• Sinclair/Timex Microvision

    From Brian Gaff@21:1/5 to All on Mon Mar 27 11:34:15 2023
    The first one of these was pretty useless, having a very tiny screen not
    much bigger than a postage stamp and a very long box for the tube neck.
    However then there was the later on, badged as Timex with Polaroid
    Polarpulse batteries and a folded up crt.
    How did the CRT work? How did it produce a picture 90 degrees to the actual neck?

    I know they are of no use in our digital age, and in any case the batteries were always hard to get, but it was one of the first viable portable TVs
    that you could have in your pocket. Of course soon, LCDs took over but a
    very ingenious product for its time.
    Brian

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  • From David Woolley@21:1/5 to Brian Gaff on Mon Mar 27 12:09:35 2023
    On 27/03/2023 11:34, Brian Gaff wrote:
    How did the CRT work? How did it produce a picture 90 degrees to the actual neck?

    You mean Pocket TV, not Microvision. According to <https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=w3SbEZazxVY> there is a transparent, negatively charged, electrode, in front of the screen, that deflects the electron beam away from the viewer.

    (The Microvision appears to have had normal tubes.)

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  • From Graham.@21:1/5 to All on Tue Mar 28 00:27:16 2023
    Those flat(ish) CRTs were used in at least one design of video
    entry-phone system for flats.


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  • From pinnerite@21:1/5 to Graham. on Tue Mar 28 08:55:28 2023
    On Tue, 28 Mar 2023 00:27:16 +0100 (GMT+01:00)
    "Graham. " <I.need.a.usenet.client@gmail.com> wrote:

    Those flat(ish) CRTs were used in at least one design of video
    entry-phone system for flats.


    I met Clive Sinclair when I was asked to test Class-D amplifier for the Stern-Clyne group.
    It was supposed to deliver 10 watts from tiny transistors.
    It may have done but the distortion was unbearable.
    When we told Sir Clive, he said pop round and demonstrate it.
    We did and discovered that he couldn't hear it!
    In fact he bought our test set up there and then!
    Very nice man. Self taught!

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  • From R. Mark Clayton@21:1/5 to pinnerite on Wed Mar 29 02:02:01 2023
    On Tuesday, 28 March 2023 at 08:55:31 UTC+1, pinnerite wrote:
    On Tue, 28 Mar 2023 00:27:16 +0100 (GMT+01:00)
    "Graham. " <I.need.a.us...@gmail.com> wrote:

    Those flat(ish) CRTs were used in at least one design of video
    entry-phone system for flats.

    It was.


    I met Clive Sinclair when I was asked to test Class-D amplifier for the Stern-Clyne group.
    It was supposed to deliver 10 watts from tiny transistors.
    It may have done but the distortion was unbearable.
    When we told Sir Clive, he said pop round and demonstrate it.
    We did and discovered that he couldn't hear it!
    In fact he bought our test set up there and then!
    Very nice man. Self taught!

    --
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    running on an AMD Phenom II X4 Black edition processor with 16GB of DRAM.

    [Sir] Clive showed me his tube at his house in 1980 and explained how it worked. Beam deflection was electrostatic (like an oscilloscope) and the beam bent by an electric field between a transparent electrode on the front and a phosphor surface at the
    back. One claimed advantage was that the screen being at the back could be mounted on a big heat sink and the tube used for projection, however AFAIK it never managed colour.

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  • From David Woolley@21:1/5 to R. Mark Clayton on Wed Mar 29 14:02:23 2023
    On 29/03/2023 10:02, R. Mark Clayton wrote:
    One claimed advantage was that the screen being at the back could be mounted on a big heat sink and the tube used for projection, however AFAIK it never managed colour.

    I think the shadow mask would have seriously obstructed the light from
    the phosphors.

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  • From R. Mark Clayton@21:1/5 to David Woolley on Wed Mar 29 10:47:11 2023
    On Wednesday, 29 March 2023 at 14:02:25 UTC+1, David Woolley wrote:
    On 29/03/2023 10:02, R. Mark Clayton wrote:
    One claimed advantage was that the screen being at the back could be mounted on a big heat sink and the tube used for projection, however AFAIK it never managed colour.
    I think the shadow mask would have seriously obstructed the light from
    the phosphors.

