Just watching All Creatures Great and Small on Drama (FreeView 20).
It's original 4:3 material, actually being broadcast as such for once
J. P. Gilliver wrote:
Just watching All Creatures Great and Small on Drama (FreeView 20).
It's original 4:3 material, actually being broadcast as such for once
On satellite it seems to be 4:3 pillarboxed within 16:9 (720x576)
Andy Burns writes
On satellite it seems to be 4:3 pillarboxed within 16:9 (720x576)
Interesting - you mean they're actually broadcasting the black side
bars.
On terrestrial, they're not. I know from how my TV behaves - but
also, the DOG is within the 4:3 (when other channels broadcast
pillarboxed material, the DOG is usually within the black bit, or
partially so).
J. P. Gilliver wrote:
Andy Burns writes
On satellite it seems to be 4:3 pillarboxed within 16:9 (720x576)
Interesting - you mean they're actually broadcasting the black side
bars.
and nothing looks cropped or stretched
On terrestrial, they're not. I know from how my TV behaves - but
also, the DOG is within the 4:3 (when other channels broadcast
pillarboxed material, the DOG is usually within the black bit, or
partially so).
yes DOG within the 4:3 picture area, an not especially near the
top/left of it.
Do you _have_ a FreeView feed?
They're still broadcasting true 4:3 on
that (though would have to wait to the opening of tomorrow's ACG&S to
see the credit loss I was asking about).
On the whole, I'm pleased to see the 4:3 broadcast: it's using a flag
for what it was intended for,
I do have a replacement aerial lurking somewhere, could probably cobble
it up indoors to the PC with the tuner card.
Andy Burns wrote:
I do have a replacement aerial lurking somewhere, could probably
cobble it up indoors to the PC with the tuner card.
Well, that seems to have been a success.
Unfortunately LotSW isn't in 4:3
ACG&S is at it's usual time of 16:10 today (Thursday), so you'd see what
I mean about the opening credits.
J. P. Gilliver wrote:
On the whole, I'm pleased to see the 4:3 broadcast: it's using a flag for
what it was intended for,
Yes, obviously the satellite method wastes some bandwidth (but probably
not much) on black bars.
If you're bothered, ACG&S is at it's usual time of 16:10 today (Thursday),
so you'd see what I mean about the opening credits.
I'm puzzled how this has happened: I presume by now the original - at
least, as used by a station like Drama - exists as 4:3 video (almost certainly digitised), rather than a mix of film and video as it would have been produced originally, so no conversion error.
J. P. Gilliver wrote:
ACG&S is at it's usual time of 16:10 today (Thursday), so you'd see
what I mean about the opening credits.
I'll try to remember!
NY wrote:
I've set ACGAS to record on both satellite and terrestrial, so I'll see
how they compare.
did the scheduler prevent yours from recording both? mine did ...
Andy Burns wrote:
J. P. Gilliver wrote:
ACG&S is at it's usual time of 16:10 today (Thursday), so you'd see what >>> I mean about the opening credits.
I'll try to remember!
Confirm the
terrestrial version is 544x576 4:3
but nothing looks cropped to me, maybe John's 4:3 TV isn't as well behaved
as he thinks?
I did try to record both the satellite and terrestrial versions at the
same time for comparison, but TVHeadend's scheduler decided thgat was a stupid idea.
NY wrote:pixels.
If Drama is showing ACGAS as 4:3 embedded in 16:9, then the picture
resolution will be utterly dire. It's only 544 pixels wide anyway, and if
part of this is then dedicated to black bars, the picture will be only
about 400 pixels wide :-( Some channels are 720 on satellite and 544 on
Freeview, but I think (I may be wrong) Drama is 544 on both platforms.
Not in this case
DVB-T has 544x576 4:3 with all active pixels
DVB-S has 720x576 16:9 with 4:3 central pillarbox so 544x576b non-black
https://i.postimg.cc/dtcBYvmC/Sat.png (transmitted as 720x576 video, 4:3
in 16:9 frame)
I've set ACGAS to record on both satellite and terrestrial, so I'll see
how they compare.
