amp if it
is inside the vehicle rather than in the aerial.
I assume the OP has tuned the TV but auto or manual? If auto, did the TV offer a region at the end of the tuning cycle?
The fact that the signal
strength meter - which by definition will be wideband - is showing end-stopping strength suggests that the TV is on the wrong transmitter.
This can happen if both a relay and a main station provide coverage and
both provide the same region. It happens because TVs <always> start
tuning from the lowest channel and the higher channel signal could be providing the strong signal that the meter is showing. Theoretically the
TV should select the stronger signal but not always.
The solution is to tune the TV manually.
transmitters serve your location go the wolfbane.com and select UK
digital TV reception predictor. Give your location postcode and a aerial height of 4m, select Distant and hit enter. You will get a table showing
the serving transmitters for your location which includes the channels
used on that station, estimated signal strength, direction, polarity. It should be obvious which transmitter to use.
Then start over by tuning the TV manually - if it will offer you that
option.
Please come back here an let us know how you get on.
On Fri, 29 Jul 2022 17:02:21 +0100, Woody wrote:
On Fri 29/07/2022 15:48, David wrote:
On Fri, 29 Jul 2022 13:46:02 +0100, David Woolley wrote:OK, lets go through this in depth.
On 29/07/2022 13:36, David wrote:
I have a signal strength meter which has worked well in the past, and >>>>> this is showing a strong signal.
Very strong at maximum amplification.
However the stations received don't match the signal strength (if you >>>>> see what I mean).
You need to measure signal to noise ratio, not signal strength. That
is something that most modern TVs will tell you, for digital
multiplexes, but not something that a simple meter will tell you, as
you need to work out what part of the input represents signal, and you >>>> really need to recover the signal to do that. Even then you will
probably only get good readings if the signal is, at least somewhat,
usable.
What's probably happening, in your case, is that you have a very poor
signal to noise ratio. Amplifying it will increase both signal and
noise by the same amount and also add some of its own noise, making
the resulting signal to noise ratio worse.
(Amplifying can sometimes help, if the TV input stage is noisy, and
the amplifier input stage less noisy.)
Excessive amplification will overload the TV and create distortion
products which also degrade the signal.
I am guessing that I have a high noise to signal ratio, but I'm not
sure where the noise is coming from.
Could be the aerial or could be the amplifier itself.
I think that I can bypass the amplifier (not just switch it off) and
see how that goes.
I will also tinker with the TV to see if it gives any signal quality
information.
Firstly the 'mushroom' type are dual polarity and usually very effective
- indeed the Vision 300 series of the old days were often better than
the directionals of that time.
Second: establish whether the amp is in the head or inside the vehicle -
my guess would be the latter - and that all is wired up correctly
including supply (I joke - not!) It is easier to replace the amp if it
is inside the vehicle rather than in the aerial.
The amp is on the wall inside a cupboard just below the place where the TV aerial is installed on the roof.
That is how I can turn the amplifier up and down to see the change in
signal strength.
I assume that it is wired correctly because it seems to work fine on our drive.
I assume the OP has tuned the TV but auto or manual? If auto, did the TV
offer a region at the end of the tuning cycle?
Tuned auto, but there was no regional question at the end.
I don't recall seeing this when using the TV around the country in the caravan, but perhaps if there is only one transmitter visible to the TV,
and not several, there is no need to ask which one to use.
The fact that the signal
strength meter - which by definition will be wideband - is showing
end-stopping strength suggests that the TV is on the wrong transmitter.
This can happen if both a relay and a main station provide coverage and
both provide the same region. It happens because TVs <always> start
tuning from the lowest channel and the higher channel signal could be
providing the strong signal that the meter is showing. Theoretically the
TV should select the stronger signal but not always.
There is the possibility of repeaters from the coast being seen during tuning, but virtually no channels are being found so I am assuming that no viable signal has been found for most channels.
Channel 25 was the lowest number found.
I assume repeaters only carry a subset, but also these would include the
main BBC and ITV channels.
The postcode is NR12 8RX if anyone fancies looking it up for signal and transmitter information.
The solution is to tune the TV manually.
I am assuming that this will let you pick your transmitter from several competing ones.
In this case I don't think I have this problem.
