• Aspect ratio

    From John Armstrong@21:1/5 to All on Wed Apr 12 09:06:23 2023
    The TV wide screen aspect ratio was settled, and presumably agreed, as
    16:9 some considerable time ago.

    Why then are so many tv programmes made with different aspect ratios,
    so that my tv displays broad black stripes at the top and bottom of
    the screen?

    Am I alone in finding this annoying?

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  • From alan_m@21:1/5 to John Armstrong on Wed Apr 12 09:26:00 2023
    On 12/04/2023 09:06, John Armstrong wrote:
    The TV wide screen aspect ratio was settled, and presumably agreed, as
    16:9 some considerable time ago.

    Why then are so many tv programmes made with different aspect ratios,
    so that my tv displays broad black stripes at the top and bottom of
    the screen?

    Am I alone in finding this annoying?

    You probably have your TV (or set top box) configured in the most
    annoying (for you) way.

    Older tv programs were made in a 4:3 aspect ratio
    Films are neither 4:3 or 16:9

    --
    mailto : news {at} admac {dot} myzen {dot} co {dot} uk

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  • From Jeff Layman@21:1/5 to John Armstrong on Wed Apr 12 09:34:25 2023
    On 12/04/2023 09:06, John Armstrong wrote:
    The TV wide screen aspect ratio was settled, and presumably agreed, as
    16:9 some considerable time ago.

    Why then are so many tv programmes made with different aspect ratios,
    so that my tv displays broad black stripes at the top and bottom of
    the screen?

    Am I alone in finding this annoying?

    I can only assume this was for a 21:9 ratio film (perhaps filmed in
    Panavision or Cinemascope). They aren't common IME.

    The main problem is that old programmes were made in 4:3 ratio, and
    modern ones are 16:9. Most are detected automatically and the TV will
    show black bands at the sides when a 4:3 programme is received. The most annoying channel is That"s TV, which for some reason shows 4:3 music
    videos in what appears to be 14:9 format. This makes the picture too
    wide, and bodies appear too wide. If manually changed to 16:9 they are
    too narrow! Quite why they do this is very strange, as they show old 70s
    and 80s programmes such as "Till Death Us Do Part" in the correct 4:3 ratio.

    --

    Jeff

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  • From Unsteadyken@21:1/5 to All on Wed Apr 12 09:19:20 2023
    In article <q6pc3id0gpk7j6ll64gpvok8e45u83pvdb@4ax.com>,

    John Armstrong says...

    my tv displays broad black stripes at the top and bottom of
    the screen?



    I cannot recall seeing this on any broadcast programme.
    Can you give an example?

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  • From Andy Burns@21:1/5 to John Armstrong on Wed Apr 12 12:14:46 2023
    John Armstrong wrote:

    Why then are so many tv programmes made with different aspect ratios,
    so that my tv displays broad black stripes at the top and bottom of
    the screen?

    arty-farty types who forget that e.g. Top Gear will be shown on TV,
    rather than the local Odeon?

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  • From Robin@21:1/5 to Jeff Layman on Wed Apr 12 12:15:30 2023
    On 12/04/2023 09:34, Jeff Layman wrote:
    On 12/04/2023 09:06, John Armstrong wrote:
    The TV wide screen aspect ratio was settled, and presumably agreed, as
    16:9 some considerable time ago.

    Why then are so many tv programmes made with different aspect ratios,
    so that my tv displays broad black stripes at the top and bottom of
    the screen?

    Am I alone in finding this annoying?

    I can only assume this was for a 21:9 ratio film (perhaps filmed in Panavision or Cinemascope). They aren't common IME.


    I find that (or thereabouts) a common aspect ratio for recent films and
    some other material. And IIRC Channel 4's Black Mirror series had 16:9,
    1.9:1, 2:1 and 2.2:1 in various programmes.



    --
    Robin
    reply-to address is (intended to be) valid

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  • From The Other John@21:1/5 to Unsteadyken on Wed Apr 12 11:24:04 2023
    On Wed, 12 Apr 2023 09:19:20 +0100, Unsteadyken wrote:

    I cannot recall seeing this on any broadcast programme. Can you give an example?

    ITV's 'Why Didn't They Ask Evans?' over the last 3 nights and many other
    dramas on BBC as well. It's not the aspect ratio of the TV, it's blanked
    off strips top and bottom of the picture with the TV in 16:9 mode.

    --
    TOJ.

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  • From NY@21:1/5 to The Other John on Wed Apr 12 13:33:04 2023
    On 12/04/2023 12:24, The Other John wrote:
    On Wed, 12 Apr 2023 09:19:20 +0100, Unsteadyken wrote:

    I cannot recall seeing this on any broadcast programme. Can you give an
    example?

    ITV's 'Why Didn't They Ask Evans?' over the last 3 nights and many other dramas on BBC as well. It's not the aspect ratio of the TV, it's blanked
    off strips top and bottom of the picture with the TV in 16:9 mode.

    Here are examples of Why Didn't They Ask Evans? and Vera (first
    recording I had to hand) which show the black band. I've seen it on
    quite a few modern TV dramas. I wonder what market it is being designed
    for, if not 16:9 TV?

    <https://i.postimg.cc/gcB3JHPK/Agatha-Christie-s-Why-Didn-t-They-Ask-Evans-1-03.png>

    <https://i.postimg.cc/YCQFdcLX/Vera-20230406-2000-010-ITV3.png>

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  • From Andy Burns@21:1/5 to Unsteadyken on Wed Apr 12 20:28:01 2023
    Unsteadyken wrote:

    I cannot recall seeing this on any broadcast programme.
    Can you give an example?

    Every episode of TopGear in the past few years has the "dramatic" scenes
    shot in 21:9

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  • From John Armstrong@21:1/5 to All on Thu Apr 13 09:27:13 2023
    On Wed, 12 Apr 2023 09:26:00 +0100, alan_m <junk@admac.myzen.co.uk>
    wrote:

    On 12/04/2023 09:06, John Armstrong wrote:
    The TV wide screen aspect ratio was settled, and presumably agreed, as
    16:9 some considerable time ago.

    Why then are so many tv programmes made with different aspect ratios,
    so that my tv displays broad black stripes at the top and bottom of
    the screen?

    Am I alone in finding this annoying?

    Thanks first to Andy Burns, NY, and The Other John for posting
    examples of what I was talking about.


    You probably have your TV (or set top box) configured in the most
    annoying (for you) way.

    Please tell me, then, how I should configure my TV and/or set top box
    - I have both - to solve the problem, because I cannot see a setting
    on either which will solve the problem.

    Older tv programs were made in a 4:3 aspect ratio
    Films are neither 4:3 or 16:9

    Cinema films were all made originally in 1.33:1 (same as 4:3) and the
    vast majority were still being made in that aspect ratio when TVs were
    first sold. That, presumably, was why TV programme and set makers
    used the 4:3 aspect ratio.

    Please note my complaint is not about makers of films for the cinema,
    but about programmes being made for showing on television.

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  • From Jim Lesurf@21:1/5 to nomail@home.org on Wed Apr 12 13:09:17 2023
    In article <u164ck$30lis$1@dont-email.me>, The Other John
    <nomail@home.org> wrote:
    On Wed, 12 Apr 2023 09:19:20 +0100, Unsteadyken wrote:

    I cannot recall seeing this on any broadcast programme. Can you give
    an example?

    ITV's 'Why Didn't They Ask Evans?' over the last 3 nights and many other dramas on BBC as well. It's not the aspect ratio of the TV, it's
    blanked off strips top and bottom of the picture with the TV in 16:9
    mode.

