• correct times.

    From Brian Gaff (Sofa)@21:1/5 to All on Fri Nov 12 08:55:53 2021
    It seems to me at the inception of Digital everything we have sacrificed
    the correct times between devices. I notice that using my radio controlled clock to switch over to a TV program that is advertised to start on the
    hour, that quite often, it is up to a minute into it when I switch.
    I guess that the timings are all over the place since the actual time
    relies on some internet derived clock. On streamed channels it can be either way out, so to speak.

    Brian

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  • From Chris J Dixon@21:1/5 to All on Fri Nov 12 10:40:21 2021
    Brian Gaff (Sofa) wrote:

    It seems to me at the inception of Digital everything we have sacrificed
    the correct times between devices. I notice that using my radio controlled >clock to switch over to a TV program that is advertised to start on the
    hour, that quite often, it is up to a minute into it when I switch.
    I guess that the timings are all over the place since the actual time
    relies on some internet derived clock. On streamed channels it can be either >way out, so to speak.

    I reckon it is also a ploy to start ahead of other channels on
    the same nominal timing (like publishing magazines progressively
    earlier each month).

    IIRC, when tackled about the issue, the official response was to
    the effect that, to make it "simpler for the viewer" timings were
    tidied up to the nearest 5 minute point.

    I raised the matter on a visit to the BBC studio locally, where I
    was actually able to sit in a control room and hear the network
    give the countdown down the line, for The One Show, in compliance
    with the printed running sheet in front of me, at 18:58. No
    explanation was forthcoming.

    Chris
    --
    Chris J Dixon Nottingham UK
    chris@cdixon.me.uk @ChrisJDixon1

    Plant amazing Acers.

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  • From NY@21:1/5 to briang1@blueyonder.co.uk on Fri Nov 12 10:28:43 2021
    "Brian Gaff (Sofa)" <briang1@blueyonder.co.uk> wrote in message news:smla6t$hfj$1@dont-email.me...
    It seems to me at the inception of Digital everything we have sacrificed
    the correct times between devices. I notice that using my radio controlled clock to switch over to a TV program that is advertised to start on the
    hour, that quite often, it is up to a minute into it when I switch.
    I guess that the timings are all over the place since the actual time
    relies on some internet derived clock. On streamed channels it can be
    either way out, so to speak.

    I'd have thought that any internet-connected device or "Rugby" radio clock would be accurate to the nearest second. I've found that the time on my landline DECT phone (synchronised whenever there's an incoming call), the
    time on my mobile phone and the time on a GPS application the mobile all
    agree to within a few seconds at worst. Computer clocks can drift: although Linux seems to resync with an NTP source fairly frequently, Windows only
    does so every few days (maybe every week) by default.

    But I agree that times quoted on broadcast or streamed media can be out by
    ten or more seconds due to network and encoding/decoding latency.

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  • From Tweed@21:1/5 to Chris J Dixon on Fri Nov 12 12:16:44 2021
    Chris J Dixon <chris@cdixon.me.uk> wrote:
    Brian Gaff (Sofa) wrote:

    It seems to me at the inception of Digital everything we have sacrificed
    the correct times between devices. I notice that using my radio controlled >> clock to switch over to a TV program that is advertised to start on the
    hour, that quite often, it is up to a minute into it when I switch.
    I guess that the timings are all over the place since the actual time
    relies on some internet derived clock. On streamed channels it can be either >> way out, so to speak.

    I reckon it is also a ploy to start ahead of other channels on
    the same nominal timing (like publishing magazines progressively
    earlier each month).

    IIRC, when tackled about the issue, the official response was to
    the effect that, to make it "simpler for the viewer" timings were
    tidied up to the nearest 5 minute point.

    I raised the matter on a visit to the BBC studio locally, where I
    was actually able to sit in a control room and hear the network
    give the countdown down the line, for The One Show, in compliance
    with the printed running sheet in front of me, at 18:58. No
    explanation was forthcoming.

