• BBC News: Channel 4 subtitles and other services not likely to return u

    From MB@21:1/5 to All on Tue Oct 19 09:48:26 2021
    Channel 4 subtitles and other services not likely to return until
    mid-November

    https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/entertainment-arts-58965380

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  • From Mark Carver@21:1/5 to All on Tue Oct 19 09:56:07 2021
    On 19/10/2021 09:48, MB wrote:
    Channel 4 subtitles and other services not likely to return until mid-November

    https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/entertainment-arts-58965380

    Undiluted version from C4 themselves

    https://www.channel4.com/press/news/whats-happened-access-services-channel-4

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  • From Tweed@21:1/5 to me@privacy.invalid on Tue Oct 19 09:50:46 2021
    NY <me@privacy.invalid> wrote:
    "Mark Carver" <mark.carver@invalid.invalid> wrote in message news:it7fh7Fp9heU1@mid.individual.net...
    On 19/10/2021 09:48, MB wrote:
    Channel 4 subtitles and other services not likely to return until
    mid-November

    https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/entertainment-arts-58965380

    Undiluted version from C4 themselves

    https://www.channel4.com/press/news/whats-happened-access-services-channel-4

    The morals of this story are twofold:

    - the fire-suppression system was not fit for purpose if it damaged all the equipment that it was trying to protect: that is the worse of the two sins - it is beyond belief that a non-water-based fire-suppression system should damage equipment and the company which specified/installed it should hang their heads in shame

    - the disaster-recovery backup was inadequate if it did not preserve the subtitle and AD streams that accompany the programmes: more periodic testing needed once a new system is developed

    I wonder what precautions playout centres will be taking to prevent these problems occurring again.

    I presume the original programme makers would generate the AD and subtitles, so I wonder whether they have copies that can be used to regenerate the missing data.


    Has there been any word yet as to *why* the fire-suppression system triggered? Was there actually a fire or was it a false-positive tiggering?



    Well you are back to the old problem of writing adequate requirements. The
    fire suppression system probably met a written requirement to put a fire
    out. Doubtless that requirement called upon the system to meet some sort of national/international standard. I bet that standard never even considered sonic shockwaves damaging hard disks. Engineering by paperwork rather than
    by experience.

    According to the BBC report the fire service found no fire.

    I suspect a lot of data centres are reviewing their fire suppression
    systems right now…..

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  • From NY@21:1/5 to Mark Carver on Tue Oct 19 10:24:43 2021
    "Mark Carver" <mark.carver@invalid.invalid> wrote in message news:it7fh7Fp9heU1@mid.individual.net...
    On 19/10/2021 09:48, MB wrote:
    Channel 4 subtitles and other services not likely to return until
    mid-November

    https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/entertainment-arts-58965380

    Undiluted version from C4 themselves

    https://www.channel4.com/press/news/whats-happened-access-services-channel-4

    The morals of this story are twofold:

    - the fire-suppression system was not fit for purpose if it damaged all the equipment that it was trying to protect: that is the worse of the two sins -
    it is beyond belief that a non-water-based fire-suppression system should damage equipment and the company which specified/installed it should hang
    their heads in shame

    - the disaster-recovery backup was inadequate if it did not preserve the subtitle and AD streams that accompany the programmes: more periodic testing needed once a new system is developed

    I wonder what precautions playout centres will be taking to prevent these problems occurring again.

    I presume the original programme makers would generate the AD and subtitles,
    so I wonder whether they have copies that can be used to regenerate the
    missing data.


    Has there been any word yet as to *why* the fire-suppression system
    triggered? Was there actually a fire or was it a false-positive tiggering?

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  • From Mark Carver@21:1/5 to Tweed on Tue Oct 19 11:25:39 2021
    On 19/10/2021 10:50, Tweed wrote:

    Well you are back to the old problem of writing adequate requirements. The fire suppression system probably met a written requirement to put a fire
    out. Doubtless that requirement called upon the system to meet some sort of national/international standard. I bet that standard never even considered sonic shockwaves damaging hard disks. Engineering by paperwork rather than
    by experience.

    According to the BBC report the fire service found no fire.

