Also, I see the recording dates from 1970. I thought the main
channels moved to colour in 1969, so why was it not recorded in
colour, or maybe it was in colour with the tape found in the attic a
B&W archive?
How do they 'colourise' a black and white recording?
Scott wrote:
How do they 'colourise' a black and white recording?
If the B&W film recording is off-air from a PAL transmission, the chroma-dots >can be used to reconstruct the colours
<https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Colour_recovery>
Andy Burns wrote:
<https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Colour_recovery>
Thanks, but in this case the BBC report refers to 'colourisation'
rather than colour recovery. Maybe the terminology is wrong, but I
wonder how you would colourise a pure black and white recording.
Thanks, but in this case the BBC report refers to 'colourisation'
rather than colour recovery. Maybe the terminology is wrong, but I
wonder how you would colourise a pure black and white recording.
Looks like Mr Russell's work again.
This from 3 years ago
"Morecambe & Wise restored using BBC BASIC!" >https://stardot.org.uk/forums/viewtopic.php?f=41&t=16161
On 23/12/2021 in message <j2jet2Fp9a8U1@mid.individual.net> Adrian
Caspersz wrote:
Looks like Mr Russell's work again.
This from 3 years ago
"Morecambe & Wise restored using BBC BASIC!"
https://stardot.org.uk/forums/viewtopic.php?f=41&t=16161
I've just dug my 4 x BBC Micros our of the lost preparatory to moving!
Does anybody in here use Russells' BBC Basic on a PC? I am tempted.
https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/entertainment-arts-59599741
How do they 'colourise' a black and white recording? Is this a manual process or is it automated. I assume you would need to tell the
computer what each colour is supposed to be. How would the operator
know?
I think I read once (with Dad's Army) that the black and white
recording contained hidden colour information for the export version.
Could this have happened here too?
Also, I see the recording dates from 1970. I thought the main
channels moved to colour in 1969, so why was it not recorded in
colour, or maybe it was in colour with the tape found in the attic a
B&W archive?
On 23/12/2021 13:19, Scott wrote:
https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/entertainment-arts-59599741
How do they 'colourise' a black and white recording? Is this a manual
process or is it automated. I assume you would need to tell the
computer what each colour is supposed to be. How would the operator
know?
I think I read once (with Dad's Army) that the black and white
recording contained hidden colour information for the export version.
Could this have happened here too?
Also, I see the recording dates from 1970. I thought the main
channels moved to colour in 1969, so why was it not recorded in
colour, or maybe it was in colour with the tape found in the attic a
B&W archive?
This was on the main news last night and today. It was previewed in the >Christmas Radio Times available a couple of weeks ago, so what makes it
news now rather than then? Strangely, though, the RT mentions it as only >being "restored" - there is no mention of colourising. So it's a bit >ambiguous as to whether the colour was there and has been restored, or >whether it was just B/W and that required restoration, and the colour
has been added.
Scott wrote:
How do they 'colourise' a black and white recording?If the B&W film recording is off-air from a PAL transmission, the chroma-dots can be used to reconstruct the colours
<https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Colour_recovery>
On Thu, 23 Dec 2021 16:39:53 +0000, Jeff Layman
<jmlayman@invalid.invalid> wrote:
On 23/12/2021 13:19, Scott wrote:
https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/entertainment-arts-59599741
How do they 'colourise' a black and white recording? Is this a manual
process or is it automated. I assume you would need to tell the
computer what each colour is supposed to be. How would the operator
know?
I think I read once (with Dad's Army) that the black and white
recording contained hidden colour information for the export version.
Could this have happened here too?
Also, I see the recording dates from 1970. I thought the main
channels moved to colour in 1969, so why was it not recorded in
colour, or maybe it was in colour with the tape found in the attic a
B&W archive?
This was on the main news last night and today. It was previewed in the >Christmas Radio Times available a couple of weeks ago, so what makes it >news now rather than then? Strangely, though, the RT mentions it as only >being "restored" - there is no mention of colourising. So it's a bit >ambiguous as to whether the colour was there and has been restored, or >whether it was just B/W and that required restoration, and the colour
has been added.
The BBC article refers to "films" being discovered in "canisters" but technical terminology is routinely so sloppily used these days that
it's hard to say what it means. A videotape in a case might be
described as a film in a canister by someone who hasn't a clue.
The BBC article refers to "films" being discovered in "canisters" but technical terminology is routinely so sloppily used these days that
it's hard to say what it means. A videotape in a case might be
described as a film in a canister by someone who hasn't a clue.
On Thu, 23 Dec 2021 16:39:53 +0000, Jeff Layman
<jmlayman@invalid.invalid> wrote:
On 23/12/2021 13:19, Scott wrote:
https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/entertainment-arts-59599741
How do they 'colourise' a black and white recording? Is this a manual
process or is it automated. I assume you would need to tell the
computer what each colour is supposed to be. How would the operator
know?
I think I read once (with Dad's Army) that the black and white
recording contained hidden colour information for the export version.
Could this have happened here too?
Also, I see the recording dates from 1970. I thought the main
channels moved to colour in 1969, so why was it not recorded in
colour, or maybe it was in colour with the tape found in the attic a
B&W archive?
This was on the main news last night and today. It was previewed in the
Christmas Radio Times available a couple of weeks ago, so what makes it
news now rather than then? Strangely, though, the RT mentions it as only
being "restored" - there is no mention of colourising. So it's a bit
ambiguous as to whether the colour was there and has been restored, or
whether it was just B/W and that required restoration, and the colour
has been added.
The BBC article refers to "films" being discovered in "canisters" but technical terminology is routinely so sloppily used these days that
it's hard to say what it means. A videotape in a case might be
described as a film in a canister by someone who hasn't a clue.
On 23/12/2021 16:52, Roderick Stewart wrote:
On Thu, 23 Dec 2021 16:39:53 +0000, Jeff Layman
<jmlayman@invalid.invalid> wrote:
On 23/12/2021 13:19, Scott wrote:
https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/entertainment-arts-59599741
How do they 'colourise' a black and white recording? Is this a manual >>>> process or is it automated. I assume you would need to tell the
computer what each colour is supposed to be. How would the operator
know?
I think I read once (with Dad's Army) that the black and white
recording contained hidden colour information for the export version.
Could this have happened here too?
Also, I see the recording dates from 1970. I thought the main
channels moved to colour in 1969, so why was it not recorded in
colour, or maybe it was in colour with the tape found in the attic a
B&W archive?
This was on the main news last night and today. It was previewed in the
Christmas Radio Times available a couple of weeks ago, so what makes it
news now rather than then? Strangely, though, the RT mentions it as only >>> being "restored" - there is no mention of colourising. So it's a bit
ambiguous as to whether the colour was there and has been restored, or
whether it was just B/W and that required restoration, and the colour
has been added.
The BBC article refers to "films" being discovered in "canisters" but
technical terminology is routinely so sloppily used these days that
it's hard to say what it means. A videotape in a case might be
described as a film in a canister by someone who hasn't a clue.
Yes, the BBC article is totally confused as to what was inside the can! It refers to "the footage..." which suggests a film (I've never heard of
"tape footage". Was it ever used?). Then says "Dating from 1970, the 45-minute episode had originally been wiped by the BBC so the expensive
tape could be re-used", which states it was a tape. It continues "His
agent sent them off to be examined and the films inside them were checked
by experts", so back to films. Finally, it says "...these are important pieces from the golden era of television so to find something that was presumed wiped,..." which is back to tape!
The BBC programme on Christmas day is titled "The Morecambe and Wise Show 1970: the Lost Tape". The article in the RT about Gary Morecambe's
discovery in 2020 says that he found a stack of reels (sic - there is no mention of cans), but the BBC programme entry for 7.45 says ".. it was discovered in an unmarked can"!
As a matter of interest, were colour film recordings of programmes ever
made and later transmitted, or was film recording always B&W?
As a matter of interest, were colour film recordings of
programmes ever made and later transmitted, or was film recording
always B&W?
In article <memo.20211223194242.13100A@magsys.adsl.magsys.co.uk>, Angus >Robertson - Magenta Systems Ltd <angus@magsys.co.uk> wrote:
As a matter of interest, were colour film recordings of programmes
ever made and later transmitted, or was film recording always B&W?
I worked at TVC in the early seventies, and I recall it was all
monochrome film recording for export to other countries that did not even
have 2in quad tape, never mind colour.
2in quad tape was so expensive at the time and the machines horrendously
expensive, film was easier for export.
I think Rank Video had the first decent colour film recorder a few years
later.
Techicolor made colour films from tapes
As a matter of interest, were colour film recordings of programmes
ever made and later transmitted, or was film recording always B&W?
I worked at TVC in the early seventies, and I recall it was all
monochrome film recording for export to other countries that did not even have 2in quad tape, never mind colour.
2in quad tape was so expensive at the time and the machines horrendously expensive, film was easier for export.
I think Rank Video had the first decent colour film recorder a few years later.
On 23/12/2021 16:52, Roderick Stewart wrote:
On Thu, 23 Dec 2021 16:39:53 +0000, Jeff Layman
<jmlayman@invalid.invalid> wrote:
On 23/12/2021 13:19, Scott wrote:
https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/entertainment-arts-59599741
How do they 'colourise' a black and white recording? Is this a manual >>> process or is it automated. I assume you would need to tell the
computer what each colour is supposed to be. How would the operator
know?
I think I read once (with Dad's Army) that the black and white
recording contained hidden colour information for the export version.
Could this have happened here too?
Also, I see the recording dates from 1970. I thought the main
channels moved to colour in 1969, so why was it not recorded in
colour, or maybe it was in colour with the tape found in the attic a
B&W archive?
This was on the main news last night and today. It was previewed in
the Christmas Radio Times available a couple of weeks ago, so what
makes it news now rather than then? Strangely, though, the RT mentions
it as only being "restored" - there is no mention of colourising. So
it's a bit ambiguous as to whether the colour was there and has been
restored, or whether it was just B/W and that required restoration,
and the colour has been added.
The BBC article refers to "films" being discovered in "canisters" but technical terminology is routinely so sloppily used these days that
it's hard to say what it means. A videotape in a case might be
described as a film in a canister by someone who hasn't a clue.
Yes, the BBC article is totally confused as to what was inside the can!
It refers to "the footage..." which suggests a film (I've never heard of "tape footage". Was it ever used?). Then says "Dating from 1970, the 45-minute episode had originally been wiped by the BBC so the expensive
tape could be re-used", which states it was a tape.
It continues "His
agent sent them off to be examined and the films inside them were
checked by experts", so back to films. Finally, it says "...these are important pieces from the golden era of television so to find something
that was presumed wiped,..." which is back to tape!
The BBC programme on Christmas day is titled "The Morecambe and Wise
Show 1970: the Lost Tape". The article in the RT about Gary Morecambe's discovery in 2020 says that he found a stack of reels (sic - there is no mention of cans), but the BBC programme entry for 7.45 says ".. it was discovered in an unmarked can"!
On Thu, 23 Dec 2021 18:50:02 +0000, NY wrote:
As a matter of interest, were colour film recordings of programmes ever
made and later transmitted, or was film recording always B&W?
A company in London called CFS (Colour Film Services) did film
telerecording in colour using optically combined images from red green and blue crts. I heard the quality was excellent.
"The Other John" <nomail@home.org> wrote in message news:sq2jlh$8h4$1@dont-email.me...
On Thu, 23 Dec 2021 18:50:02 +0000, NY wrote:
As a matter of interest, were colour film recordings of programmes ever
made and later transmitted, or was film recording always B&W?
A company in London called CFS (Colour Film Services) did film
telerecording in colour using optically combined images from red green
and
blue crts. I heard the quality was excellent.
Did they use separate CRTs for the three colours, rather than one shadow
mask CRT, to avoid adding a shadow mash pattern to the image which could produce moiré fringing when the film was later telecined and displayed on other shadow mask CRTs?
"NY" <me@privacy.invalid> wrote in message
news:sq31i0$clu$1@dont-email.me...
"The Other John" <nomail@home.org> wrote in message
news:sq2jlh$8h4$1@dont-email.me...
On Thu, 23 Dec 2021 18:50:02 +0000, NY wrote:
As a matter of interest, were colour film recordings of programmes ever >>>> made and later transmitted, or was film recording always B&W?
A company in London called CFS (Colour Film Services) did film
telerecording in colour using optically combined images from red
green and
blue crts. I heard the quality was excellent.
Did they use separate CRTs for the three colours, rather than one
shadow mask CRT, to avoid adding a shadow mash pattern to the image
which could produce moiré fringing when the film was later telecined
and displayed on other shadow mask CRTs?
Come to think of it, I'm surprised that the image of the raster of a monochrome screen on a film recording doesn't produce moiré if there is
any vertical and horizontal jitter in the precise position of each film
frame as it is scanned by the telecine.
I was watching the BBC Four programme tonight about the 1963 Big Freeze
and that was obviously a (B&W) film recording of the original
transmission (there was all sorts of dirt and creases on the film!). And there was a strange mottled pattern which seemed to be constant for any
given shot (visible as being static when the camera panned) but which
seemed to vary from one film insert to another; it was less noticeable
for studio shots. And there was banding on areas that changed gradually
from dark to light, where all of one region was a single tone and then
there was a noticeable jump to another brightness in neighbouring part
of the picture. This was apparent at all brightnesses, and was far more noticeable than the normal banding that you get with digital TV which
has 256 levels of grey (or of each primary colour), because that is only noticeable on very dark tones (eg an illuminated subject against an
all-black background).
Is all of that normal for film recordings that are then telecined?
Did film recording of a programme that had filmed inserts take any precautions to make sure that the change from one film frame to the next
in the film recording occurred in sync with the film insert as it was originally telecined for the programme, rather than happening to be one
field adrift?
I saw several occasions where there was double-imaging on
movement, which suggested that the two were not always in sync: a single frame of original film insert comprised an even and an odd field which
both show the motion at the same instant (when the film camera shutter opened) but then the film recording of this has combined the even field
of one frame with the odd field of the next one, so you got two images
taken at different instants.
Not every customer would have had colour capapble VCRs. Film might explain the problems with colour after 50 years.