    Chris

    Before they got stopped I went on a tour of New Broadcasting House, which included the One Show studios. They freely pointed out that they started
    early as an attempt to grab the audience.

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  • From MB@21:1/5 to Tweed on Fri Nov 12 13:45:42 2021
    On 12/11/2021 12:16, Tweed wrote:
    Before they got stopped I went on a tour of New Broadcasting House, which included the One Show studios. They freely pointed out that they started early as an attempt to grab the audience.

    I think it is as much to leave room for programme trails, weather
    forecasts etc.

    Wasn't the starting early to catch the audience pioneered by ITV when
    they were starting programmes about five minutes early though it easier
    for them because they have so much time wasted on adverts so not as
    obvious if the programme is a bit early.

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  • From J. P. Gilliver (John)@21:1/5 to briang1@blueyonder.co.uk on Fri Nov 12 20:46:54 2021
    On Fri, 12 Nov 2021 at 08:55:53, "Brian Gaff (Sofa)"
    <briang1@blueyonder.co.uk> wrote (my responses usually follow points
    raised):
    It seems to me at the inception of Digital everything we have sacrificed
    the correct times between devices. I notice that using my radio controlled >clock to switch over to a TV program that is advertised to start on the
    hour, that quite often, it is up to a minute into it when I switch.
    I guess that the timings are all over the place since the actual time
    relies on some internet derived clock. On streamed channels it can be either >way out, so to speak.

    Brian

    I don't think it's anything to do with timing errors - as others have
    said, those (including encoding/decoding lags) would be unlikely to
    account for more than about ten seconds. (Even a satellite link not
    _that_ long.) It's more corporate decisions - to catch audience or for
    many other reasons.

    It's certainly nothing to do with digital. I remember in (west as it was
    then!) Germany in the 1970s/'80s, the contrast was very noticeable:
    German stations were (as the stereotype might lead you to expect!)
    pretty punctual, but it wasn't that unusual for one or more of the Dutch channels, by late evening, to be running 20-25 minutes late - and, as
    far as I could tell, pretty relaxed about the fact! (Those of us
    stationed towards the west end of the British region - we were in
    Muelheim/Ruhr - could pick up Dutch telly, which carried a lot of English/American programming, in original sound with Dutch subtitles.
    [Quite fun: "Dallas" was popular then, which we got on BFBS TV a couple
    of days after it was shown in UK when the videotapes were trucked over;
    or, on Dutch TV a few weeks or months delayed; or, on German TV a year
    or two later, as they actually dubbed it - "Wer hat JR geschossen?"])
    --
    J. P. Gilliver. UMRA: 1960/<1985 MB++G()AL-IS-Ch++(p)Ar@T+H+Sh0!:`)DNAf

    The death of democracy is not likely to be an assassination from ambush.
    It will be a slow extinction from apathy, indifference, and undernourishment.
    -Robert Maynard Hutchins, educator (1899-1977)

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  • From Brian Gaff (Sofa)@21:1/5 to me@privacy.invalid on Sat Nov 13 09:13:30 2021
    Well I've seen it out more than that, If you are correct and things only
    sync at quite long intervals, then no wonder errors can build up if you are unlucky enough to have clocks that are running fast and slow for either end
    of the long string to and from your device.
    Its interesting to listen to say a bbc local radio station on FM and dab or freeview or online with several devices at the same time.
    I've seen the online one s way more delayed up to a couple of minutes when
    its bad. So remember if you really do want to hear the end of the world broadcast live, us a local FM station.

    grin

    Brian

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    The Sofa of Brian Gaff...
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    "NY" <me@privacy.invalid> wrote in message
    news:smlflj$kr5$1@dont-email.me...
    "Brian Gaff (Sofa)" <briang1@blueyonder.co.uk> wrote in message news:smla6t$hfj$1@dont-email.me...
    It seems to me at the inception of Digital everything we have sacrificed
    the correct times between devices. I notice that using my radio
    controlled clock to switch over to a TV program that is advertised to
    start on the hour, that quite often, it is up to a minute into it when I
    switch.
    I guess that the timings are all over the place since the actual time
    relies on some internet derived clock. On streamed channels it can be
    either way out, so to speak.