    One of the advantages of watching things with VLC is that you have more
    choice about forcing the aspect ratio than with any TV I've known. But if something is delberately non 16:9 then it's correct ratio will leave black regions on a 16:9 display unless you zoom up and lose some other parts.

    I'm more annoyed by the way some low-data-rate channels give poor image
    detail, etc. Can sometimes mean it isn't worth watching what might
    otherwise be enjoyed.

    Jim

    --
    Please use the address on the audiomisc page if you wish to email me. Electronics https://www.st-andrews.ac.uk/~www_pa/Scots_Guide/intro/electron.htm
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  • From Brian Gaff@21:1/5 to John Armstrong on Thu Apr 13 09:54:12 2023
    This sort of thing has been going on on film too, and as these days a lot of film is actually Digital tv, I guess its to be expected. I remember some of
    the pop videos back in the 80s were filmed in wide screen and had this
    problem on the old squarer formats, I can only suggest it is art that
    dictates it. I mean some standard conversion in the old days often resulted
    in this kind of thing, but I'd imagine that was a technical issue mainly affecting stateside sourced shows like the Andy Williams Show.
    Brian

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    "John Armstrong" <jja@blueyonder.co.uk> wrote in message news:q6pc3id0gpk7j6ll64gpvok8e45u83pvdb@4ax.com...
    The TV wide screen aspect ratio was settled, and presumably agreed, as
    16:9 some considerable time ago.

    Why then are so many tv programmes made with different aspect ratios,
    so that my tv displays broad black stripes at the top and bottom of
    the screen?

    Am I alone in finding this annoying?

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  • From Brian Gaff@21:1/5 to The Other John on Thu Apr 13 09:59:16 2023
    I suppose there are not subtitles there if you put them on?
    I cannot see this of course but a friend of mine watched a DVD of a
    country music concert around here and had to mess around a lot with settings
    of the player and TV to get the aspect ratio correct. There were circles in parts of the recording that were not quite round until you found the right settings.
    Brian

    --

    --:
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    The Sofa of Brian Gaff...
    briang1@blueyonder.co.uk
    Blind user, so no pictures please
    Note this Signature is meaningless.!
    "The Other John" <nomail@home.org> wrote in message news:u164ck$30lis$1@dont-email.me...
    On Wed, 12 Apr 2023 09:19:20 +0100, Unsteadyken wrote:

    I cannot recall seeing this on any broadcast programme. Can you give an
    example?

    ITV's 'Why Didn't They Ask Evans?' over the last 3 nights and many other dramas on BBC as well. It's not the aspect ratio of the TV, it's blanked
    off strips top and bottom of the picture with the TV in 16:9 mode.

    --
    TOJ.

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  • From Brian Gaff@21:1/5 to Andy Burns on Thu Apr 13 10:02:10 2023
    Maybe there is a sudden shortage of pixels in the world :-)
    Brian

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    Note this Signature is meaningless.!
    "Andy Burns" <usenet@andyburns.uk> wrote in message news:k9of23FhotkU1@mid.individual.net...
    Unsteadyken wrote:

    I cannot recall seeing this on any broadcast programme.
    Can you give an example?

    Every episode of TopGear in the past few years has the "dramatic" scenes
    shot in 21:9


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  • From Jeff Gaines@21:1/5 to Armstrong on Thu Apr 13 08:42:01 2023
    On 13/04/2023 in message <hief3idb0sg1f0lrsscjaa39f1aks2mk7f@4ax.com> John Armstrong wrote:

    Please tell me, then, how I should configure my TV and/or set top box
    - I have both - to solve the problem, because I cannot see a setting
    on either which will solve the problem.

    I have a Panasonic Viera and it has an "Aspect" option which gives a
    choice of zoom settings. PITA but available.

    --
    Jeff Gaines Dorset UK
    If it's not broken, mess around with it until it is

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  • From Dickie mint@21:1/5 to John Armstrong on Thu Apr 13 13:32:20 2023
    On 12/04/2023 09:06, John Armstrong wrote:
    The TV wide screen aspect ratio was settled, and presumably agreed, as
    16:9 some considerable time ago.

    Why then are so many tv programmes made with different aspect ratios,
    so that my tv displays broad black stripes at the top and bottom of
    the screen?

    Am I alone in finding this annoying?

    Ah the old 'must make it look like a film' attitude of a lot of
    directors. Along with loud peaky 'background' music.

    Their childish minds think it look dramatic!

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  • From NY@21:1/5 to Jeff Gaines on Thu Apr 13 14:24:27 2023
    On 13/04/2023 09:42, Jeff Gaines wrote:
    On 13/04/2023 in message <hief3idb0sg1f0lrsscjaa39f1aks2mk7f@4ax.com>
    John Armstrong wrote:

    Please tell me, then, how I should configure my TV and/or set top box
    - I have both - to solve the problem, because I cannot see a setting
    on either which will solve the problem.

    I have a Panasonic Viera and it has an "Aspect" option which gives a
    choice of zoom settings. PITA but available.

    If the "Aspect" control is not to stretch the picture horizontally by a different amount to vertically (which is a hanging offence!!) then it
    can only do it by applying the same scale factor to both axes, which
    means cutting off left and right of the picture in order to make the
    21:9 picture fill the whole of the screen height.

    I'm sure a lot of us would prefer that a programme which is made for TV
    (ie excluding made-for-cinema films) used the full 16:9 frame, without
    masking off the top and bottom (and composing the shots accordingly).

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  • From Robin@21:1/5 to All on Thu Apr 13 15:26:02 2023
    On 13/04/2023 14:24, NY wrote:
    On 13/04/2023 09:42, Jeff Gaines wrote:
    On 13/04/2023 in message <hief3idb0sg1f0lrsscjaa39f1aks2mk7f@4ax.com>
    John Armstrong wrote:

    Please tell me, then, how I should configure my TV and/or set top box
    - I have both - to solve the problem, because I cannot see a setting
    on either which will solve the problem.

    I have a Panasonic Viera and it has an "Aspect" option which gives a
    choice of zoom settings. PITA but available.

    If the "Aspect" control is not to stretch the picture horizontally by a different amount to vertically (which is a hanging offence!!) then it
    can only do it by applying the same scale factor to both axes, which
    means cutting off left and right of the picture in order to make the
    21:9 picture fill the whole of the screen height.

    I'm sure a lot of us would prefer that a programme which is made for TV
    (ie excluding made-for-cinema films) used the full 16:9 frame, without masking off the top and bottom (and composing the shots accordingly).

    FSVO of "us". I'm fairly confident a lot of other people would disagree because they watch on screens with other aspect ratios or think creative
    types should be free to be creative.

    There's also the little matter of defining "made for TV".

    --
    Robin
    reply-to address is (intended to be) valid

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  • From Jeff Gaines@21:1/5 to 4tOcnRSPnMkWn6X5nZ2dnZfqnPqdnZ2d@br on Thu Apr 13 14:48:12 2023
    On 13/04/2023 in message
    <4tOcnRSPnMkWn6X5nZ2dnZfqnPqdnZ2d@brightview.co.uk> NY wrote:

    On 13/04/2023 09:42, Jeff Gaines wrote:
    On 13/04/2023 in message <hief3idb0sg1f0lrsscjaa39f1aks2mk7f@4ax.com>
    John Armstrong wrote:

    Please tell me, then, how I should configure my TV and/or set top box
    - I have both - to solve the problem, because I cannot see a setting
    on either which will solve the problem.