I will bear manual tuning in mind if I hit similar problems in the future.
I think I should practice at home to see what options it offers.
So far I haven't been able to find anything on the TV to display signal strength and quality.
My memories of such features seem to be of satellite tuners but perhaps I haven't found the menu option or this TV doesn't offer it.
transmitters serve your location go the wolfbane.com and select UK
digital TV reception predictor. Give your location postcode and a aerial
height of 4m, select Distant and hit enter. You will get a table showing
the serving transmitters for your location which includes the channels
used on that station, estimated signal strength, direction, polarity. It
should be obvious which transmitter to use.
Then start over by tuning the TV manually - if it will offer you that
option.
Please come back here an let us know how you get on.
As stated elsewhere, I tried Wolfbane and failed to reach the site.
The Freeview site gave me the information.
On Fri, 29 Jul 2022 17:28:02 +0100, Mark Carver wrote:
On 29/07/2022 17:02, Woody wrote:I tried Wolfbane and couldn't get the site (DNS problem, possibly due to
The solution is to tune the TV manually. If you don't know whichNo don't do that. Wolfblane is about 5 years out of date !! Stiil
transmitters serve your location go the wolfbane.com
quoting all the pre B700 clearance allocations.
Use this
https://www.freeview.co.uk/corporate/detailed-transmitter-information
poor signal) and ended up using that site.
I don't think the problem was using a poorer transmitter because I didn't even see the main BBC and ITV channels.
David <wibble@btinternet.com> writes:
I am contemplating having a "proper" aerial installed which will
require a location with enough depth to take the pole when retracted.
Cutting another hole in the roof, of course.
You could try out alternative aerials in free-standing experiments
before cutting holes.
I too have just put Bill's postcode in and it gives 0202 as the
Reception Summary for Bilsdale, BUT for Bilsdale local it shows 'Good' - which would be a bit difficult give it is (was) a directional aerial for Teesside!
On 30/07/2022 11:39, David wrote:
I don't think the problem was using a poorer transmitter because I
didn't even see the main BBC and ITV channels.
Wroxham is very low down. Taccy is not good there at the best of times.
And I'd be amazed if you received anything from anywhere else.
Bill
On Sat 30/07/2022 11:58, David wrote:Com5=45 Com6=39 Some HD TVs
On Fri, 29 Jul 2022 17:02:21 +0100, Woody wrote:
On Fri 29/07/2022 15:48, David wrote:
On Fri, 29 Jul 2022 13:46:02 +0100, David Woolley wrote:OK, lets go through this in depth.
On 29/07/2022 13:36, David wrote:
I have a signal strength meter which has worked well in the past,
and this is showing a strong signal.
Very strong at maximum amplification.
However the stations received don't match the signal strength (if
you see what I mean).
You need to measure signal to noise ratio, not signal strength.
That is something that most modern TVs will tell you, for digital
multiplexes, but not something that a simple meter will tell you, as >>>>> you need to work out what part of the input represents signal, and
you really need to recover the signal to do that. Even then you
will probably only get good readings if the signal is, at least
somewhat, usable.
What's probably happening, in your case, is that you have a very
poor signal to noise ratio. Amplifying it will increase both signal
and noise by the same amount and also add some of its own noise,
making the resulting signal to noise ratio worse.
(Amplifying can sometimes help, if the TV input stage is noisy, and
the amplifier input stage less noisy.)
Excessive amplification will overload the TV and create distortion
products which also degrade the signal.
I am guessing that I have a high noise to signal ratio, but I'm not
sure where the noise is coming from.
Could be the aerial or could be the amplifier itself.
I think that I can bypass the amplifier (not just switch it off) and
see how that goes.
I will also tinker with the TV to see if it gives any signal quality
information.
Firstly the 'mushroom' type are dual polarity and usually very
effective - indeed the Vision 300 series of the old days were often
better than the directionals of that time.
Second: establish whether the amp is in the head or inside the vehicle
-
my guess would be the latter - and that all is wired up correctly
including supply (I joke - not!) It is easier to replace the amp if it
is inside the vehicle rather than in the aerial.
The amp is on the wall inside a cupboard just below the place where the
TV aerial is installed on the roof.
That is how I can turn the amplifier up and down to see the change in
signal strength.