    I'd have thought that any internet-connected device or "Rugby" radio clock would be accurate to the nearest second. I've found that the time on my landline DECT phone (synchronised whenever there's an incoming call), the time on my mobile phone and the time on a GPS application the mobile all agree to within a few seconds at worst. Computer clocks can drift:
    although Linux seems to resync with an NTP source fairly frequently,
    Windows only does so every few days (maybe every week) by default.

    But I agree that times quoted on broadcast or streamed media can be out by ten or more seconds due to network and encoding/decoding latency.

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
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  • From Roderick Stewart@21:1/5 to usenet.tweed@gmail.com on Sat Nov 13 08:42:44 2021
    On Fri, 12 Nov 2021 12:16:44 -0000 (UTC), Tweed
    <usenet.tweed@gmail.com> wrote:

    Before they got stopped I went on a tour of New Broadcasting House, which >included the One Show studios. They freely pointed out that they started >early as an attempt to grab the audience.

    I wonder if they've ever thought of trying to make more interesting
    programmes in an attempt to grab the audience? There are some huge
    audiences for material on Youtube, Netflix etc, and they're not tied
    to timetables at all.

    Rod.

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  • From Andy Burns@21:1/5 to Tweed on Sat Nov 13 09:12:52 2021
    Tweed wrote:

    I went on a tour of New Broadcasting House, which included the One Show studios
    Shows how up to date I am, I thought it was from The Mailbox.

    But a bit of googling put me right, and stumbling over this blog, with all sorts
    of Pebble Mill and Dr Who stuff (ok, almost entirely Dr Who but the Pebble Mill pages are interesting) which I've never seen linked from here ...

    <https://pinkforyouractualpterodactyl.com>

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  • From Brian Gaff (Sofa)@21:1/5 to G6JPG@255soft.uk on Sat Nov 13 09:20:10 2021
    Yes I guess this could be the reason for the tv. As I say I did the
    experiment of just one radio channel. bbc radio Surrey for my audio
    comparison in the last message. That is a completely different issue to the
    one where a clock and a TV start time do not agree of course. I imagine in the radio case you have buffer of some sort in the player, say an echo dot,
    to avoid buffering breaks, but FM is faster, and the digital deliveries have
    a more convoluted path to take.
    Brian

    --

    This newsgroup posting comes to you directly from...
    The Sofa of Brian Gaff...
    briang1@blueyonder.co.uk
    Blind user, so no pictures please
    Note this Signature is meaningless.!
    "J. P. Gilliver (John)" <G6JPG@255soft.uk> wrote in message news:ATHQDvn+KtjhFw38@255soft.uk...
    On Fri, 12 Nov 2021 at 08:55:53, "Brian Gaff (Sofa)" <briang1@blueyonder.co.uk> wrote (my responses usually follow points
    raised):
    It seems to me at the inception of Digital everything we have sacrificed >>the correct times between devices. I notice that using my radio controlled >>clock to switch over to a TV program that is advertised to start on the >>hour, that quite often, it is up to a minute into it when I switch.
    I guess that the timings are all over the place since the actual time >>relies on some internet derived clock. On streamed channels it can be >>either
    way out, so to speak.

    Brian

    I don't think it's anything to do with timing errors - as others have
    said, those (including encoding/decoding lags) would be unlikely to
    account for more than about ten seconds. (Even a satellite link not _that_ long.) It's more corporate decisions - to catch audience or for many other reasons.

