Of course, the new text includes "You can watch BBC Four programmes at
any time on BBC iPlayer on your TV", which of course is untrue (I wonder
for what proportion of the viewership, especially of BBC4)?
[In other words, I wonder what proportion of TV sets actually in use are
both "smart" and actually connected.]
J. P. Gilliver <G6JPG@255soft.uk> wrote:
Of course, the new text includes "You can watch BBC Four programmes at
any time on BBC iPlayer on your TV", which of course is untrue (I wonder
for what proportion of the viewership, especially of BBC4)?
[In other words, I wonder what proportion of TV sets actually in use are
both "smart" and actually connected.]
You can buy a box for a few tens of pounds to plug into your TV, which
allows you to watch iPlayer on your dumb TV. I've done so for a CRT TV - >needed an extra HDMI to SCART converter as the box only had HDMI and the TV >only had analogue inputs. But it worked fine.
So the statement is true: you *can*, you may just have to buy extra hardware >to do so. (and have an internet connection, of course)
Theo
I just selected BBC4 (sorry, "BBC FOUR"), forgetting it wasn't on this
time of day.
I see they've changed the "card" - may have changed it months ago, but >obviously I don't see it that often!; it's now plain white text (and
logos) on (dark) blue, not the old white on black that included
something like "if you can still see programming through this, change
channel and come back", or similar.
Of course, the new text includes "You can watch BBC Four programmes at
any time on BBC iPlayer on your TV", which of course is untrue (I wonder
for what proportion of the viewership, especially of BBC4)?
[In other words, I wonder what proportion of TV sets actually in use are
both "smart" and actually connected.]
In message <I9j*EhRkz@news.chiark.greenend.org.uk> at Sun, 9 Jul 2023 15:43:06, Theo <theom+news@chiark.greenend.org.uk> writes
J. P. Gilliver <G6JPG@255soft.uk> wrote:
Of course, the new text includes "You can watch BBC Four programmes at
any time on BBC iPlayer on your TV", which of course is untrue (I wonder >>> for what proportion of the viewership, especially of BBC4)?
[In other words, I wonder what proportion of TV sets actually in use are >>> both "smart" and actually connected.]
You can buy a box for a few tens of pounds to plug into your TV, which >>allows you to watch iPlayer on your dumb TV. I've done so for a CRT TV - >>needed an extra HDMI to SCART converter as the box only had HDMI and the
TV
only had analogue inputs. But it worked fine.
So the statement is true: you *can*, you may just have to buy extra >>hardware
to do so. (and have an internet connection, of course)
Theo
In other words, you can watch iPlayer on your MONITOR, if you shell out a
few tens of pounds, and possibly more for an adaptor, AND have an internet connection.
You can watch DVDs "on your TV" too. But not unless it has a DVD player built-in or connected.
--
J. P. Gilliver. UMRA: 1960/<1985 MB++G()AL-IS-Ch++(p)Ar@T+H+Sh0!:`)DNAf
I don't like that word [atheist]; it implies that there's a god not to believe
in - Eric Idle, quoted in RT 2016/12/10-16
I just selected BBC4 (sorry, "BBC FOUR"), forgetting it wasn't on this time >of day.
I see they've changed the "card" - may have changed it months ago, but obviously I don't see it that often!; it's now plain white text (and
logos) on (dark) blue, not the old white on black that included something like "if you can still see programming through this, change channel and
come back", or similar.
Of course, the new text includes "You can watch BBC Four programmes at any time on BBC iPlayer on your TV", which of course is untrue (I wonder for
what proportion of the viewership, especially of BBC4)?
[In other words, I wonder what proportion of TV sets actually in use are
both "smart" and actually connected.]
--
J. P. Gilliver. UMRA: 1960/<1985 MB++G()AL-IS-Ch++(p)Ar@T+H+Sh0!:`)DNAf
... each generation tends to imagine that its attitude to sex strikes just about the right balance; that by comparison its predecessors were prim and embarrassed, its successors sex-obsessed and pornified. - Julian Barnes, Radio
Times 9-15 March 2013
In other words, you can watch iPlayer on your MONITOR, if you shell out
a few tens of pounds, and possibly more for an adaptor, AND have an
internet connection.
You can watch DVDs "on your TV" too. But not unless it has a DVD player built-in or connected.
In message <I9j*EhRkz@news.chiark.greenend.org.uk> at Sun, 9 Jul 2023 15:43:06, Theo <theom+news@chiark.greenend.org.uk> writes
J. P. Gilliver <G6JPG@255soft.uk> wrote:
Of course, the new text includes "You can watch BBC Four programmes at
any time on BBC iPlayer on your TV", which of course is untrue (I wonder >>> for what proportion of the viewership, especially of BBC4)?
[In other words, I wonder what proportion of TV sets actually in use are >>> both "smart" and actually connected.]
You can buy a box for a few tens of pounds to plug into your TV, which
allows you to watch iPlayer on your dumb TV. I've done so for a CRT TV - >> needed an extra HDMI to SCART converter as the box only had HDMI and
the TV
only had analogue inputs. But it worked fine.
So the statement is true: you *can*, you may just have to buy extra
hardware
to do so. (and have an internet connection, of course)
Theo
In other words, you can watch iPlayer on your MONITOR, if you shell out
a few tens of pounds, and possibly more for an adaptor, AND have an
internet connection.
.. Or is the whole
reason for phasing out land lines via copper a ploy to give everyone broadband whether they want it or not?
is the whole reason for phasing out land lines via copper a ploy to
give everyone broadband whether they want it or not?
On Sun, 9 Jul 2023 13:47:21 +0100, "J. P. Gilliver" <G6JPG@255soft.uk>[]
wrote:
Of course, the new text includes "You can watch BBC Four programmes at
any time on BBC iPlayer on your TV", which of course is untrue (I wonder >>for what proportion of the viewership, especially of BBC4)?
[In other words, I wonder what proportion of TV sets actually in use are >>both "smart" and actually connected.]
<pedant_mode> You can watch 'the programmes' at any time just not
necessarily contemporaneous with broadcast just as you can watch films
on Netflix at any time /<pedant_mode>
Is this not the same logic that assumes everyone has a smart phone and can >use it? I despair when I note that tickets can only be bought via eventbrite >and shown on the screen of your phone when attending.
Somebody needs to force the powers that be to acknowledge there are
citizens who do not have smart anythings or the internet.. Or is the whole >reason for phasing out land lines via copper a ploy to give everyone >broadband whether they want it or not?
How broad is your band?
Brian
J. P. Gilliver <G6JPG@255soft.uk> wrote:
In other words, you can watch iPlayer on your MONITOR, if you shell out
a few tens of pounds, and possibly more for an adaptor, AND have an
internet connection.
You can watch DVDs "on your TV" too. But not unless it has a DVD player
built-in or connected.
You can't watch broadcast programmes on your TV unless your house has an >aerial (or other connection) installed and your TV is suitably tuned. Some >level of investment is necessary to unlock the functionality. For many >people with smart TVs that investment will be limited to 5 minutes setting
it up.
Theo
On Mon, 10 Jul 2023 13:18:08 +0100, Andy Burns <usenet@andyburns.uk>
wrote:
Brian Gaff wrote:That will only apply to iPlayer users and I'm not one of them.
is the whole reason for phasing out land lines via copper a ploy toWell, the BBC are now floating the idea to add the TV licence onto
give everyone broadband whether they want it or not?
broadband prices ...
Brian Gaff wrote:
is the whole reason for phasing out land lines via copper a ploy to
give everyone broadband whether they want it or not?
Well, the BBC are now floating the idea to add the TV licence onto
broadband prices ...
In message <H9j*7zVkz@news.chiark.greenend.org.uk> at Mon, 10 Jul 2023 11:14:05, Theo <theom+news@chiark.greenend.org.uk> writes
You can't watch broadcast programmes on your TV unless your house has an >aerial (or other connection) installed and your TV is suitably tuned. Some >level of investment is necessary to unlock the functionality. For many >people with smart TVs that investment will be limited to 5 minutes setting >it up.