    It could well have been something that started smouldering, after the
    gas discharge it would have been extinguished, with no external visible
    sign of trauma.
    Someone has, or has yet to, discover the dead bit of kit, take the lid
    off, and find the melted remains of an electrolytic (or similar)

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  • From Richard Tobin@21:1/5 to MB@nospam.net on Tue Oct 19 11:03:25 2021
    In article <skm0mu$3l0$1@dont-email.me>, MB <MB@nospam.net> wrote:

    Channel 4 subtitles and other services not likely to return until >mid-November

    https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/entertainment-arts-58965380

    How hard can it be? Surely it could be done with any reaonable
    computer hardware, if rather less conveniently.

    -- Richard

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  • From Roderick Stewart@21:1/5 to mark.carver@invalid.invalid on Tue Oct 19 13:19:11 2021
    On Tue, 19 Oct 2021 09:56:07 +0100, Mark Carver
    <mark.carver@invalid.invalid> wrote:

    On 19/10/2021 09:48, MB wrote:
    Channel 4 subtitles and other services not likely to return until
    mid-November

    https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/entertainment-arts-58965380

    Undiluted version from C4 themselves

    https://www.channel4.com/press/news/whats-happened-access-services-channel-4

    It looks as though they should have had a backup system for their
    backup system.

    Rod.

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  • From J. P. Gilliver (John)@21:1/5 to Tweed on Tue Oct 19 13:17:15 2021
    On Tue, 19 Oct 2021 at 09:50:46, Tweed <usenet.tweed@gmail.com> wrote
    (my responses usually follow points raised):
    NY <me@privacy.invalid> wrote:
    []
    The morals of this story are twofold:

    - the fire-suppression system was not fit for purpose if it damaged all the >> equipment that it was trying to protect: that is the worse of the two sins - >> it is beyond belief that a non-water-based fire-suppression system should
    damage equipment and the company which specified/installed it should hang
    their heads in shame

    Agreed.

    - the disaster-recovery backup was inadequate if it did not preserve the
    subtitle and AD streams that accompany the programmes: more periodic testing >> needed once a new system is developed

    Agreed.

    Another question that certainly should be being asked - I'm asking it,
    for a start! - is how long the companies are to be _allowed_ to not meet
    their requirements to provide subtitles and AD for whatever proportion
    of their programming is specified? I can see that it is reasonable to
    permit a _short_ break in such provision "due to unforeseen
    circumstances", but there must be something in place to ensure the
    provider does not gain any financial advantage (that's the only, or at
    least main, thing they understand) from "dragging their feet" in
    restoring such provisions - with appropriate fine (of more than their
    saving) if they do.
    []
    I presume the original programme makers would generate the AD and subtitles, >> so I wonder whether they have copies that can be used to regenerate the
    missing data.

    I'm not sure they do - certainly for AD; most American material I hear
    AD for has a very British accent providing the AD, which I find quite
    amusing. (I don't need AD myself, but I usually have it on - [a] I find
    it useful in that it allows me to "watch" programmes while doing other
    things {such as usenet!}, and [b] I have blind friends who _do_ use it,
    and I like to hear what they would hear if they watched the same
    programmes.)

    Has there been any word yet as to *why* the fire-suppression system
    triggered? Was there actually a fire or was it a false-positive tiggering? >>
    (Good question. [And I hope it _is_ answered - properly, I mean, not
    just "it was a software glitch" or similar no-answer.)


    Well you are back to the old problem of writing adequate requirements. The >fire suppression system probably met a written requirement to put a fire
    out. Doubtless that requirement called upon the system to meet some sort of >national/international standard. I bet that standard never even considered >sonic shockwaves damaging hard disks. Engineering by paperwork rather than
    by experience.

    Arguably, you need both. (Standards can mention things experience
    _doesn't_ cover, as well as vice versa.)
    []
    --
    J. P. Gilliver. UMRA: 1960/<1985 MB++G()AL-IS-Ch++(p)Ar@T+H+Sh0!:`)DNAf

    A biochemist walks into a student bar and says to the barman: "I'd like a pint of adenosine triphosphate, please." "Certainly," says the barman, "that'll be ATP." (Quoted in) The Independent, 2013-7-13

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  • From MB@21:1/5 to All on Tue Oct 19 17:14:04 2021
    On 19/10/2021 13:17, J. P. Gilliver (John) wrote:
    Another question that certainly should be being asked - I'm asking it,
    for a start! - is how long the companies are to be_allowed_ to not meet their requirements to provide subtitles and AD for whatever proportion
    of their programming is specified?

