• "Re-arrange these letters to make a well-known word..."

    From NY@21:1/5 to All on Sun Jun 25 20:54:15 2023
    https://www.rd.com/article/radio-stations-k-w/ is an interesting article
    about why US radio station names always begin with K or W. But the sentence that made me chuckle was "The United States was given the letters W, K, N,
    and A." Was that a random allocation, or was the committee pulling the US's plonker with that allocation of letters?

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  • From Theo@21:1/5 to me@privacy.invalid on Sun Jun 25 23:20:44 2023
    NY <me@privacy.invalid> wrote:
    https://www.rd.com/article/radio-stations-k-w/ is an interesting article about why US radio station names always begin with K or W. But the
    sentence that made me chuckle was "The United States was given the letters
    W, K, N, and A." Was that a random allocation, or was the committee
    pulling the US's plonker with that allocation of letters?

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Maritime_call_sign

    " In the absence of international standards, early transmitters constructed after Guglielmo Marconi's first transatlantic message in 1901 were issued arbitrary two-letter calls by radio companies, alone or later preceded by a one-letter company identifier. These mimicked an earlier railroad telegraph convention where short, two-letter identifiers served as Morse code abbreviations to denote the various individual stations on the line (for instance, AX could represent Halifax). "N" and two letters would identify
    U.S. Navy; "M" and two letters would be a Marconi station."

    (this is why UK radio amateurs can today get an 'M' callsign, because that
    was originally Marconi, a British company)

    "United States merchant vessels are given call signs beginning with the
    letters "W" or "K" while U.S. naval ships are assigned call signs beginning with "N""

    So N = Navy. Then:

    https://earlyradiohistory.us/recap.htm

    "The authority to assign radio call letters to ships, which Chamberlain
    claimed under the July 5, 1884 act, did not include land stations. (At this time the U.S. government had not yet started licencing radio transmitters). The date of the changeover to the new three-letter radio calls wasn't stated
    in the 1911 annual report, however, an October 25, 1912 General Letter from
    the Department of Commerce and Labor later referred to "the call letters assigned to American ship stations on July 1, 1912, by the Bureau of Navigation". (U.S. merchant ships were still using their old two-letter
    calls according to the January 1, 1912 edition of the Navy's Wireless
    Telegraph Stations of the World, but the new three-letter calls are listed
    in the radio call letter list in the June 30, 1912 edition of the Annual
    List of the Merchant Vessels of the United States, with K calls assigned to ships on the "Atlantic and Gulf Coasts", and W calls going to the "Pacific Coast" vessels.) In many cases, all that was done was to add a K or W in
    front of the ship's original two-letter call -- see 1911-1913 Ship Callsign Comparison Chart for more details. I don't know why K and W were chosen for the initial letters, or why the Bureau thought it necessary to split the assignments into two geographic groups -- they had not done anything similar with the visual signal letters. It is possible that W stood for "west", but that is pure speculation on my part.

    These new three-letter K and W ship radio calls were assigned just prior to
    the signing of the 1912 London International Radiotelegraphic Convention. A note appearing with the June 30, 1912 lists stated that "Radio call letters
    of American vessels on the Atlantic and Gulf in the K series are subject to revision under international agreement". The modification that was reported shortly after the end of the London Convention was that, although all
    initial N and W callsigns were assigned to the U.S., only calls from KD
    through KZ were included in the U.S. allocation, so the U.S. ships that
    had been assigned KA- and KC- calls in the June 30, 1912 list had to be
    issued new ones -- see 1911-1913 Ship Callsign Comparison Chart for more details.

    Then, with the passage of the Radio Act of 1912, the Bureau of Navigation
    was assigned the additional responsibility of licencing both ship and land radio stations, so it now also controlled call letter assignments for land stations, which had also traditionally used two-letter calls. And for commercial land stations the Bureau adopted the opposite policy from what it used for ship stations, i.e. land stations were issued three-letter K calls
    in the west and W in the east. In many cases, the process again consisted
    of adding a K or W in front of the station's original two-letter call, e.g.
    HA at Cape Hatteras, North Carolina became WHA, GO in Chicago, Illinois
    became WGO, and PH in San Francisco, California became KPH. And some land stations which already had three-letter calls just had their initial letter changed to meet the new international standard, e.g. MCC in South
    Wellfleet, Massachusetts became WCC. (For more information on the initial
    land station call letter assignments, see the July 1, 1913 issue of Radio Stations of the United States.)