    I have a Panasonic Viera and it has an "Aspect" option which gives a
    choice of zoom settings. PITA but available.

    If the "Aspect" control is not to stretch the picture horizontally by a >different amount to vertically (which is a hanging offence!!) then it can >only do it by applying the same scale factor to both axes, which means >cutting off left and right of the picture in order to make the 21:9
    picture fill the whole of the screen height.

    I'm sure a lot of us would prefer that a programme which is made for TV
    (ie excluding made-for-cinema films) used the full 16:9 frame, without >masking off the top and bottom (and composing the shots accordingly).

    It's a compromise so inevitably you will lose something.

    --
    Jeff Gaines Dorset UK
    You can't tell which way the train went by looking at the tracks

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  • From R. Mark Clayton@21:1/5 to John Armstrong on Thu Apr 13 09:36:21 2023
    On Wednesday, 12 April 2023 at 09:06:27 UTC+1, John Armstrong wrote:
    The TV wide screen aspect ratio was settled, and presumably agreed, as
    16:9 some considerable time ago.

    Why then are so many tv programmes made with different aspect ratios,
    so that my tv displays broad black stripes at the top and bottom of
    the screen?

    Am I alone in finding this annoying?

    This can happen with films, often made 18:9 or 21:9, very unusual on regular programming.

    Conversely old material (such as Elizabeth I shown on BBC 4 last night) was 4:3 and had black bars down the sides.

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  • From Max Demian@21:1/5 to Robin on Thu Apr 13 17:43:29 2023
    On 13/04/2023 15:26, Robin wrote:
    On 13/04/2023 14:24, NY wrote:

    If the "Aspect" control is not to stretch the picture horizontally by
    a different amount to vertically (which is a hanging offence!!) then
    it can only do it by applying the same scale factor to both axes,
    which means cutting off left and right of the picture in order to make
    the 21:9 picture fill the whole of the screen height.

    I'm sure a lot of us would prefer that a programme which is made for
    TV (ie excluding made-for-cinema films) used the full 16:9 frame,
    without masking off the top and bottom (and composing the shots
    accordingly).

    FSVO of "us".  I'm fairly confident a lot of other people would disagree because they watch on screens with other aspect ratios or think creative types should be free to be creative.

    What other screens? A few years ago there were one or two TVs with 20:9
    (or so) aspect, but I think you'll find that they are all 16:9 nowadays.

    There's also the little matter of defining "made for TV".

    "Never seriously intended to be shown anywhere else."

    --
    Max Demian

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  • From Max Demian@21:1/5 to R. Mark Clayton on Thu Apr 13 17:51:34 2023
    On 13/04/2023 17:36, R. Mark Clayton wrote:
    On Wednesday, 12 April 2023 at 09:06:27 UTC+1, John Armstrong wrote:
    The TV wide screen aspect ratio was settled, and presumably agreed, as
    16:9 some considerable time ago.

    Why then are so many tv programmes made with different aspect ratios,
    so that my tv displays broad black stripes at the top and bottom of
    the screen?

    Am I alone in finding this annoying?

    This can happen with films, often made 18:9 or 21:9, very unusual on regular programming.

    We know that is a problem with films: CinemaScope is 2.35:1. We accept
    that. It's programmes made exclusively for TV where this is an issue.

    Conversely old material (such as Elizabeth I shown on BBC 4 last night) was 4:3 and had black bars down the sides.

    Of course. That's inevitable unless they decide to crop top and bottom
    or stretch the image. (The horror!)

    --
    Max Demian

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  • From Robin@21:1/5 to Max Demian on Thu Apr 13 18:16:05 2023
    On 13/04/2023 17:43, Max Demian wrote:
    On 13/04/2023 15:26, Robin wrote:
    On 13/04/2023 14:24, NY wrote:

    If the "Aspect" control is not to stretch the picture horizontally by
    a different amount to vertically (which is a hanging offence!!) then
    it can only do it by applying the same scale factor to both axes,
    which means cutting off left and right of the picture in order to
    make the 21:9 picture fill the whole of the screen height.

    I'm sure a lot of us would prefer that a programme which is made for
    TV (ie excluding made-for-cinema films) used the full 16:9 frame,
    without masking off the top and bottom (and composing the shots
    accordingly).

    FSVO of "us".  I'm fairly confident a lot of other people would
    disagree because they watch on screens with other aspect ratios or
    think creative types should be free to be creative.

    What other screens? A few years ago there were one or two TVs with 20:9
    (or so) aspect, but I think you'll find that they are all 16:9 nowadays.

    phones (plus some monitors, laptops and tablets)


    There's also the little matter of defining "made for TV".

    "Never seriously intended to be shown anywhere else."

    I'm happy with that as it excludes everything intended also for
    streaming on iPlayer, ITVX, All4 etc etc

    --
    Robin
    reply-to address is (intended to be) valid

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  • From Jim Lesurf@21:1/5 to richard_taylor01@yahoo.co.uk on Thu Apr 13 15:00:13 2023
    In article <k9qb2kFqbt2U2@mid.individual.net>, Dickie mint <richard_taylor01@yahoo.co.uk> wrote:

    Ah the old 'must make it look like a film' attitude of a lot of
    directors. Along with loud peaky 'background' music.

    Their childish minds think it look dramatic!

    Also IIRC when 16:9 TV was relatively new in the UK, some people moaned
    about seeing blank/black screen either side of rebroadcast 4:3 material.

    There are two stations I noticed on Freeview recently that show old pop
    music videos... all stretched absurdly into 16:9.

    Jim

    --
    Please use the address on the audiomisc page if you wish to email me. Electronics https://www.st-andrews.ac.uk/~www_pa/Scots_Guide/intro/electron.htm
    biog http://jcgl.orpheusweb.co.uk/history/ups_and_downs.html
    Audio Misc http://www.audiomisc.co.uk/index.html

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  • From Jeff Layman@21:1/5 to Jim Lesurf on Thu Apr 13 19:29:55 2023
    On 13/04/2023 15:00, Jim Lesurf wrote:


    There are two stations I noticed on Freeview recently that show old pop
    music videos... all stretched absurdly into 16:9.

    See my earlier post.

    --

    Jeff

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  • From Dave W@21:1/5 to All on Thu Apr 13 20:45:25 2023
    T24gV2VkLCAxMiBBcHIgMjAyMyAxMToyNDowNCAtMDAwMCAoVVRDKSwgVGhlIE90aGVyIEpvaG4N Cjxub21haWxAaG9tZS5vcmc+IHdyb3RlOg0KDQo+T24gV2VkLCAxMiBBcHIgMjAyMyAwOToxOToy MCArMDEwMCwgVW5zdGVhZHlrZW4gd3JvdGU6DQo+DQo+PiBJIGNhbm5vdCByZWNhbGwgc2VlaW5n IHRoaXMgb24gYW55IGJyb2FkY2FzdCBwcm9ncmFtbWUuIENhbiB5b3UgZ2l2ZSBhbg0KPj4gZXhh bXBsZT8NCj4NCj5JVFYncyAnV2h5IERpZG4ndCBUaGV5IEFzayBFdmFucz8nIG92ZXIgdGhlIGxh c3QgMyBuaWdodHMgYW5kIG1hbnkgb3RoZXIgDQo+ZHJhbWFzIG9uIEJCQyBhcyB3ZWxsLiAgSXQn cyBub3QgdGhlIGFzcGVjdCByYXRpbyBvZiB0aGUgVFYsIGl0J3MgYmxhbmtlZCANCj5vZmYgc3Ry aXBzIHRvcCBhbmQgYm90dG9tIG9mIHRoZSBwaWN0dXJlIHdpdGggdGhlIFRWIGluIDE2OjkgbW9k ZS4NCg0KWW91IHJlbWluZGVkIG1lIHRoYXQgSSByZWNvcmRlZCB0aGlzIHByb2dyYW1tZSBidXQg aGF2ZW4ndCB5ZXQgd2F0Y2hlZA0KaXQuIEkgaGF2ZSBzdGFydGVkIHdhdGNoaW5nIHRoZSByZWNv cmRpbmcgbm93IGFuZCBpdCdzIHBlcmZlY3Qgb24gbXkNCjE2OjkgVFYgc2V0IHRvICdmdWxsJyBh c3BlY3QgcmF0aW8gLSBubyBibGFjayBiYXJzIHRvcCBhbmQgYm90dG9tLg0KLS0gDQpEYXZlIFcN Cg==