Plus maintaining their broadband connection as well as the TV licence.
With an aerial, you only need the TV licence.
(If they have broadband _anyway_, fine - but not everyone does. Though I think they should, and maybe the end of POTS will cause it.)
J. P. Gilliver <G6JPG@255soft.uk> wrote:
In message <H9j*7zVkz@news.chiark.greenend.org.uk> at Mon, 10 Jul 2023And you can only run a TV if you have electricity.
11:14:05, Theo <theom+news@chiark.greenend.org.uk> writes
You can't watch broadcast programmes on your TV unless your house has an >>> aerial (or other connection) installed and your TV is suitably tuned. Some >>> level of investment is necessary to unlock the functionality. For manyPlus maintaining their broadband connection as well as the TV licence.
people with smart TVs that investment will be limited to 5 minutes setting >>> it up.
With an aerial, you only need the TV licence.
Not everyone has electricity. Some people are off grid, others live in caves. Where does this rabbit hole end?
Andy Burns wrote:
the BBC are now floating the idea to add the TV licence onto
broadband prices ...
That will only apply to iPlayer users and I'm not one of them.
On 10/07/2023 15:00, Stephen Wolstenholme wrote:
On Mon, 10 Jul 2023 13:18:08 +0100, Andy Burns <usenet@andyburns.uk>I think you'll find that the idea is a levy will be added to ALL
wrote:
Brian Gaff wrote:That will only apply to iPlayer users and I'm not one of them.
is the whole reason for phasing out land lines via copper a ploy toWell, the BBC are now floating the idea to add the TV licence onto
give everyone broadband whether they want it or not?
broadband prices ...
broadband contracts, so it's irrelevant whether or not you use iplayer.
As with most wizzy ideas for new taxes, no details - e.g. mobile as well
as wire/fibre? Flat rate or % of broadband fee or what?
On 10/07/2023 15:46, Theo wrote:
J. P. Gilliver <G6JPG@255soft.uk> wrote:
In message <H9j*7zVkz@news.chiark.greenend.org.uk> at Mon, 10 Jul 2023And you can only run a TV if you have electricity.
11:14:05, Theo <theom+news@chiark.greenend.org.uk> writes
You can't watch broadcast programmes on your TV unless your house hasPlus maintaining their broadband connection as well as the TV licence.
an aerial (or other connection) installed and your TV is suitably
tuned. Some level of investment is necessary to unlock the
functionality. For many people with smart TVs that investment will
be limited to 5 minutes setting it up.
With an aerial, you only need the TV licence.
In the 60s some areas of NW Scotland and the isles got electricity
around about the same time as TV signals arrived I think ?
In the 60s some areas of NW Scotland and the isles got electricity
around about the same time as TV signals arrived I think ?
On 10/07/2023 15:09, Mark Carver wrote:
On 10/07/2023 15:00, Stephen Wolstenholme wrote:
On Mon, 10 Jul 2023 13:18:08 +0100, Andy Burns <usenet@andyburns.uk>I think you'll find that the idea is a levy will be added to ALL
wrote:
Brian Gaff wrote:That will only apply to iPlayer users and I'm not one of them.
is the whole reason for phasing out land lines via copper a ploy toWell, the BBC are now floating the idea to add the TV licence onto
give everyone broadband whether they want it or not?
broadband prices ...
broadband contracts, so it's irrelevant whether or not you use iplayer.
Yep. Idea's been around a while. BBC floated it in March 2020. As with
most wizzy ideas for new taxes, no details - e.g. mobile as well as wire/fibre? Flat rate or % of broadband fee or what? (E.g. what about household with fibre + 4 mobile contracts? What about the employer-paid contract for WTF?) But I suspect the killer argument is one the HoL made
last year: could end up no more progressive than the licence fee and may discourage poor households from having broadband with nasty effects on
kids education.
Robin <rbw@outlook.com> wrote:
On 10/07/2023 15:09, Mark Carver wrote:
On 10/07/2023 15:00, Stephen Wolstenholme wrote:
On Mon, 10 Jul 2023 13:18:08 +0100, Andy Burns <usenet@andyburns.uk>I think you'll find that the idea is a levy will be added to ALL
wrote:
Brian Gaff wrote:That will only apply to iPlayer users and I'm not one of them.
is the whole reason for phasing out land lines via copper a ploy to >>>>>> give everyone broadband whether they want it or not?Well, the BBC are now floating the idea to add the TV licence onto
broadband prices ...
broadband contracts, so it's irrelevant whether or not you use iplayer.
Yep. Idea's been around a while. BBC floated it in March 2020. As with
most wizzy ideas for new taxes, no details - e.g. mobile as well as
wire/fibre? Flat rate or % of broadband fee or what? (E.g. what about
household with fibre + 4 mobile contracts? What about the employer-paid
contract for WTF?) But I suspect the killer argument is one the HoL made
last year: could end up no more progressive than the licence fee and may
discourage poor households from having broadband with nasty effects on
kids education.
It will end up on the council tax, just as Police, Fire etc are added. Easy to administer and hard to avoid. CT has reductions for single person households, the hard up etc.
On 10/07/2023 18:24, Tweed wrote:
Robin <rbw@outlook.com> wrote:
On 10/07/2023 15:09, Mark Carver wrote:
On 10/07/2023 15:00, Stephen Wolstenholme wrote:
On Mon, 10 Jul 2023 13:18:08 +0100, Andy Burns <usenet@andyburns.uk> >>>>> wrote:I think you'll find that the idea is a levy will be added to ALL
Brian Gaff wrote:That will only apply to iPlayer users and I'm not one of them.
is the whole reason for phasing out land lines via copper a ploy to >>>>>>> give everyone broadband whether they want it or not?Well, the BBC are now floating the idea to add the TV licence onto >>>>>> broadband prices ...
broadband contracts, so it's irrelevant whether or not you use iplayer. >>>>
Yep. Idea's been around a while. BBC floated it in March 2020. As with
most wizzy ideas for new taxes, no details - e.g. mobile as well as
wire/fibre? Flat rate or % of broadband fee or what? (E.g. what about
household with fibre + 4 mobile contracts? What about the employer-paid
contract for WTF?) But I suspect the killer argument is one the HoL made >>> last year: could end up no more progressive than the licence fee and may >>> discourage poor households from having broadband with nasty effects on
kids education.
It will end up on the council tax, just as Police, Fire etc are added. Easy >> to administer and hard to avoid. CT has reductions for single person
households, the hard up etc.
I've not seen the proponents of that address the fact that local
taxation is a devolved matter. (Hence e.g. there is no council tax in NI.)
On 10/07/2023 19:32, Tweed wrote:
Robin <rbw@outlook.com> wrote:
On 10/07/2023 18:24, Tweed wrote:Ok, let’s rephrase that as it will be added to your local property tax.
Robin <rbw@outlook.com> wrote:
On 10/07/2023 15:09, Mark Carver wrote:
On 10/07/2023 15:00, Stephen Wolstenholme wrote:
On Mon, 10 Jul 2023 13:18:08 +0100, Andy Burns <usenet@andyburns.uk> >>>>>>> wrote:I think you'll find that the idea is a levy will be added to ALL
Brian Gaff wrote:That will only apply to iPlayer users and I'm not one of them.
is the whole reason for phasing out land lines via copper a ploy to >>>>>>>>> give everyone broadband whether they want it or not?Well, the BBC are now floating the idea to add the TV licence onto >>>>>>>> broadband prices ...
broadband contracts, so it's irrelevant whether or not you use iplayer. >>>>>>
Yep. Idea's been around a while. BBC floated it in March 2020. As with >>>>> most wizzy ideas for new taxes, no details - e.g. mobile as well as
wire/fibre? Flat rate or % of broadband fee or what? (E.g. what about >>>>> household with fibre + 4 mobile contracts? What about the employer-paid >>>>> contract for WTF?) But I suspect the killer argument is one the HoL made >>>>> last year: could end up no more progressive than the licence fee and may >>>>> discourage poor households from having broadband with nasty effects on >>>>> kids education.