Would the BBC not want to do it in house if it was only for
archive purposes? I assume monochrome was cheaper as cost was
clearly an issue.
https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/entertainment-arts-59599741
How do they 'colourise' a black and white recording? Is this a manual process or is it automated. I assume you would need to tell the
computer what each colour is supposed to be. How would the operator
know?
I think I read once (with Dad's Army) that the black and white
recording contained hidden colour information for the export version.
Could this have happened here too?
Also, I see the recording dates from 1970. I thought the main
channels moved to colour in 1969, so why was it not recorded in
colour, or maybe it was in colour with the tape found in the attic a
B&W archive?
On 23/12/2021 13:19, Scott wrote:
Also, I see the recording dates from 1970. I thought the main
channels moved to colour in 1969, so why was it not recorded in
colour, or maybe it was in colour with the tape found in the attic a
B&W archive?
I posted a link to a PDF of Pawley about a week ago, you should find
plenty of dates for introduction of colour at the BBC in there.
Scott wrote:
How do they 'colourise' a black and white recording?
If the B&W film recording is off-air from a PAL transmission, the
chroma-dots can be used to reconstruct the colours
<https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Colour_recovery>
On 23/12/2021 13:47, Scott wrote:
Thanks, but in this case the BBC report refers to 'colourisation'
rather than colour recovery. Maybe the terminology is wrong, but I
wonder how you would colourise a pure black and white recording.
https://colour-recovery.fandom.com/wiki
https://colour-recovery.fandom.com/wiki/Processed_programmes
Looks like Mr Russell's work again.
This from 3 years ago
"Morecambe & Wise restored using BBC BASIC!" https://stardot.org.uk/forums/viewtopic.php?f=41&t=16161
--
Adrian C
On 23/12/2021 17:55, charles wrote:
Not every customer would have had colour capapble VCRs. Film might
explain
the problems with colour after 50 years.
I can't remember ever seeing a non-colour video recorder in a private
house.
Bill
On 23/12/2021 16:52, Roderick Stewart wrote:
On Thu, 23 Dec 2021 16:39:53 +0000, Jeff Layman
<jmlayman@invalid.invalid> wrote:
On 23/12/2021 13:19, Scott wrote:
https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/entertainment-arts-59599741
How do they 'colourise' a black and white recording? Is this a manual >>>> process or is it automated. I assume you would need to tell the
computer what each colour is supposed to be. How would the operator
know?
I think I read once (with Dad's Army) that the black and white
recording contained hidden colour information for the export version.
Could this have happened here too?
Also, I see the recording dates from 1970. I thought the main
channels moved to colour in 1969, so why was it not recorded in
colour, or maybe it was in colour with the tape found in the attic a
B&W archive?
This was on the main news last night and today. It was previewed in the
Christmas Radio Times available a couple of weeks ago, so what makes it
news now rather than then? Strangely, though, the RT mentions it as only >>> being "restored" - there is no mention of colourising. So it's a bit
ambiguous as to whether the colour was there and has been restored, or
whether it was just B/W and that required restoration, and the colour
has been added.
The BBC article refers to "films" being discovered in "canisters" but
technical terminology is routinely so sloppily used these days that
it's hard to say what it means. A videotape in a case might be
described as a film in a canister by someone who hasn't a clue.
Yes, the BBC article is totally confused as to what was inside the can! It refers to "the footage..." which suggests a film (I've never heard of
"tape footage". Was it ever used?). Then says "Dating from 1970, the 45-minute episode had originally been wiped by the BBC so the expensive
tape could be re-used", which states it was a tape. It continues "His
agent sent them off to be examined and the films inside them were checked
by experts", so back to films. Finally, it says "...these are important pieces from the golden era of television so to find something that was presumed wiped,..." which is back to tape!
The BBC programme on Christmas day is titled "The Morecambe and Wise Show 1970: the Lost Tape". The article in the RT about Gary Morecambe's
discovery in 2020 says that he found a stack of reels (sic - there is no mention of cans), but the BBC programme entry for 7.45 says ".. it was discovered in an unmarked can"!
--
Jeff
As a matter of interest, were colour film recordings of
programmes ever made and later transmitted, or was film recording
always B&W?
I worked at TVC in the early seventies, and I recall it was all monochrome film
recording for export to other countries that did not even have 2in quad
tape,
never mind colour.
2in quad tape was so expensive at the time and the machines horrendously expensive, film was easier for export.
I think Rank Video had the first decent colour film recorder a few years later.
Angus
On Thu, 23 Dec 2021 20:41:52 +0000 (GMT), charles
<charles@candehope.me.uk> wrote:
In article <memo.20211223194242.13100A@magsys.adsl.magsys.co.uk>, Angus >>Robertson - Magenta Systems Ltd <angus@magsys.co.uk> wrote:
As a matter of interest, were colour film recordings of programmes
ever made and later transmitted, or was film recording always B&W?
I worked at TVC in the early seventies, and I recall it was all
monochrome film recording for export to other countries that did not
even
have 2in quad tape, never mind colour.
2in quad tape was so expensive at the time and the machines horrendously >>> expensive, film was easier for export.
I think Rank Video had the first decent colour film recorder a few years >>> later.
Techicolor made colour films from tapes
Would the BBC not want to do it in house if it was only for archive
purposes? I assume monochrome was cheaper as cost was clearly an
issue.
On 23/12/2021 17:55, charles wrote:
Not every customer would have had colour capapble VCRs. Film might explain >> the problems with colour after 50 years.
I can't remember ever seeing a non-colour video recorder in a private house.
Bill
Would the BBC not want to do it in house if it was only for
archive purposes? I assume monochrome was cheaper as cost was
clearly an issue.
The BBC had been using monochrome film recorders for 20 years until 2in
quad
video tape became available, there was never a need to buy any colour systems.
Television Centre was built with all these film recorders in the basement under
the fountain, most were replaced by quad tape, but a few kept for overseas distribution.
Colour film recording was always far more complicated that monochrome, you can
not point a camera at large curved shadow mask CRT, it needed separate exposures of the film for each colour from flat monochrome CRTs or better technology.
Angus
Funny to see how quickly tech has changed.
I had one of the early Philips 1500 machines and we thought
they were amazing
On 23/12/2021 17:55, charles wrote:
Not every customer would have had colour capapble VCRs. Film might
explain the problems with colour after 50 years.
I can't remember ever seeing a non-colour video recorder in a private
house.
Bill
On 23/12/2021 17:55, charles wrote:
Not every customer would have had colour capapble VCRs. Film might explain >> the problems with colour after 50 years.
I can't remember ever seeing a non-colour video recorder in a private house.
Bill
Come to think of it, I'm surprised that the image of the raster of a monochrome screen on a film recording doesn't produce moiré if there is
any vertical and horizontal jitter in the precise position of each film
frame as it is scanned by the telecine.
Did they use separate CRTs for the three colours, rather than one shadow
mask CRT, to avoid adding a shadow mash pattern to the image which could produce moiré fringing when the film was later telecined and displayed
on other shadow mask CRTs?
That would seem to be a daft thing to do if they had been recorded on tape
to start with. Some very old recordings from that time will still play as >long as somebody still has the working machines somewhere.
Brian
On Fri, 24 Dec 2021 08:24:54 -0000, "Brian Gaff \(Sofa\)" <briang1@blueyonder.co.uk> wrote:
That would seem to be a daft thing to do if they had been recorded on tape >>to start with. Some very old recordings from that time will still play as >>long as somebody still has the working machines somewhere.
I think it was the cost of the tape that was prohibitive.
On 23/12/2021 17:55, charles wrote:
Not every customer would have had colour capapble VCRs. Film might
explain the problems with colour after 50 years.
I can't remember ever seeing a non-colour video recorder in a private
house.
On Fri, 24 Dec 2021 01:19:13 +0000, williamwright
<wrightsaerials@f2s.com> wrote:
On 23/12/2021 17:55, charles wrote:
Not every customer would have had colour capapble VCRs. Film might explain >>> the problems with colour after 50 years.
I can't remember ever seeing a non-colour video recorder in a private house. >>
Bill
They did exist. I had a secondhand one. It was quite compact but took separate spools of half inch tapes that you had to thread manually.
They were used in educational or other professional settings mostly,
because they were expensive to buy new, but it's possible that a few
rich individuals such as entertainers might have their own as it would
be helpful to check their own performance.
On 24/12/2021 01:19, williamwright wrote:
On 23/12/2021 17:55, charles wrote:
Not every customer would have had colour capapble VCRs. Film might
explain
the problems with colour after 50 years.
I can't remember ever seeing a non-colour video recorder in a private
house.
Bill
The first home VCR I bought (I think it was a Grundig) had a mono/colour switch on the back and the mono position gave a slightly better picture
on my monochrome IV so I left it in that position.
I never found out if the recording on the tape was mono or colour
because I had replaced the VCR and reused the tapes before I got a
colour TV.
"JNugent" <jennings&co@fastmail.fm> wrot:
On 24/12/2021 08:51 am, Roderick Stewart wrote:
williamwright <wrightsaerials@f2s.com> wrote:
On 23/12/2021 17:55, charles wrote:
Not every customer would have had colour capapble VCRs. Film might
explain the problems with colour after 50 years.
I can't remember ever seeing a non-colour video recorder in a
private house.
They did exist. I had a secondhand one. It was quite compact but took
separate spools of half inch tapes that you had to thread manually.
They were used in educational or other professional settings mostly,
because they were expensive to buy new, but it's possible that a few
rich individuals such as entertainers might have their own as it would
be helpful to check their own performance.
Bob Monkhouse had at least one of those late 60s units.
The first time I ever saw a VTR that wasn't a huge monster in a TV
studio, it was a Sony CV-2000 https://historictech.com/product/sony-cv-2000-videocorder-c1965/ in a children's thriller series Tightrope in 1972, in which it was used to broadcast subversive messages to a group of sixth-formers who were
watching a "for schools and colleges" programme.
In the late 70s I remember seeing a VTR at the electronics lab at Leeds University and I'm sure it used 1/4" audio tape rather than the normal
1/2" tape of VHS, Betamax, V2000 and Philips N1500. By that stage, our
school had an N1500 and was about to get a couple of top-loader,
piano-key VHS machines, but the one at Leeds was supposedly "semi-professional" which presumably meant it had a slightly higher
bandwidth and maybe a timebase corrector to prevent some of the worst
faults of VHS.
On 24/12/2021 08:51 am, Roderick Stewart wrote:
On Fri, 24 Dec 2021 01:19:13 +0000, williamwright
<wrightsaerials@f2s.com> wrote:
On 23/12/2021 17:55, charles wrote:
Not every customer would have had colour capapble VCRs. Film might
explain
the problems with colour after 50 years.
I can't remember ever seeing a non-colour video recorder in a private
house.
Bill
They did exist. I had a secondhand one. It was quite compact but took
separate spools of half inch tapes that you had to thread manually.
They were used in educational or other professional settings mostly,
because they were expensive to buy new, but it's possible that a few
rich individuals such as entertainers might have their own as it would
be helpful to check their own performance.
Bob Monkhouse had at least one of those late 60s units.
In article <j2klghF1shqU1@mid.individual.net>, williamwright <wrightsaerials@f2s.com> wrote:
On 23/12/2021 17:55, charles wrote:
Not every customer would have had colour capapble VCRs. Film might
explain the problems with colour after 50 years.
I can't remember ever seeing a non-colour video recorder in a private
house.
Bill
I had a colleague who owned a Sony one for the 405 line service - that
would not have been colour.
On 24/12/2021 09:22, charles wrote:
In article <j2klghF1shqU1@mid.individual.net>, williamwright <wrightsaerials@f2s.com> wrote:
On 23/12/2021 17:55, charles wrote:
Not every customer would have had colour capapble VCRs. Film might
explain the problems with colour after 50 years.
I can't remember ever seeing a non-colour video recorder in a private
house.
Bill
I had a colleague who owned a Sony one for the 405 line service - that would not have been colour.
Good heavens! Such things were undrempt of round here.
Bill
The first home VCR I bought (I think it was a Grundig) had a mono/colour switch on the back and the mono position gave a slightly better picture
on my monochrome IV so I left it in that position.
Spot wobble was applied to the scans to make the lines touch each other to eliminate line structure.
I had a colleague who owned a Sony one for the 405 line service - thatGood heavens! Such things were undrempt of round here.
would not have been colour.
Bill
especially his name for it: "Pornograph"
On 24/12/2021 09:22, charles wrote:
In article <j2klghF1shqU1@mid.individual.net>, williamwright <wrightsaerials@f2s.com> wrote:
On 23/12/2021 17:55, charles wrote:
Not every customer would have had colour capapble VCRs. Film might
explain the problems with colour after 50 years.
I can't remember ever seeing a non-colour video recorder in a private
house.
Bill
I had a colleague who owned a Sony one for the 405 line service - that would not have been colour.
Good heavens! Such things were undrempt of round here.
Bill
You just reminded me of the first colour TV that I ever saw and it was in
405 lines. I think it was during the 1956 Radio Hobbies Exhibition at Alexandra Palace. It used a round RCA tube with top and bottom masked and three chassis on each side in a radiogram style wooden cabinet. Only
stills were transmitted (presumably from Cystal Palace) but the colour was superb.
On 24/12/2021 10:28, The Other John wrote:
Spot wobble was applied to the scans to make the lines touch each other
to
eliminate line structure.
Oh I remember spot wobble. You could adjust it.
As a child I remember dismantling an old 405-line TV (minus its tune and
EHT circuitry) that my grandpa was getting rid of. And that had loads of
pots and switches on the back - horizontal and vertical hold, H and V linearity, height, width, focus, spot wobble - in addition to the user controls for brightness, volume and tuning on the front.
I presume it was a very high frequency (compared with the line
frequency)
sine wave added to the vertical scan coils.
I've just watched this - it was very good. I did notice some irregular varying horizontal banding on yellow stage cutains, so this indicates
the source was video tape moving horizontally rather than film moving vertically.
"Dave W" <davewi11@yahoo.co.uk> wrote in message >news:0t7fsglku28fbgpoleiqhbunsbjtnmalkt@4ax.com...