I assume that it is wired correctly because it seems to work fine on
our drive.
I assume the OP has tuned the TV but auto or manual? If auto, did the
TV offer a region at the end of the tuning cycle?
Tuned auto, but there was no regional question at the end.
I don't recall seeing this when using the TV around the country in the
caravan, but perhaps if there is only one transmitter visible to the
TV, and not several, there is no need to ask which one to use.
The fact that the signal strength meter - which by definition will be
wideband - is showing end-stopping strength suggests that the TV is on
the wrong transmitter. This can happen if both a relay and a main
station provide coverage and both provide the same region. It happens
because TVs <always> start tuning from the lowest channel and the
higher channel signal could be providing the strong signal that the
meter is showing. Theoretically the TV should select the stronger
signal but not always.
There is the possibility of repeaters from the coast being seen during
tuning, but virtually no channels are being found so I am assuming that
no viable signal has been found for most channels.
Channel 25 was the lowest number found.
I assume repeaters only carry a subset, but also these would include
the main BBC and ITV channels.
The postcode is NR12 8RX if anyone fancies looking it up for signal and
transmitter information.
The solution is to tune the TV manually.
I am assuming that this will let you pick your transmitter from several
competing ones.
In this case I don't think I have this problem.
I will bear manual tuning in mind if I hit similar problems in the
future.
I think I should practice at home to see what options it offers.
So far I haven't been able to find anything on the TV to display signal
strength and quality.
My memories of such features seem to be of satellite tuners but perhaps
I haven't found the menu option or this TV doesn't offer it.
transmitters serve your location go the wolfbane.com and select UK
digital TV reception predictor. Give your location postcode and a
aerial height of 4m, select Distant and hit enter. You will get a
table showing the serving transmitters for your location which
includes the channels used on that station, estimated signal strength,
direction, polarity. It should be obvious which transmitter to use.
Then start over by tuning the TV manually - if it will offer you that
option.
Please come back here an let us know how you get on.
As stated elsewhere, I tried Wolfbane and failed to reach the site.
The Freeview site gave me the information.
Make and model of TV will help.
Manual tuning does not give a selection. You enter the (transmitter)
channel number and the TV tunes that channel only. You can then watch
any station carried in the mux that said channel is carrying.
Relays carry only three channels:
PSB1 (or BBC A as Freeview insist on calling it) which has all of the
BBC SD TV and a number of radio stations;
PSB2 (or D3&4) carries a selection of independent stations such as ITV
1/2/4, Ch4 and E4 and Five, 14 in all, plus some radio stations.
PSB3 (or BBC B) carries a selection of HD channels from both BBC and independent.
Main stations also carry Com4/5/6 (or SDN, Arqiva A and Arqiva B in Freeview-speak) which carry far to many stations to list here.
If you can find manual tuning on your TV the channels for Tacolneston
are PSB1=40 PSB2=43 PSB3=46 Com4=42
require you under manual selection to change the format to DVB-T2 else
it will not see PSB3.
There is also a local mux on channel 32 which carries Norwich local TV
and a couple of other stations..
Tacolneston is 28Km at 217deg from your postcode
On Fri, 29 Jul 2022 17:28:02 +0100, Mark Carver wrote:
On 29/07/2022 17:02, Woody wrote:
The solution is to tune the TV manually. If you don't know which
transmitters serve your location go the wolfbane.com
No don't do that. Wolfblane is about 5 years out of date !! Stiil
quoting all the pre B700 clearance allocations.
Use this
https://www.freeview.co.uk/corporate/detailed-transmitter-information
I tried Wolfbane and couldn't get the site (DNS problem, possibly due to
poor signal) and ended up using that site.
I don't think the problem was using a poorer transmitter because I didn't even see the main BBC and ITV channels.
Cheers
Dave R
Last time we were there (month or so back) we did get to see most channels although the quality was patchy.
On 30/07/2022 11:39, David wrote:
On Fri, 29 Jul 2022 17:28:02 +0100, Mark Carver wrote:What (if any) channels are at Ch 800 and above ?
On 29/07/2022 17:02, Woody wrote:I tried Wolfbane and couldn't get the site (DNS problem, possibly due
The solution is to tune the TV manually. If you don't know whichNo don't do that. Wolfblane is about 5 years out of date !! Stiil
transmitters serve your location go the wolfbane.com
quoting all the pre B700 clearance allocations.