It will end up on the council tax, just as Police, Fire etc are added. Easy
to administer and hard to avoid. CT has reductions for single person
households, the hard up etc.
I've not seen the proponents of that address the fact that local
taxation is a devolved matter. (Hence e.g. there is no council tax in NI.) >>>
Germany manages it and they are very devolved.
That's exactly *not* what Germany does.
Germany charges a flat rate licence fee[1] - currently 18.36 euros per
month - per household. There are exemptions - e.g. for those getting
some means-tested benefits, disabled and students on grants. But
otherwise it's the same, flat rate whether the household is pensioner
living alone in a studio flat or a family of 6 in a Regents Park
mansion. That's the antithesis of what most proponents of using the
council tax want - a progressive charge.
And the fee is not added to local property tax. It's paid direct to the "Beitragsservice"
[1] NB the term they use - see https://www.rundfunkbeitrag.de/welcome/englisch/index_ger.html#the_licence_fee
Robin <rbw@outlook.com> wrote:
On 10/07/2023 18:24, Tweed wrote:Ok, let’s rephrase that as it will be added to your local property tax. Germany manages it and they are very devolved.
Robin <rbw@outlook.com> wrote:
On 10/07/2023 15:09, Mark Carver wrote:
On 10/07/2023 15:00, Stephen Wolstenholme wrote:
On Mon, 10 Jul 2023 13:18:08 +0100, Andy Burns <usenet@andyburns.uk> >>>>>> wrote:I think you'll find that the idea is a levy will be added to ALL
Brian Gaff wrote:That will only apply to iPlayer users and I'm not one of them.
is the whole reason for phasing out land lines via copper a ploy to >>>>>>>> give everyone broadband whether they want it or not?Well, the BBC are now floating the idea to add the TV licence onto >>>>>>> broadband prices ...
broadband contracts, so it's irrelevant whether or not you use iplayer. >>>>>
Yep. Idea's been around a while. BBC floated it in March 2020. As with >>>> most wizzy ideas for new taxes, no details - e.g. mobile as well as
wire/fibre? Flat rate or % of broadband fee or what? (E.g. what about >>>> household with fibre + 4 mobile contracts? What about the employer-paid >>>> contract for WTF?) But I suspect the killer argument is one the HoL made >>>> last year: could end up no more progressive than the licence fee and may >>>> discourage poor households from having broadband with nasty effects on >>>> kids education.
It will end up on the council tax, just as Police, Fire etc are added. Easy >>> to administer and hard to avoid. CT has reductions for single person
households, the hard up etc.
I've not seen the proponents of that address the fact that local
taxation is a devolved matter. (Hence e.g. there is no council tax in NI.) >>
Ah, things have changed since I lived in Germany 40 years ago.
Anyway, I’m fairly sure the BBC will end up being paid for from domestic >property taxes. A broadband tax is far too complicated.
In the 60s some areas of NW Scotland and the isles got electricity
around about the same time as TV signals arrived I think ?
When I was on South Uist (mid '70s) checking new transmitter coverage, a
lady came out of her house and "we haven't got the electric". So, you're >right
When I was on South Uist (mid '70s) checking new transmitter coverage, a
lady came out of her house and "we haven't got the electric". So, you're right
I've not seen the proponents of that address the fact that local
taxation is a devolved matter. (Hence e.g. there is no council tax in NI.)
On 10/07/2023 19:00, charles wrote:
When I was on South Uist (mid '70s) checking new transmitter coverage, a lady came out of her house and "we haven't got the electric". So, you're right
I think by that time, it would often be small groups of houses that were below the threshold needed to get a transmitter,
Have you tried buying paraffin for Tilley lamps recently? Only one
shop around here stocks it now.
On Mon, 10 Jul 23 18:00:02 UTC, charles <charles@candehope.me.uk>
wrote:
In the 60s some areas of NW Scotland and the isles got electricity
around about the same time as TV signals arrived I think ?
When I was on South Uist (mid '70s) checking new transmitter coverage, a >lady came out of her house and "we haven't got the electric". So, you're >right
In the 60s, a rented cottage near Aviemore that our family sometimes
went to on holiday only had 'the electric' in the toilet - an Ever
Ready 996 battery wired through a wall mounted switch to a 6 volt
torch bulb in a little batten holder on the ceiling. In the living
room when it began to get dark we lit the Tilley lamp.
liz@poppyrecords.invalid.invalid (Liz Tuddenham) wrote:
Have you tried buying paraffin for Tilley lamps recently? Only one
shop around here stocks it now.
B&Q do, and some garden centres, google says The Range, Homebase and
most heating oils suppliers ...
In message <jvknaidlhjvlo6set46mt5348jk8t168mr@4ax.com> at Mon, 10 Jul
2023 10:51:11, Scott <newsgroups@gefion.myzen.co.uk> writes
On Sun, 9 Jul 2023 13:47:21 +0100, "J. P. Gilliver" <G6JPG@255soft.uk> >>wrote:[]
Of course, the new text includes "You can watch BBC Four programmes at >>>any time on BBC iPlayer on your TV", which of course is untrue (I wonder >>>for what proportion of the viewership, especially of BBC4)?
[In other words, I wonder what proportion of TV sets actually in use are >>>both "smart" and actually connected.]
<pedant_mode> You can watch 'the programmes' at any time just not >>necessarily contemporaneous with broadcast just as you can watch films
on Netflix at any time /<pedant_mode>
<pedant>You can only "watch . iPlayer on your TV" if you have (a) a smart
TV (b) a broadband connection, and (c) the two are connected. The
incessant plugging of iPlayer (e. g. "press red to watch it") _never_ mentions any of these, all of which are _in addition to_ what the person
they are plugging it to has to have done to receive the plugs.</pedant>
I haven't seen the national lottery use the "it could be you" advertising line for a while; I wonder if that's because it's incomplete without "if
you buy a ticket", and they'd had their knuckles rapped and/or too many complaints.
I wondered about leaving off the "</pedant>", as I usually operate in somewhat-pedant mode anyway. (-:
--
J. P. Gilliver. UMRA: 1960/<1985 MB++G()AL-IS-Ch++(p)Ar@T+H+Sh0!:`)DNAf
My friend David had his ID stolen - now he's just Dav
*IF* the solution _is_ to actually _give_ everyone broadband - i. e.
provide it at no more than the line rental charge - then I'd accept it*,
but I very much doubt either the government or the ISPs have any
intention of doing away with that revenue stream. I've thought for some
time that the splitting of the charge into line rental and broadband is increasingly arbitrary (and leads to many dishonest marketing
practices), but without legislation - from a government that knows what
it's doing, so that's a pipedream - it won't happen.
J. P. Gilliver <G6JPG@255soft.uk> wrote:
*IF* the solution _is_ to actually _give_ everyone broadband - i. e.
provide it at no more than the line rental charge - then I'd accept it*,
but I very much doubt either the government or the ISPs have any
intention of doing away with that revenue stream. I've thought for some
time that the splitting of the charge into line rental and broadband is
increasingly arbitrary (and leads to many dishonest marketing
practices), but without legislation - from a government that knows what
it's doing, so that's a pipedream - it won't happen.
Splitting broadband and line rental for marketing purposes has been banned since 2016: https://www.ispreview.co.uk/index.php/2016/05/advert-watchdog-forces-uk-isps-include-line-rental-broadband-price.html
(there may be non-marketing places it still lurks, eg pricing breakdowns
on
customers bills. But those breakdowns are largely fictional)
Well as I have said elsewhere, I think that in the main if I do have an >internet connection, I'd not use the wifi one for my Samsung since it seems >far more reliable directly wired to the router. However, said set only 2020 >seems in its latest apps to have lost the ability to speak with the internal >voiceview or whatever Samsung call it, ie its fine on terrestrial and >settings, so most people seem to be going down the firestick route which of >course puts you back on wifi and adds yet another remote control to have to >find. Sigh.