I've just watched this - it was very good. I did notice some irregular
varying horizontal banding on yellow stage cutains, so this indicates
the source was video tape moving horizontally rather than film moving
vertically.
Or maybe the streaking was on the original master VT, before it was played >back to be film-recorded. I imagine that any noise/dropouts that made it
onto the film recording would then be badly decoded by the colour-recovery >software. I'll watch it some time. I looked at a bit of my recording and the >results looked pretty damn good.
"NY" <me@privacy.invalid> wrote:
"Dave W" <davewi11@yahoo.co.uk> wrote:
I've just watched this - it was very good. I did notice some irregular
varying horizontal banding on yellow stage cutains, so this indicates
the source was video tape moving horizontally rather than film moving
vertically.
Or maybe the streaking was on the original master VT, before it was played >> back to be film-recorded. I imagine that any noise/dropouts that made it
onto the film recording would then be badly decoded by the colour-recovery >> software. I'll watch it some time. I looked at a bit of my recording and the >> results looked pretty damn good.
I thought the results were good. I looked at the history and as far
as I could make out M&W was first shown on BBC2 as the UK's only
colour channel, then later shown on BBC1 for the wider audience. This suggests it was made as 625 lines. I wonder if this improves the
quality now, but I also wonder how it was shown on BBC1. Maybe the
film was used for BBC1?
On 26/12/2021 12:21 pm, Scott wrote:
"NY" <me@privacy.invalid> wrote:
"Dave W" <davewi11@yahoo.co.uk> wrote:
I've just watched this - it was very good. I did notice some irregular >>>> varying horizontal banding on yellow stage cutains, so this indicates
the source was video tape moving horizontally rather than film moving
vertically.
Or maybe the streaking was on the original master VT, before it was played >>> back to be film-recorded. I imagine that any noise/dropouts that made it >>> onto the film recording would then be badly decoded by the colour-recovery >>> software. I'll watch it some time. I looked at a bit of my recording and the
results looked pretty damn good.
I thought the results were good. I looked at the history and as far
as I could make out M&W was first shown on BBC2 as the UK's only
colour channel, then later shown on BBC1 for the wider audience. This
suggests it was made as 625 lines. I wonder if this improves the
quality now, but I also wonder how it was shown on BBC1. Maybe the
film was used for BBC1?
The recovered programme was apparently first broadcast in 1970.
On Sun, 26 Dec 2021 10:58:35 -0000, "NY" <me@privacy.invalid> wrote:
"Dave W" <davewi11@yahoo.co.uk> wrote in message >news:0t7fsglku28fbgpoleiqhbunsbjtnmalkt@4ax.com...
I've just watched this - it was very good. I did notice some irregular
varying horizontal banding on yellow stage cutains, so this indicates
the source was video tape moving horizontally rather than film moving
vertically.
Or maybe the streaking was on the original master VT, before it was played >back to be film-recorded. I imagine that any noise/dropouts that made it >onto the film recording would then be badly decoded by the colour-recovery >software. I'll watch it some time. I looked at a bit of my recording and the >results looked pretty damn good.
I thought the results were good. I looked at the history and as far
as I could make out M&W was first shown on BBC2 as the UK's only
colour channel, then later shown on BBC1 for the wider audience. This suggests it was made as 625 lines. I wonder if this improves the
quality now, but I also wonder how it was shown on BBC1. Maybe the
film was used for BBC1?
On 26/12/2021 12:21 pm, Scott wrote:
"NY" <me@privacy.invalid> wrote:
"Dave W" <davewi11@yahoo.co.uk> wrote:
I've just watched this - it was very good. I did notice some
irregular varying horizontal banding on yellow stage cutains, so this
indicates the source was video tape moving horizontally rather than
film moving vertically.
Or maybe the streaking was on the original master VT, before it was
played back to be film-recorded. I imagine that any noise/dropouts
that made it onto the film recording would then be badly decoded by
the colour-recovery software. I'll watch it some time. I looked at a
bit of my recording and the results looked pretty damn good.
I thought the results were good. I looked at the history and as far as
I could make out M&W was first shown on BBC2 as the UK's only colour channel, then later shown on BBC1 for the wider audience. This
suggests it was made as 625 lines. I wonder if this improves the
quality now, but I also wonder how it was shown on BBC1. Maybe the
film was used for BBC1?
The recovered programme was apparently first broadcast in 1970.
By then, BBC1 and ITV were being broadcast on UHF 625 lines colour
(though also still on VHF 405 lines).
I am assuming that the monochrome 405 line signal was derived on the fly
from the 625 line material.
On 26/12/2021 12:21 pm, Scott wrote:
"NY" <me@privacy.invalid> wrote:
"Dave W" <davewi11@yahoo.co.uk> wrote:
I've just watched this - it was very good. I did notice some irregular >>>> varying horizontal banding on yellow stage cutains, so this indicates
the source was video tape moving horizontally rather than film moving
vertically.
Or maybe the streaking was on the original master VT, before it was
played
back to be film-recorded. I imagine that any noise/dropouts that made it >>> onto the film recording would then be badly decoded by the
colour-recovery
software. I'll watch it some time. I looked at a bit of my recording
and the
results looked pretty damn good.
I thought the results were good. I looked at the history and as far
as I could make out M&W was first shown on BBC2 as the UK's only
colour channel, then later shown on BBC1 for the wider audience. This
suggests it was made as 625 lines. I wonder if this improves the
quality now, but I also wonder how it was shown on BBC1. Maybe the
film was used for BBC1?
The recovered programme was apparently first broadcast in 1970.
By then, BBC1 and ITVÂ were being broadcast on UHF 625 lines colour
(though also still on VHF 405 lines).
I am assuming that the monochrome 405 line signal was derived on the fly
from the 625 line material.
On Sun, 26 Dec 2021 10:58:35 -0000, "NY" <me@privacy.invalid> wrote:
"Dave W" <davewi11@yahoo.co.uk> wrote in message >>news:0t7fsglku28fbgpoleiqhbunsbjtnmalkt@4ax.com...
I've just watched this - it was very good. I did notice some irregular
varying horizontal banding on yellow stage cutains, so this indicates
the source was video tape moving horizontally rather than film moving
vertically.
Or maybe the streaking was on the original master VT, before it was played >>back to be film-recorded. I imagine that any noise/dropouts that made it >>onto the film recording would then be badly decoded by the colour-recovery >>software. I'll watch it some time. I looked at a bit of my recording and >>the
results looked pretty damn good.
I thought the results were good. I looked at the history and as far
as I could make out M&W was first shown on BBC2 as the UK's only
colour channel, then later shown on BBC1 for the wider audience. This suggests it was made as 625 lines. I wonder if this improves the
quality now, but I also wonder how it was shown on BBC1. Maybe the
film was used for BBC1?
I am assuming that the monochrome 405 line signal was derived on the fly
from the 625 line material.
In general, how did they do that?
"Scott" <newsgroups@gefion.myzen.co.uk> wrote in message news:48ngsghpu19fpfpj4tpgteur6ctqpr3npo@4ax.com...
On Sun, 26 Dec 2021 10:58:35 -0000, "NY" <me@privacy.invalid> wrote:
"Dave W" <davewi11@yahoo.co.uk> wrote in message >>news:0t7fsglku28fbgpoleiqhbunsbjtnmalkt@4ax.com...
I've just watched this - it was very good. I did notice some
irregular varying horizontal banding on yellow stage cutains, so this
indicates the source was video tape moving horizontally rather than
film moving vertically.
Or maybe the streaking was on the original master VT, before it was >>played back to be film-recorded. I imagine that any noise/dropouts that >>made it onto the film recording would then be badly decoded by the >>colour-recovery software. I'll watch it some time. I looked at a bit of >>my recording and the results looked pretty damn good.
I thought the results were good. I looked at the history and as far as
I could make out M&W was first shown on BBC2 as the UK's only colour channel, then later shown on BBC1 for the wider audience. This
suggests it was made as 625 lines. I wonder if this improves the
quality now, but I also wonder how it was shown on BBC1. Maybe the
film was used for BBC1?
Did BBC2 get colour before the UHF versions of BBC1 and ITV? I thought
all channels were upgraded to colour at the same time for any given transmitter.
On 26/12/2021 15:28, JNugent wrote:
On 26/12/2021 12:21 pm, Scott wrote:
"NY" <me@privacy.invalid> wrote:
"Dave W" <davewi11@yahoo.co.uk> wrote:
I've just watched this - it was very good. I did notice some
irregular varying horizontal banding on yellow stage cutains, so
this indicates the source was video tape moving horizontally rather
than film moving vertically.
Or maybe the streaking was on the original master VT, before it was
played back to be film-recorded. I imagine that any noise/dropouts
that made it onto the film recording would then be badly decoded by
the colour-recovery software. I'll watch it some time. I looked at a
bit of my recording and the results looked pretty damn good.
I thought the results were good. I looked at the history and as far
as I could make out M&W was first shown on BBC2 as the UK's only
colour channel, then later shown on BBC1 for the wider audience. This
suggests it was made as 625 lines. I wonder if this improves the
quality now, but I also wonder how it was shown on BBC1. Maybe the
film was used for BBC1?
The recovered programme was apparently first broadcast in 1970.
By then, BBC1 and ITV were being broadcast on UHF 625 lines colour
(though also still on VHF 405 lines).
I am assuming that the monochrome 405 line signal was derived on the
fly from the 625 line material.
In general, how did they do that?
-- M
On Fri, 24 Dec 2021 08:24:54 -0000, "Brian Gaff \(Sofa\)" <bri...@blueyonder.co.uk> wrote:
That would seem to be a daft thing to do if they had been recorded on tape >to start with. Some very old recordings from that time will still play as >long as somebody still has the working machines somewhere.I think it was the cost of the tape that was prohibitive.
Brian
"Max Demian" <max_demian@bigfoot.com> wrote in message news:zq2dnQA2LJLYCFX8nZ2dnUU78T2dnZ2d@brightview.co.uk...
I am assuming that the monochrome 405 line signal was derived on the
fly from the 625 line material.
In general, how did they do that?
I've heard it said that some 405-line output was produced by pointing a
405 camera at a TV screen displaying the 625 version ;-) A TV version of
film recording.
I wonder how it was done analogue-electronically, in the days before digitisation and mathematical adding of varying proportions of
corresponding pixels on adjacent (*) 625 lines.
ITN had DICE "Digital Intercontinental Conversion Equipment" https://collection.sciencemuseumgroup.org.uk/objects/co34403/dice-digital-field-store-standards-converter
in 1973 so I imagine similar technology (without the extra hassle of frame-rate interpolation) could have been used for 625->405 conversion.
On 26/12/2021 15:28, JNugent wrote:
On 26/12/2021 12:21 pm, Scott wrote:
"NY" <me@privacy.invalid> wrote:
"Dave W" <davewi11@yahoo.co.uk> wrote:
I've just watched this - it was very good. I did notice some irregular >>>>> varying horizontal banding on yellow stage cutains, so this indicates >>>>> the source was video tape moving horizontally rather than film moving >>>>> vertically.
Or maybe the streaking was on the original master VT, before it was
played
back to be film-recorded. I imagine that any noise/dropouts that
made it
onto the film recording would then be badly decoded by the
colour-recovery
software. I'll watch it some time. I looked at a bit of my recording
and the
results looked pretty damn good.
I thought the results were good. I looked at the history and as far
as I could make out M&W was first shown on BBC2 as the UK's only
colour channel, then later shown on BBC1 for the wider audience. This
suggests it was made as 625 lines. I wonder if this improves the
quality now, but I also wonder how it was shown on BBC1. Maybe the
film was used for BBC1?
The recovered programme was apparently first broadcast in 1970.
By then, BBC1 and ITVÂ were being broadcast on UHF 625 lines colour
(though also still on VHF 405 lines).
I am assuming that the monochrome 405 line signal was derived on the
fly from the 625 line material.
In general, how did they do that?
"Max Demian" <max_demian@bigfoot.com> wrote in message >news:zq2dnQA2LJLYCFX8nZ2dnUU78T2dnZ2d@brightview.co.uk...
I am assuming that the monochrome 405 line signal was derived on the fly >>> from the 625 line material.
In general, how did they do that?
I've heard it said that some 405-line output was produced by pointing a 405 >camera at a TV screen displaying the 625 version ;-) A TV version of film >recording.
I wonder how it was done analogue-electronically, in the days before >digitisation and mathematical adding of varying proportions of corresponding >pixels on adjacent (*) 625 lines.
ITN had DICE "Digital Intercontinental Conversion Equipment" >https://collection.sciencemuseumgroup.org.uk/objects/co34403/dice-digital-field-store-standards-converter
in 1973 so I imagine similar technology (without the extra hassle of >frame-rate interpolation) could have been used for 625->405 conversion.
(*) Having de-interlaced so you were combing adjacent lines rather the >adjacent-odd or adjacent-even, and then re-interlaced afterwards.
In article <sqa5ts$thm$1@dont-email.me>, NY <me@privacy.invalid> wrote:
"Scott" <newsgroups@gefion.myzen.co.uk> wrote in message
news:48ngsghpu19fpfpj4tpgteur6ctqpr3npo@4ax.com...
On Sun, 26 Dec 2021 10:58:35 -0000, "NY" <me@privacy.invalid> wrote:
"Dave W" <davewi11@yahoo.co.uk> wrote in message
news:0t7fsglku28fbgpoleiqhbunsbjtnmalkt@4ax.com...
I've just watched this - it was very good. I did notice some
irregular varying horizontal banding on yellow stage cutains, so this
indicates the source was video tape moving horizontally rather than
film moving vertically.
Or maybe the streaking was on the original master VT, before it was
played back to be film-recorded. I imagine that any noise/dropouts that
made it onto the film recording would then be badly decoded by the
colour-recovery software. I'll watch it some time. I looked at a bit of
my recording and the results looked pretty damn good.
I thought the results were good. I looked at the history and as far as
I could make out M&W was first shown on BBC2 as the UK's only colour
channel, then later shown on BBC1 for the wider audience. This
suggests it was made as 625 lines. I wonder if this improves the
quality now, but I also wonder how it was shown on BBC1. Maybe the
film was used for BBC1?