    (NOTE: A May 9, 1913 Commerce Department publication, Radio Call Letters, stated that, like ship stations, land stations would get W calls in the west and K in the east. The identical wording appears in the July 1, 1913 issue
    of Radio Stations of the United States, which was the first official station list issued after the U.S. began licencing stations. However, according to the station lists appearing in the latter publication, it is clear that the commercial land stations were actually being issued calls in the opposite pattern, i.e. K in the west and W in the east. And, beginning with the
    July 1, 1914 edition of Radio Stations of the United States, the wording was changed to reflect the correct pattern for land stations.) "


    So it could be that W=west coast of the US, and K=east coast, but E was
    already taken by Spain. KA to KC was taken by Germany, so the US got KD to
    KZ until 1927 when they got the rest.

    Since the US already had N and W, maybe the second half of K was all that
    was left? The Great Powers got at least one whole letter each, and the
    other countries were fighting over the scraps?

    Theo

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  • From MB@21:1/5 to All on Mon Jun 26 00:00:36 2023
    On 25/06/2023 23:43, NY wrote:
    How is it that the UK doesn't have to name all its stations beginning with M or one of the other UK letters? Was that due to the power of Reith and the BBC? And had the concept of using standard initial letters died out by the time other UK stations (ILR) started in the 1960s?


    There are a lot of callsigns that are not normally seen.

    Pre AIRWAVE all emergency services had callsigns but they were usually shortened and only the last couple of letters were used normally.

    You will often hear a vessel using their callsign as well as the name of
    the vessel.


    YEOMAN BONTRUP
    IMO: 8912297
    Callsign: C6JQ9
    MMSI: 308918000 [BS]

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  • From NY@21:1/5 to Theo on Sun Jun 25 23:43:17 2023
    "Theo" <theom+news@chiark.greenend.org.uk> wrote in message news:Khn*V9Ijz@news.chiark.greenend.org.uk...
    NY <me@privacy.invalid> wrote:
    https://www.rd.com/article/radio-stations-k-w/ is an interesting article
    about why US radio station names always begin with K or W. But the
    sentence that made me chuckle was "The United States was given the
    letters
    W, K, N, and A." Was that a random allocation, or was the committee
    pulling the US's plonker with that allocation of letters?

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Maritime_call_sign https://earlyradiohistory.us/recap.htm

    [snip interesting explanation]

    So it was probably pure chance that the US's letters could be rearranged to spell WANK ;-)


    How is it that the UK doesn't have to name all its stations beginning with M
    or one of the other UK letters? Was that due to the power of Reith and the
    BBC? And had the concept of using standard initial letters died out by the
    time other UK stations (ILR) started in the 1960s?

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  • From NY@21:1/5 to All on Mon Jun 26 16:37:07 2023
    On 26/06/2023 00:00, MB wrote:
    On 25/06/2023 23:43, NY wrote:
    How is it that the UK doesn't have to name all its stations beginning
    with M
    or one of the other UK letters? Was that due to the power of Reith and
    the
    BBC? And had the concept of using standard initial letters died out by
    the
    time other UK stations (ILR) started in the 1960s?


    There are a lot of callsigns that are not normally seen.


    So do all the UK broadcast radio stations have callsigns which are not
    used publicly? If so, why are the rules different for UK and US
    broadcast radio? Do US stations not have a "friendly name" which is used
    in station IDs and jingles, unlike in the UK where it is only the
    friendly name which is used, even if there is an "invisible" callsign as
    well?

    I'm confining my question to broadcast radio for reception by the
    public, as opposed to point-to-point private radio as used by the
    various emergency services or for ship-shore / aircraft-tower
    communications.

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  • From Theo@21:1/5 to me@privacy.net on Mon Jun 26 21:00:04 2023
    NY <me@privacy.net> wrote:
    So do all the UK broadcast radio stations have callsigns which are not
    used publicly? If so, why are the rules different for UK and US
    broadcast radio? Do US stations not have a "friendly name" which is used
    in station IDs and jingles, unlike in the UK where it is only the
    friendly name which is used, even if there is an "invisible" callsign as well?