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  • From Dave W@21:1/5 to All on Thu Apr 13 20:53:48 2023
    T24gVGh1LCAxMyBBcHIgMjAyMyAyMDo0NToyNSArMDEwMCwgRGF2ZSBXIDxkYXZld2kxMUB5YWhv by5jby51az4NCndyb3RlOg0KDQo+T24gV2VkLCAxMiBBcHIgMjAyMyAxMToyNDowNCAtMDAwMCAo VVRDKSwgVGhlIE90aGVyIEpvaG4NCj48bm9tYWlsQGhvbWUub3JnPiB3cm90ZToNCj4NCj4+T24g V2VkLCAxMiBBcHIgMjAyMyAwOToxOToyMCArMDEwMCwgVW5zdGVhZHlrZW4gd3JvdGU6DQo+Pg0K Pj4+IEkgY2Fubm90IHJlY2FsbCBzZWVpbmcgdGhpcyBvbiBhbnkgYnJvYWRjYXN0IHByb2dyYW1t ZS4gQ2FuIHlvdSBnaXZlIGFuDQo+Pj4gZXhhbXBsZT8NCj4+DQo+PklUVidzICdXaHkgRGlkbid0 IFRoZXkgQXNrIEV2YW5zPycgb3ZlciB0aGUgbGFzdCAzIG5pZ2h0cyBhbmQgbWFueSBvdGhlciAN Cj4+ZHJhbWFzIG9uIEJCQyBhcyB3ZWxsLiAgSXQncyBub3QgdGhlIGFzcGVjdCByYXRpbyBvZiB0 aGUgVFYsIGl0J3MgYmxhbmtlZCANCj4+b2ZmIHN0cmlwcyB0b3AgYW5kIGJvdHRvbSBvZiB0aGUg cGljdHVyZSB3aXRoIHRoZSBUViBpbiAxNjo5IG1vZGUuDQo+DQo+WW91IHJlbWluZGVkIG1lIHRo YXQgSSByZWNvcmRlZCB0aGlzIHByb2dyYW1tZSBidXQgaGF2ZW4ndCB5ZXQgd2F0Y2hlZA0KPml0 LiBJIGhhdmUgc3RhcnRlZCB3YXRjaGluZyB0aGUgcmVjb3JkaW5nIG5vdyBhbmQgaXQncyBwZXJm ZWN0IG9uIG15DQo+MTY6OSBUViBzZXQgdG8gJ2Z1bGwnIGFzcGVjdCByYXRpbyAtIG5vIGJsYWNr IGJhcnMgdG9wIGFuZCBib3R0b20uDQoNClNvcnJ5LCBhcyB5b3Ugd2VyZSAtIEkgc2VlIHRoZSBi bGFjayBiYXJzIG5vdy4gSXQgc2VlbXMgYXMgaWYgdGhlIHRvcA0KYW5kIGJvdHRvbSBvZiB0aGUg cGljdHVyZSBpcyBjdXQgb2ZmLCBiZWNhdXNlIHRoZSBpdHYxIGxvZ28gaXMNCnVuY2hhcmFjdGVy aXN0Y2FsbHkgY2xvc2UgdG8gdGhlIHRvcCB2aXNpYmxlIGVkZ2UuDQotLSANCkRhdmUgVw0K

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
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  • From Ashley Booth@21:1/5 to Robin on Fri Apr 14 08:03:25 2023
    Robin wrote:

    On 13/04/2023 17:43, Max Demian wrote:
    On 13/04/2023 15:26, Robin wrote:
    On 13/04/2023 14:24, NY wrote:

    If the "Aspect" control is not to stretch the picture
    horizontally by a different amount to vertically (which is a
    hanging offence!!) then it can only do it by applying the same
    scale factor to both axes, which means cutting off left and
    right of the picture in order to make the 21:9 picture fill
    the whole of the screen height.

    I'm sure a lot of us would prefer that a programme which is
    made for TV (ie excluding made-for-cinema films) used the full
    16:9 frame, without masking off the top and bottom (and
    composing the shots accordingly).

    FSVO of "us".  I'm fairly confident a lot of other people would
    disagree because they watch on screens with other aspect ratios
    or think creative types should be free to be creative.

    What other screens? A few years ago there were one or two TVs with
    20:9 (or so) aspect, but I think you'll find that they are all
    16:9 nowadays.

    phones (plus some monitors, laptops and tablets)


    There's also the little matter of defining "made for TV".

    "Never seriously intended to be shown anywhere else."

    I'm happy with that as it excludes everything intended also for
    streaming on iPlayer, ITVX, All4 etc etc

    There might be a case of shooting it for phones in 9x16! :)

    --

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
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  • From John Armstrong@21:1/5 to me@privacy.net on Fri Apr 14 08:59:19 2023
    On Thu, 13 Apr 2023 14:24:27 +0100, NY <me@privacy.net> wrote:

    On 13/04/2023 09:42, Jeff Gaines wrote:
    On 13/04/2023 in message <hief3idb0sg1f0lrsscjaa39f1aks2mk7f@4ax.com>
    John Armstrong wrote:

    Please tell me, then, how I should configure my TV and/or set top box
    - I have both - to solve the problem, because I cannot see a setting
    on either which will solve the problem.

    I have a Panasonic Viera and it has an "Aspect" option which gives a
    choice of zoom settings. PITA but available.

    If the "Aspect" control is not to stretch the picture horizontally by a >different amount to vertically (which is a hanging offence!!) then it
    can only do it by applying the same scale factor to both axes, which
    means cutting off left and right of the picture in order to make the
    21:9 picture fill the whole of the screen height.

    I'm sure a lot of us would prefer that a programme which is made for TV
    (ie excluding made-for-cinema films) used the full 16:9 frame, without >masking off the top and bottom (and composing the shots accordingly).

    Exactly!

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  • From Roderick Stewart@21:1/5 to jja@blueyonder.co.uk on Fri Apr 14 10:22:42 2023
    On Thu, 13 Apr 2023 09:27:13 +0100, John Armstrong
    <jja@blueyonder.co.uk> wrote:

    Cinema films were all made originally in 1.33:1 (same as 4:3) and the
    vast majority were still being made in that aspect ratio when TVs were
    first sold. That, presumably, was why TV programme and set makers
    used the 4:3 aspect ratio.

    The BBC originally used 5:4. I'm not sure of the exact date they
    changed to 4:3 but I think it was around 1950. As far as I know they
    just changed it without any fuss or publicity, probably reasoning that
    any discrepancy would be within the normal maladjustment range of TV
    sets of the time so nobody would notice anyway.

    Rod.