Did BBC2 get colour before the UHF versions of BBC1 and ITV? I thought
all channels were upgraded to colour at the same time for any given
transmitter.
At source BBC2 (1 July 1967) got colour before BBC1/ITV (November 1969).
The relay station building programmes was in full swing (70 sites per year) >so some areas might well have got all 3 at the same time, if served by a >relay.
On Friday, 24 December 2021 at 10:46:23 UTC, Scott wrote:
On Fri, 24 Dec 2021 08:24:54 -0000, "Brian Gaff \(Sofa\)"
<bri...@blueyonder.co.uk> wrote:
That would seem to be a daft thing to do if they had been recorded onI think it was the cost of the tape that was prohibitive.
tape
to start with. Some very old recordings from that time will still play
as
long as somebody still has the working machines somewhere.
Brian
Sony did reel to reel recorders and I remember using one (probably CV
series with 1/2" tape) during training in 1978, but AIUI the BBC mostly
used Sony https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/U-matic.
The problem was not just the [high] cost, but the bulk - at one hour per tape they soon filled up the available storage space.
Of course these days you can get an hour's SD video on a micro SD card the size of my little finger nail and weighing <0.3g
JNugent <jennings&co@fastmail.fm> wrote:
On 26/12/2021 12:21 pm, Scott wrote:
"NY" <me@privacy.invalid> wrote:
"Dave W" <davewi11@yahoo.co.uk> wrote:
I've just watched this - it was very good. I did notice some irregular >>>>> varying horizontal banding on yellow stage cutains, so this indicates >>>>> the source was video tape moving horizontally rather than film moving >>>>> vertically.
Or maybe the streaking was on the original master VT, before it was played >>>> back to be film-recorded. I imagine that any noise/dropouts that made it >>>> onto the film recording would then be badly decoded by the colour-recovery >>>> software. I'll watch it some time. I looked at a bit of my recording and the
results looked pretty damn good.
I thought the results were good. I looked at the history and as far
as I could make out M&W was first shown on BBC2 as the UK's only
colour channel, then later shown on BBC1 for the wider audience. This
suggests it was made as 625 lines. I wonder if this improves the
quality now, but I also wonder how it was shown on BBC1. Maybe the
film was used for BBC1?
The recovered programme was apparently first broadcast in 1970.
By then, BBC1 and ITV were being broadcast on UHF 625 lines colour
(though also still on VHF 405 lines).
I am assuming that the monochrome 405 line signal was derived on the fly
from the 625 line material.
The credits said 1971
On Sun, 26 Dec 2021 22:24:48 +0000, Scott
<newsgroups@gefion.myzen.co.uk> wrote:
On Sun, 26 Dec 2021 16:40:27 -0000, "NY" <me@privacy.invalid> wrote:
"Max Demian" <max_demian@bigfoot.com> wrote in message >>news:zq2dnQA2LJLYCFX8nZ2dnUU78T2dnZ2d@brightview.co.uk...
I am assuming that the monochrome 405 line signal was derived on the fly >>>> from the 625 line material.
In general, how did they do that?
I've heard it said that some 405-line output was produced by pointing a 405 >>camera at a TV screen displaying the 625 version ;-) A TV version of film >>recording.
I wonder how it was done analogue-electronically, in the days before >>digitisation and mathematical adding of varying proportions of corresponding
pixels on adjacent (*) 625 lines.
ITN had DICE "Digital Intercontinental Conversion Equipment" >>https://collection.sciencemuseumgroup.org.uk/objects/co34403/dice-digital-field-store-standards-converter
in 1973 so I imagine similar technology (without the extra hassle of >>frame-rate interpolation) could have been used for 625->405 conversion.
(*) Having de-interlaced so you were combing adjacent lines rather the >>adjacent-odd or adjacent-even, and then re-interlaced afterwards.
Why not use the archive film rather than the 625 line tape? How would
the quality compare. (I realise this would not work for the news and
other live broadcasts.)
Not every programme was made on film.
If it was, then that could give the best quality, but if the only
surviving copy was a film recording of something originated on videotape, then it would be monochrome, and usually looked awful. Best quality is
always derived from original material, film or video - if it can be
found.
Rod.
On Sun, 26 Dec 2021 16:40:27 -0000, "NY" <me@privacy.invalid> wrote:
"Max Demian" <max_demian@bigfoot.com> wrote in message >>news:zq2dnQA2LJLYCFX8nZ2dnUU78T2dnZ2d@brightview.co.uk...
I am assuming that the monochrome 405 line signal was derived on the fly >>>> from the 625 line material.
In general, how did they do that?
I've heard it said that some 405-line output was produced by pointing a 405 >>camera at a TV screen displaying the 625 version ;-) A TV version of film >>recording.
I wonder how it was done analogue-electronically, in the days before >>digitisation and mathematical adding of varying proportions of corresponding >>pixels on adjacent (*) 625 lines.
ITN had DICE "Digital Intercontinental Conversion Equipment" >>https://collection.sciencemuseumgroup.org.uk/objects/co34403/dice-digital-field-store-standards-converter
in 1973 so I imagine similar technology (without the extra hassle of >>frame-rate interpolation) could have been used for 625->405 conversion.
(*) Having de-interlaced so you were combing adjacent lines rather the >>adjacent-odd or adjacent-even, and then re-interlaced afterwards.
Why not use the archive film rather than the 625 line tape? How would
the quality compare. (I realise this would not work for the news and
other live broadcasts.)
Did BBC2 get colour before the UHF versions of BBC1 and ITV? I thoughtAt source BBC2 (1 July 1967) got colour before BBC1/ITV (November 1969).
all channels were upgraded to colour at the same time for any given
transmitter.
The relay station building programmes was in full swing (70 sites per year) so some areas might well have got all 3 at the same time, if served by a relay.
In article <pevisgdacig05oom4tb1lauqak6mgioemu@4ax.com>,
Roderick Stewart <rjfs@escapetime.myzen.co.uk> wrote:
On Sun, 26 Dec 2021 22:24:48 +0000, Scott
<newsgroups@gefion.myzen.co.uk> wrote:
On Sun, 26 Dec 2021 16:40:27 -0000, "NY" <me@privacy.invalid> wrote:
"Max Demian" <max_demian@bigfoot.com> wrote in message
news:zq2dnQA2LJLYCFX8nZ2dnUU78T2dnZ2d@brightview.co.uk...
I am assuming that the monochrome 405 line signal was derived on the fly >>>>>> from the 625 line material.
In general, how did they do that?
I've heard it said that some 405-line output was produced by pointing a 405
camera at a TV screen displaying the 625 version ;-) A TV version of film >>>> recording.
I wonder how it was done analogue-electronically, in the days before
digitisation and mathematical adding of varying proportions of corresponding
pixels on adjacent (*) 625 lines.
ITN had DICE "Digital Intercontinental Conversion Equipment"
https://collection.sciencemuseumgroup.org.uk/objects/co34403/dice-digital-field-store-standards-converter
in 1973 so I imagine similar technology (without the extra hassle of
frame-rate interpolation) could have been used for 625->405 conversion. >>>>
(*) Having de-interlaced so you were combing adjacent lines rather the >>>> adjacent-odd or adjacent-even, and then re-interlaced afterwards.
Why not use the archive film rather than the 625 line tape? How would
the quality compare. (I realise this would not work for the news and
other live broadcasts.)
Not every programme was made on film.
If it was made in a TV Studio, it would be on video tape. Film copies were made, in general, for the export market. Before the arrival of portable recorders, outside (location) material was film which was played back into the video recording.
If it was, then that could give the best quality, but if the only
surviving copy was a film recording of something originated on videotape,
then it would be monochrome, and usually looked awful. Best quality is
always derived from original material, film or video - if it can be
found.
Rod.
"R. Mark Clayton" <notyalckram@gmail.com> wrote in message news:783e60a2-2ee1-4816-8f2d-02ca35521dben@googlegroups.com...
On Friday, 24 December 2021 at 10:46:23 UTC, Scott wrote:
On Fri, 24 Dec 2021 08:24:54 -0000, "Brian Gaff \(Sofa\)"
<bri...@blueyonder.co.uk> wrote:
That would seem to be a daft thing to do if they had been recordedon >tape
to start with. Some very old recordings from that time will stillplay >as
long as somebody still has the working machines somewhere.I think it was the cost of the tape that was prohibitive.
Brian
Sony did reel to reel recorders and I remember using one (probably CV
series with 1/2" tape) during training in 1978, but AIUI the BBC
mostly used Sony https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/U-matic.
I thought broadcasters tended to regard U-Matic as an ENG format for
portable cameras and camcorders, but never used it for static
stupid/location recording when the higher quality of 2" Quad or the
various helical 1" formats was needed.
In article <sqa5ts$thm$1...@dont-email.me>, NY <m...@privacy.invalid> wrote:
"Scott" <newsg...@gefion.myzen.co.uk> wrote in message
Did BBC2 get colour before the UHF versions of BBC1 and ITV? I thoughtAt source BBC2 (1 July 1967) got colour before BBC1/ITV (November 1969).
all channels were upgraded to colour at the same time for any given transmitter.
The relay station building programmes was in full swing (70 sites per year) so some areas might well have got all 3 at the same time, if served by a relay.
On Sunday, 26 December 2021 at 17:14:17 UTC, charles wrote:
In article <sqa5ts$thm$1...@dont-email.me>, NY <m...@privacy.invalid> wrote: >> > "Scott" <newsg...@gefion.myzen.co.uk> wrote in message
SNIP
Did BBC2 get colour before the UHF versions of BBC1 and ITV? I thoughtAt source BBC2 (1 July 1967) got colour before BBC1/ITV (November 1969).
all channels were upgraded to colour at the same time for any given
transmitter.
The relay station building programmes was in full swing (70 sites per year) >> so some areas might well have got all 3 at the same time, if served by a
relay.
My recollection too - BBC2 also started in 625 lines.
Before our transmitter [Blackhill] switched my dad bought a Bush dual standard TV, only for me to discover when transmission started that there was no UHF tuner in it!
A very rich family were acquainted with (indoor swimming pool etc.) bought one of the first colour sets for IIRC £1,000 (~=£17k now) for which one could have purchased a decent car [of the time]
The lost & recovered 1970 edition didn't have an original (C) date (it
wasn't the custom at the time), but added captions credited the
restoration technical people and added a (C) date of MMXXI.
I thought broadcasters tended to regard U-Matic as an ENG format for
portable cameras and camcorders, but never used it for static
stupid/location recording when the higher quality of 2" Quad or the
various helical 1" formats was needed.
"JNugent" <jennings&co@fastmail.fm> wrote:
The lost & recovered 1970 edition didn't have an original (C) date (it
wasn't the custom at the time), but added captions credited the
restoration technical people and added a (C) date of MMXXI.
When did broadcasters start adding a copyright year (either in Arabic or Roman numerals) in the end credits? Probably wasn't long after 1970, so
the M&W programmes probably only just missed having it.
On 27/12/2021 03:34 pm, NY wrote:
"JNugent" <jennings&co@fastmail.fm> wrote:
The lost & recovered 1970 edition didn't have an original (C) date (it
wasn't the custom at the time), but added captions credited the
restoration technical people and added a (C) date of MMXXI.
When did broadcasters start adding a copyright year (either in Arabic or
Roman numerals) in the end credits? Probably wasn't long after 1970, so
the M&W programmes probably only just missed having it.
I'm not sure when the inclusion of the (C) year became de rigeur.
There's no date on, for instance, Episode 1 of "Emmerdale Farm" (October >1972) and neither is it included on the first ep of Thames' "Harriet's
Back In Town" (same sort of date). Both were part of the clutch of new
ITV lunchtime soaps from late 1972 when broadcasting hour controls were >scrapped.
But the date is there by June 1974, when Thames showed the pilot for
"The Sweeney".
All of the above are present in complete form, on YouTube.
On Mon, 27 Dec 2021 17:04:11 +0000, JNugent <jennings&co@fastmail.fm>Â The rights started off being owned by the makers, ATV/Central TV.
wrote:
On 27/12/2021 03:34 pm, NY wrote:I know someone who played a part in Crossroads. I have gone through
"JNugent" <jennings&co@fastmail.fm> wrote:I'm not sure when the inclusion of the (C) year became de rigeur.
The lost & recovered 1970 edition didn't have an original (C) date (it >>>> wasn't the custom at the time), but added captions credited theWhen did broadcasters start adding a copyright year (either in Arabic or >>> Roman numerals) in the end credits? Probably wasn't long after 1970, so
restoration technical people and added a (C) date of MMXXI.
the M&W programmes probably only just missed having it.
There's no date on, for instance, Episode 1 of "Emmerdale Farm" (October
1972) and neither is it included on the first ep of Thames' "Harriet's
Back In Town" (same sort of date). Both were part of the clutch of new
ITV lunchtime soaps from late 1972 when broadcasting hour controls were
scrapped.
But the date is there by June 1974, when Thames showed the pilot for
"The Sweeney".
All of the above are present in complete form, on YouTube.
many credits on YouTube episodes without success. I tried writing
to the company that now owns the rights (Local TV, I think). No
reply. I don't expect ITV plc would be interested. Any ideas how to
search further? Is there any public archive?
Start here
https://www.itvcontentdelivery.com/contact-us
I know someone who played a part in Crossroads. I have gone through
many credits on YouTube episodes without success. I tried writing
to the company that now owns the rights (Local TV, I think). No
reply. I don't expect ITV plc would be interested. Any ideas how to
search further? Is there any public archive?
On 27/12/2021 17:12, Scott wrote:
On Mon, 27 Dec 2021 17:04:11 +0000, JNugent <jennings&co@fastmail.fm>The rights started off being owned by the makers, ATV/Central TV.
wrote:
On 27/12/2021 03:34 pm, NY wrote:I know someone who played a part in Crossroads. I have gone through
"JNugent" <jennings&co@fastmail.fm> wrote:I'm not sure when the inclusion of the (C) year became de rigeur.