    I'm confining my question to broadcast radio for reception by the
    public, as opposed to point-to-point private radio as used by the
    various emergency services or for ship-shore / aircraft-tower
    communications.

    Morse stations needed a letter callsign because of the longwindedness of the medium - the message:

    CQD CQD CQD CQD CQD CQD DE MGY MGY MGY MGY MGY MGY POSITION 41.44 N 50.24 W

    would not have been as effective if it had to spell out 'RMS Titanic'
    instead of 'MGY'.

    I'm guessing the requirement for a broadcast audio station to have a
    callsign and mention it on-air was dropped by one of the later International Radiotelegraphic Conventions, since it wasn't needed as it was for Morse,
    and for whatever reason that practice continued in the US.

    The BBC was 2LO for a time, wikipedia says until 1930. '2' is a UK callsign prefix as well as 'G' and 'M'.

    Theo

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  • From charles@21:1/5 to theom+news@chiark.greenend.org.uk on Mon Jun 26 20:45:03 2023
    In article <Khn*rUNjz@news.chiark.greenend.org.uk>, Theo <theom+news@chiark.greenend.org.uk> wrote:
    NY <me@privacy.net> wrote:
    So do all the UK broadcast radio stations have callsigns which are not
    used publicly? If so, why are the rules different for UK and US
    broadcast radio? Do US stations not have a "friendly name" which is
    used in station IDs and jingles, unlike in the UK where it is only the friendly name which is used, even if there is an "invisible" callsign
    as well?

    I'm confining my question to broadcast radio for reception by the
    public, as opposed to point-to-point private radio as used by the
    various emergency services or for ship-shore / aircraft-tower communications.

    Morse stations needed a letter callsign because of the longwindedness of
    the medium - the message:

    CQD CQD CQD CQD CQD CQD DE MGY MGY MGY MGY MGY MGY POSITION 41.44 N 50.24
    W

    would not have been as effective if it had to spell out 'RMS Titanic'
    instead of 'MGY'.

    I'm guessing the requirement for a broadcast audio station to have a
    callsign and mention it on-air was dropped by one of the later
    International Radiotelegraphic Conventions, since it wasn't needed as it
    was for Morse, and for whatever reason that practice continued in the US.

    The BBC was 2LO for a time, wikipedia says until 1930. '2' is a UK
    callsign prefix as well as 'G' and 'M'.

    2LO was only the London transmitter, There were also: 2ZY - Manchester; 5IT
    - Birmingham; and quite a few others including 5XX at Daventry.

    --
    from KT24 in Surrey, England - sent from my RISC OS 4té
    "I'd rather die of exhaustion than die of boredom" Thomas Carlyle

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  • From J. P. Gilliver@21:1/5 to charles on Tue Jun 27 00:28:41 2023
    In message <5ababdab1acharles@candehope.me.uk> at Mon, 26 Jun 2023
    20:45:03, charles <charles@candehope.me.uk> writes
    In article <Khn*rUNjz@news.chiark.greenend.org.uk>, Theo ><theom+news@chiark.greenend.org.uk> wrote:
    NY <me@privacy.net> wrote:
    So do all the UK broadcast radio stations have callsigns which are not
    used publicly? If so, why are the rules different for UK and US
    broadcast radio? Do US stations not have a "friendly name" which is
    used in station IDs and jingles, unlike in the UK where it is only the
    friendly name which is used, even if there is an "invisible" callsign
    as well?

    I'm confining my question to broadcast radio for reception by the
    public, as opposed to point-to-point private radio as used by the
    various emergency services or for ship-shore / aircraft-tower
    communications.

    Morse stations needed a letter callsign because of the longwindedness of
    the medium - the message:

    CQD CQD CQD CQD CQD CQD DE MGY MGY MGY MGY MGY MGY POSITION 41.44 N 50.24
    W

    would not have been as effective if it had to spell out 'RMS Titanic'
    instead of 'MGY'.

    I'm guessing the requirement for a broadcast audio station to have a
    callsign and mention it on-air was dropped by one of the later
    International Radiotelegraphic Conventions, since it wasn't needed as it
    was for Morse, and for whatever reason that practice continued in the US.

    The BBC was 2LO for a time, wikipedia says until 1930. '2' is a UK
    callsign prefix as well as 'G' and 'M'.