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    * Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)
  • From Roderick Stewart@21:1/5 to Robin on Fri Apr 14 10:28:31 2023
    On Thu, 13 Apr 2023 18:16:05 +0100, Robin <rbw@outlook.com> wrote:

    There's also the little matter of defining "made for TV".

    "Never seriously intended to be shown anywhere else."

    I'm happy with that as it excludes everything intended also for
    streaming on iPlayer, ITVX, All4 etc etc

    Wherever it's streamed, or however it's broadcast, it's going to end
    up being shown on a screen.

    What shape are most screens?

    Rod.

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  • From Roderick Stewart@21:1/5 to max_demian@bigfoot.com on Fri Apr 14 10:37:03 2023
    On Thu, 13 Apr 2023 17:51:34 +0100, Max Demian
    <max_demian@bigfoot.com> wrote:

    Conversely old material (such as Elizabeth I shown on BBC 4 last night) was 4:3 and had black bars down the sides.

    Of course. That's inevitable unless they decide to crop top and bottom
    or stretch the image. (The horror!)

    4:3 material was made for 4:3 TV sets, which was a reasonable thing to
    do at the time because it was the right shape for the screen.

    Making (e.g.) 21:9 material for 16:9 TV sets is just plain wrong.

    Rod.

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  • From Robin@21:1/5 to Roderick Stewart on Fri Apr 14 10:52:33 2023
    On 14/04/2023 10:28, Roderick Stewart wrote:
    On Thu, 13 Apr 2023 18:16:05 +0100, Robin <rbw@outlook.com> wrote:

    There's also the little matter of defining "made for TV".

    "Never seriously intended to be shown anywhere else."

    I'm happy with that as it excludes everything intended also for
    streaming on iPlayer, ITVX, All4 etc etc

    Wherever it's streamed, or however it's broadcast, it's going to end
    up being shown on a screen.

    What shape are most screens?


    I mostly see 9:16 around here, plus a lot of 9:19.5 when I go into
    central London.

    --
    Robin
    reply-to address is (intended to be) valid

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
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  • From Mark Carver@21:1/5 to Roderick Stewart on Fri Apr 14 10:52:33 2023
    On 14/04/2023 10:22, Roderick Stewart wrote:
    On Thu, 13 Apr 2023 09:27:13 +0100, John Armstrong
    <jja@blueyonder.co.uk> wrote:

    Cinema films were all made originally in 1.33:1 (same as 4:3) and the
    vast majority were still being made in that aspect ratio when TVs were
    first sold. That, presumably, was why TV programme and set makers
    used the 4:3 aspect ratio.
    The BBC originally used 5:4. I'm not sure of the exact date they
    changed to 4:3 but I think it was around 1950. As far as I know they
    just changed it without any fuss or publicity, probably reasoning that
    any discrepancy would be within the normal maladjustment range of TV
    sets of the time so nobody would notice anyway.

    April 3rd 1950

    <https://www.vintage-radio.net/forum/attachment.php?s=e3ffc6d37804f4c71791870b9a4e26ed&attachmentid=249450&d=1641828398>

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
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  • From Brian Gaff@21:1/5 to Andy Burns on Thu Apr 13 10:17:30 2023
    I doubt that, its more likely a deliberate act to make the vista larger, at least until you notice.
    I remember back when colour came in here, the company I worked for had some early tvs which had come from the States and modified for PAL, and their screens had non straight sides, almost rounded, but straight tops and
    bottoms. On test transmissions from Wimbledon, some of the players often
    almost vanished completely when they got to the edges.
    Design off 'stuff' and what is right seem not always to be hand in hand, at least on those RCA TVs they were not.
    B

    One of the big issues I always noticed when colour came in was video
    crushing of bright spots like headlights or lights on stage.
    This was done to stop the colour non linearities at the higher beam
    currents and the need for more power on bright scenes.
    I don't know what todays system looks like but some people who bought Sharp TVs a few years back tell me that they look moor realistic in this regard,
    but then they used, and maybe still do have an extra colour that only
    engages on bright spots. BIt of a con, but I f it looks good I guess its
    fine.
    Brian

    --

    --:
    This newsgroup posting comes to you directly from...
    The Sofa of Brian Gaff...
    briang1@blueyonder.co.uk
    Blind user, so no pictures please
    Note this Signature is meaningless.!
    "Andy Burns" <usenet@andyburns.uk> wrote in message news:k9ni55Fda60U1@mid.individual.net...
    John Armstrong wrote:

    Why then are so many tv programmes made with different aspect ratios,
    so that my tv displays broad black stripes at the top and bottom of
    the screen?

    arty-farty types who forget that e.g. Top Gear will be shown on TV, rather than the local Odeon?


    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
    * Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)
  • From Roderick Stewart@21:1/5 to brian1gaff@gmail.com on Fri Apr 14 10:32:48 2023
    On Thu, 13 Apr 2023 09:54:12 +0100, "Brian Gaff"
    <brian1gaff@gmail.com> wrote:

    I remember some of
    the pop videos back in the 80s were filmed in wide screen and had this >problem on the old squarer formats, I can only suggest it is art that >dictates it.

    Or maybe "future proofing"? (One day, TV screens will be widescreen
    like the cinema, so we'll make our immortal video material in
    widescreen so that it will always look right).

    Rod.

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  • From Max Demian@21:1/5 to Jim Lesurf on Fri Apr 14 12:07:55 2023
    On 13/04/2023 15:00, Jim Lesurf wrote:
    In article <k9qb2kFqbt2U2@mid.individual.net>, Dickie mint <richard_taylor01@yahoo.co.uk> wrote:

    Ah the old 'must make it look like a film' attitude of a lot of
    directors. Along with loud peaky 'background' music.

    Their childish minds think it look dramatic!

    Also IIRC when 16:9 TV was relatively new in the UK, some people moaned
    about seeing blank/black screen either side of rebroadcast 4:3 material.

    There are two stations I noticed on Freeview recently that show old pop
    music videos... all stretched absurdly into 16:9.

    That's TV seem to use a combination of stretching and cropping.

    --
    Max Demian

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  • From Roderick Stewart@21:1/5 to Robin on Fri Apr 14 13:09:44 2023
    On Fri, 14 Apr 2023 10:52:33 +0100, Robin <rbw@outlook.com> wrote:

    On 14/04/2023 10:28, Roderick Stewart wrote:
    On Thu, 13 Apr 2023 18:16:05 +0100, Robin <rbw@outlook.com> wrote:

    There's also the little matter of defining "made for TV".

    "Never seriously intended to be shown anywhere else."

    I'm happy with that as it excludes everything intended also for
    streaming on iPlayer, ITVX, All4 etc etc

    Wherever it's streamed, or however it's broadcast, it's going to end
    up being shown on a screen.

    What shape are most screens?


    I mostly see 9:16 around here, plus a lot of 9:19.5 when I go into
    central London.

    But is it usual to watch movies and TV on those?

    Rod.

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
    * Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)
  • From NY@21:1/5 to Roderick Stewart on Fri Apr 14 13:12:44 2023
    On 14/04/2023 13:09, Roderick Stewart wrote:
    On Fri, 14 Apr 2023 10:52:33 +0100, Robin <rbw@outlook.com> wrote:

    On 14/04/2023 10:28, Roderick Stewart wrote:
    What shape are most screens?

    I mostly see 9:16 around here, plus a lot of 9:19.5 when I go into
    central London.

    But is it usual to watch movies and TV on those?

    I imagine there are people who do watch TV/films on a phone, propped up
    on a table in front of them or in a folding case which is designed to
    prop up a phone.