Use this
https://www.freeview.co.uk/corporate/detailed-transmitter-information
to poor signal) and ended up using that site.
I don't think the problem was using a poorer transmitter because I
didn't even see the main BBC and ITV channels.
On 30/07/2022 14:41, David wrote:
Last time we were there (month or so back) we did get to see most
channels although the quality was patchy.
Marginal reception can be affected by (for instance) trees coming into
full leaf. And field strength will vary depending exactly where you are
on the... err... field. For instance, when I camp at Usha Gap on the
field near the river I know to go to the far end because the signal is
much better. When I camp at Fylingthorpe I know not to camp near the
barn. At Chatsworth it's very hit and miss because of the trees.
Bill
On 29/07/2022 21:45, Pete Forman wrote:
David <wibble@btinternet.com> writes:The position on the van roof won't make any difference. He'll have to go
I am contemplating having a "proper" aerial installed which will
require a location with enough depth to take the pole when retracted.
Cutting another hole in the roof, of course.
You could try out alternative aerials in free-standing experiments
before cutting holes.
for a place where the retracted mast won't be in the way. The corner of
the shower/lavatory is commonly used.
Best to not mount the aerial too near the edge of the roof though
because of possible damage by overhanding branches from the verges.
Bill
Do you know if this same aerial is used for the car radio, and fm and dab etc as well. Having one system as broad band as that sounds like a recipe
for disaster.
I don't think the problem was using a poorer transmitter because I didn't even see the main BBC and ITV channels.
On 30/07/2022 11:39, David wrote:
On Fri, 29 Jul 2022 17:28:02 +0100, Mark Carver wrote:
On 29/07/2022 17:02, Woody wrote:
The solution is to tune the TV manually. If you don't know which
transmitters serve your location go the wolfbane.com
No don't do that. Wolfblane is about 5 years out of date !! Stiil
quoting all the pre B700 clearance allocations.
Use this
https://www.freeview.co.uk/corporate/detailed-transmitter-information
I tried Wolfbane and couldn't get the site (DNS problem, possibly due to
poor signal) and ended up using that site.
I don't think the problem was using a poorer transmitter because I didn't
even see the main BBC and ITV channels.
Cheers
Dave R
You want to get a directional aerial. Use the local aerials to find out
which way to point it and which polarisation. Try it first with minimum amplifier gain or no amp in circuit.
Here are a few bits from a 2019 article:
Very basic aerials
One of life’s rules says that the more effort you put in the better will
be the result, and this really does apply to aerials on mobile homes.
The spectrum runs from set-top aerials (instant installation; low cost;
very poor results except in good reception areas) up to large outside
aerials (laborious installation; high cost; generally very good results).
If television is very low on your camping priorities, you can use a
small set-top aerial and enough cable to reach to the van window.
Although TV signals will enter a metal-bodied vehicle, reception is
usually much better with the aerial near the window that faces the transmitter, as long as it isn’t metalised glass or has a metalised sunscreen film. The best set-top aerials are the log-periodic ones, such
as the £19 Antiference Silver Sensor (not the one with the loop).
Aerials with built-in amplifiers can sometimes help a little, but they
are not usually worth the extra cost. Expensive elaborate-looking
set-top aerials are a complete waste of locker space and money.
Directional or omni?
Moving rapidly on to better reception solutions, let’s look at ‘proper’ outdoor aerials. You might assume that all an aerial has to do is
receive signals, but a really effective one will be directional,
receiving from one direction only and rejecting everything else.
The drawback to this, for mobile use, is that the aerial can’t be fixed rigidly on the roof and forgotten because it has to be pointed in the
right direction at every stop. So the big decision is whether to go for
the convenience of an ‘omnidirectional’ (non-directional) aerial, which is normally fixed to the roof, or to use a directional one, which
normally needs a mast of some sort.
An ‘omni’ cannot discriminate between the signal and interference, so a directional aerial can work much better. But omnis are ‘fit and forget’ – a massive plus. There’s no faffing around with the aerial because there’s nothing to faff with. You simply turn the telly on, tune it in,
and hope for the best. For those who move camp every day and feel that setting up even a simple directional aerial would be too much trouble,
an omni on the roof could be the solution.