Andy Burns wrote:
did the scheduler prevent yours from recording both? mine did ...
Aha! I've created separate channels, one which uses the satellite
service and one which uses the terrestrial service.
Here are my captures - I managed to persuade my TVHeadend to record from
each
https://i.postimg.cc/dtcBYvmC/Sat.png (transmitted as 720x576 video, 4:3
in 16:9 frame)
https://i.postimg.cc/YqNx2Vbs/Terr.png (transmitted as 544x576)
All seem to show the same area of picture.
"J. P. Gilliver" <G6JPG@255soft.uk> wrote in message >news:HmF$Lqnn9$plFw0f@255soft.uk...
I'm puzzled how this has happened: I presume by now the original - at >>least, as used by a station like Drama - exists as 4:3 video (almost >>certainly digitised), rather than a mix of film and video as it would
have been produced originally, so no conversion error.
Looks as if by today's episode "A Cat in Hull's Chance", episode 7.8,
it's all on video - including outdoor scenes. Vibrant (maybe *too*
vibrant!) colours, PAL artefacts, bleached-out highlights on skies.
Different to muddy, grainy, low-saturation 16mm film which they used
for exteriors on earlier episodes.
I know that film would have PAL cross-colour just the same as video,
but maybe the detail on the film isn't fine enough to trigger
cross-colour.
On the uktvplay.co.uk web site, the picture looks to be the full area,
with no captions being chopped off. I'll post a still from the web
version, together with corresponding ones from sat and terr, when the
episode has been broadcast this afternoon.
(Small claim to fame: There's an early episode about sheep suffering
from mineral deficiency as they were giving birth on a snowy hillside,
and that was filmed in the tiny hamlet where my parents have a holiday >cottage. The local farmer happened to have flock of the right breed of
sheep that were at the right stage of pregnancy, so her sheep were
used. In the opening title scene you can *almost* see our cottage, and
in later scenes there's a view of the village. Apparently the filming
lorries caused chaos in the village, getting bogged down on the village >green, and getting stuck on one of the steep hills leading in/out of
the village, but the locals said that the actors were very approachable
and apologised on behalf of everyone.)
NY wrote:
Andy Burns wrote:
obviously the satellite method wastes some bandwidth (but probablyIt's not so much wasting bandwidth that is the problem with >>4:3-picture-inside-a-16:9-frame. The real problem is the reduction in >>horizontal resolution, because only the centre 544 pixels contain
not much) on black bars.
picture, instead of the full 720 or 704 pixels that you'd get with
true 4:3.
Not in this case
DVB-T has 544x576 4:3 with all active pixels
DVB-S has 720x576 16:9 with 4:3 central pillarbox so 544x576b non-black >pixels.
In my experience, ITV and the repeats channels such as Drama are
better at alternating between 4:3 no-widescreen-flag and >>16:9-with-widescreen-flag (even flipping in and out at every ad
break). It is BBC channels that stick everything in a 16:9 frame.
If Drama is showing ACGAS as 4:3 embedded in 16:9, then the picture >>resolution will be utterly dire. It's only 544 pixels wide anyway, and
if part of this is then dedicated to black bars, the picture will be
only about 400 pixels wide :-( Some channels are 720 on satellite and
544 on Freeview, but I think (I may be wrong) Drama is 544 on both platforms.
not the case ... see above.
"Andy Burns" <usenet@andyburns.uk> wrote in message >news:l0t1ceFi58aU1@mid.individual.net...
Andy Burns wrote:
J. P. Gilliver wrote:
ACG&S is at it's usual time of 16:10 today (Thursday), so you'd see >>>>what I mean about the opening credits.
I'll try to remember!