    Tricky too making one for an oblique beam, however something like Trinitron might have worked. Alas this was patent protected until 1996.

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  • From Brian Gaff@21:1/5 to David Woolley on Thu Mar 30 09:53:08 2023
    Yes, That is why I said Timex, I only saw one of the original Sinclair ones. Not very practical.
    I'm still no wiser on the right angled tube of the timex.
    Brian

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    "David Woolley" <david@ex.djwhome.demon.invalid> wrote in message news:tvrthg$36jlg$1@dont-email.me...
    On 27/03/2023 11:34, Brian Gaff wrote:
    How did the CRT work? How did it produce a picture 90 degrees to the
    actual
    neck?

    You mean Pocket TV, not Microvision. According to <https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=w3SbEZazxVY> there is a transparent, negatively charged, electrode, in front of the screen, that deflects the electron beam away from the viewer.

    (The Microvision appears to have had normal tubes.)

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  • From NY@21:1/5 to All on Thu Mar 30 09:58:27 2023
    "R. Mark Clayton" <notyalckram@gmail.com> wrote in message news:6af6c1fa-98bc-4939-bed1-2b4a7aea65b1n@googlegroups.com...
    On Wednesday, 29 March 2023 at 14:02:25 UTC+1, David Woolley wrote:
    On 29/03/2023 10:02, R. Mark Clayton wrote:
    One claimed advantage was that the screen being at the back could be
    mounted on a big heat sink and the tube used for projection, however
    AFAIK it never managed colour.
    I think the shadow mask would have seriously obstructed the light from
    the phosphors.

    Tricky too making one for an oblique beam, however something like
    Trinitron might have worked. Alas this was patent protected until 1996.

    By which time LED flat screens were being designed. CRT screens, especially those which turned the beam through 90 degrees, were starting to become obsolete - like the patent. The Microvision was an incredible design, and a neat solution to the problem of needing a TV that was shallow from front to back, but the circuitry and coils to control of the beam must have been a nightmare. I hadn't realised that it was multi-standard - 625/25 and 525/30.
    Is there any information about how they managed to turn the beam through 90 degrees?

    It seems that there are two Sinclair mini TVs: one (MTV1) with a
    conventional (albeit very small) CRT with a long neck, and one (FTV1) with a flat screen that turned the beam 90 degrees. I see that it used a Fresnel
    lens to make the picture look bigger than the screen - like the water-filled lenses sold with very early TVs.

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  • From Brian Gaff@21:1/5 to All on Thu Mar 30 10:04:16 2023
    Yes the distortion was not there with the right filtering. It was also an issue because it effectively jammed radio channels for most AM radios.
    I met him when he was flogging his Z88 laptop. That was very successful in
    the journalist market as it was spill resistant and used solid state
    storage. The LCD screen was not very big though, but then the batteries
    lasted a long time unlike most laptops at that time, most of which used
    cheap processors anyway.
    The problem with Clive is that he had no real understanding of marketing.
    He wanted to talk about Wafer Scale integration, when he really should have been plugging the z88.
    Then there was the C5. It was intended as a fun vehicle for the summer.
    Sadly his bank had had enough, and wanted their money back, so it was
    launched at Alexandra Palace in the middle of a snow storm. Given that it
    only drove oone rear wheel from the motor, it was white and therefore not really visible, the press had a field day, sending it up. I was there, but
    only found out later that he had been forced to sell it ahead of Christmas
    by the bankers.

    You could not give them away after a couple of years, and I recall a field full of them in, of all places Guernsey, where they had been bought as a
    fleet of fun runabouts, but nobody wanted to risk on on the roads over
    there. I often wonder what happened to them? Hoover made the motors
    apparently.
    Brian

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    "pinnerite" <pinnerite@gmail.com> wrote in message news:20230328085528.c75481f2a47252ded5f0acd4@gmail.com...
    On Tue, 28 Mar 2023 00:27:16 +0100 (GMT+01:00)
    "Graham. " <I.need.a.usenet.client@gmail.com> wrote:

    Those flat(ish) CRTs were used in at least one design of video
    entry-phone system for flats.