    2LO was only the London transmitter, There were also: 2ZY - Manchester; 5IT
    - Birmingham; and quite a few others including 5XX at Daventry.

    2MT from Marconi's wireless telegraph works in Chelmsford (or the nearby Writtle, "a long low hut full of long low people").

    I thought the G (and variants) was _added_, when technology improved
    such that stations with the same callsign from different countries could
    hear each other and were confusable. Though I don't know if that only
    applied to amateurs.
    --
    J. P. Gilliver. UMRA: 1960/<1985 MB++G()AL-IS-Ch++(p)Ar@T+H+Sh0!:`)DNAf

    She looked like the kind of girl who was poured into her clothes and forgot to say when - Wodehouse

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  • From MB@21:1/5 to Theo on Tue Jun 27 08:43:18 2023
    On 26/06/2023 21:00, Theo wrote:
    The BBC was 2LO for a time, wikipedia says until 1930. '2' is a UK callsign prefix as well as 'G' and 'M'.


    I had a look in Pawley but can't see any mention of callsigns being dropped.


    Liverpool Daily Post - Monday 10 March 1930

    NEW WIRELESS SCHEME STARTS
    First Alternative Programmes Radiated
    Millions listeners provided with alternative wireless programmes
    yesterday under the new policy of the BBC The first part of the scheme
    which will ultimately give this country five high-power regional
    stations each operating on wave-lengths came into being almost unostentatiously.
    In the middle of Bach cantata sent out on the National Programme the
    London regional transmitters started up with a military concert. From
    then onwards except for two items common to both wave-lengths contrasted programmes were radiated.
    All the familiar call-signs 2LO 5GB 5XX have gone. There is a National Programme, a London Regional Station and a Midland Regional Station.

    New Northern Station.
    Not until 1932 will the entire regional scheme be in operation. The
    Northern Regional Station is now being built at ....

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  • From charles@21:1/5 to MB@nospam.net on Tue Jun 27 09:00:02 2023
    In article <u7e3un$1b9v0$1@dont-email.me>, MB <MB@nospam.net> wrote:
    On 26/06/2023 21:00, Theo wrote:
    The BBC was 2LO for a time, wikipedia says until 1930. '2' is a UK callsign prefix as well as 'G' and 'M'.


    I had a look in Pawley but can't see any mention of callsigns being
    dropped.

    Nor could I.

    [Snip]

    --
    from KT24 in Surrey, England - sent from my RISC OS 4té
    "I'd rather die of exhaustion than die of boredom" Thomas Carlyle

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  • From Brian Gaff@21:1/5 to me@privacy.invalid on Tue Jun 27 13:09:28 2023
    I have wondered this before. I don't ever recall anyone owning up.
    Brian

    --
    Brian Gaff - briang1@blueyonder.co.uk

    Blind user, so no pictures please!

    This document should only be read by those persons for whom Paranoia is
    normal
    and its contents are probably boring and confusing. If you receive this
    e-Mail
    message in error, do not notify the sender immediately, instead, print it
    out and make
    paper animals out of it. As the rest of this disclaimer is totally incomprehensible, we have not bothered to attach it.
    "NY" <me@privacy.invalid> wrote in message
    news:u7a60i$j1o7$1@dont-email.me...
    https://www.rd.com/article/radio-stations-k-w/ is an interesting article about why US radio station names always begin with K or W. But the
    sentence that made me chuckle was "The United States was given the letters
    W, K, N, and A." Was that a random allocation, or was the committee
    pulling the US's plonker with that allocation of letters?

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  • From MB@21:1/5 to Liz Tuddenham on Wed Jun 28 09:55:08 2023
    On 28/06/2023 09:47, Liz Tuddenham wrote:
    What did they operate on before that?



    Pawley can be downloaded here, many tables listing BBC transmitters at different dates.

    https://www.bbceng.info/Books/books.htm

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  • From Liz Tuddenham@21:1/5 to MB@nospam.net on Wed Jun 28 09:47:16 2023
    MB <MB@nospam.net> wrote:

    [...]
    " five high-power regional
    stations each operating on wave-lengths "

    What did they operate on before that?