Confirm the
terrestrial version is 544x576 4:3
but nothing looks cropped to me, maybe John's 4:3 TV isn't as well
behaved as he thinks?
Here are my captures - I managed to persuade my TVHeadend to record
from each
https://i.postimg.cc/dtcBYvmC/Sat.png (transmitted as 720x576 video,
4:3 in 16:9 frame)
https://i.postimg.cc/YqNx2Vbs/Terr.png (transmitted as 544x576)
https://i.postimg.cc/TP0Sy10B/Web.png (note that some of the frame is
hidden behind a caption that uktvplay,co.uk displays)
All seem to show the same area of picture.
J. P. Gilliver wrote:
they do seem to be using the flag properly
Yes, the adverts are flagged as 16:9 and the programme itself as 4:3
and my player (VLC) switches properly
J. P. Gilliver wrote:
The credits were only slightly cropped today - for example on
"Siegfried" it was only the tail of the G
<http://andyburns.uk/misc/acgas.jpg>
The credits were only slightly cropped today - for example on
"Siegfried" it was only the tail of the G
they do seem to be using the flag properly
I was at school in Barnard Castle (yes, the place now famous for its opticians; it's actually a town, not just a castle ruin), so knew
several of the locations, as they weren't far away (Egglestone Abbey,
for example).
Just watching All Creatures Great and Small on Drama (FreeView 20).
On 17/01/2024 16:25, J. P. Gilliver wrote:
Just watching All Creatures Great and Small on Drama (FreeView 20).There's a long running thread on Digital Spy, regarding the quality of
UKTV, and a couple have taken to contacting the station. It's a lost
cause
Read on...
https://forums.digitalspy.com/discussion/2450392/classic-eastenders-qual >ity-issues-on-uktv-drama#latest
On 18/01/2024 18:25, J. P. Gilliver wrote:
I was at school in Barnard Castle (yes, the place now famous for its >>opticians; it's actually a town, not just a castle ruin), so knew
several of the locations, as they weren't far away (Egglestone Abbey,
for example).
I know Barnard Castle. Not as well as I know Wensleydale slightly
further south but I've been through the town a fair few times and I've
been to the castle. Never been to the optician, though - unlike a
certain advisor of Boris. ;-)
It's always fun location-spotting when you know an area. A few years
I'm not sure how I didn't spot that the web version of ACGAS seems to
have a bit more picture at either side and at the bottom than the
terrestrial and satellite versions which are slightly zoomed in.
It so happens that we have the full DVD box set, so I found the same
shot on the DVD version
https://i.postimg.cc/FHfcCqcn/vlcsnap-2024-01-18-20h14m29s132.png
So the DVD is the full frame like the web, and the sat/terr versions
are zoomed in slightly. Weird.
J. P. Gilliver wrote:
NY writes
the DVD is the full frame like the web, and the sat/terr versionsI see that's 768×576.
are zoomed in slightly. Weird.
With some black at the sides, I wouldn't really call it pillarboxing,
back in the day it would have be lost in the overscan, so they zoomed
it slightly for digital broadcast?
Andy Burns writes
With some black at the sides, I wouldn't really call it pillarboxing,
back in the day it would have be lost in the overscan, so they zoomed
it slightly for digital broadcast?
No, the "pillarboxing" referred to is how it's being broadcast on
satellite, i. e. full 16:9 frame with the 4:3 frame (of actual content pixels) in the centre.
The slight zooming is something else, that's come to light.
That's an interesting suggestion, though - that it's deliberate, to deliberately throw away some of the frame, to simulate the overscan we
got with CRTs.
J. P. Gilliver wrote:
Andy Burns writes
With some black at the sides, I wouldn't really call it
pillarboxing, back in the day it would have be lost in the overscan,
so they zoomed it slightly for digital broadcast?
No, the "pillarboxing" referred to is how it's being broadcast on >>satellite, i. e. full 16:9 frame with the 4:3 frame (of actual content >>pixels) in the centre.