The lost & recovered 1970 edition didn't have an original (C) date (it >>>>> wasn't the custom at the time), but added captions credited theWhen did broadcasters start adding a copyright year (either in Arabic or >>>> Roman numerals) in the end credits? Probably wasn't long after 1970, so >>>> the M&W programmes probably only just missed having it.
restoration technical people and added a (C) date of MMXXI.
There's no date on, for instance, Episode 1 of "Emmerdale Farm" (October >>> 1972) and neither is it included on the first ep of Thames' "Harriet's
Back In Town" (same sort of date). Both were part of the clutch of new
ITV lunchtime soaps from late 1972 when broadcasting hour controls were
scrapped.
But the date is there by June 1974, when Thames showed the pilot for
"The Sweeney".
All of the above are present in complete form, on YouTube.
many credits on YouTube episodes without success. I tried writing
to the company that now owns the rights (Local TV, I think). No
reply. I don't expect ITV plc would be interested. Any ideas how to
search further? Is there any public archive?
Central were bought by Carlton in the 90s, who then merged with Granada,
to form the present 'ITV Ltd' company. I think the archive for most of
the 'acquired' ITV programmes due to the 90s mergers and buy outs is
now physically housed at YTV in Leeds
The local TV Birmingham TV station bought the rights to show the
episodes, but I think the actual rights still sit with ITV in Leeds
Start here
https://www.itvcontentdelivery.com/contact-us
"Scott" <newsgroups@gefion.myzen.co.uk> wrote in message >news:2psjsglf9ia82j50b6r8q6th3b5kb90d6t@4ax.com...
I know someone who played a part in Crossroads. I have gone through
many credits on YouTube episodes without success. I tried writing
to the company that now owns the rights (Local TV, I think). No
reply. I don't expect ITV plc would be interested. Any ideas how to
search further? Is there any public archive?
Have you looked at https://www.imdb.com/title/tt0057741/reference and/or >searched for their name on IMDB to see if they are listed and which episodes >they were in. That might help with tracking down recordings (Youtube or >official): date or episode number should help with searches.
Did film recording of a programme that had filmed inserts take any
precautions to make sure that the change from one film frame to the
next in the film recording occurred in sync with the film insert as
it was originally telecined for the programme, rather than happening
to be one field adrift?
I seem to remember mention of "station sync", which meant that all
video being transmitted was locked to a station-wide time-signal,
presumably to avoid the problem of which you speak.
On 24/12/2021 00:16, JNugent wrote:
Did film recording of a programme that had filmed inserts take any
precautions to make sure that the change from one film frame to the
next in the film recording occurred in sync with the film insert as
it was originally telecined for the programme, rather than happening
to be one field adrift?
I seem to remember mention of "station sync", which meant that all
video being transmitted was locked to a station-wide time-signal,
presumably to avoid the problem of which you speak.
It still is, it's the bedrock of all TV broadcast systems. Yes, it keeps
f1 and f2 in step for all sources locked to it. Up until the mid to late
60s, not all vision mixers (the equipment, not the operators of the same
name !) didn't always cut between sources during the vertical blanking interval, and you'd so the image 'slice' at the cut point
On 24/12/2021 00:16, JNugent wrote:
Did film recording of a programme that had filmed inserts take any
precautions to make sure that the change from one film frame to the next >>> in the film recording occurred in sync with the film insert as it was
originally telecined for the programme, rather than happening to be one
field adrift?
I seem to remember mention of "station sync", which meant that all video
being transmitted was locked to a station-wide time-signal, presumably to
avoid the problem of which you speak.
It still is, it's the bedrock of all TV broadcast systems. Yes, it keeps
f1 and f2 in step for all sources locked to it. Up until the mid to late
60s, not all vision mixers (the equipment, not the operators of the same
name !) didn't always cut between sources during the vertical blanking interval, and you'd so the image 'slice' at the cut point.
On 29/12/2021 17:42, Mark Carver wrote:
On 24/12/2021 00:16, JNugent wrote:
Did film recording of a programme that had filmed inserts take any
precautions to make sure that the change from one film frame to the
next in the film recording occurred in sync with the film insert as it >>>> was originally telecined for the programme, rather than happening to be >>>> one field adrift?
I seem to remember mention of "station sync", which meant that all video >>> being transmitted was locked to a station-wide time-signal, presumably
to avoid the problem of which you speak.
It still is, it's the bedrock of all TV broadcast systems. Yes, it keeps
f1 and f2 in step for all sources locked to it. Up until the mid to late
60s, not all vision mixers (the equipment, not the operators of the same
name !) didn't always cut between sources during the vertical blanking
interval, and you'd so the image 'slice' at the cut point
Back long ago here in London in the 80s, it was entertaining watching the sync lost and sound glitches, when they twice weekly switched between the
LWT and Thames companies that provided London ITV.
"Adrian Caspersz" <email@here.invalid> wrote in message news:j35iclF8chfU1@mid.individual.net...
On 29/12/2021 17:42, Mark Carver wrote:
On 24/12/2021 00:16, JNugent wrote:
Did film recording of a programme that had filmed inserts take any
precautions to make sure that the change from one film frame to the
next in the film recording occurred in sync with the film insert as
it was originally telecined for the programme, rather than
happening to be one field adrift?
I seem to remember mention of "station sync", which meant that all
video being transmitted was locked to a station-wide time-signal,
presumably to avoid the problem of which you speak.
It still is, it's the bedrock of all TV broadcast systems. Yes, it
keeps f1 and f2 in step for all sources locked to it. Up until the
mid to late 60s, not all vision mixers (the equipment, not the
operators of the same name !) didn't always cut between sources
during the vertical blanking interval, and you'd so the image 'slice'
at the cut point
Back long ago here in London in the 80s, it was entertaining watching
the sync lost and sound glitches, when they twice weekly switched
between the LWT and Thames companies that provided London ITV.
I remember that - a picture that rolled or nudged, with coloured patches
- like a bad VHS edit.
Was there a fundamental reason why LWT and Thames couldn't synchronise
their feeds to the ITV network, either by feeding from a shared clock
source, or else by a suitable delay in the video (which is a lot easier
once there is digital framestore technology to do this, instead of
having to use a glass-block delay line). I presume the master clocks for Thames and LWT would be at Euston and at Teddington respectively, so
there isn't much distance between them for signal propagation delays.
In article <sqk54i$p2j$1@dont-email.me>, NY <me@privacy.invalid> wrote:
"Adrian Caspersz" <email@here.invalid> wrote in message
news:j35iclF8chfU1@mid.individual.net...
On 29/12/2021 17:42, Mark Carver wrote:
On 24/12/2021 00:16, JNugent wrote:
Did film recording of a programme that had filmed inserts take any >>>>>> precautions to make sure that the change from one film frame to the >>>>>> next in the film recording occurred in sync with the film insert as >>>>>> it was originally telecined for the programme, rather than
happening to be one field adrift?
I seem to remember mention of "station sync", which meant that all
video being transmitted was locked to a station-wide time-signal,
presumably to avoid the problem of which you speak.
It still is, it's the bedrock of all TV broadcast systems. Yes, it
keeps f1 and f2 in step for all sources locked to it. Up until the
mid to late 60s, not all vision mixers (the equipment, not the
operators of the same name !) didn't always cut between sources
during the vertical blanking interval, and you'd so the image 'slice'
at the cut point
Back long ago here in London in the 80s, it was entertaining watching
the sync lost and sound glitches, when they twice weekly switched
between the LWT and Thames companies that provided London ITV.
I remember that - a picture that rolled or nudged, with coloured patches
- like a bad VHS edit.
Was there a fundamental reason why LWT and Thames couldn't synchronise
their feeds to the ITV network, either by feeding from a shared clock
source, or else by a suitable delay in the video (which is a lot easier
once there is digital framestore technology to do this, instead of
having to use a glass-block delay line). I presume the master clocks for
Thames and LWT would be at Euston and at Teddington respectively, so
there isn't much distance between them for signal propagation delays.
Switching would be done by BT at the Tower. (Y-TOW). Euston is almost on
the doorstep, Teddington quite a few mile away.
Back long ago here in London in the 80s, it was entertaining watching
the sync lost and sound glitches, when they twice weekly switched
between the LWT and Thames companies that provided London ITV.
Was there a fundamental reason why LWT and Thames couldn't synchronise You're thinking the wrong way. Thames and LWT were each running their
their feeds to the ITV network, either by feeding from a shared clock
source, or else by a suitable delay in the video (which is a lot
easier once there is digital framestore technology to do this, instead
of having to use a glass-block delay line). I presume the master
clocks for Thames and LWT would be at Euston and at Teddington
respectively, so there isn't much distance between them for signal propagation delays.
On Thu, 30 Dec 2021 11:10:13 +0000, Adrian CasperszSee my other post.
<email@here.invalid> wrote:
[snip]
Back long ago here in London in the 80s, it was entertaining watchingWhy would this be any more of an issue than switching between local
the sync lost and sound glitches, when they twice weekly switched
between the LWT and Thames companies that provided London ITV.
and network programmes at the individual francises? Surely STV in
particular would have lot of switching to do and I don't recall this
being problematic.
Up until the early 80s, your local ITV station would in the 10-15 seconds
or so before cutting to the network programme
adjust the phase of the master SPG such that it drifted into sync with
the network feed. Normally done by adding or subtracting one line per
field.
This had a drawback, that during this period any VTR or Telecine machine servos would go bananas because they were receiving no standard syncs.
That's why the introduction into the programme was either a camera shot of the announcer, or a caption (such as a clock)
When Frame Store Synchronisers appeared in the 80s, the ITV companies
adopted those, so whatever was stuffed into the input of a Frame Store
would be locked on its output to the local sync. That also liberated the companies to be able use VT derived logos etc into programmes.
"Mark Carver" <mark.carver@invalid.invalid> wrote in message news:j35rf0Fa39uU1@mid.individual.net...
Up until the early 80s, your local ITV station would in the 10-15
seconds or so before cutting to the network programme
adjust the phase of the master SPG such that it drifted into sync
with the network feed. Normally done by adding or subtracting one
line per field.
This had a drawback, that during this period any VTR or Telecine
machine servos would go bananas because they were receiving no
standard syncs.
That's why the introduction into the programme was either a camera
shot of the announcer, or a caption (such as a clock)
When Frame Store Synchronisers appeared in the 80s, the ITV companies
adopted those, so whatever was stuffed into the input of a Frame
Store would be locked on its output to the local sync. That also
liberated the companies to be able use VT derived logos etc into
programmes.
What technology did BBC use on programmes such as Nationwide when they
were switching network between feeds from various different regions
during the course of the programme? Everything had to be in sync at
the vision mixing centre (BBC TV Centre in Wood Lane or else Lime
Grove) irrespective of the fact that there would be a delay between
the contributing regional studio and the off air pictures that their
region's transmitters were broadcasting - equivalent to the round trip regional studio-TV Centre-regional transmitter.
When ITV regions contributed programmes to ITV Network (eg Emmerdale
Farm from YTV followed by Crossroads from ATV followed by The Sweeney
from Thames [fictional schedule!]) did each region in turn playout its programme from its own VT, or were the tapes sent to a central network playout centre? If it was the former, how did they handle the synchronisation?
"Adrian Caspersz" <email@here.invalid> wrote in message news:j35iclF8chfU1@mid.individual.net...
On 29/12/2021 17:42, Mark Carver wrote:
On 24/12/2021 00:16, JNugent wrote:
Did film recording of a programme that had filmed inserts take any
precautions to make sure that the change from one film frame to the
next in the film recording occurred in sync with the film insert as
it was originally telecined for the programme, rather than
happening to be one field adrift?
I seem to remember mention of "station sync", which meant that all
video being transmitted was locked to a station-wide time-signal,
presumably to avoid the problem of which you speak.
It still is, it's the bedrock of all TV broadcast systems. Yes, it
keeps f1 and f2 in step for all sources locked to it. Up until the
mid to late 60s, not all vision mixers (the equipment, not the
operators of the same name !) didn't always cut between sources
during the vertical blanking interval, and you'd so the image 'slice'
at the cut point
Back long ago here in London in the 80s, it was entertaining watching
the sync lost and sound glitches, when they twice weekly switched
between the LWT and Thames companies that provided London ITV.
I remember that - a picture that rolled or nudged, with coloured patches
- like a bad VHS edit.
Was there a fundamental reason why LWT and Thames couldn't synchronise
their feeds to the ITV network, either by feeding from a shared clock
source, or else by a suitable delay in the video (which is a lot easier
once there is digital framestore technology to do this, instead of
having to use a glass-block delay line). I presume the master clocks for Thames and LWT would be at Euston and at Teddington respectively, so
there isn't much distance between them for signal propagation delays.
I remember that the changeover was more visible on some TVs than others, depending on how long it took their line/frame sync oscillators to lock
onto a slightly early/late sync pulse. VHS recordings tended to magnify
the effect...
On 30/12/2021 13:27, Scott wrote:
On Thu, 30 Dec 2021 11:10:13 +0000, Adrian CasperszSee my other post.
<email@here.invalid> wrote:
[snip]
Back long ago here in London in the 80s, it was entertaining watchingWhy would this be any more of an issue than switching between local
the sync lost and sound glitches, when they twice weekly switched
between the LWT and Thames companies that provided London ITV.
and network programmes at the individual francises? Surely STV in
particular would have lot of switching to do and I don't recall this
being problematic.
As far as network programmes being in sync with local ITV company, that
was quite a different arrangement
Up until the early 80s, your local ITV station would in the 10-15
seconds or so before cutting to the network programme
adjust the phase of the master SPG such that it drifted into sync with
the network feed. Normally done by adding or subtracting one line per field. >This had a drawback, that during this period any VTR or Telecine machine >servos would go bananas because they were receiving no standard syncs.
That's why the introduction into the programme was either a camera shot
of the announcer, or a caption (such as a clock)
When Frame Store Synchronisers appeared in the 80s, the ITV companies
adopted those, so whatever was stuffed into the input of a Frame Store
would be locked on its output to the local sync. That also liberated the >companies to be able use VT derived logos etc into programmes.