    --
    ~ Liz Tuddenham ~
    (Remove the ".invalid"s and add ".co.uk" to reply)
    www.poppyrecords.co.uk

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  • From J. P. Gilliver@21:1/5 to MB@nospam.net on Wed Jun 28 11:33:43 2023
    In message <u7gshc$1nn61$1@dont-email.me> at Wed, 28 Jun 2023 09:55:08,
    MB <MB@nospam.net> writes
    On 28/06/2023 09:47, Liz Tuddenham wrote:
    What did they operate on before that?



    Pawley can be downloaded here, many tables listing BBC transmitters at >different dates.

    https://www.bbceng.info/Books/books.htm


    Thanks for that page: lots of nice documents as well as Pawley!
    Bookmarked.

    I was going to say nice to see that BBC engineering still exists, but
    looking at https://www.bbceng.info/, it's obviously a private
    enthusiasts site )-:. [Not that that isn't great, but it's sad that it's
    not BBC. (And I bet nowhere on the BBC site mentions/links-to it.)]
    --
    J. P. Gilliver. UMRA: 1960/<1985 MB++G()AL-IS-Ch++(p)Ar@T+H+Sh0!:`)DNAf

    Try to tell me to watch something because it's brilliant and everyone says so and therefore I will love it, too, and you lose me for ever.
    - Alison Graham, RT 2016/2/6-12

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  • From Adrian Caspersz@21:1/5 to charles on Wed Jun 28 12:14:23 2023
    On 28/06/2023 12:00, charles wrote:
    In article <X1UzlvnHyAnkFwTy@255soft.uk>,
    J. P. Gilliver <G6JPG@255soft.uk> wrote:

    I was going to say nice to see that BBC engineering still exists, but
    looking at https://www.bbceng.info/, it's obviously a private
    enthusiasts site )-:. [Not that that isn't great, but it's sad that it's
    not BBC. (And I bet nowhere on the BBC site mentions/links-to it.)]

    It's run by those that used to work there. The present BBC doesn't believe
    in engineers.


    There are some; locked in a lab, don't see daylight, types.

    https://www.bbc.co.uk/rd/projects

    --
    Adrian C

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  • From charles@21:1/5 to J. P. Gilliver on Wed Jun 28 11:00:02 2023
    In article <X1UzlvnHyAnkFwTy@255soft.uk>,
    J. P. Gilliver <G6JPG@255soft.uk> wrote:
    In message <u7gshc$1nn61$1@dont-email.me> at Wed, 28 Jun 2023 09:55:08,
    MB <MB@nospam.net> writes
    On 28/06/2023 09:47, Liz Tuddenham wrote:
    What did they operate on before that?



    Pawley can be downloaded here, many tables listing BBC transmitters at >different dates.

    https://www.bbceng.info/Books/books.htm


    Thanks for that page: lots of nice documents as well as Pawley!
    Bookmarked.

    I was going to say nice to see that BBC engineering still exists, but
    looking at https://www.bbceng.info/, it's obviously a private
    enthusiasts site )-:. [Not that that isn't great, but it's sad that it's
    not BBC. (And I bet nowhere on the BBC site mentions/links-to it.)]

    It's run by those that used to work there. The present BBC doesn't believe
    in engineers.

    --
    from KT24 in Surrey, England - sent from my RISC OS 4té
    "I'd rather die of exhaustion than die of boredom" Thomas Carlyle

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  • From J. P. Gilliver@21:1/5 to Adrian Caspersz on Wed Jun 28 12:23:54 2023
    In message <kg2j0fF2ufcU4@mid.individual.net> at Wed, 28 Jun 2023
    12:14:23, Adrian Caspersz <email@here.invalid> writes
    On 28/06/2023 12:00, charles wrote:
    In article <X1UzlvnHyAnkFwTy@255soft.uk>,
    J. P. Gilliver <G6JPG@255soft.uk> wrote:

    I was going to say nice to see that BBC engineering still exists, but
    looking at https://www.bbceng.info/, it's obviously a private
    enthusiasts site )-:. [Not that that isn't great, but it's sad that it's >>> not BBC. (And I bet nowhere on the BBC site mentions/links-to it.)]
    It's run by those that used to work there. The present BBC doesn't >>believe
    in engineers.


    There are some; locked in a lab, don't see daylight, types.