    I met Clive Sinclair when I was asked to test Class-D amplifier for the Stern-Clyne group.
    It was supposed to deliver 10 watts from tiny transistors.
    It may have done but the distortion was unbearable.
    When we told Sir Clive, he said pop round and demonstrate it.
    We did and discovered that he couldn't hear it!
    In fact he bought our test set up there and then!
    Very nice man. Self taught!

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  • From Brian Gaff@21:1/5 to pinnerite on Thu Mar 30 10:09:05 2023
    No that was because to make it accurate enough for colour defeated the tech
    in the end. Besides, by then the writing was on the wall due to the fast development of LCD. My first pocket TV was a citizen. Of course with my failing sight it was hard to watch, as you had to look at the picture in a mirror so that the light from daylight shone in the back.
    Next there was a colour lcd which was self illuminating but the pixels for
    the colour were enormous and it looked very odd when it was magnified.
    Brian

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    "R. Mark Clayton" <notyalckram@gmail.com> wrote in message news:9ac290b7-c5f3-4af6-b923-6002f3610705n@googlegroups.com...
    On Tuesday, 28 March 2023 at 08:55:31 UTC+1, pinnerite wrote:
    On Tue, 28 Mar 2023 00:27:16 +0100 (GMT+01:00)
    "Graham. " <I.need.a.us...@gmail.com> wrote:

    Those flat(ish) CRTs were used in at least one design of video
    entry-phone system for flats.

    It was.


    I met Clive Sinclair when I was asked to test Class-D amplifier for the Stern-Clyne group.
    It was supposed to deliver 10 watts from tiny transistors.
    It may have done but the distortion was unbearable.
    When we told Sir Clive, he said pop round and demonstrate it.
    We did and discovered that he couldn't hear it!
    In fact he bought our test set up there and then!
    Very nice man. Self taught!

    --
    Mint 20.3, kernel 5.4.0-139-generic, Cinnamon 5.2.7
    running on an AMD Phenom II X4 Black edition processor with 16GB of DRAM.

    [Sir] Clive showed me his tube at his house in 1980 and explained how it worked. Beam deflection was electrostatic (like an oscilloscope) and the
    beam bent by an electric field between a transparent electrode on the front
    and a phosphor surface at the back. One claimed advantage was that the
    screen being at the back could be mounted on a big heat sink and the tube
    used for projection, however AFAIK it never managed colour.

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  • From Vir Campestris@21:1/5 to Brian Gaff on Mon Apr 3 12:13:28 2023
    On 30/03/2023 10:04, Brian Gaff wrote:
    Then there was the C5. It was intended as a fun vehicle for the summer. Sadly his bank had had enough, and wanted their money back, so it was launched at Alexandra Palace in the middle of a snow storm. Given that it only drove oone rear wheel from the motor, it was white and therefore not really visible, the press had a field day, sending it up. I was there, but only found out later that he had been forced to sell it ahead of Christmas by the bankers.

    What scared me, and a lot of other people, about the C5 was the height.

    Below car bonnet level.

    Which meant below a lot of driver's lines of sight.

    Add in that it was slower than a pedal cycle...

    Andy

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  • From NY@21:1/5 to Max Demian on Mon Apr 3 14:00:58 2023
    "Max Demian" <max_demian@bigfoot.com> wrote in message news:u0eg8f$2uvhq$4@dont-email.me...
    On 30/03/2023 10:04, Brian Gaff wrote:

    Then there was the C5. It was intended as a fun vehicle for the summer.
    Sadly his bank had had enough, and wanted their money back, so it was
    launched at Alexandra Palace in the middle of a snow storm. Given that it
    only drove oone rear wheel from the motor, it was white and therefore not
    really visible, the press had a field day, sending it up. I was there,
    but
    only found out later that he had been forced to sell it ahead of
    Christmas
    by the bankers.

    I don't think I ever saw one under electric power. I saw one being
    pedalled once,

    and, regularly, one being hauled up a long hill with a rope.

    What, being towed behind a vehicle, or connected to static motor/engine at
    the top of the hill (*) which gradually pulled the C5 closer to it?