Many omnis come with an amplifier, or ‘booster’ built in, and these amps can provide a limited but possibly worthwhile improvement. If you have a caravan or boat in which the (inaccessible) aerial cable has been
installed by the builder, you can bet your life it will be poor quality
cable that loses a lot of signal, in which case an amplifier at the
aerial (not behind the telly) can work wonders.
Directional aerials
Omnis will really only work in medium and strong reception areas. If you
want to be able to get decent reception wherever the locals can, then
you will have to use a directional aerial. The aerial also needs to be adjustable for polarisation, which is simply whether the rods need to be horizontal or vertical.
The simplest installations have telescopic masts of some sort that fit
into permanent brackets on the van. Look at the Image 420 aerial and any
of the Vision Plus masts, both from Grade UK. Also see Maxview’s wide
range of caravan aerials and masts.
The best type of aerial to fix on your mast is the log-periodic. These
are compact, wideband, highly directional, and need no assembling. A log-periodic plus a masthead amplifier is a very efficient solution. The worst aerials are the complicated ones with rods sticking out in all directions. These look impressive but the performance is disappointing
and they are impractical for mobile use. The need to repeatedly assemble
and dismantle is a chore and usually ends up with something breaking.
Adjustable roof-mounted aerials
As you will have gathered, mast-mounted aerials require you to put your cagoule on and brave the rain in order to adjust the aerial while ’er indoors shouts 'Better, better, back a bit!' The solution comes in the
form of the permanently roof-mounted directional aerial that can be
adjusted from inside the van or boat. The undoubted leader here is the
Status 500 series range, which allows you to raise and rotate the aerial
and alter the polarisation from inside the vehicle. Believe me this is
so much better than going out in the wet! You won’t begrudge that £135
at all!
Masthead amplifiers
Mast-mounted directional aerials used in weak signal areas will benefit significantly from the addition of an amplifier fitted right next to the aerial. Near the TV set is no good, unless it has a very insensitive
tuner. The gain figure should be low; no more than 16dB. The amp is
powered via the cable from a small mains power unit near the TV set. The
amp boosts the signal to compensate for the losses on the cable.
Consider the Proception PROMHD11M, the Labgear LMA 113F, and the
Antiference UXF1-15. Suppliers include Screwfix, CPC, and ATV Sheffield. Cheap imported amplifiers from internet suppliers are likely to disappoint.
On Sat, 30 Jul 2022 12:56:33 +0100, Woody wrote:
On Sat 30/07/2022 11:58, David wrote:Com5=45 Com6=39 Some HD TVs
On Fri, 29 Jul 2022 17:02:21 +0100, Woody wrote:
On Fri 29/07/2022 15:48, David wrote:
On Fri, 29 Jul 2022 13:46:02 +0100, David Woolley wrote:OK, lets go through this in depth.
On 29/07/2022 13:36, David wrote:
I have a signal strength meter which has worked well in the past, >>>>>>> and this is showing a strong signal.
Very strong at maximum amplification.
However the stations received don't match the signal strength (if >>>>>>> you see what I mean).
You need to measure signal to noise ratio, not signal strength.
That is something that most modern TVs will tell you, for digital
multiplexes, but not something that a simple meter will tell you, as >>>>>> you need to work out what part of the input represents signal, and >>>>>> you really need to recover the signal to do that. Even then you
will probably only get good readings if the signal is, at least
somewhat, usable.
What's probably happening, in your case, is that you have a very
poor signal to noise ratio. Amplifying it will increase both signal >>>>>> and noise by the same amount and also add some of its own noise,
making the resulting signal to noise ratio worse.
(Amplifying can sometimes help, if the TV input stage is noisy, and >>>>>> the amplifier input stage less noisy.)
Excessive amplification will overload the TV and create distortion >>>>>> products which also degrade the signal.
I am guessing that I have a high noise to signal ratio, but I'm not
sure where the noise is coming from.
Could be the aerial or could be the amplifier itself.
I think that I can bypass the amplifier (not just switch it off) and >>>>> see how that goes.
I will also tinker with the TV to see if it gives any signal quality >>>>> information.