    (It was ever so, but at least they used to be wheeled out occasionally.
    Much less so now. Mustn't frighten the public [with facts].)

    https://www.bbc.co.uk/rd/projects

    Thanks (I also tried it without the projects on the end); bookmarked, I
    still bet there are few links to it from the rest of the website though.
    --
    J. P. Gilliver. UMRA: 1960/<1985 MB++G()AL-IS-Ch++(p)Ar@T+H+Sh0!:`)DNAf

    Anybody who thinks there can be unlimited growth in a static, limited environment, is either mad or an economist. - Sir David Attenborough, in
    Radio Times 10-16 November 2012

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  • From Sn!pe@21:1/5 to MB@nospam.net on Sat Jul 15 16:10:11 2023
    MB <MB@nospam.net> wrote:

    [...]
    There are a lot of callsigns that are not normally seen.

    Pre AIRWAVE all emergency services had callsigns but they were usually shortened and only the last couple of letters were used normally.
    [...]

    "BD to Zed Victor One"

    --
    ^Ï^. – Sn!pe – <https://youtu.be/_kqytf31a8E>

    My pet rock Gordon just is.

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  • From Brian@21:1/5 to snipeco.2@gmail.com on Sun Jul 16 11:08:05 2023
    On Sat, 15 Jul 2023 16:10:11 +0100, snipeco.2@gmail.com (Sn!pe) wrote:

    <snip>

    "BD to Zed Victor One"

    M2BD = Lancashire Constabulary, Billinge

    https://www.pmrconversion.info/POLICE/CALLSIGN.html

    --

    Brian

    Beware the spamtrap by Kubrick.

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  • From MB@21:1/5 to All on Sun Jul 16 20:10:59 2023
    On 15/07/2023 16:10, Sn!pe wrote:
    "BD to Zed Victor One"

    I think the callsign was actually M2BD but they were always shortened.

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  • From Woody@21:1/5 to All on Mon Jul 17 07:53:45 2023
    On Sun 16/07/2023 20:10, MB wrote:
    On 15/07/2023 16:10, Sn!pe wrote:
    "BD to Zed Victor One"

    I think the callsign was actually M2BD but they were always shortened.



    No, all Police and Fire controls were M2 prefix so they got truncated to
    save time. M, alongside G, was allocated (after WWII?) as identity
    letters for the UK.

    What is more one of the the last two letters showed which HO depot
    maintained that force, so BD meant Billinge (near Wigan), NA
    (Derbyshire) meant Nottingham, and XF was Kippax (Leeds) etc.

    Technically the M2 part of the callsign is still in place, so when radio amateur callsigns started using M as the first letter, e.g. M0, M3, M7
    etc, they could not and still do not use M2.

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  • From J. P. Gilliver@21:1/5 to Woody on Mon Jul 17 13:27:57 2023
    In message <u92ohp$131t5$1@dont-email.me> at Mon, 17 Jul 2023 07:53:45,
    Woody <harrogate3@ntlworld.com> writes
    On Sun 16/07/2023 20:10, MB wrote:
    On 15/07/2023 16:10, Sn!pe wrote:
    "BD to Zed Victor One"
    I think the callsign was actually M2BD but they were always
    shortened.


    No, all Police and Fire controls were M2 prefix so they got truncated
    to save time. M, alongside G, was allocated (after WWII?) as identity
    letters for the UK.

    What is more one of the the last two letters showed which HO depot
    maintained that force, so BD meant Billinge (near Wigan), NA
    (Derbyshire) meant Nottingham, and XF was Kippax (Leeds) etc.

    Technically the M2 part of the callsign is still in place, so when
    radio amateur callsigns started using M as the first letter, e.g. M0,
    M3, M7 etc, they could not and still do not use M2.

    Is some similar reason why there were never (AFAICR) G1 amateurs?
    --
    J. P. Gilliver. UMRA: 1960/<1985 MB++G()AL-IS-Ch++(p)Ar@T+H+Sh0!:`)DNAf

    Paxman, the man who has never used one sneer when three would do
    - Elizabeth Day, RT 2015/5/2-8

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  • From MB@21:1/5 to Woody on Sat Jul 22 16:44:35 2023
    On 17/07/2023 07:53, Woody wrote:
    No, all Police and Fire controls were M2 prefix so they got truncated to
    save time. M, alongside G, was allocated (after WWII?) as identity
    letters for the UK.



    Might be more here.


    https://www.dtels.org/index.html

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