    I presume people *do* turn the screen into landscape orientation so the
    image fills the screen, and don't watch a very small landscape picture
    within a portrait screen ;-)

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
    * Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)
  • From Roderick Stewart@21:1/5 to mark.carver@invalid.invalid on Fri Apr 14 13:17:58 2023
    On Fri, 14 Apr 2023 10:52:33 +0100, Mark Carver
    <mark.carver@invalid.invalid> wrote:

    On 14/04/2023 10:22, Roderick Stewart wrote:
    On Thu, 13 Apr 2023 09:27:13 +0100, John Armstrong
    <jja@blueyonder.co.uk> wrote:

    Cinema films were all made originally in 1.33:1 (same as 4:3) and the
    vast majority were still being made in that aspect ratio when TVs were
    first sold. That, presumably, was why TV programme and set makers
    used the 4:3 aspect ratio.
    The BBC originally used 5:4. I'm not sure of the exact date they
    changed to 4:3 but I think it was around 1950. As far as I know they
    just changed it without any fuss or publicity, probably reasoning that
    any discrepancy would be within the normal maladjustment range of TV
    sets of the time so nobody would notice anyway.

    April 3rd 1950

    <https://www.vintage-radio.net/forum/attachment.php?s=e3ffc6d37804f4c71791870b9a4e26ed&attachmentid=249450&d=1641828398>

    Interesting. It's particularly interesting that the author says "it is
    now possible to record a television programme", by which I assume he
    must mean by means of film recording, since I don't think a practical
    method of recording the electronic signal was available in 1950.

    Rod.

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
    * Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)
  • From Roderick Stewart@21:1/5 to brian1gaff@gmail.com on Fri Apr 14 13:34:23 2023
    On Thu, 13 Apr 2023 10:17:30 +0100, "Brian Gaff"
    <brian1gaff@gmail.com> wrote:

    I doubt that, its more likely a deliberate act to make the vista larger, at >least until you notice.

    Presumably you mean until they notice that letterbox aspect ratio on a
    TV doesn't make anything wider, but just reduces the height, and
    leaves part of the screen perfectly capable of displaying picture
    material but not doing so.

    I once saw a cheap 35mm film camera that had a "widescreen" setting
    that did more or less the equivalent of this by flipping a couple of
    blanking panels just in front of the film at top and bottom of the
    available frame. This didn't make anything wider either, as the lens
    did not change, but the blanked part of the film would go through the
    same processing as the rest of it, in order to display nothing. The
    setting might as well have been labelled "waste of film".

    I remember back when colour came in here, the company I worked for had some
    early tvs which had come from the States and modified for PAL, and their >screens had non straight sides, almost rounded, but straight tops and >bottoms.

    They used circular CRTs masked off in this way to make use of as much
    of the screen as possible. Our family's first TV ( 405 line black and
    white in 1953) did the same thing, though it was masked to a rectangle
    with all straight sides but extremely rounded corners. Both
    compromises of course, though I thought ours was slightly better.

    Rod.

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
    * Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)
  • From Robin@21:1/5 to Roderick Stewart on Fri Apr 14 13:43:00 2023
    On 14/04/2023 13:09, Roderick Stewart wrote:
    On Fri, 14 Apr 2023 10:52:33 +0100, Robin <rbw@outlook.com> wrote:

    On 14/04/2023 10:28, Roderick Stewart wrote:
    On Thu, 13 Apr 2023 18:16:05 +0100, Robin <rbw@outlook.com> wrote:

    There's also the little matter of defining "made for TV".

    "Never seriously intended to be shown anywhere else."

    I'm happy with that as it excludes everything intended also for
    streaming on iPlayer, ITVX, All4 etc etc

    Wherever it's streamed, or however it's broadcast, it's going to end
    up being shown on a screen.

    What shape are most screens?


    I mostly see 9:16 around here, plus a lot of 9:19.5 when I go into
    central London.

    But is it usual to watch movies and TV on those?


    The times they are a-changin'

    "One in eight people watch TV on their phone each day." [YouGov Oct 2020]

    https://yougov.co.uk/topics/technology/articles-reports/2020/10/29/one-eight-people-watch-tv-their-phone-each-day

    "Overall, 81% of children watched TV content on a device other than a TV
    set" [Ofcom Mar 2022]

    https://www.ofcom.org.uk/__data/assets/pdf_file/0024/234609/childrens-media-use-and-attitudes-report-2022.pdf


    --
    Robin
    reply-to address is (intended to be) valid

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
    * Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)
  • From Ian Jackson@21:1/5 to mark.carver@invalid.invalid on Fri Apr 14 20:48:37 2023
    In message <k9sm32F5hn2U3@mid.individual.net>, Mark Carver <mark.carver@invalid.invalid> writes
    On 14/04/2023 10:22, Roderick Stewart wrote:
    On Thu, 13 Apr 2023 09:27:13 +0100, John Armstrong
    <jja@blueyonder.co.uk> wrote:

    Cinema films were all made originally in 1.33:1 (same as 4:3) and the
    vast majority were still being made in that aspect ratio when TVs were
    first sold. That, presumably, was why TV programme and set makers
    used the 4:3 aspect ratio.
    The BBC originally used 5:4. I'm not sure of the exact date they
    changed to 4:3 but I think it was around 1950. As far as I know they
    just changed it without any fuss or publicity, probably reasoning that
    any discrepancy would be within the normal maladjustment range of TV
    sets of the time so nobody would notice anyway.

    April 3rd 1950

    <https://www.vintage-radio.net/forum/attachment.php?s=e3ffc6d37804f4c717 >91870b9a4e26ed&attachmentid=249450&d=1641828398>

    I'm pretty sure that (for some unfathomable reason) there were a few 5:4
    sets made in the late 60s. The tube face looked distinctly square-ish.
    [It's tempting to wonder if someone found a warehouse full of pre-1950
    tubes, but this is highly unlikely!] To prevent things looking too tall, presumably the picture was deliberately set up to overscan.
    --
    Ian
    Aims and ambitions are neither attainments nor achievements

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
    * Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)
  • From charles@21:1/5 to Ian Jackson on Sat Apr 15 08:29:20 2023
    In article <$Wg1o7HV4aOkFw9+@brattleho.plus.com>,
    Ian Jackson <ianREMOVETHISjackson@g3ohx.co.uk> wrote:
    In message <k9sm32F5hn2U3@mid.individual.net>, Mark Carver <mark.carver@invalid.invalid> writes
    On 14/04/2023 10:22, Roderick Stewart wrote:
    On Thu, 13 Apr 2023 09:27:13 +0100, John Armstrong
    <jja@blueyonder.co.uk> wrote:

    Cinema films were all made originally in 1.33:1 (same as 4:3) and the
    vast majority were still being made in that aspect ratio when TVs were >>> first sold. That, presumably, was why TV programme and set makers
    used the 4:3 aspect ratio.
    The BBC originally used 5:4. I'm not sure of the exact date they
    changed to 4:3 but I think it was around 1950. As far as I know they
    just changed it without any fuss or publicity, probably reasoning that
    any discrepancy would be within the normal maladjustment range of TV
    sets of the time so nobody would notice anyway.

    April 3rd 1950

    <https://www.vintage-radio.net/forum/attachment.php?s=e3ffc6d37804f4c717 >91870b9a4e26ed&attachmentid=249450&d=1641828398>

    I'm pretty sure that (for some unfathomable reason) there were a few 5:4
    sets made in the late 60s. The tube face looked distinctly square-ish.
    [It's tempting to wonder if someone found a warehouse full of pre-1950
    tubes, but this is highly unlikely!] To prevent things looking too tall, presumably the picture was deliberately set up to overscan.