Firstly the 'mushroom' type are dual polarity and usually very
effective - indeed the Vision 300 series of the old days were often
better than the directionals of that time.
Second: establish whether the amp is in the head or inside the vehicle >>>> -
my guess would be the latter - and that all is wired up correctly
including supply (I joke - not!) It is easier to replace the amp if it >>>> is inside the vehicle rather than in the aerial.
The amp is on the wall inside a cupboard just below the place where the
TV aerial is installed on the roof.
That is how I can turn the amplifier up and down to see the change in
signal strength.
I assume that it is wired correctly because it seems to work fine on
our drive.
I assume the OP has tuned the TV but auto or manual? If auto, did the
TV offer a region at the end of the tuning cycle?
Tuned auto, but there was no regional question at the end.
I don't recall seeing this when using the TV around the country in the
caravan, but perhaps if there is only one transmitter visible to the
TV, and not several, there is no need to ask which one to use.
The fact that the signal strength meter - which by definition will be
wideband - is showing end-stopping strength suggests that the TV is on >>>> the wrong transmitter. This can happen if both a relay and a main
station provide coverage and both provide the same region. It happens
because TVs <always> start tuning from the lowest channel and the
higher channel signal could be providing the strong signal that the
meter is showing. Theoretically the TV should select the stronger
signal but not always.
There is the possibility of repeaters from the coast being seen during
tuning, but virtually no channels are being found so I am assuming that
no viable signal has been found for most channels.
Channel 25 was the lowest number found.
I assume repeaters only carry a subset, but also these would include
the main BBC and ITV channels.
The postcode is NR12 8RX if anyone fancies looking it up for signal and
transmitter information.
The solution is to tune the TV manually.
I am assuming that this will let you pick your transmitter from several
competing ones.
In this case I don't think I have this problem.
I will bear manual tuning in mind if I hit similar problems in the
future.
I think I should practice at home to see what options it offers.
So far I haven't been able to find anything on the TV to display signal
strength and quality.
My memories of such features seem to be of satellite tuners but perhaps
I haven't found the menu option or this TV doesn't offer it.
transmitters serve your location go the wolfbane.com and select UK
digital TV reception predictor. Give your location postcode and a
aerial height of 4m, select Distant and hit enter. You will get a
table showing the serving transmitters for your location which
includes the channels used on that station, estimated signal strength, >>>> direction, polarity. It should be obvious which transmitter to use.
Then start over by tuning the TV manually - if it will offer you that
option.
Please come back here an let us know how you get on.
As stated elsewhere, I tried Wolfbane and failed to reach the site.
The Freeview site gave me the information.
Make and model of TV will help.
Manual tuning does not give a selection. You enter the (transmitter)
channel number and the TV tunes that channel only. You can then watch
any station carried in the mux that said channel is carrying.
Relays carry only three channels:
PSB1 (or BBC A as Freeview insist on calling it) which has all of the
BBC SD TV and a number of radio stations;
PSB2 (or D3&4) carries a selection of independent stations such as ITV
1/2/4, Ch4 and E4 and Five, 14 in all, plus some radio stations.
PSB3 (or BBC B) carries a selection of HD channels from both BBC and
independent.
Main stations also carry Com4/5/6 (or SDN, Arqiva A and Arqiva B in
Freeview-speak) which carry far to many stations to list here.
If you can find manual tuning on your TV the channels for Tacolneston
are PSB1=40 PSB2=43 PSB3=46 Com4=42
require you under manual selection to change the format to DVB-T2 else
it will not see PSB3.
There is also a local mux on channel 32 which carries Norwich local TV
and a couple of other stations..
Tacolneston is 28Km at 217deg from your postcode
It will probably be September or later before we go back there.
So for the moment the question is theoretical only with regards to Wroxham.
Samsung TV - UE22H5600AK.
A good few years old now.
With a Samsung they are all the same so its easy.
First go to auto tune and set the TV tuning with no aerial connected,
then stop it and exit almost immediately. This will wipe the existing
station memory.
<snip>
On Sat, 30 Jul 2022 19:02:15 +0100, Woody wrote:
Thanks for the comprehensive post - copied and saved.
<snip>
With a Samsung they are all the same so its easy.