On 30/12/2021 11:28 am, NY wrote:
I presume the master clocks for Thames and LWT would be at Euston and at
Teddington respectively, so there isn't much distance between them for
signal propagation delays.
Euston and Teddington were both Thames establishments. LWT had the South
Bank studios and I think that for for a while, while waiting for
completion, the old Rediffusion studios at Wembley)
What technology did BBC use on programmes such as Nationwide when they
were switching network between feeds from various different regions
during the course of the programme? Everything had to be in sync at the
vision mixing centre (BBC TV Centre in Wood Lane or else Lime Grove)
irrespective of the fact that there would be a delay between the
contributing regional studio and the off air pictures that their region's
transmitters were broadcasting - equivalent to the round trip regional
studio-TV Centre-regional transmitter.
The Beeb did the reverse technique to ITV's. Natlock, basically the remote studio's SPG was sync'd to TV Centre or Lime Grove by using remote control tones up a landline I think ?
I am definitely missing something here. If each franchisee could
insert its own adverts into a networked programme and return to the
programme on time, why would there be a difficulty in moving from one
company to another?
I'm inclined to say that a single country-wide SPG (Natlock) is betterIt's for horses for courses. The BBC Natlock system would have been no
than separate SPGs in each region which could differ in phase (and
maybe even frequency, though by a hopefully negligible amount). Either
way, you need to allow for cable delays, but with a central SPG, it's
only a simple sine/square wave that needs to be delayed, rather than a complete composite video signal.
"JNugent" <jennings&co@fastmail.fm> wrote in message >news:j365sfFbve8U1@mid.individual.net...
On 30/12/2021 11:28 am, NY wrote:
I presume the master clocks for Thames and LWT would be at Euston and at >>> Teddington respectively, so there isn't much distance between them for
signal propagation delays.
Euston and Teddington were both Thames establishments. LWT had the South
Bank studios and I think that for for a while, while waiting for
completion, the old Rediffusion studios at Wembley)
Duh! Of course. I remember Magpie being advertised as coming from Teddington >Lock - they may have given that as a correspondence address. And Magpie was >weekdays not weekend.
That means that The South Bank Show (with the nasally snuffling voice of >Melvin Bragg) must have been a "weekend" programme if it was made by LWT >(where "weekend" includes Friday night).
"Scott" <newsgroups@gefion.myzen.co.uk> wrote in message news:tqorsgdlcelmnlfctbh20mqoghclk5mm3v@4ax.com...
I am definitely missing something here. If each franchisee could
insert its own adverts into a networked programme and return to the
programme on time, why would there be a difficulty in moving from one
company to another?
Region A contributes a programme to network. There is a finite delay
(of roughly 1 nanosecond per foot *) for the signal to reach the
master switching centre that distributes the signal to all the regions
and hence to each region's transmitters.
That programme ends and is followed by a programme contributed by
Region B. Region B's SPG may be out of phase with Region A's, and even
if it's not, there will almost certainly be a different delay because
the signal is coming from a different part of the country over a line
of a different length. The switching centre has to "persuade" the
signals from Region A and Region B to be in phase so a clean switch is possible. Insertion of adverts within a programme is carried out at
each region and the VT they use for the adverts can be synced to the networked feed that they receive (the contributing region must sync to
this signal and not to their own SPG because of the round-trip delay).
(*) An approximation based on the speed of light being about 3x 10^8
m/sec. There is then the added complication that signals propagate at different speeds (a proportion of the speed of light) through
different cables.
"Scott" <newsgroups@gefion.myzen.co.uk> wrote in message >news:tqorsgdlcelmnlfctbh20mqoghclk5mm3v@4ax.com...
I am definitely missing something here. If each franchisee could
insert its own adverts into a networked programme and return to the
programme on time, why would there be a difficulty in moving from one
company to another?
Region A contributes a programme to network. There is a finite delay (of >roughly 1 nanosecond per foot *) for the signal to reach the master
switching centre that distributes the signal to all the regions and hence to >each region's transmitters.
That programme ends and is followed by a programme contributed by Region B. >Region B's SPG may be out of phase with Region A's, and even if it's not, >there will almost certainly be a different delay because the signal is
coming from a different part of the country over a line of a different >length. The switching centre has to "persuade" the signals from Region A and >Region B to be in phase so a clean switch is possible. Insertion of adverts >within a programme is carried out at each region and the VT they use for the >adverts can be synced to the networked feed that they receive (the >contributing region must sync to this signal and not to their own SPG
because of the round-trip delay).
(*) An approximation based on the speed of light being about 3x 10^8 m/sec. >There is then the added complication that signals propagate at different >speeds (a proportion of the speed of light) through different cables.
"JNugent" <jennings&co@fastmail.fm> wrote in message news:j365sfFbve8U1@mid.individual.net...
On 30/12/2021 11:28 am, NY wrote:
I presume the master clocks for Thames and LWT would be at Euston and
at Teddington respectively, so there isn't much distance between them
for signal propagation delays.
Euston and Teddington were both Thames establishments. LWT had the
South Bank studios and I think that for for a while, while waiting for
completion, the old Rediffusion studios at Wembley)
Duh! Of course. I remember Magpie being advertised as coming from
Teddington Lock - they may have given that as a correspondence address.
And Magpie was weekdays not weekend.
That means that The South Bank Show (with the nasally snuffling voice of Melvin Bragg) must have been a "weekend" programme if it was made by LWT (where "weekend" includes Friday night).
On Thu, 30 Dec 2021 16:57:10 -0000, "NY" <me@privacy.invalid> wrote:
"JNugent" <jennings&co@fastmail.fm> wrote in message
news:j365sfFbve8U1@mid.individual.net...
On 30/12/2021 11:28 am, NY wrote:
I presume the master clocks for Thames and LWT would be at Euston and at >>>> Teddington respectively, so there isn't much distance between them for >>>> signal propagation delays.
Euston and Teddington were both Thames establishments. LWT had the South >>> Bank studios and I think that for for a while, while waiting for
completion, the old Rediffusion studios at Wembley)
Duh! Of course. I remember Magpie being advertised as coming from Teddington >> Lock - they may have given that as a correspondence address. And Magpie was >> weekdays not weekend.
That means that The South Bank Show (with the nasally snuffling voice of
Melvin Bragg) must have been a "weekend" programme if it was made by LWT
(where "weekend" includes Friday night).
I'm sure it was shown in a weekend slot. Here is a nerdy question:
was there anything to stop LWT making a programme for the ITV network
that happened to be shown during the week (or indeed selling a
programme to Thames)?
On Thu, 30 Dec 2021 17:19:12 -0000, "NY" <me@privacy.invalid> wrote:
"Scott" <newsgroups@gefion.myzen.co.uk> wrote in messageSorry, but I'm still missing this, due to lack of technical knowledge.
news:tqorsgdlcelmnlfctbh20mqoghclk5mm3v@4ax.com...
I am definitely missing something here. If each franchisee couldRegion A contributes a programme to network. There is a finite delay (of
insert its own adverts into a networked programme and return to the
programme on time, why would there be a difficulty in moving from one
company to another?
roughly 1 nanosecond per foot *) for the signal to reach the master
switching centre that distributes the signal to all the regions and hence to >> each region's transmitters.
That programme ends and is followed by a programme contributed by Region B. >> Region B's SPG may be out of phase with Region A's, and even if it's not,
there will almost certainly be a different delay because the signal is
coming from a different part of the country over a line of a different
length. The switching centre has to "persuade" the signals from Region A and >> Region B to be in phase so a clean switch is possible. Insertion of adverts >> within a programme is carried out at each region and the VT they use for the >> adverts can be synced to the networked feed that they receive (the
contributing region must sync to this signal and not to their own SPG
because of the round-trip delay).
(*) An approximation based on the speed of light being about 3x 10^8 m/sec. >> There is then the added complication that signals propagate at different
speeds (a proportion of the speed of light) through different cables.
If (say) Coronation Street could be sent to all the ITV companies
without any great difficulty that I can recall, and they could add
their own adverts, then why could the London service not be
transferred from Thames to LWT in the same way?
On 30/12/2021 16:05, NY wrote:
"Mark Carver" <mark.carver@invalid.invalid> wrote in message news:j35rf0Fa39uU1@mid.individual.net...
Up until the early 80s, your local ITV station would in the 10-15
seconds or so before cutting to the network programme
adjust the phase of the master SPG such that it drifted into sync
with the network feed. Normally done by adding or subtracting one
line per field.
This had a drawback, that during this period any VTR or Telecine
machine servos would go bananas because they were receiving no
standard syncs.
That's why the introduction into the programme was either a camera
shot of the announcer, or a caption (such as a clock)
When Frame Store Synchronisers appeared in the 80s, the ITV companies
adopted those, so whatever was stuffed into the input of a Frame
Store would be locked on its output to the local sync. That also
liberated the companies to be able use VT derived logos etc into
programmes.
What technology did BBC use on programmes such as Nationwide when they
were switching network between feeds from various different regions
during the course of the programme? Everything had to be in sync at
the vision mixing centre (BBC TV Centre in Wood Lane or else Lime
Grove) irrespective of the fact that there would be a delay between
the contributing regional studio and the off air pictures that their region's transmitters were broadcasting - equivalent to the round trip regional studio-TV Centre-regional transmitter.
The Beeb did the reverse technique to ITV's. Natlock, basically the
remote studio's SPG was sync'd to TV Centre or Lime Grove by using
remote control tones up a landline I think ?
On 30/12/2021 04:57 pm, NY wrote:
"JNugent" <jennings&co@fastmail.fm> wrote in message
news:j365sfFbve8U1@mid.individual.net...
On 30/12/2021 11:28 am, NY wrote:
I presume the master clocks for Thames and LWT would be at Euston and
at Teddington respectively, so there isn't much distance between them
for signal propagation delays.
Euston and Teddington were both Thames establishments. LWT had the
South Bank studios and I think that for for a while, while waiting for
completion, the old Rediffusion studios at Wembley)
Duh! Of course. I remember Magpie being advertised as coming from
Teddington Lock - they may have given that as a correspondence address.
And Magpie was weekdays not weekend.
That means that The South Bank Show (with the nasally snuffling voice of
Melvin Bragg) must have been a "weekend" programme if it was made by LWT
(where "weekend" includes Friday night).
Like ABC in its day, LWT made programmes all week!
"Mark Carver" <mark.carver@invalid.invalid> wrote in message news:j365erFbvpvU1@mid.individual.net...
What technology did BBC use on programmes such as Nationwide when they
were switching network between feeds from various different regions
during the course of the programme? Everything had to be in sync at
the vision mixing centre (BBC TV Centre in Wood Lane or else Lime
Grove) irrespective of the fact that there would be a delay between
the contributing regional studio and the off air pictures that their
region's transmitters were broadcasting - equivalent to the round
trip regional studio-TV Centre-regional transmitter.
The Beeb did the reverse technique to ITV's. Natlock, basically the
remote studio's SPG was sync'd to TV Centre or Lime Grove by using
remote control tones up a landline I think ?
Presumably every region's feed to the central studio had to have a
calibrated delay to compensate for the time taken for the Natlock signal
to reach the region and the region's output, synced to the Natlock *as
it receives it*, to return the central studio. I suppose as long as the
same circuit was always used, that would be a once-only setting, but as
soon as an alternative cable (or microwave link) was used instead,
things would have to be recalibrated. I would mean that every region was running with a different delay to every other, such that all the signals reaching TV Centre were in phase.
I'm inclined to say that a single country-wide SPG (Natlock) is better
than separate SPGs in each region which could differ in phase (and maybe
even frequency, though by a hopefully negligible amount). Either way,
you need to allow for cable delays, but with a central SPG, it's only a simple sine/square wave that needs to be delayed, rather than a complete composite video signal.
Nowadays, with digital framestores, I'm sure handling remote
contributions from regions of OBs of either analogue or digital TV is trivial, but it must have been a real problem before framestores when
you had to have some other day of inserting the correct delay.
On Thu, 30 Dec 2021 18:16:09 +0000, JNugent <jennings&co@fastmail.fm>
wrote:
On 30/12/2021 04:57 pm, NY wrote:
"JNugent" <jennings&co@fastmail.fm> wrote in message
news:j365sfFbve8U1@mid.individual.net...
On 30/12/2021 11:28 am, NY wrote:
I presume the master clocks for Thames and LWT would be at Euston
and at Teddington respectively, so there isn't much distance
between them for signal propagation delays.
Euston and Teddington were both Thames establishments. LWT had the
South Bank studios and I think that for for a while, while waiting
for completion, the old Rediffusion studios at Wembley)
Duh! Of course. I remember Magpie being advertised as coming from
Teddington Lock - they may have given that as a correspondence
address. And Magpie was weekdays not weekend.
That means that The South Bank Show (with the nasally snuffling voice
of Melvin Bragg) must have been a "weekend" programme if it was made
by LWT (where "weekend" includes Friday night).
Like ABC in its day, LWT made programmes all week!
You mean they were allowed to pre-record South Bank Show before 7 pm on a Friday :-)
Scott <newsgroups@gefion.myzen.co.uk> wrote:
You mean they were allowed to pre-record South Bank Show before 7 pm
on a Friday :-)
Is that somehow different from recording it before 7pm?
On 30/12/2021 17:44, Scott wrote:
On Thu, 30 Dec 2021 17:19:12 -0000, "NY" <me@privacy.invalid> wrote:Simply because the Thames/LWT switch was performed at BT (by an
"Scott" <newsgroups@gefion.myzen.co.uk> wrote in messageSorry, but I'm still missing this, due to lack of technical knowledge.
news:tqorsgdlcelmnlfctbh20mqoghclk5mm3v@4ax.com...
I am definitely missing something here. If each franchisee couldRegion A contributes a programme to network. There is a finite delay (of >>> roughly 1 nanosecond per foot *) for the signal to reach the master
insert its own adverts into a networked programme and return to the
programme on time, why would there be a difficulty in moving from one
company to another?
switching centre that distributes the signal to all the regions and hence to
each region's transmitters.