    I suspect the 5:4 pictures were displayed on round tubes

    --
    from KT24 in Surrey, England - sent from my RISC OS 4té
    "I'd rather die of exhaustion than die of boredom" Thomas Carlyle

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
    * Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)
  • From Jim Lesurf@21:1/5 to me@privacy.net on Fri Apr 14 17:43:19 2023
    In article <-sicnXJyV72h3qT5nZ2dnZfqn_qdnZ2d@brightview.co.uk>, NY <me@privacy.net> wrote:

    I presume people *do* turn the screen into landscape orientation so the
    image fills the screen, and don't watch a very small landscape picture
    within a portrait screen ;-)

    Dunno. But you see on TV quite often people holding their 'phone' in
    portrait mode when trying to video a scene where rotating ti 'landscape'
    makes more sense.

    Jim

    --
    Please use the address on the audiomisc page if you wish to email me. Electronics https://www.st-andrews.ac.uk/~www_pa/Scots_Guide/intro/electron.htm
    biog http://jcgl.orpheusweb.co.uk/history/ups_and_downs.html
    Audio Misc http://www.audiomisc.co.uk/index.html

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
    * Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)
  • From NY@21:1/5 to All on Sat Apr 15 20:19:49 2023
    "Robin" <rbw@outlook.com> wrote in message news:67dfba61-9193-c95e-cc06-10811cb4f44f@outlook.com...
    On 14/04/2023 13:09, Roderick Stewart wrote:
    On Fri, 14 Apr 2023 10:52:33 +0100, Robin <rbw@outlook.com> wrote:

    Wherever it's streamed, or however it's broadcast, it's going to end
    up being shown on a screen.

    What shape are most screens?


    I mostly see 9:16 around here, plus a lot of 9:19.5 when I go into
    central London.

    But is it usual to watch movies and TV on those?


    The times they are a-changin'

    "One in eight people watch TV on their phone each day." [YouGov Oct 2020]

    https://yougov.co.uk/topics/technology/articles-reports/2020/10/29/one-eight-people-watch-tv-their-phone-each-day

    "Overall, 81% of children watched TV content on a device other than a TV
    set" [Ofcom Mar 2022]

    https://www.ofcom.org.uk/__data/assets/pdf_file/0024/234609/childrens-media-use-and-attitudes-report-2022.pdf


    All of which makes it highly absurd that BBC decided to start broadcasting
    BBC Three (mainly of interest to teenagers and younger adults) on
    Terrestrial and Satellite again, given that 80% watch TV on a device other
    than a TV, presumably by streaming it over the internet rather than by
    watching a terrestrial or satellite broadcast (or recording thereof).

    The reason for stopping broadcasting BBC Three on linear TV was that few
    people watched it that way, so why reverse that decision a few years later?

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
    * Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)
  • From NY@21:1/5 to Roderick Stewart on Sat Apr 15 20:38:58 2023
    "Roderick Stewart" <rjfs@escapetime.myzen.co.uk> wrote in message news:6rgi3ihng81a04evepd3ag993dmclmhkol@4ax.com...
    On Fri, 14 Apr 2023 10:52:33 +0100, Mark Carver
    <mark.carver@invalid.invalid> wrote:

    On 14/04/2023 10:22, Roderick Stewart wrote:
    On Thu, 13 Apr 2023 09:27:13 +0100, John Armstrong
    <jja@blueyonder.co.uk> wrote:

    Cinema films were all made originally in 1.33:1 (same as 4:3) and the
    vast majority were still being made in that aspect ratio when TVs were >>>> first sold. That, presumably, was why TV programme and set makers
    used the 4:3 aspect ratio.
    The BBC originally used 5:4. I'm not sure of the exact date they
    changed to 4:3 but I think it was around 1950. As far as I know they
    just changed it without any fuss or publicity, probably reasoning that
    any discrepancy would be within the normal maladjustment range of TV
    sets of the time so nobody would notice anyway.

    April 3rd 1950
    <https://www.vintage-radio.net/forum/attachment.php?s=e3ffc6d37804f4c71791870b9a4e26ed&attachmentid=249450&d=1641828398>

    Interesting. It's particularly interesting that the author says "it is
    now possible to record a television programme", by which I assume he
    must mean by means of film recording, since I don't think a practical
    method of recording the electronic signal was available in 1950.

    BBC were experimenting with VERA (linear tape recording without helical or transverse scanning) in 1952 https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Vision_Electronic_Recording_Apparatus, and
    Ampex produced Quaduplex (transverse scanning of the head) in 1956. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Quadruplex_videotape

    So I think any reference in 1950 to "it is now possible to record a
    television programme" must have been film recording.


    I like the statement in https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Vision_Electronic_Recording_Apparatus "In
    order to cope with 625-line PAL or SECAM colour transmissions VERA would
    likely have required an even faster, and possibly unfeasible, tape speed."
    VERA (405-line) moved the tape at 5 metres per second (16.7 ft/s). 625-line would have needed at least 625/405 time the speed, and probably more because 625 would want proportionally more horizontal resolution - I'm guessing (625/405)^2 x 5 = 2.4 * 5 = 12 m/sec or nearly 30 mph. I'd call that
    "idiotic and bloody dangerous" rather than "unfeasible" ;-) Imagine the
    size of reels needed to store a useful length of programme (eg 30 min
    minimum, preferably 60 min). Imagine accidentally touching the edge of the
    reel as the tape was playing. Even audio tape playing at 15 inches/sec is moving at a fair lick and you can give your finger a nasty friction burn if
    you touch the edge of the reel.

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
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  • From John Armstrong@21:1/5 to me@privacy.invalid on Sun Apr 16 09:15:57 2023
    On Sat, 15 Apr 2023 20:38:58 +0100, "NY" <me@privacy.invalid> wrote:

    "Roderick Stewart" <rjfs@escapetime.myzen.co.uk> wrote in message >news:6rgi3ihng81a04evepd3ag993dmclmhkol@4ax.com...
    On Fri, 14 Apr 2023 10:52:33 +0100, Mark Carver
    <mark.carver@invalid.invalid> wrote:

    On 14/04/2023 10:22, Roderick Stewart wrote:
    On Thu, 13 Apr 2023 09:27:13 +0100, John Armstrong
    <jja@blueyonder.co.uk> wrote:

    Cinema films were all made originally in 1.33:1 (same as 4:3) and the >>>>> vast majority were still being made in that aspect ratio when TVs were >>>>> first sold. That, presumably, was why TV programme and set makers
    used the 4:3 aspect ratio.
    The BBC originally used 5:4. I'm not sure of the exact date they
    changed to 4:3 but I think it was around 1950. As far as I know they
    just changed it without any fuss or publicity, probably reasoning that >>>> any discrepancy would be within the normal maladjustment range of TV
    sets of the time so nobody would notice anyway.

    April 3rd 1950
    <https://www.vintage-radio.net/forum/attachment.php?s=e3ffc6d37804f4c71791870b9a4e26ed&attachmentid=249450&d=1641828398>

    Interesting. It's particularly interesting that the author says "it is
    now possible to record a television programme", by which I assume he
    must mean by means of film recording, since I don't think a practical
    method of recording the electronic signal was available in 1950.