First go to auto tune and set the TV tuning with no aerial connected,
then stop it and exit almost immediately. This will wipe the existing
station memory.
<snip>
I will check, but I think that if there is no aerial connected the TV
refuses to go into the tuning menu.
However I can start tuning and abort immediately which I hope will do much the same.
For signal strength/quality your instructions should work, I think, after
an auto tune which finds any stations.
I will give it a try.
if there is no aerial connected the TV
refuses to go into the tuning menu.
On 30/07/2022 19:21, David wrote:
if there is no aerial connected the TV
refuses to go into the tuning menu.
That's just not possible.
It could be that there's an impedance checker across the coax connector.
If it doesn't see what it's supposed to see, it reports "no aerial" or something like that, and refuses to go to the tuning menu as there'd be
no point.
On 31/07/2022 08:27, Jeff Layman wrote:
It could be that there's an impedance checker across the coax
connector.
If it doesn't see what it's supposed to see, it reports "no aerial" or
something like that, and refuses to go to the tuning menu as there'd be
no point.
Does it display a message that no antenna connected or just not do
anything?
If it does not display a message then why would the manufacturer bother?
They normally do not spend any more than they have to.
On Sun, 31 Jul 2022 09:44:58 +0100, MB wrote:
On 31/07/2022 08:27, Jeff Layman wrote:
It could be that there's an impedance checker across the coax
connector.
If it doesn't see what it's supposed to see, it reports "no aerial" or
something like that, and refuses to go to the tuning menu as there'd
be no point.
Does it display a message that no antenna connected or just not do
anything?
If it does not display a message then why would the manufacturer
bother?
They normally do not spend any more than they have to.
I will check again, but I believe that the menu item was greyed out and
not selectable.
On Sun, 31 Jul 2022 09:44:58 +0100, MB wrote:
On 31/07/2022 08:27, Jeff Layman wrote:
It could be that there's an impedance checker across the coax
connector.
If it doesn't see what it's supposed to see, it reports "no aerial" or
something like that, and refuses to go to the tuning menu as there'd be
no point.
Does it display a message that no antenna connected or just not do
anything?
If it does not display a message then why would the manufacturer bother?
They normally do not spend any more than they have to.
I will check again, but I believe that the menu item was greyed out and
not selectable.
Cheers
Dave R
I will check again, but I believe that the menu item was greyed out and
not selectable.
It could be that there's an impedance checker across the coax connector.
If it doesn't see what it's supposed to see, it reports "no aerial" or something like that, and refuses to go to the tuning menu as there'd be
no point.
Of perhaps more importance, though, is that if it did go to the tuning
menu without an aerial, it could wipe out the OP's current channel
setup. I know that is sometimes necessary if there's been a tuning mess
and you find missing or umpteen "8xx" channels, and require a "clean"
retune. For the OP's TV, if it does prevent tuning with no aerial, there would have to be a way to override that to get the clean retune.
It's very unlikely, and I don't know of a TV which does it, but it /is/ possible (BICBW...).
--
On Sun, 31 Jul 2022 13:44:26 +0000, David wrote:
On Sun, 31 Jul 2022 09:44:58 +0100, MB wrote:
On 31/07/2022 08:27, Jeff Layman wrote:
It could be that there's an impedance checker across the coax
connector.
If it doesn't see what it's supposed to see, it reports "no aerial" or >>>> something like that, and refuses to go to the tuning menu as there'd
be no point.
Does it display a message that no antenna connected or just not do
anything?
If it does not display a message then why would the manufacturer
bother?
They normally do not spend any more than they have to.
I will check again, but I believe that the menu item was greyed out and
not selectable.
Unable to replicate at the moment.
However I am pretty sure that I saw it.
Could have pressed another button that changed things.
The Samsung TVs seem to be set up to cater for cable connections
(presumably with an extra plug in box) so perhaps I could have selected
that as the source.
Not convincing myself, though.
Ah, well.
| Sysop: | Keyop |
|---|---|
| Location: | Huddersfield, West Yorkshire, UK |
| Users: | 297 |
| Nodes: | 16 (2 / 14) |
| Uptime: | 11:00:38 |
| Calls: | 6,666 |
| Files: | 12,213 |
| Messages: | 5,336,375 |