    I am sure everyone will be trying to cover themselves, sure to be a
    question from the Minister or a Commons committee.

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  • From Mark Carver@21:1/5 to Dickie mint on Wed Oct 20 12:51:14 2021
    On 20/10/2021 12:41, Dickie mint wrote:
    In my day (retired in 2004) of BBC DR being Pebble Mill we certainly
    never thought of restoring ST & AD.

    And sitting on the BBC DR committee I can't remember them being
    thought off.  It was a case of assuming something like an evacuation
    of TVC or latterly WC.  Only needed for a few hours.

    Maybe that thinking has lasted?  DR for occupations/bomb threats etc?

    Well the most obvious scenario for requiring DR for an extended period,
    and therefore all of the 'access' services, is the primary facility (in
    your example BBC TV Centre) burning to the ground ?

    The likelihood of that hasn't really ever changed, and in principle that
    has happened to Red Bee (except the fire prevention system destroyed the
    kit, rather than a fire !)

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  • From Tweed@21:1/5 to Mark Carver on Wed Oct 20 12:00:20 2021
    Mark Carver <mark.carver@invalid.invalid> wrote:
    On 20/10/2021 12:41, Dickie mint wrote:
    In my day (retired in 2004) of BBC DR being Pebble Mill we certainly
    never thought of restoring ST & AD.

    And sitting on the BBC DR committee I can't remember them being
    thought off.  It was a case of assuming something like an evacuation
    of TVC or latterly WC.  Only needed for a few hours.

    Maybe that thinking has lasted?  DR for occupations/bomb threats etc?

    Well the most obvious scenario for requiring DR for an extended period,
    and therefore all of the 'access' services, is the primary facility (in
    your example BBC TV Centre) burning to the ground ?

    The likelihood of that hasn't really ever changed, and in principle that
    has happened to Red Bee (except the fire prevention system destroyed the
    kit, rather than a fire !)


    Seems everybody is learning lessons in resilience right now. The upside, is whenever a project manager demands an estimate for when something might be
    done I can now genuinely shrug my shoulders and say I haven’t a clue and
    this is now recognised as an unchallengeable position. It’s even filtering through to the counters of beans.

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  • From Dickie mint@21:1/5 to All on Wed Oct 20 12:41:52 2021
    In my day (retired in 2004) of BBC DR being Pebble Mill we certainly
    never thought of restoring ST & AD.

    And sitting on the BBC DR committee I can't remember them being thought
    off. It was a case of assuming something like an evacuation of TVC or
    latterly WC. Only needed for a few hours.

    Maybe that thinking has lasted? DR for occupations/bomb threats etc?

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
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  • From Mark Carver@21:1/5 to Tweed on Wed Oct 20 13:08:44 2021
    On 20/10/2021 13:00, Tweed wrote:

    Seems everybody is learning lessons in resilience right now.
    Regrettably it took a while, but it eventually became apparent that you
    really shouldn't use square corners on the windows of jet planes

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  • From NY@21:1/5 to Tweed on Wed Oct 20 13:35:51 2021
    "Tweed" <usenet.tweed@gmail.com> wrote in message news:skp0ck$hg3$1@dont-email.me...
    Seems everybody is learning lessons in resilience right now. The upside,
    is
    whenever a project manager demands an estimate for when something might be done I can now genuinely shrug my shoulders and say I haven’t a clue and this is now recognised as an unchallengeable position. It’s even filtering through to the counters of beans.

    And also, bean counters and senior managers need to learn that the more time you spend keeping them happy with plans and estimates and progress reports/meetings, the less time you've got for doing actual productive work.
    I remember working with someone who hated planning and meetings, so he took
    the piss and produced an estimate which included a proportion of time for
    "NPC" such as producing estimates... which tends to become recursive ;-)


    (*) "Non-productive crap", but he never expanded that acronym and everyone thought it was a technical term that they wouldn't understand even if they
    were told about it.

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  • From Robin@21:1/5 to Dickie mint on Wed Oct 20 19:01:48 2021
    On 20/10/2021 12:41, Dickie mint wrote:
    In my day (retired in 2004) of BBC DR being Pebble Mill we certainly
    never thought of restoring ST & AD.


    I think the 2003 Act which mandated increasingly tough targets for
    subtitles etc may have changed thinking on that over subsequent years.

    --
    Robin
    reply-to address is (intended to be) valid

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