That programme ends and is followed by a programme contributed by Region B. >>> Region B's SPG may be out of phase with Region A's, and even if it's not, >>> there will almost certainly be a different delay because the signal is
coming from a different part of the country over a line of a different
length. The switching centre has to "persuade" the signals from Region A and
Region B to be in phase so a clean switch is possible. Insertion of adverts >>> within a programme is carried out at each region and the VT they use for the
adverts can be synced to the networked feed that they receive (the
contributing region must sync to this signal and not to their own SPG
because of the round-trip delay).
(*) An approximation based on the speed of light being about 3x 10^8 m/sec. >>> There is then the added complication that signals propagate at different >>> speeds (a proportion of the speed of light) through different cables.
If (say) Coronation Street could be sent to all the ITV companies
without any great difficulty that I can recall, and they could add
their own adverts, then why could the London service not be
transferred from Thames to LWT in the same way?
automated time switch) There was no means (staff or equipment) at the
BT Tower to sync the two sources into phase.
You can only perform that function at the physical location of the
switch, and it would have required BT to provide a bloke to monitor, and >'talk' his counterpart at LWT in.
Your local ITV company had a engineer comparing the phase of the
incoming network signal, with his own local sync pulses, and modify the
phase of the local pulses to ensure a clean cut. He was doing that just >before the start of each programme, and just before each ad break. So at >least every 20 mins or so. The phase would drift over that period, even >though each company in the network had 'precision' SPGs
You mean they were allowed to pre-record South Bank Show before 7 pm
on a Friday :-)
In article <tp0ssgpisto5nrn26jsaql4gs8uij90tou@4ax.com>,
Scott <newsgroups@gefion.myzen.co.uk> wrote:
On Thu, 30 Dec 2021 18:52:17 +0000, Chris Green <cl@isbd.net> wrote:
Scott <newsgroups@gefion.myzen.co.uk> wrote:
You mean they were allowed to pre-record South Bank Show before 7 pm
on a Friday :-)
Is that somehow different from recording it before 7pm?
Note the smiley but what I meant was that Thames had the London
franchise until 7 pm Friday and LWT from then on. If the show were
recorded before 7 pm, LWT would not be a franchise holder.
The Franchise was for broadcasting - not for making programmes. It would
have been different if they'd played Box and Cox in the same studios,
On Thu, 30 Dec 2021 18:52:17 +0000, Chris Green <cl@isbd.net> wrote:
Scott <newsgroups@gefion.myzen.co.uk> wrote:
You mean they were allowed to pre-record South Bank Show before 7 pm
on a Friday :-)
Is that somehow different from recording it before 7pm?
Note the smiley but what I meant was that Thames had the London
franchise until 7 pm Friday and LWT from then on. If the show were
recorded before 7 pm, LWT would not be a franchise holder.
On Thu, 30 Dec 2021 18:52:17 +0000, Chris Green <cl@isbd.net> wrote:
Scott <newsgroups@gefion.myzen.co.uk> wrote:
You mean they were allowed to pre-record South Bank Show before 7 pm
on a Friday :-)
Is that somehow different from recording it before 7pm?
Note the smiley but what I meant was that Thames had the London
franchise until 7 pm Friday and LWT from then on. If the show were
recorded before 7 pm, LWT would not be a franchise holder.
Scott <newsgroups@gefion.myzen.co.uk> wrote:
On Thu, 30 Dec 2021 18:52:17 +0000, Chris Green <cl@isbd.net> wrote:
Scott <newsgroups@gefion.myzen.co.uk> wrote:
You mean they were allowed to pre-record South Bank Show before 7 pm
on a Friday :-)
Is that somehow different from recording it before 7pm?
Note the smiley but what I meant was that Thames had the London
franchise until 7 pm Friday and LWT from then on. If the show were
recorded before 7 pm, LWT would not be a franchise holder.
I was wondering how "pre-record" differs from "record", that's all. :-)
I think I am getting it now. Why did the London companies uniquelyThere was nothing unique about it, both the BBC and ITV companies were interconnected and connected to their transmitters by BT.
have to be routed via BT Tower? Was this because they provided the sustaining service to all of ITV?
Why could they not have linked the LWT studio to the Thames studio and
the Thames studio to the BT Tower. This could have dispensed with BT
staff altogether and Thames could transfer control to LWT with staff
at both ends.
Or am I misunderstanding this completely?
Your local ITV company had a engineer comparing the phase of theI take it they couldn't give the job to Granada instead because this
incoming network signal, with his own local sync pulses, and modify the
phase of the local pulses to ensure a clean cut. He was doing that just
before the start of each programme, and just before each ad break. So at
least every 20 mins or so. The phase would drift over that period, even
though each company in the network had 'precision' SPGs
would involve leasing 200 miles of telephone lines for the data..
Chris Green <cl@isbd.net> wrote:
Scott <newsgroups@gefion.myzen.co.uk> wrote:
You mean they were allowed to pre-record South Bank Show before 7 pm
on a Friday :-)
Is that somehow different from recording it before 7pm?
Note the smiley but what I meant was that Thames had the London
franchise until 7 pm Friday and LWT from then on. If the show were
recorded before 7 pm, LWT would not be a franchise holder.
On Thu, 30 Dec 2021 19:24:07 +0000, Chris Green <cl@isbd.net> wrote:
Scott <newsgroups@gefion.myzen.co.uk> wrote:
On Thu, 30 Dec 2021 18:52:17 +0000, Chris Green <cl@isbd.net> wrote:
Scott <newsgroups@gefion.myzen.co.uk> wrote:
You mean they were allowed to pre-record South Bank Show before 7 pm >>>>> on a Friday :-)
Is that somehow different from recording it before 7pm?
Note the smiley but what I meant was that Thames had the London
franchise until 7 pm Friday and LWT from then on. If the show were
recorded before 7 pm, LWT would not be a franchise holder.
I was wondering how "pre-record" differs from "record", that's all. :-)
I probably wanted to emphasise I meant recording the programme before transmission (when LWT did not hold the franchise) rather than during transmission (when it did). I think my attempt at humour has fallen
flat.
On 30/12/2021 07:08 pm, Scott wrote:
Chris Green <cl@isbd.net> wrote:
Scott <newsgroups@gefion.myzen.co.uk> wrote:
You mean they were allowed to pre-record South Bank Show before 7 pm
on a Friday :-)
Is that somehow different from recording it before 7pm?
Note the smiley but what I meant was that Thames had the London
franchise until 7 pm Friday and LWT from then on. If the show were
recorded before 7 pm, LWT would not be a franchise holder.
Why not?
You don't think "Upstairs Downstairs" or "The Professionals" went out
live, do you?
On 30/12/2021 19:04, Scott wrote:
I think I am getting it now. Why did the London companies uniquelyThere was nothing unique about it, both the BBC and ITV companies were >interconnected and connected to their transmitters by BT.
have to be routed via BT Tower? Was this because they provided the
sustaining service to all of ITV?
What was unique about London (after 1968 and until 1993) was that two >different companies had the ITV franchise on a time share basis.
Actually, between 1983 and 1993 it was three, because TV-am held the 6am
to 9:25am franchise slot.
Why could they not have linked the LWT studio to the Thames studio and
the Thames studio to the BT Tower. This could have dispensed with BT
staff altogether and Thames could transfer control to LWT with staff
at both ends.
Or am I misunderstanding this completely?
They could have, but why order LWT to be routed via Thames, (that would
be like Sainsburys asking Tesco to handle their stock distribution ?)
It would have made Thames responsible for the technical integrity of
LWT's output. For the same reason, TV-am was not routed via the
'daytime' ITV companies
Your local ITV company had a engineer comparing the phase of theI take it they couldn't give the job to Granada instead because this
incoming network signal, with his own local sync pulses, and modify the
phase of the local pulses to ensure a clean cut. He was doing that just
before the start of each programme, and just before each ad break. So at >>> least every 20 mins or so. The phase would drift over that period, even
though each company in the network had 'precision' SPGs
would involve leasing 200 miles of telephone lines for the data..
I don't understand what you're saying ?
Mark Carver" <mark.carver@invalid.invalid> wrote in message news:j368mhFcjo0U1@mid.individual.net...
You're completely overthinking the problem. All you need to ensure is
that the remote source is in phase with your own local SPG at the
point you switch to them. The distance the remote signal has travelled
is totally irrelevant.
I agree that the distance that the remote signal has travelled is
irrelevant, but you still need to *make* the remote signal, by the time
it reaches the switching centre, in phase with your local SPG. You can
do that either by letting the remote end generate its own sync and then delaying the received signal until it matches your local sync; or you
can send your own sync, and compensate for the round-trip delay so the received signal will be in phase. Either approach is as good as the
other, though a single broadcaster-wide sync source seems a slightly
more elegant solution.
You're completely overthinking the problem. All you need to ensure is that the remote source is in phase with your own local SPG at the point you
switch to them. The distance the remote signal has travelled is totally irrelevant.
Mark Carver" <mark.carver@invalid.invalid> wrote in message news:j368mhFcjo0U1@mid.individual.net... You don't delay anything, instead you briefly advance or retard either
You're completely overthinking the problem. All you need to ensure is
that the remote source is in phase with your own local SPG at the
point you switch to them. The distance the remote signal has
travelled is totally irrelevant.
I agree that the distance that the remote signal has travelled is
irrelevant, but you still need to *make* the remote signal, by the
time it reaches the switching centre, in phase with your local SPG.
You can do that either by letting the remote end generate its own sync
and then delaying the received signal until it matches your local
sync; or you can send your own sync, and compensate for the round-trip
delay so the received signal will be in phase. Either approach is as
good as the other, though a single broadcaster-wide sync source seems
a slightly more elegant solution.
Your local ITV company had a engineer comparing the phase of the
incoming network signal, with his own local sync pulses, and modify the phase of the local pulses to ensure a clean cut. He was doing that just before the start of each programme, and just before each ad break. So at least every 20 mins or so. The phase would drift over that period, even though each company in the network had 'precision' SPGs
"Mark Carver" <mark.carver@invalid.invalid> wrote in message news:j36bkgFd5teU1@mid.individual.net...
You said in another post that live camera shots of the continuity
Your local ITV company had a engineer comparing the phase of the
incoming network signal, with his own local sync pulses, and modify the
phase of the local pulses to ensure a clean cut. He was doing that just
before the start of each programme, and just before each ad break. So at
least every 20 mins or so. The phase would drift over that period, even
though each company in the network had 'precision' SPGs
announcer, or captions (the shots also derived from live cameras I
presume) were shown at the start of incoming network programmes,
while the phase of the local SPG was being adjusted so it was in
sync.
In the case of adverts, presumably they'd have been switching
directly from a programme, to taped adverts, then back to the
programme again, with no locally generated live camera
feed in between, so how were things brought into sync in
this situation?
On 03/01/2022 00:59, Alexander wrote:
"Mark Carver" <mark.carver@invalid.invalid> wrote in message news:j36bkgFd5teU1@mid.individual.net...They will have re-phased themselves just before the ad break, so while
You said in another post that live camera shots of the continuity
Your local ITV company had a engineer comparing the phase of the
incoming network signal, with his own local sync pulses, and modify the
phase of the local pulses to ensure a clean cut. He was doing that just
before the start of each programme, and just before each ad break. So at >>> least every 20 mins or so. The phase would drift over that period, even
though each company in the network had 'precision' SPGs
announcer, or captions (the shots also derived from live cameras I
presume) were shown at the start of incoming network programmes,
while the phase of the local SPG was being adjusted so it was in
sync.
In the case of adverts, presumably they'd have been switching
directly from a programme, to taped adverts, then back to the
programme again, with no locally generated live camera
feed in between, so how were things brought into sync in
this situation?
they were still putting 'network' to air, that will have ensured a clean >switch back to the 'local' ads.
The amount of drift during the three minute ad break will have been
minimal, so the switch back to network will have only have had a tiny
glitch.
As you point out, they couldn't have resync'd during the actual ad break.
On Mon, 3 Jan 2022 13:25:03 +0000, Mark Carver
<mark.carver@invalid.invalid> wrote:
On 03/01/2022 00:59, Alexander wrote:Were national adverts ever inserted at network level, eg during
"Mark Carver" <mark.carver@invalid.invalid> wrote in message news:j36bkgFd5teU1@mid.individual.net...They will have re-phased themselves just before the ad break, so while
You said in another post that live camera shots of the continuity
Your local ITV company had a engineer comparing the phase of the
incoming network signal, with his own local sync pulses, and modify the >>>> phase of the local pulses to ensure a clean cut. He was doing that just >>>> before the start of each programme, and just before each ad break. So at >>>> least every 20 mins or so. The phase would drift over that period, even >>>> though each company in the network had 'precision' SPGs
announcer, or captions (the shots also derived from live cameras I
presume) were shown at the start of incoming network programmes,
while the phase of the local SPG was being adjusted so it was in
sync.
In the case of adverts, presumably they'd have been switching
directly from a programme, to taped adverts, then back to the
programme again, with no locally generated live camera
feed in between, so how were things brought into sync in
this situation?
they were still putting 'network' to air, that will have ensured a clean
switch back to the 'local' ads.
The amount of drift during the three minute ad break will have been
minimal, so the switch back to network will have only have had a tiny
glitch.
As you point out, they couldn't have resync'd during the actual ad break.
football or network news, or always by the local contractor?
On 03/01/2022 18:09, JNugent wrote:
Were national adverts ever inserted at network level, eg duringNo, always by the local contractors.
football or network news, or always by the local contractor?
Even when it was the same ad in all regions at the same time. Remember
the three minute long 'Made by Robots' Fiat ad that appeared in the
middle of News at Ten ?
Did TV-AM (the only truly national ITV broadcaster) operate its own
advert sales and playout?
Yes, though two playout centres. One at Camden Lock (at the studios) an
other at Knutsford in Cheshire for the northern etc and Scottish
transmitters
Were national adverts ever inserted at network level, eg duringNo, always by the local contractors.
football or network news, or always by the local contractor?
Did TV-AM (the only truly national ITV broadcaster) operate its own
advert sales and playout?