Brian
On 11 Jul 2023 12:10:09 +0100 (BST), Theo
<theom+news@chiark.greenend.org.uk> wrote:
Splitting broadband and line rental for marketing purposes has been banned >>since 2016: >>https://www.ispreview.co.uk/index.php/2016/05/advert-watchdog-forces-uk-isps-include-line-rental-broadband-price.html
Soon to be irrelevant, as there won't be a line to rent.
J. P. Gilliver <G6JPG@255soft.uk> wrote:
*IF* the solution _is_ to actually _give_ everyone broadband - i. e.
provide it at no more than the line rental charge - then I'd accept it*,
but I very much doubt either the government or the ISPs have any
intention of doing away with that revenue stream. I've thought for some
time that the splitting of the charge into line rental and broadband is
increasingly arbitrary (and leads to many dishonest marketing
practices), but without legislation - from a government that knows what
it's doing, so that's a pipedream - it won't happen.
Splitting broadband and line rental for marketing purposes has been banned >since 2016: >https://www.ispreview.co.uk/index.php/2016/05/advert-watchdog-forces-uk- >isps-include-line-rental-broadband-price.html
(there may be non-marketing places it still lurks, eg pricing breakdowns on >customers bills. But those breakdowns are largely fictional)
TheoJohn
Robin wrote:
As with most wizzy ideas for new taxes, no details - e.g. mobile as
well as wire/fibre? Flat rate or % of broadband fee or what?
Maybe they fancy linking the licence price to something that's on the inflation+X% model?
"Roderick Stewart" <rjfs@escapetime.myzen.co.uk> wrote in message news:ugeqaitavj7nbf47916798nsttcuj0th80@4ax.com...
On 11 Jul 2023 12:10:09 +0100 (BST), Theo <theom+news@chiark.greenend.org.uk> wrote:
Splitting broadband and line rental for marketing purposes has been banned >>since 2016: >>https://www.ispreview.co.uk/index.php/2016/05/advert-watchdog-forces-uk-isps-include-line-rental-broadband-price.html
Soon to be irrelevant, as there won't be a line to rent.
Won't there? What about people with FTTP (after POTS has been withdrawn) who only want a phone line for phone calls and don't need/want broadband? Will they be charged a lower monthly charge than some who wants broadband? How
are VOIP phone calls charged? I imagine if VOIP costs money, there will be a rise in Skype etc calls - though I imagine many people already use Skype for international calls, even if it's initiated as an email to say "Can you be
at your computer at xx:00 GMT so I can call you by Skype". I presume Skype etc has made a big dent into phone call revenues, especially international ones where calls charges are higher and are not covered by call plans.
On 11 Jul 2023 12:10:09 +0100 (BST), Theo
<theom+news@chiark.greenend.org.uk> wrote:
Splitting broadband and line rental for marketing purposes has been banned >>since 2016: >>https://www.ispreview.co.uk/index.php/2016/05/advert-watchdog-forces-uk >>-isps-include-line-rental-broadband-price.html
Soon to be irrelevant, as there won't be a line to rent.
Rod.
Splitting broadband and line rental for marketing purposes has been banned >since 2016: >https://www.ispreview.co.uk/index.php/2016/05/advert-watchdog-forces-uk-isps-include-line-rental-broadband-price.html
You don't have to use wi-fi with a Firestick. They do an ethernet
adaptor
Max Demian <max_demian@bigfoot.com> wrote:
On 10/07/2023 17:56, Andy Burns wrote:
Robin wrote:
As with most wizzy ideas for new taxes, no details - e.g. mobile as
well as wire/fibre? Flat rate or % of broadband fee or what?
Maybe they fancy linking the licence price to something that's on the
inflation+X% model?
I note that no-one's found where the 3.9% as in inflation+3.9% comes
from. A rather odd figure.
BT came up with it, and everyone else decided they didn't want to 'miss a >revenue opportunity' by picking a lower figure:
https://www.theguardian.com/business/2023/jun/27/why-are-uk-telecoms-fir >ms-imposing-inflation-busting-bills
Damn! There goes my excuse for not doing the ironing with my paraffin-powered Tilley iron.
On 10/07/2023 17:56, Andy Burns wrote:
Robin wrote:
As with most wizzy ideas for new taxes, no details - e.g. mobile as
well as wire/fibre? Flat rate or % of broadband fee or what?
Maybe they fancy linking the licence price to something that's on the inflation+X% model?
I note that no-one's found where the 3.9% as in inflation+3.9% comes
from. A rather odd figure.
On 10/07/2023 15:00, Stephen Wolstenholme wrote:
On Mon, 10 Jul 2023 13:18:08 +0100, Andy Burns <usenet@andyburns.uk>I think you'll find that the idea is a levy will be added to ALL
wrote:
Brian Gaff wrote:That will only apply to iPlayer users and I'm not one of them.
is the whole reason for phasing out land lines via copper a ploy toWell, the BBC are now floating the idea to add the TV licence onto
give everyone broadband whether they want it or not?
broadband prices ...
broadband contracts, so it's irrelevant whether or not you use iplayer.
A bit like all those schools you pay for via council tax, despite having
no children ?
In message <ugeqaitavj7nbf47916798nsttcuj0th80@4ax.com> at Tue, 11 Jul
2023 12:17:25, Roderick Stewart <rjfs@escapetime.myzen.co.uk> writes
On 11 Jul 2023 12:10:09 +0100 (BST), Theo >><theom+news@chiark.greenend.org.uk> wrote:
Splitting broadband and line rental for marketing purposes has been banned >>>since 2016: >>>https://www.ispreview.co.uk/index.php/2016/05/advert-watchdog-forces-uk >>>-isps-include-line-rental-broadband-price.html
Soon to be irrelevant, as there won't be a line to rent.
Rod.
There will be a line - either fibre or copper. Whether charging
separately for its rental will cease (as I think it already has for FTTC >people), we'll have to wait to see - I hope so.
Roderick Stewart wrote:
You don't have to use wi-fi with a Firestick. They do an ethernet
adaptor
similar for chromecasts, you can either use a USB PSU with inbuilt
ethernet port, or use a USB hub and the plug an ethernet dongle (and
keyboard if required) into the hub (I haven't tried the hub method).
Roderick Stewart <rjfs@escapetime.myzen.co.uk> wrote:
On Mon, 10 Jul 23 18:00:02 UTC, charles <charles@candehope.me.uk>
wrote:
In the 60s some areas of NW Scotland and the isles got electricity
around about the same time as TV signals arrived I think ?
When I was on South Uist (mid '70s) checking new transmitter coverage, a
lady came out of her house and "we haven't got the electric". So, you're
right
In the 60s, a rented cottage near Aviemore that our family sometimes
went to on holiday only had 'the electric' in the toilet - an Ever
Ready 996 battery wired through a wall mounted switch to a 6 volt
torch bulb in a little batten holder on the ceiling. In the living
room when it began to get dark we lit the Tilley lamp.
Have you tried buying paraffin for Tilley lamps recently? Only one
shop around here stocks it now.
No maybe, but shoving it into the mains can cause a lot of RF interference.
On Tue, 11 Jul 2023 12:50:41 +0100, "J. P. Gilliver"[]
<G6JPG@255soft.uk> wrote:
There will be a line - either fibre or copper. Whether charging
separately for its rental will cease (as I think it already has for FTTC >>people), we'll have to wait to see - I hope so.
Eventually it will all be fibre. It may take some time, but they won't
want the cost and inconvenience of coping with two systems.
Rod.