    It's certainly nothing to do with digital. I remember in (west as it was then!) Germany in the 1970s/'80s, the contrast was very noticeable: German stations were (as the stereotype might lead you to expect!) pretty
    punctual, but it wasn't that unusual for one or more of the Dutch
    channels, by late evening, to be running 20-25 minutes late - and, as far
    as I could tell, pretty relaxed about the fact! (Those of us stationed towards the west end of the British region - we were in Muelheim/Ruhr -
    could pick up Dutch telly, which carried a lot of English/American programming, in original sound with Dutch subtitles. [Quite fun: "Dallas"
    was popular then, which we got on BFBS TV a couple of days after it was
    shown in UK when the videotapes were trucked over; or, on Dutch TV a few weeks or months delayed; or, on German TV a year or two later, as they actually dubbed it - "Wer hat JR geschossen?"])
    --
    J. P. Gilliver. UMRA: 1960/<1985 MB++G()AL-IS-Ch++(p)Ar@T+H+Sh0!:`)DNAf

    The death of democracy is not likely to be an assassination from ambush.
    It will be a slow extinction from apathy, indifference, and
    undernourishment.
    -Robert Maynard Hutchins, educator (1899-1977)

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
    * Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)
  • From Chris J Dixon@21:1/5 to Andy Burns on Sun Nov 14 15:38:01 2021
    Andy Burns wrote:

    But a bit of googling put me right, and stumbling over this blog, with all sorts
    of Pebble Mill and Dr Who stuff (ok, almost entirely Dr Who but the Pebble Mill
    pages are interesting) which I've never seen linked from here ...

    <https://pinkforyouractualpterodactyl.com>

    Speaking of Pebble Mill, I have danced there on the radio more
    than once. There were actually two "Barn Dance" series recorded.
    It was quite surreal; we did the walk through (unrecorded) then
    were invited to "come on the floor", whereupon we all had to
    shuffle our feet as if we were doing so. We were naturally
    encouraged to be a bit more vocal than we would usually have
    been. Great fun though, and it apparently caused a lot of
    interest in their fact sheets.

    Even stranger was music day, one summer Sunday in 1993,
    which Radio 2 filled with all sorts of live music from around the
    country. At Pebble Mill there were both dances and concerts.
    Doing Cajun jitterbug in studio 1 at 10 am on a Sunday, with 4
    people dancing and maybe two dozen watching, as Chris Hall says
    "Come on down the front, there's just about room for one or two
    more."

    We were entertained to lunch at the adjacent BBC Club.

    I think it must have been 1972 when I was laid up in bed at home,
    after a motorcycle accident, with left arm and leg in plaster.
    Afternoon TV had just started with Crown Court, Emmerdale Farm
    (with the original Jack) and General Hospital (Linda Bellingham
    and Judy Buxton were nurses) on ITV, whilst Pebble Mill was on
    BBC.

    The TV was brought upstairs and placed at the end of the bed. My
    only remote control was being able to reach the buttons with
    my (working) toe.

    Chris
    --
    Chris J Dixon Nottingham UK
    chris@cdixon.me.uk @ChrisJDixon1

    Plant amazing Acers.

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  • From charles@21:1/5 to Chris J Dixon on Sun Nov 14 16:50:25 2021
    In article <33b2pgpvfht65k817m4oba2nisn5f57ffh@4ax.com>,
    Chris J Dixon <chris@cdixon.me.uk> wrote:
    Andy Burns wrote:

    But a bit of googling put me right, and stumbling over this blog, with
    all sorts of Pebble Mill and Dr Who stuff (ok, almost entirely Dr Who
    but the Pebble Mill pages are interesting) which I've never seen linked >from here ...

    <https://pinkforyouractualpterodactyl.com>

    Speaking of Pebble Mill,

    I was involved in the original installation work. It shows how old one is getting when what was then "state of the art" gets demolished

    --
    from KT24 in Surrey, England
    "I'd rather die of exhaustion than die of boredom" Thomas Carlyle

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