On 03/01/2022 06:07 pm, Scott wrote:
On Mon, 3 Jan 2022 13:25:03 +0000, Mark Carver
<mark.carver@invalid.invalid> wrote:
On 03/01/2022 00:59, Alexander wrote:Were national adverts ever inserted at network level, eg during
"Mark Carver" <mark.carver@invalid.invalid> wrote in message news:j36bkgFd5teU1@mid.individual.net...They will have re-phased themselves just before the ad break, so while
You said in another post that live camera shots of the continuity
Your local ITV company had a engineer comparing the phase of the
incoming network signal, with his own local sync pulses, and modify the >>>>> phase of the local pulses to ensure a clean cut. He was doing that just >>>>> before the start of each programme, and just before each ad break. So at >>>>> least every 20 mins or so. The phase would drift over that period, even >>>>> though each company in the network had 'precision' SPGs
announcer, or captions (the shots also derived from live cameras I
presume) were shown at the start of incoming network programmes,
while the phase of the local SPG was being adjusted so it was in
sync.
In the case of adverts, presumably they'd have been switching
directly from a programme, to taped adverts, then back to the
programme again, with no locally generated live camera
feed in between, so how were things brought into sync in
this situation?
they were still putting 'network' to air, that will have ensured a clean >>> switch back to the 'local' ads.
The amount of drift during the three minute ad break will have been
minimal, so the switch back to network will have only have had a tiny
glitch.
As you point out, they couldn't have resync'd during the actual ad break. >>>
football or network news, or always by the local contractor?
Did TV-AM (the only truly national ITV broadcaster) operate its own
advert sales and playout?
other at Knutsford in Cheshire for the northern etc and ScottishDid they regionalise the adverts, and did it follow ITV regions?
transmitters
On Mon, 3 Jan 2022 18:09:43 +0000, JNugent <jennings&co@fastmail.fm>Yes. For C4's first 10 years the ITV companies had to finance it
wrote:
On 03/01/2022 06:07 pm, Scott wrote:Did the ITV companies handle adverts for Channel 4 when it started?
On Mon, 3 Jan 2022 13:25:03 +0000, Mark CarverDid TV-AM (the only truly national ITV broadcaster) operate its own
<mark.carver@invalid.invalid> wrote:
On 03/01/2022 00:59, Alexander wrote:Were national adverts ever inserted at network level, eg during
"Mark Carver" <mark.carver@invalid.invalid> wrote in message news:j36bkgFd5teU1@mid.individual.net...They will have re-phased themselves just before the ad break, so while >>>> they were still putting 'network' to air, that will have ensured a clean >>>> switch back to the 'local' ads.
Your local ITV company had a engineer comparing the phase of theYou said in another post that live camera shots of the continuity
incoming network signal, with his own local sync pulses, and modify the >>>>>> phase of the local pulses to ensure a clean cut. He was doing that just >>>>>> before the start of each programme, and just before each ad break. So at >>>>>> least every 20 mins or so. The phase would drift over that period, even >>>>>> though each company in the network had 'precision' SPGs
announcer, or captions (the shots also derived from live cameras I
presume) were shown at the start of incoming network programmes,
while the phase of the local SPG was being adjusted so it was in
sync.
In the case of adverts, presumably they'd have been switching
directly from a programme, to taped adverts, then back to the
programme again, with no locally generated live camera
feed in between, so how were things brought into sync in
this situation?
The amount of drift during the three minute ad break will have been
minimal, so the switch back to network will have only have had a tiny
glitch.
As you point out, they couldn't have resync'd during the actual ad break. >>>>
football or network news, or always by the local contractor?
advert sales and playout?
On 03/01/2022 00:59, Alexander wrote:
You said in another post that live camera shots of the continuityThey will have re-phased themselves just before the ad break, so while
announcer, or captions (the shots also derived from live cameras I
presume) were shown at the start of incoming network programmes,
while the phase of the local SPG was being adjusted so it was in
sync.
In the case of adverts, presumably they'd have been switching
directly from a programme, to taped adverts, then back to the
programme again, with no locally generated live camera
feed in between, so how were things brought into sync in
this situation?
they were still putting 'network' to air, that will have ensured a clean switch back to the 'local' ads.
The amount of drift during the three minute ad break will have been
minimal, so the switch back to network will have only have had a tiny glitch.
As you point out, they couldn't have resync'd during the actual ad break.
"Mark Carver" <mark.carver@invalid.invalid> wrote in message news:j3gbpgFa9diU1@mid.individual.net...
On 03/01/2022 00:59, Alexander wrote:I guess my question was, how would they have synchronised the local
You said in another post that live camera shots of the continuityThey will have re-phased themselves just before the ad break, so while
announcer, or captions (the shots also derived from live cameras I
presume) were shown at the start of incoming network programmes,
while the phase of the local SPG was being adjusted so it was in
sync.
In the case of adverts, presumably they'd have been switching
directly from a programme, to taped adverts, then back to the
programme again, with no locally generated live camera
feed in between, so how were things brought into sync in
this situation?
they were still putting 'network' to air, that will have ensured a clean
switch back to the 'local' ads.
The amount of drift during the three minute ad break will have been
minimal, so the switch back to network will have only have had a tiny
glitch.
As you point out, they couldn't have resync'd during the actual ad break.
video tape playback (for ads) with a remote incoming programme feed?
"Mark Carver" <mark.carver@invalid.invalid> wrote in message news:j3gbpgFa9diU1@mid.individual.net...
On 03/01/2022 00:59, Alexander wrote:
You said in another post that live camera shots of the continuityThey will have re-phased themselves just before the ad break, so while
announcer, or captions (the shots also derived from live cameras I
presume) were shown at the start of incoming network programmes, while
the phase of the local SPG was being adjusted so it was in sync.
In the case of adverts, presumably they'd have been switching directly
from a programme, to taped adverts, then back to the programme again,
with no locally generated live camera feed in between, so how were
things brought into sync in this situation?
they were still putting 'network' to air, that will have ensured a
clean switch back to the 'local' ads. The amount of drift during the
three minute ad break will have been minimal, so the switch back to
network will have only have had a tiny glitch.
As you point out, they couldn't have resync'd during the actual ad
break.
I guess my question was, how would they have synchronised the local
video tape playback (for ads) with a remote incoming programme feed?
We're not talking about the signals from the transmitters being
synchronised.
"Mark Carver" <mark.carver@invalid.invalid> wrote in message news:j3gbpgFa9diU1@mid.individual.net...
On 03/01/2022 00:59, Alexander wrote:
You said in another post that live camera shots of the continuityThey will have re-phased themselves just before the ad break, so while
announcer, or captions (the shots also derived from live cameras I
presume) were shown at the start of incoming network programmes,
while the phase of the local SPG was being adjusted so it was in
sync.
In the case of adverts, presumably they'd have been switching
directly from a programme, to taped adverts, then back to the
programme again, with no locally generated live camera
feed in between, so how were things brought into sync in
this situation?
they were still putting 'network' to air, that will have ensured a clean switch back to the 'local' ads.
The amount of drift during the three minute ad break will have been minimal, so the switch back to network will have only have had a tiny glitch.
As you point out, they couldn't have resync'd during the actual ad break.
I guess my question was, how would they have synchronised the local
video tape playback (for ads) with a remote incoming programme feed?
Alexander <none@nowhere.fr> wrote:
"Mark Carver" <mark.carver@invalid.invalid> wrote in message news:j3gbpgFa9diU1@mid.individual.net...I've been sitting watching this thread go by and wondering *why* do
On 03/01/2022 00:59, Alexander wrote:video tape playback (for ads) with a remote incoming programme feed?
You said in another post that live camera shots of the continuityThey will have re-phased themselves just before the ad break, so while
announcer, or captions (the shots also derived from live cameras I
presume) were shown at the start of incoming network programmes,
while the phase of the local SPG was being adjusted so it was in
sync.
In the case of adverts, presumably they'd have been switching
directly from a programme, to taped adverts, then back to the
programme again, with no locally generated live camera
feed in between, so how were things brought into sync in
this situation?
they were still putting 'network' to air, that will have ensured a clean >>> switch back to the 'local' ads.
The amount of drift during the three minute ad break will have been
minimal, so the switch back to network will have only have had a tiny
glitch.
As you point out, they couldn't have resync'd during the actual ad break. >> I guess my question was, how would they have synchronised the local
programs going out on different transmitters need to be synchronised
at all?
On 03/01/2022 18:47, Scott wrote:Yes, though two playout centres. One at >Camden Lock (at the studios) an
other at Knutsford in Cheshire for the northern etc and ScottishDid they regionalise the adverts, and did it follow ITV regions?
transmitters
Yes, but no. Bigger regions.
By the way, forgot to say, Channel TV took its national ads from their >off-air mainland feed. Westward, then TSW, then TVS, then Meridian.
The mainland company sold the national ad space for them
On 04/01/2022 10:59, Mark Carver wrote:
We're not talking about the signals from the transmitters being synchronised.
Though in the days of analogue TV, transmitters had offsets which were supposed to reduce the effect of interference from other transmitters on
the same frequency so it was important to keep reasonable stability.
In some cases they had to have the transmitter locked to GPS to ensure precise frequency stability. We had one like that and had the cost of
new transmitters, GPS receivers, our labour etc paid by a foreign broadcaster.
We're not talking about the signals from the transmitters being
synchronised.
Though in the days of analogue TV, transmitters had offsets which were supposed to reduce the effect of interference from other transmitters
on the same frequency so it was important to keep reasonable stability.
In some cases they had to have the transmitter locked to GPS to ensure precise frequency stability. We had one like that and had the cost of
new transmitters, GPS receivers, our labour etc paid by a foreign broadcaster.
On Mon, 3 Jan 2022 20:06:57 +0000, Mark CarverNo, the local ads were sold and transmitted (and normally produced) by
<mark.carver@invalid.invalid> wrote:
On 03/01/2022 18:47, Scott wrote:Yes, though two playout centres. One atI think I remember that, but how did they deal with local ads? Were
Camden Lock (at the studios) an
Yes, but no. Bigger regions.other at Knutsford in Cheshire for the northern etc and ScottishDid they regionalise the adverts, and did it follow ITV regions?
transmitters
By the way, forgot to say, Channel TV took its national ads from their
off-air mainland feed. Westward, then TSW, then TVS, then Meridian.
The mainland company sold the national ad space for them
they sold by Westward et al also?
On 03/01/2022 21:54, Alexander wrote:
I guess my question was, how would they have synchronised the localThe local VTR, telecines, vision mixer, cameras etc were all locked to
video tape playback (for ads) with a remote incoming programme feed?
the local Master SPG, and it was this that was 'drifted' to be in phase
with the incoming network.
That's why the M-SPG couldn't be drifted while the VTRs or telecines
were on air, because their servos would have become unstable.
On Mon, 3 Jan 2022 18:09:43 +0000, JNugent <jennings&co@fastmail.fm>
wrote:
On 03/01/2022 06:07 pm, Scott wrote:
On Mon, 3 Jan 2022 13:25:03 +0000, Mark Carver
<mark.carver@invalid.invalid> wrote:
On 03/01/2022 00:59, Alexander wrote:Were national adverts ever inserted at network level, eg during
"Mark Carver" <mark.carver@invalid.invalid> wrote in message news:j36bkgFd5teU1@mid.individual.net...They will have re-phased themselves just before the ad break, so while >>>> they were still putting 'network' to air, that will have ensured a clean >>>> switch back to the 'local' ads.
You said in another post that live camera shots of the continuity
Your local ITV company had a engineer comparing the phase of the
incoming network signal, with his own local sync pulses, and modify the >>>>>> phase of the local pulses to ensure a clean cut. He was doing that just >>>>>> before the start of each programme, and just before each ad break. So at >>>>>> least every 20 mins or so. The phase would drift over that period, even >>>>>> though each company in the network had 'precision' SPGs
announcer, or captions (the shots also derived from live cameras I
presume) were shown at the start of incoming network programmes,
while the phase of the local SPG was being adjusted so it was in
sync.
In the case of adverts, presumably they'd have been switching
directly from a programme, to taped adverts, then back to the
programme again, with no locally generated live camera
feed in between, so how were things brought into sync in
this situation?
The amount of drift during the three minute ad break will have been
minimal, so the switch back to network will have only have had a tiny
glitch.
As you point out, they couldn't have resync'd during the actual ad break. >>>>
football or network news, or always by the local contractor?
Did TV-AM (the only truly national ITV broadcaster) operate its own
advert sales and playout?
Did the ITV companies handle adverts for Channel 4 when it started?
"Mark Carver" <mark.carver@invalid.invalid> wrote in message news:j3idkeFm7kaU1@mid.individual.net...
On 03/01/2022 21:54, Alexander wrote:Understood. But the video tapes would've had their own sync
I guess my question was, how would they have synchronised the localThe local VTR, telecines, vision mixer, cameras etc were all locked to
video tape playback (for ads) with a remote incoming programme feed?
the local Master SPG, and it was this that was 'drifted' to be in phase
with the incoming network.
That's why the M-SPG couldn't be drifted while the VTRs or telecines
were on air, because their servos would have become unstable.
signals recorded on the tape, presumably? So I guess the
playback equipment calibrated itself such that the incoming
sync pulses from the SPG were synchronised with those on the
tape?
Even when component based BetaCam came out early 80s, its use was still restricted to news. It wasn't until the late 80s when BetaSP (and MII)
came along that it was used for promos.
Full use of cassettte based tape for all programmes didn't happen until
the digital tape formats DigiBeta and D2 (Sony) and D3, and D5 (Panny)
came along in the early 90s.
On Mon, 27 Dec 2021 11:39:34 +0000, Mark CarverI recall the IBA didn't allow your peers in ITV to use BetaSP for
<mark.carver@invalid.invalid> wrote:
Even when component based BetaCam came out early 80s, its use was stillWe used Beta SP for network programmes in 91 and 92, both in the studio
restricted to news. It wasn't until the late 80s when BetaSP (and MII)
came along that it was used for promos.
Full use of cassettte based tape for all programmes didn't happen until
the digital tape formats DigiBeta and D2 (Sony) and D3, and D5 (Panny)
came along in the early 90s.
e.g. Hartbeat and The Really Wild Show, and on OBs e.g. Antiques Roadshow.
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