    Were C5s designed like modern "pedelec" bicycles, in that you could pedal
    with electrical assistance, or were the all-electric or else all-pedal, with
    no combined power? How much mechanical resistance did the motor impose when
    you were pedalling, given that presumably there was a reduction gear between the motor and wheels which would have magnified any friction in the motor
    when being driven "in reverse" (wheels driving motor).


    (*) Like early railway wagons, before the days of locomotives.

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  • From Max Demian@21:1/5 to Brian Gaff on Mon Apr 3 13:19:26 2023
    On 30/03/2023 10:04, Brian Gaff wrote:

    Then there was the C5. It was intended as a fun vehicle for the summer. Sadly his bank had had enough, and wanted their money back, so it was launched at Alexandra Palace in the middle of a snow storm. Given that it only drove oone rear wheel from the motor, it was white and therefore not really visible, the press had a field day, sending it up. I was there, but only found out later that he had been forced to sell it ahead of Christmas by the bankers.

    I don't think I ever saw one under electric power. I saw one being
    pedalled once, and, regularly, one being hauled up a long hill with a rope.

    --
    Max Demian

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  • From Max Demian@21:1/5 to All on Mon Apr 3 18:00:53 2023
    On 03/04/2023 14:00, NY wrote:


    "Max Demian" <max_demian@bigfoot.com> wrote in message news:u0eg8f$2uvhq$4@dont-email.me...
    On 30/03/2023 10:04, Brian Gaff wrote:

      Then there was the C5. It was intended as a fun vehicle for the
    summer.
    Sadly his bank had had enough, and wanted their money back, so it was
    launched at Alexandra Palace in the middle of a snow storm. Given
    that it
    only drove oone rear wheel from the motor, it was white and therefore
    not
    really visible, the press had a field day, sending it up. I was
    there, but
    only found out later that he had been forced to  sell it ahead of
    Christmas
    by the bankers.

    I don't think I ever saw one under electric power. I saw one being
    pedalled once,

    and, regularly, one being hauled up a long hill with a rope.

    What, being towed behind a vehicle, or connected to static motor/engine
    at the top of the hill (*) which gradually pulled the C5 closer to it?

    No, being pulled by a man.

    Were C5s designed like modern "pedelec" bicycles, in that you could
    pedal with electrical assistance, or were the all-electric or else
    all-pedal, with no combined power? How much mechanical resistance did
    the motor impose when you were pedalling, given that presumably there
    was a reduction gear between the motor and wheels which would have
    magnified any friction in the motor when being driven "in reverse"
    (wheels driving motor).

    They were either all electric or all pedal. I suppose you disconnected
    the motor when pedalling. Nothing sophisticated.

    --
    Max Demian

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  • From NY@21:1/5 to Vir Campestris on Mon Apr 3 22:31:08 2023
    On 03/04/2023 12:13, Vir Campestris wrote:
    What scared me, and a lot of other people, about the C5 was the height.

    Below car bonnet level.

    Which meant below a lot of driver's lines of sight.

    Hence the flag on a flexible pole that you often see attached to the
    back of a C5, as a visibility marker for other traffic to see.

    Add in that it was slower than a pedal cycle...

    I hadn't realised they were slower than a bike. I rather assumed that
    when they were being pedalled they were similar to a recumbent bike in
    terms of speed.

    I wonder what sort of speed would be possible from a "son of C5" using
    current technology. I presume they would have to have a speed limiter to prevent them going faster that 16 mph / 25 km/hr on electric power,
    beyond which they are classed as a motor bike and need insurance, crash
    helmet etc. That's why the electrical assistance on electric bikes cuts
    out once you reach 16 mph.

    I wouldn't mind but my electric bike has a very low top gear which means
    that my legs are spinning at a very fast cadence once I get up to about
    25, and even at the cut-out speed of 16, it's lower gearing than I would
    like. For some reason, the more expensive bikes with more gears have the
    extra ones all at the low end of the range. On my older "manual" bike, I
    find I use top gear on both from and rear cogs when I'm going down a
    long gentle hill and need a bit of extra push to counteract air resistance.

    So paradoxically I can't go as fast on the flat or a slight
    down-gradient on my electric bike as on my manual one (unless my feet
    are spinning uncomfortably fast) but this is more than made up by the assistance when going up hills.

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