In message <measaitht6f43kef5q2n0lv9n9frbb01ce@4ax.com> at Wed, 12 Jul
2023 05:23:50, Roderick Stewart <rjfs@escapetime.myzen.co.uk> writes
On Tue, 11 Jul 2023 12:50:41 +0100, "J. P. Gilliver"[]
<G6JPG@255soft.uk> wrote:
There will be a line - either fibre or copper. Whether charging
separately for its rental will cease (as I think it already has for FTTC >>> people), we'll have to wait to see - I hope so.
Eventually it will all be fibre. It may take some time, but they won't
want the cost and inconvenience of coping with two systems.
Rod.
(The point about separate charging remains. Though I don't know if
anyone already on fibre is paying a separate "line rental" [fibre rental
if you wish] charge.)
There's an awful lot of copper (or aluminium etc.) about - and it'll be
a huge job, changing all the connections - digging trenches (some wires
will have been buried for a lot of a century), sorting out access to
people's premises, sorting out wayleaves (where the wire crosses a third party's land - or communal property, e. g. in blocks of flats), and so
on. I imagine the cost of coping with two systems will be pretty minimal compared to the cost of sorting that lot out, and won't be seen as significant until the copper percentage is pretty tiny (which I very
much doubt it is now).
In message <measaitht6f43kef5q2n0lv9n9frbb01ce@4ax.com> at Wed, 12 Jul
2023 05:23:50, Roderick Stewart <rjfs@escapetime.myzen.co.uk> writes
On Tue, 11 Jul 2023 12:50:41 +0100, "J. P. Gilliver"[]
<G6JPG@255soft.uk> wrote:
There will be a line - either fibre or copper. Whether charging
separately for its rental will cease (as I think it already has for FTTC >>> people), we'll have to wait to see - I hope so.
Eventually it will all be fibre. It may take some time, but they won't
want the cost and inconvenience of coping with two systems.
Rod.
(The point about separate charging remains. Though I don't know if
anyone already on fibre is paying a separate "line rental" [fibre rental
if you wish] charge.)
There's an awful lot of copper (or aluminium etc.) about - and it'll be
a huge job, changing all the connections - digging trenches (some wires
will have been buried for a lot of a century), sorting out access to
people's premises, sorting out wayleaves (where the wire crosses a third party's land - or communal property, e. g. in blocks of flats), and so
on. I imagine the cost of coping with two systems will be pretty minimal compared to the cost of sorting that lot out, and won't be seen as significant until the copper percentage is pretty tiny (which I very
much doubt it is now).
(The point about separate charging remains. Though I don't know if
anyone already on fibre is paying a separate "line rental" [fibre rental
if you wish] charge.)
There's an awful lot of copper (or aluminium etc.) about - and it'll be
a huge job, changing all the connections - digging trenches (some wires
will have been buried for a lot of a century), sorting out access to
people's premises, sorting out wayleaves (where the wire crosses a third party's land - or communal property, e. g. in blocks of flats), and so
on. I imagine the cost of coping with two systems will be pretty minimal compared to the cost of sorting that lot out, and won't be seen as significant until the copper percentage is pretty tiny (which I very
much doubt it is now).
Presumably they'll withdraw it from _existing_ customers not long after
that.
Theo wrote:
Once they have wired an exchange area for fibre, Openreach stop
selling copper products:
They're not going to sell copper voice lines (to new customers) after
this September.
J. P. Gilliver <G6JPG@255soft.uk> wrote:
(The point about separate charging remains. Though I don't know if
anyone already on fibre is paying a separate "line rental" [fibre rental
if you wish] charge.)
Only if they take an analogue phone with a separate line in addition to FTTP >(from a different provider perhaps). I think the term 'line rental' has >largely been phased out.
There's an awful lot of copper (or aluminium etc.) about - and it'll be
a huge job, changing all the connections - digging trenches (some wires
will have been buried for a lot of a century), sorting out access to
people's premises, sorting out wayleaves (where the wire crosses a third
party's land - or communal property, e. g. in blocks of flats), and so
on. I imagine the cost of coping with two systems will be pretty minimal
compared to the cost of sorting that lot out, and won't be seen as
significant until the copper percentage is pretty tiny (which I very
much doubt it is now).
It's a big job, but it's happening. According to Ofcom, "some 48% of UK >homes and businesses had access to a “full fibre” network in January 2023"
https://www.ispreview.co.uk/index.php/2020/04/summary-of-full-fibre-buil >d-progress-across-uk-broadband-isps.html--
It's not just BT Openreach but some other large and dozens of smaller ISPs >too.
Once they have wired an exchange area for fibre, Openreach stop selling >copper products: >https://www.openreach.com/fibre-broadband/retiring-the-copper-network
Theo
Once they have wired an exchange area for fibre, Openreach stop selling copper products:
In message <kh8711F2fghU1@mid.individual.net> at Wed, 12 Jul 2023
18:42:59, Andy Burns <usenet@andyburns.uk> writes
Theo wrote:Presumably they'll withdraw it from _existing_ customers not long after
Once they have wired an exchange area for fibre, Openreach stop
selling copper products:
They're not going to sell copper voice lines (to new customers) after
this September.
that.
On 12/07/2023 20:41, Robin wrote:
The plan is by end-2025 there'll be no analogue, ISDN, SMPF, MPF or Narrowband. All gone.
I suspect that is optimistic (or should I say pessimistic?).
I was told by a BT engineer that they will doing the customers with a
poor broadband connection first - presumably mainly rural.
The plan is by end-2025 there'll be no analogue, ISDN, SMPF, MPF or Narrowband. All gone.
Robin wrote:
The plan is by end-2025 there'll be no analogue, ISDN, SMPF, MPF or
Narrowband. All gone.
I suspect that is optimistic (or should I say pessimistic?).
MB <MB@nospam.net> wrote:
On 12/07/2023 20:41, Robin wrote:
The plan is by end-2025 there'll be no analogue, ISDN, SMPF, MPF or
Narrowband. All gone.
I suspect that is optimistic (or should I say pessimistic?).
I was told by a BT engineer that they will doing the customers with a
poor broadband connection first - presumably mainly rural.
A lot of people confuse the switch-off of analogue voice with the switch-off of copper broadband (ADSL and FTTC). The target for analogue voice
switchoff is end 2025 (moving everyone onto VOIP products they're calling 'digital voice' running over their existing DSL), but FTTC in particular
will be with us for a while longer. There is no target to get everyone on FTTP by end 2025.
The withdrawal of analogue voice products means customers will be
moved onto SOGEA (FTTC without analogue voice) or SOADSL (ADSL
without analogue voice).
On 12/07/2023 22:41, Theo wrote:
MB <MB@nospam.net> wrote:
On 12/07/2023 20:41, Robin wrote:
The plan is by end-2025 there'll be no analogue, ISDN, SMPF, MPF or
Narrowband. All gone.
I suspect that is optimistic (or should I say pessimistic?).
I was told by a BT engineer that they will doing the customers with a
poor broadband connection first - presumably mainly rural.
A lot of people confuse the switch-off of analogue voice with the switch-off
of copper broadband (ADSL and FTTC). The target for analogue voice switchoff is end 2025 (moving everyone onto VOIP products they're calling 'digital voice' running over their existing DSL), but FTTC in particular will be with us for a while longer. There is no target to get everyone on FTTP by end 2025.
AIUI wholesale line rental is to be withdrawn at the end of 2025 and
"that withdrawal will also apply to any broadband product (SMPF or
*FTTC* [emphasis added]) associated with a WLR PSTN line"[1]. SOGEA etc instead.
Theo wrote:
The withdrawal of analogue voice products means customers will be
moved onto SOGEA (FTTC without analogue voice) or SOADSL (ADSL
without analogue voice).