The satellite side bars are significant 25% vs the DVD about 4%,
that's why I said I wouldn't call the DVD version pillarboxing
The slight zooming is something else, that's come to light.
That's an interesting suggestion, though - that it's deliberate, to >>deliberately throw away some of the frame, to simulate the overscan we
got with CRTs.
not to simulate overscan, but to not show a slim black border to those >watching on 4:3 sets? How many still exist? I think I accused you of
having one!
But why would they _want_ to show such a border on CRTs?
My two main TVs are LCD. I do have CRT at another location (I'm not
there though).
On 19/01/2024 10:26, J. P. Gilliver wrote:
But why would they _want_ to show such a border on CRTs?
My two main TVs are LCD. I do have CRT at another location (I'm not
there though).
Today's daft/naive question...
Why was overscan ever a "thing" with CRTs? Why were TVs not adjusted so
the height and width of the picture just touched the edge of the
phosphor or the visible part of the screen (whichever was the more >restrictive), instead of adjusting them so the edges were off-screen?
I'd have expected the adjustment process would be to make the picture >slightly too small in each dimension, and then increase each dimension
(one at a time) until the extreme edge of the picture just disappears,
then reduce very slightly to bring it back. (While also making sure
that circles are perfectly circular, even if this means that there is a >slight border at the sides or top and bottom, if the screen is not
perfectly 4:3.)
You adjust an LED/LCD TV or computer monitor so the picture just fills
the screen (indeed it happens by default with modern equipment) so why
not do the same for CRT TV or monitor?
Why was overscan ever a "thing" with CRTs? Why were TVs not adjusted so
the height and width of the picture just touched the edge of the
phosphor or the visible part of the screen (whichever was the more restrictive), instead of adjusting them so the edges were off-screen?
Why was overscan ever a "thing" with CRTs? Why were TVs not adjusted so
the height and width of the picture just touched the edge of the
phosphor or the visible part of the screen (whichever was the more >>restrictive), instead of adjusting them so the edges were off-screen?
I'd have expected the adjustment process would be to make the picture >>slightly too small in each dimension, and then increase each dimension
(one at a time) until the extreme edge of the picture just disappears,
then reduce very slightly to bring it back. (While also making sure
that circles are perfectly circular, even if this means that there is a >>slight border at the sides or top and bottom, if the screen is not >>perfectly 4:3.)
It's what people wanted. I always used to adjust my CRTs - monochrome,
anyway - so I could see the whole raster; but most people wanted the
picture bigger even if they lost some of it - and of course programme
makers catered to that, having a "safe" area they tried to keep things
into.
On Sun, 21 Jan 2024 00:22:45 +0000, "J. P. Gilliver"
<G6JPG@255soft.uk> wrote:
[]Why was overscan ever a "thing" with CRTs? Why were TVs not adjusted so >>>the height and width of the picture just touched the edge of the
phosphor or the visible part of the screen (whichever was the more >>>restrictive), instead of adjusting them so the edges were off-screen?
[]It's what people wanted. I always used to adjust my CRTs - monochrome,
I suppose it depended on whether you thought you'd paid for the
pictures or the screen. If you've paid for the picture you want to see
the whole of it, but if you've bought an expensive TV set you've paid
for the screen so you might want to see all of it filled with picture.
It was possible to adjust height and width so they were only justBut by the end of the CRT era, with "FSTs" and mostly solid-state
beyond the edges of the screen, but such was the stability (or lack of
it) of early electronics that if you did this, the edges might later
drift into view, so it was usual to overscan a bit more to allow a
margin for error. Even the magnetic field of the Earth had a
noticeable effect if you adjusted a CRT raster very precisely and then
turned it to face a different way, so it would be no good to do this
as a factory setting.
If you adjusted for the edges there wouldn't be anything you could do
about the corners, because early CRTs had very rounded corners and you
can't fit a square peg in a round hole, as they say, but people
accepted that.
Rod.
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