    BBC were experimenting with VERA (linear tape recording without helical or >transverse scanning) in 1952 >https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Vision_Electronic_Recording_Apparatus, and >Ampex produced Quaduplex (transverse scanning of the head) in 1956. >https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Quadruplex_videotape

    So I think any reference in 1950 to "it is now possible to record a >television programme" must have been film recording.


    I like the statement in >https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Vision_Electronic_Recording_Apparatus "In
    order to cope with 625-line PAL or SECAM colour transmissions VERA would >likely have required an even faster, and possibly unfeasible, tape speed." >VERA (405-line) moved the tape at 5 metres per second (16.7 ft/s). 625-line >would have needed at least 625/405 time the speed, and probably more because >625 would want proportionally more horizontal resolution - I'm guessing >(625/405)^2 x 5 = 2.4 * 5 = 12 m/sec or nearly 30 mph. I'd call that
    "idiotic and bloody dangerous" rather than "unfeasible" ;-) Imagine the
    size of reels needed to store a useful length of programme (eg 30 min >minimum, preferably 60 min). Imagine accidentally touching the edge of the >reel as the tape was playing. Even audio tape playing at 15 inches/sec is >moving at a fair lick and you can give your finger a nasty friction burn if >you touch the edge of the reel.

    Here's a link to a youtube video showing part of a "Panorama"
    programme which demonstrated VERA for the first time. It dates from
    1958.

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=56V3QPpyOO8

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
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  • From NY@21:1/5 to John Armstrong on Sun Apr 16 16:04:46 2023
    On 16/04/2023 09:15, John Armstrong wrote:
    On Sat, 15 Apr 2023 20:38:58 +0100, "NY" <me@privacy.invalid> wrote:

    "Roderick Stewart" <rjfs@escapetime.myzen.co.uk> wrote in message
    Interesting. It's particularly interesting that the author says "it is
    now possible to record a television programme", by which I assume he
    must mean by means of film recording, since I don't think a practical
    method of recording the electronic signal was available in 1950.

    BBC were experimenting with VERA (linear tape recording without helical or >> transverse scanning) in 1952
    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Vision_Electronic_Recording_Apparatus, and
    Ampex produced Quaduplex (transverse scanning of the head) in 1956.
    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Quadruplex_videotape

    So I think any reference in 1950 to "it is now possible to record a
    television programme" must have been film recording.


    I like the statement in
    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Vision_Electronic_Recording_Apparatus "In
    order to cope with 625-line PAL or SECAM colour transmissions VERA would
    likely have required an even faster, and possibly unfeasible, tape speed." >> VERA (405-line) moved the tape at 5 metres per second (16.7 ft/s). 625-line >> would have needed at least 625/405 time the speed, and probably more because >> 625 would want proportionally more horizontal resolution - I'm guessing
    (625/405)^2 x 5 = 2.4 * 5 = 12 m/sec or nearly 30 mph. I'd call that
    "idiotic and bloody dangerous" rather than "unfeasible" ;-) Imagine the
    size of reels needed to store a useful length of programme (eg 30 min
    minimum, preferably 60 min). Imagine accidentally touching the edge of the >> reel as the tape was playing. Even audio tape playing at 15 inches/sec is
    moving at a fair lick and you can give your finger a nasty friction burn if >> you touch the edge of the reel.

    Here's a link to a youtube video showing part of a "Panorama"
    programme which demonstrated VERA for the first time. It dates from
    1958.

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=56V3QPpyOO8

    I've seen that Panorama demo with Richard Dimbleby. I hadn't realised it
    was as late as 1958, because by that stage Ampex Quadruplex had been
    available for a couple of years and you'd think the BBC would have
    realised that VERA was a non-starter compared with Quad. I'd assumed
    that it was from the early 50s before Quad started to dominate the video-recording market.

    But they still had to rely on film-recording to preserve the Dimblebly Demo.

    I presume there isn't a VERA still in working order...

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
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  • From charles@21:1/5 to me@privacy.net on Sun Apr 16 16:52:56 2023
    In article <zpycnWrNjvYNk6H5nZ2dnZfqn_SdnZ2d@brightview.co.uk>, NY <me@privacy.net> wrote:

    [Snip]

    I've seen that Panorama demo with Richard Dimbleby. I hadn't realised it
    was as late as 1958, because by that stage Ampex Quadruplex had been available for a couple of years and you'd think the BBC would have
    realised that VERA was a non-starter compared with Quad. I'd assumed
    that it was from the early 50s before Quad started to dominate the video-recording market.

    According to BBC Engineeering 1922-1972, VERA and The Ampex product
    appeared almost simultaneously. The BBC had its first Ampex machine in
    October 1958

    But they still had to rely on film-recording to preserve the Dimblebly
    Demo.

    I presume there isn't a VERA still in working order...

    A large part of the metalwork turned into the first Standards Converter 525/60>625/50. (I knew that machine)

    --
    from KT24 in Surrey, England - sent from my RISC OS 4té
    "I'd rather die of exhaustion than die of boredom" Thomas Carlyle

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
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  • From David Paste@21:1/5 to All on Sun Apr 16 10:18:29 2023
    On Wednesday, 12 April 2023 at 13:33:16 UTC+1, NY wrote:

    Here are examples of Why Didn't They Ask Evans? and Vera (first
    recording I had to hand) which show the black band. I've seen it on
    quite a few modern TV dramas. I wonder what market it is being designed
    for, if not 16:9 TV?

    <https://i.postimg.cc/gcB3JHPK/Agatha-Christie-s-Why-Didn-t-They-Ask-Evans-1-03.png>

    'Univisium'

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Univisium

    Yet another standard...

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
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  • From Jim Lesurf@21:1/5 to me@privacy.invalid on Sun Apr 16 11:02:12 2023
    In article <u1eufu$25bo4$1@dont-email.me>, NY <me@privacy.invalid> wrote:
    625 would want proportionally more horizontal resolution - I'm guessing (625/405)^2 x 5 = 2.4 * 5 = 12 m/sec or nearly 30 mph. I'd call that
    "idiotic and bloody dangerous" rather than "unfeasible" ;-)

    I'm trying to remember what tape speed Blattnerphones used! That was quite
    fast and dangerous.

    Jim

    --
    Please use the address on the audiomisc page if you wish to email me. Electronics https://www.st-andrews.ac.uk/~www_pa/Scots_Guide/intro/electron.htm
    biog http://jcgl.orpheusweb.co.uk/history/ups_and_downs.html
    Audio Misc http://www.audiomisc.co.uk/index.html

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
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  • From NY@21:1/5 to Jim Lesurf on Mon Apr 17 11:06:35 2023
    "Jim Lesurf" <noise@audiomisc.co.uk> wrote in message news:5a95f36638noise@audiomisc.co.uk...
    In article <u1eufu$25bo4$1@dont-email.me>, NY <me@privacy.invalid> wrote:
    625 would want proportionally more horizontal resolution - I'm guessing
    (625/405)^2 x 5 = 2.4 * 5 = 12 m/sec or nearly 30 mph. I'd call that
    "idiotic and bloody dangerous" rather than "unfeasible" ;-)

    I'm trying to remember what tape speed Blattnerphones used! That was quite fast and dangerous.

    http://www.orbem.co.uk/tapes/blattner.htm says 5 feet per second. "A full
    spool weighing 21lbs contained just over a mile of tape giving a recording
    time of twenty minutes." A mile of tape/wire on a spool ;-)

    I hadn't realised that some Blattnerphones used steel tape rather than steel wire. I thought wire was used because if it broke it could just be knotted together, though I can't imagine a knot hitting the head at 5 feet per
    second would do the head much good.

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