Don't forget the dozens of customers who'll move to SOGFAST
Robin <rbw@outlook.com> wrote:
On 12/07/2023 22:41, Theo wrote:
MB <MB@nospam.net> wrote:
On 12/07/2023 20:41, Robin wrote:
The plan is by end-2025 there'll be no analogue, ISDN, SMPF, MPF or
Narrowband. All gone.
I suspect that is optimistic (or should I say pessimistic?).
I was told by a BT engineer that they will doing the customers with a
poor broadband connection first - presumably mainly rural.
A lot of people confuse the switch-off of analogue voice with the switch-off
of copper broadband (ADSL and FTTC). The target for analogue voice
switchoff is end 2025 (moving everyone onto VOIP products they're calling >>> 'digital voice' running over their existing DSL), but FTTC in particular >>> will be with us for a while longer. There is no target to get everyone on >>> FTTP by end 2025.
AIUI wholesale line rental is to be withdrawn at the end of 2025 and
"that withdrawal will also apply to any broadband product (SMPF or
*FTTC* [emphasis added]) associated with a WLR PSTN line"[1]. SOGEA etc
instead.
Wholesale line rental (WLR3) is an analogue voice product. That is
something that will be withdrawn. The withdrawal of analogue voice products means customers will be moved onto SOGEA (FTTC without analogue voice) or SOADSL (ADSL without analogue voice). Neither will affect the copper lines, which will stay in operation able to carry FTTC or ADSL, although there will need to be a migration at the Openreach end.
Customers on WLR3 voice who take FTTC or ADSL from the same provider will be migrated to SOGEA or SOADSL when their phone is moved to 'digital voice' (or at some point afterwards when the ISP does the migration).
There is some trickiness for people who have WLR3 voice from one company and ADSL/FTTC from another, because effectively their voice connection will
cease to exist. Solutions exist but a migration plan for them has not been announced, to my knowledge.
None of this has anything to do with FTTP.
Wholesale line rental (WLR3) is an analogue voice product. That is
something that will be withdrawn. The withdrawal of analogue voice products >means customers will be moved onto SOGEA (FTTC without analogue voice) or >SOADSL (ADSL without analogue voice). Neither will affect the copper lines, >which will stay in operation able to carry FTTC or ADSL, although there will >need to be a migration at the Openreach end.
Customers on WLR3 voice who take FTTC or ADSL from the same provider will be >migrated to SOGEA or SOADSL when their phone is moved to 'digital voice' (or >at some point afterwards when the ISP does the migration).
There is some trickiness for people who have WLR3 voice from one company and >ADSL/FTTC from another, because effectively their voice connection will
cease to exist. Solutions exist but a migration plan for them has not been >announced, to my knowledge.
None of this has anything to do with FTTP.
TheoJohn
On 13/07/2023 12:38, Theo wrote:
Wholesale line rental (WLR3) is an analogue voice product. That is something that will be withdrawn. The withdrawal of analogue voice products
means customers will be moved onto SOGEA (FTTC without analogue voice) or SOADSL (ADSL without analogue voice). Neither will affect the copper lines,
which will stay in operation able to carry FTTC or ADSL, although there will
need to be a migration at the Openreach end.
Customers on WLR3 voice who take FTTC or ADSL from the same provider will be
migrated to SOGEA or SOADSL when their phone is moved to 'digital voice' (or
at some point afterwards when the ISP does the migration).
There is some trickiness for people who have WLR3 voice from one company and
ADSL/FTTC from another, because effectively their voice connection will cease to exist. Solutions exist but a migration plan for them has not been announced, to my knowledge.
None of this has anything to do with FTTP.
I don't think I said or implied it was anything to do with FTTP. I just don't think it helps to say that FTTC will be with us after 2025 when
FTTC as a product will cease.
In message <I9j*oI-kz@news.chiark.greenend.org.uk> at Thu, 13 Jul 2023 12:38:34, Theo <theom+news@chiark.greenend.org.uk> writes
[]
Wholesale line rental (WLR3) is an analogue voice product. That is
(It doesn't help clarity referring to a "service" or "provision" as a "product", although I know it's acceptable business practice. [Not
getting at Theo, who's just relaying Openreach or whatever.])
something that will be withdrawn. The withdrawal of analogue voice products >means customers will be moved onto SOGEA (FTTC without analogue voice) or >SOADSL (ADSL without analogue voice). Neither will affect the copper lines, >which will stay in operation able to carry FTTC or ADSL, although there will >need to be a migration at the Openreach end.
The _concept_ of a separate charge for the line maintenance (whatever
it's actually made of) remains as something I could see some companies
trying to retain or reintroduce; I sincerely hope none do, since we pay
a fixed rate anyway, so arbitrarily splitting that into two (or more!)
would seem silly.
(Will VoIP telephone provision cease to be per-minute [with allowances
or not]? Those who already have it, is it? Or only for calls to certain destinations/types of number?)
Customers on WLR3 voice who take FTTC or ADSL from the same provider will be >migrated to SOGEA or SOADSL when their phone is moved to 'digital voice' (or >at some point afterwards when the ISP does the migration).
There is some trickiness for people who have WLR3 voice from one company and >ADSL/FTTC from another, because effectively their voice connection will >cease to exist. Solutions exist but a migration plan for them has not been >announced, to my knowledge.
Probably quite a small percentage, now. (Not sure why I say that; IIRR
last time I looked into the possibility, moneysavingexpert said that
though such arrangements remained _available_, "bundled" ones usually
worked out cheaper anyway. That was a few years ago though.)
None of this has anything to do with FTTP.
No, it's the "product" or "offering", not how it's delivered.
MB <MB@nospam.net> wrote:
On 12/07/2023 20:41, Robin wrote:
The plan is by end-2025 there'll be no analogue, ISDN, SMPF, MPF or
Narrowband. All gone.
I suspect that is optimistic (or should I say pessimistic?).
I was told by a BT engineer that they will doing the customers with a
poor broadband connection first - presumably mainly rural.
A lot of people confuse the switch-off of analogue voice with the
switch-off
of copper broadband (ADSL and FTTC). The target for analogue voice
switchoff is end 2025 (moving everyone onto VOIP products they're calling 'digital voice' running over their existing DSL), but FTTC in particular
will be with us for a while longer. There is no target to get everyone on FTTP by end 2025.
"Theo" <theom+news@chiark.greenend.org.uk> wrote in message news:J9j*cE8kz@news.chiark.greenend.org.uk...
MB <MB@nospam.net> wrote:
On 12/07/2023 20:41, Robin wrote:
The plan is by end-2025 there'll be no analogue, ISDN, SMPF, MPF or
Narrowband. All gone.
I suspect that is optimistic (or should I say pessimistic?).
I was told by a BT engineer that they will doing the customers with a
poor broadband connection first - presumably mainly rural.
How will they cater for houses in very small communities (eg five houses and two farms) which are about 2 miles by road (maybe 1.5 in a straight line) from a BTOR cabinet.
What bitrate does VOIP need? Will it work over a 500 kb/sec (down) / 50 kb/sec (up) ADSL connection?
Will they run fibre even to very small isolated communities, or will they shorten the route of the existing copper to give FTTC?
The house I'm thinking of (my parents' holiday cottage) has a phone line which goes all the way back to the exchange, about 6 miles away; for some reason it passes fairly close to the FTTC cabinets (covered in "Get your fibre now" adverts) but doesn't actually connect in there, either for ADSL
or VDSL. Given the 6-mile cable run to the exchange, internet speeds are dire.
Ah, so those people with good FTTC/VDSL won't be *required* to change to
FTTP (unless they want the faster speed). I presume the VOIP-analogue converter just plugs into an Ethernet port on your router - if you want to carry on using your cordless DECT phone rather than getting an all-digital phone system instead.
The lack of force-feeding fibre is good news for us. If BTOR had insisted on replacing our copper drop cable and wiring from there to the various
sockets, it would have been a logistical problem because the copper cable reaches the house in a place that would need crawl boards over a roof to reach, and they'd probably then bring the fibre in through a window frame at a point in the living room where there is no mains power for the fibre-to-IP interface (*); getting Ethernet from there to the route would be OK because modern Cat7 is flat so it can tuck under the edge of carpets around the room to the point where we have the router. Or else they'd bring it in via the front door (where there is mains) but routing Cat 7 would be a real problem because there is a room in between which has wall-to-wall hardwood flooring, so no convenient carpet to hide the cable between carpet and skirting board.
(*) Lift carpet, chase out a channel in the concrete floor for an armoured mains cable spur from a socket on the other side of a doorway, backfill, install new mains socket. A faff, but not impossible.
The VOIP converter is inside the router, there's a phone socket on the back. >If you want to go to a third party VOIP service than that uses a separate >box.[]
(_Will_ it support pulse dialling? I'll be surprised. Though presumablyThis claims to support using pulse and tone dial phones over VOIP
it _does_ supply the same sort of power the exchange currently does, for corded 'phones with some electronics in. Though maybe not enough to ring
a mechanical bell.)
J. P. Gilliver <G6JPG@255soft.uk> wrote:[]
(Will VoIP telephone provision cease to be per-minute [with allowances
or not]? Those who already have it, is it? Or only for calls to certain
destinations/types of number?)
You can PAYG or take an allowance ('NNN minutes per month') or bundle >('unlimited weekends'), it's up to you. Different providers have different
Before we got bogged down in the weeds of Openreach, I just wanted to make
it clear that the copper from the cabinet is not going anytime soon, for a >lot of people. Many seem to misunderstand about this.
Theo
On 13/07/2023 22:34, J. P. Gilliver wrote:
(_Will_ it support pulse dialling? I'll be surprised. Though presumablyThis claims to support using pulse and tone dial phones over VOIP
it _does_ supply the same sort of power the exchange currently does, for
corded 'phones with some electronics in. Though maybe not enough to ring
a mechanical bell.)
circuits. It might even work with OpenReach's version.
Reading the fine print it seems to only convert pulse dialling to tone >dialling, though.
https://www.vintagetelephony.co.uk/product/pulse-to-tone-converter-dial- >a-tone-dialatone
In short, however Openreach call it, the copper between you and the cabinet >will, for many people, still be carrying your broadband after the end of >2025. It won't have a voice circuit on it, but it's not being withdrawn for >data.
Theo wrote:
the copper between you and the cabinet will, for many people, still
be carrying your broadband after the end of 2025.
But only until that copper cable develops a fault perhaps?
If this happens in an area where FTTP is available, it must eventually
become standard practice to abandon the copper and tell the customer
that a change to fibre is the only option.
Roderick Stewart wrote:
Theo wrote:
the copper between you and the cabinet will, for many people, still
be carrying your broadband after the end of 2025.
But only until that copper cable develops a fault perhaps?
Eh? if there's no FTTP, they'll have to fix the copper to keep FTTC
running, just like today.
there are fewer and fewer Openreach staff with the experience and
training to diagnose and fix copper/analogue faults.
On 13 Jul 2023 15:42:33 +0100 (BST), Theo
<theom+news@chiark.greenend.org.uk> wrote:
In short, however Openreach call it, the copper between you and the cabinet >will, for many people, still be carrying your broadband after the end of >2025. It won't have a voice circuit on it, but it's not being withdrawn for >data.
But only until that copper cable develops a fault perhaps?
If this happens in an area where FTTP is available, it must eventually
become standard practice to abandon the copper and tell the customer
that a change to fibre is the only option.
I don't think there's much beyond software needed to implement it, so it'll probably be down to whatever the box manufacturer put in the firmware.
In message <H9j*byalz@news.chiark.greenend.org.uk> at Thu, 13 Jul 2023 16:28:05, Theo <theom+news@chiark.greenend.org.uk> writes
[]
The VOIP converter is inside the router, there's a phone socket on the back. >If you want to go to a third party VOIP service than that uses a separate >box.[]
On the back of my latest router from PlusNet (a "hub 2"), there's a taped-over socket (it says on the tape "digital voice customers only");
I presume that's it. I've just had a look under the tape, and it looks
like a normal BT type telephone socket (i. e. it's a different connector
to the row of ethernet sockets).
(_Will_ it support pulse dialling? I'll be surprised. Though presumably
it _does_ supply the same sort of power the exchange currently does, for corded 'phones with some electronics in. Though maybe not enough to ring
a mechanical bell.)
Mark Carver wrote:If I'm still on FTTC in 2028, I might ping you for his contact details !
there are fewer and fewer Openreach staff with the experience and
training to diagnose and fix copper/analogue faults.
Yep, a schoolfriend of mine left at the end of the 5th form to work
for BT, he still works for them today up poles and down manholes. His
patch seem to keep extending and he's forever on standby ...
In message <kh8711F2fghU1@mid.individual.net> at Wed, 12 Jul 2023
18:42:59, Andy Burns <usenet@andyburns.uk> writes
Theo wrote:Presumably they'll withdraw it from _existing_ customers not long after
Once they have wired an exchange area for fibre, Openreach stop
selling copper products:
They're not going to sell copper voice lines (to new customers) after
this September.
that.
J. P. Gilliver <G6JPG@255soft.uk> wrote:
In message <H9j*byalz@news.chiark.greenend.org.uk> at Thu, 13 Jul 2023
16:28:05, Theo <theom+news@chiark.greenend.org.uk> writes
[]
The VOIP converter is inside the router, there's a phone socket on the back.[]
If you want to go to a third party VOIP service than that uses a separate >>> box.
On the back of my latest router from PlusNet (a "hub 2"), there's a
taped-over socket (it says on the tape "digital voice customers only");
I presume that's it. I've just had a look under the tape, and it looks
like a normal BT type telephone socket (i. e. it's a different connector
to the row of ethernet sockets).
That's the one. If you have an old router without a phone socket your ISP will send you a new one.
(_Will_ it support pulse dialling? I'll be surprised. Though presumably
it _does_ supply the same sort of power the exchange currently does, for
corded 'phones with some electronics in. Though maybe not enough to ring
a mechanical bell.)
Some ATA (standalone analogue to VOIP) boxes can support pulse dialling. As to whether they do on your particular router depends on the specifics of the implementation.
I don't think there's much beyond software needed to implement it, so it'll probably be down to whatever the box manufacturer put in the firmware.
J. P. Gilliver wrote:
Andy Burns wrote:
They're not going to sell copper voice lines (to new customers) after
this September.
Presumably they'll withdraw it from _existing_ customers not long after
that.
Do you mean external lines just to the house with access problems or
the whole grid? Either way that will be years of work for Openreach.
On 14/07/2023 11:19, Theo wrote:
J. P. Gilliver <G6JPG@255soft.uk> wrote:
In message <H9j*byalz@news.chiark.greenend.org.uk> at Thu, 13 Jul 2023
16:28:05, Theo <theom+news@chiark.greenend.org.uk> writes
[]
The VOIP converter is inside the router, there's a phone socket on[]
the back.
If you want to go to a third party VOIP service than that uses a
separate
box.
On the back of my latest router from PlusNet (a "hub 2"), there's a
taped-over socket (it says on the tape "digital voice customers only");
I presume that's it. I've just had a look under the tape, and it looks
like a normal BT type telephone socket (i. e. it's a different
connector
to the row of ethernet sockets).
That's the one. If you have an old router without a phone socket
your ISP
will send you a new one.
(_Will_ it support pulse dialling? I'll be surprised. Though presumably
it _does_ supply the same sort of power the exchange currently does,
for
corded 'phones with some electronics in. Though maybe not enough to
ring
a mechanical bell.)
Some ATA (standalone analogue to VOIP) boxes can support pulse
dialling. As
to whether they do on your particular router depends on the specifics
of the
implementation.
I don't think there's much beyond software needed to implement it, so
it'll
probably be down to whatever the box manufacturer put in the firmware.
My first FTTP option - Hyperoptic - has just gone live so I've been
looking at their offers. I'm waiting for email support to answer my
questions about their routers as telephone support didn't have a clue
and the online router manuals don't even mention phones.
On 14/07/2023 13:58, Robin wrote:
My first FTTP option - Hyperoptic - has just gone live so I've been
looking at their offers. I'm waiting for email support to answer my questions about their routers as telephone support didn't have a clue
and the online router manuals don't even mention phones.
If I were you, I'd be going with a third party VoIP supplier, and using
this as an ideal opportunity to port your phone number into them, thus decoupling forever your POTs from your broadband. You are then totally
free to use and manage your own router and VoIP adaptor
Mark Carver <mark.carver@invalid.invalid> wrote:
On 14/07/2023 13:58, Robin wrote:
My first FTTP option - Hyperoptic - has just gone live so I've beenIf I were you, I'd be going with a third party VoIP supplier, and using
looking at their offers. I'm waiting for email support to answer my
questions about their routers as telephone support didn't have a clue
and the online router manuals don't even mention phones.
this as an ideal opportunity to port your phone number into them, thus
decoupling forever your POTs from your broadband. You are then totally
free to use and manage your own router and VoIP adaptor
Yes, that's the way things are going. FTTP ISPs provide connectivity primarily, and voice is really an afterthought to smooth out the bumps for people who previously had ADSL/FTTC that came with a phone.
It feels a little like ISP provided email - the ISP would much rather you went to Gmail or Outlook rather than relying on their own email platform which has costs and no benefits for the ISP.
I expect sooner or later ISPs will start partnering with VOIP companies, offering to resell their VOIP services rather than running their own.
In your case I'd get the FTTP installed and working, and once done port out your number to a third party provider which will also cease your copper broadband. More details here: http://wiki.diyfaq.org.uk/index.php/Telephones,_analogue_to_digital_conversion
(although that's partly about 'digital voice' on copper lines, the comments about a SIP service are relevant)
Theo
On 14/07/2023 08:52, Andy Burns wrote:[]
Eh? if there's no FTTP, they'll have to fix the copper to keep FTTC >>running, just like today.
They will, but there are fewer and fewer Openreach staff with the
experience and training to diagnose and fix copper/analogue faults.
New Openreach recruits are only being trained for 'fibre skills' AIUI
Get off FTTC as soon as you can (in other words as soon as FTTP is
available for your home)
It feels a little like ISP provided email - the ISP would much rather you went to Gmail or Outlook rather than relying on their own email platform which has costs and no benefits for the ISP.
Mark Carver <mark.carver@invalid.invalid> wrote:
On 14/07/2023 13:58, Robin wrote:
My first FTTP option - Hyperoptic - has just gone live so I've beenIf I were you, I'd be going with a third party VoIP supplier, and using
looking at their offers. I'm waiting for email support to answer my
questions about their routers as telephone support didn't have a clue
and the online router manuals don't even mention phones.
this as an ideal opportunity to port your phone number into them, thus
decoupling forever your POTs from your broadband. You are then totally
free to use and manage your own router and VoIP adaptor
Yes, that's the way things are going. FTTP ISPs provide connectivity primarily, and voice is really an afterthought to smooth out the bumps for people who previously had ADSL/FTTC that came with a phone.
It feels a little like ISP provided email - the ISP would much rather you went to Gmail or Outlook rather than relying on their own email platform which has costs and no benefits for the ISP.
I expect sooner or later ISPs will start partnering with VOIP companies, offering to resell their VOIP services rather than running their own.
In your case I'd get the FTTP installed and working, and once done port out your number to a third party provider which will also cease your copper broadband. More details here: http://wiki.diyfaq.org.uk/index.php/Telephones,_analogue_to_digital_conversion
Stephen Wolstenholme wrote:
J. P. Gilliver wrote:
Andy Burns wrote:
They're not going to sell copper voice lines (to new customers) after
this September.
Presumably they'll withdraw it from _existing_ customers not long after
that.
Do you mean external lines just to the house with access problems or
the whole grid? Either way that will be years of work for Openreach.
Within 2 years, if a house still has copper, it will *only* be for
broadband, any form of phoneline will be VoIP over the broadband one way
or another.
On 14/07/2023 14:56, Theo wrote:
In your case I'd get the FTTP installed and working, and once done port out your number to a third party provider which will also cease your copper broadband. More details here: http://wiki.diyfaq.org.uk/index.php/Telephones,_analogue_to_digital_conversion
As you possibly recall I know about (and contributed a bit to) that
helpful page. But (unless I've missed a change) it doesn't cover my
precise circs - viz Virgin Media BB & phone. So I'm exploring taking the number to Hyperoptic and then on to separate VOIP..
Robin <rbw@outlook.com> wrote:
On 14/07/2023 14:56, Theo wrote:
In your case I'd get the FTTP installed and working, and once done port out >>> your number to a third party provider which will also cease your copper
broadband. More details here:
http://wiki.diyfaq.org.uk/index.php/Telephones,_analogue_to_digital_conversion
As you possibly recall I know about (and contributed a bit to) that
helpful page. But (unless I've missed a change) it doesn't cover my
precise circs - viz Virgin Media BB & phone. So I'm exploring taking the
number to Hyperoptic and then on to separate VOIP..
Yes, I was aware you were part of that thread. But I'm not sure why you'd want to take the number to Hyperoptic: surely you get the HO connection set up, keeping the Virgin until HO is all working. Then you transfer out the number to a separate VOIP provider.
In BT land that causes the broadband contract to be cancelled.
In Virgin land I'm not sure if it does, but either way you should be able to extract the number to your VOIP provider. Once extracted, cancel the Virgin contract.
There may be a way to finesse the process to reduce the time you're paying for two contracts, but I wouldn't cancel Virgin until FTTP is installed, because it's quite possible the crew turns up and says 'oh the tachyons are negatively polarised on your property[*], we can't do those, another crew will be back next week'. And you wouldn't want to be without service for an indeterminate length of time until they come back appropriately equipped.
In the case of transfers between firms with distinct physical infrastructure (Openreach to cable, cable to Openreach, Openreach to altnet FTTP) there's never been a one-day porting operation AFAIAA. In other words there's
always been a time where you either had both working concurrently (perhaps with a different number), or a gap where you had neither, but never a system where you wake up on one network and go to sleep with a new network live and the old one completely dead: there's always been overlap in that case.
In message <u8gk36$2gduf$1@dont-email.me> at Mon, 10 Jul 2023 10:47:17,
Brian Gaff <brian1gaff@gmail.com> writes
Is this not the same logic that assumes everyone has a smart phone andThe word you slipped in - unintentionally, I'm sure - is "give".
can use it? I despair when I note that tickets can only be bought via >>eventbrite and shown on the screen of your phone when attending.
Somebody needs to force the powers that be to acknowledge there are >>citizens who do not have smart anythings or the internet.. Or is the
whole reason for phasing out land lines via copper a ploy to give
everyone broadband whether they want it or not?
How broad is your band?
Brian
*IF* the solution _is_ to actually _give_ everyone broadband - i. e.
provide it at no more than the line rental charge - then I'd accept it*,
but I very much doubt either the government or the ISPs have any
intention of doing away with that revenue stream. I've thought for some
time that the splitting of the charge into line rental and broadband is increasingly arbitrary (and leads to many dishonest marketing
practices), but without legislation - from a government that knows what
it's doing, so that's a pipedream - it won't happen.
*Yes, even universal broadband would far from solve everything, but I'd withdraw a lot of my objections.
Andy Burns wrote:
Within 2 years, if a house still has copper, it will only be for
broadband, any form of phoneline will be VoIP over the broadband
one way or another.
FTAOD that's true even if the copper is coax from Virgin Media.
... before the politicianscome to their senses and realise that electric
cars are actually making the environmental prolems worse.
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