.....added to documentaries. Now my hearing is limited to ~7kHz tops, I
find it irritating to miss important dialogue, swamped with unecessary
loud music. Is this a union agreement to supply revenue to composers and musicians..?

--- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
* Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)

Smolley <s@home.net> wrote:

.....added to documentaries. Now my hearing is limited to ~7kHz tops, I
find it irritating to miss important dialogue, swamped with unecessary
loud music. Is this a union agreement to supply revenue to composers and musicians..?

It ruins nearly every programme for me.

I listen to the start of a programme but it soon becomes clear that the producer has no intention of fading out the music once the dialogue
starts, so I just switch off.

Just because they have continuous music and effects tracks at their
disposal, it doesn't mean they have to fill them the whole time - it's
as though they are children playing with a new toy they have never
learned to use properly.

--
~ Liz Tuddenham ~
(Remove the ".invalid"s and add ".co.uk" to reply)
www.poppyrecords.co.uk

--- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
* Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)

On Tue, 11 Apr 2023 11:59:51 +0100, Liz Tuddenham wrote:

Smolley <s@home.net> wrote:

.....added to documentaries. Now my hearing is limited to ~7kHz tops, I
find it irritating to miss important dialogue, swamped with unecessary
loud music. Is this a union agreement to supply revenue to composers
and musicians..?

It ruins nearly every programme for me.

I listen to the start of a programme but it soon becomes clear that the producer has no intention of fading out the music once the dialogue
starts, so I just switch off.

Just because they have continuous music and effects tracks at their
disposal, it doesn't mean they have to fill them the whole time - it's
as though they are children playing with a new toy they have never
learned to use properly.

Where stereo extists in a broadcast, I think it would be good to have
dialogue on one channel and any associated music on the other channel,
this would give listeners the chance to reduce the music level.

--- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
* Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)

On 11/04/2023 14:20, Woody wrote:

On Tue 11/04/2023 13:58, Smolley wrote:

On Tue, 11 Apr 2023 11:59:51 +0100, Liz Tuddenham wrote:

Smolley <s@home.net> wrote:

.....added to documentaries. Now my hearing is limited to ~7kHz
tops, I
find it irritating to miss important dialogue, swamped with unecessary >>>> loud music. Is this a union agreement to supply revenue to composers
and musicians..?

It ruins nearly every programme for me.

I listen to the start of a programme but it soon becomes clear that the
producer has no intention of fading out the music once the dialogue
starts, so I just switch off.

Just because they have continuous music and effects tracks at their
disposal, it doesn't mean they have to fill them the whole time - it's
as though they are children playing with a new toy they have never
learned to use properly.

Where stereo extists in a broadcast, I think it would be good to have
dialogue on one channel and any associated music on the other channel,
this would give listeners the chance to reduce the music level.

Have you not noticed how many amps do NOT have a balance control these
days?

And, more importantly for this discussion, tellies !  Audio track
selection on UK domestic DVB receivers of any type, is non existent, so
forget the idea !

--- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
* Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)

On Tue 11/04/2023 13:58, Smolley wrote:

On Tue, 11 Apr 2023 11:59:51 +0100, Liz Tuddenham wrote:

Smolley <s@home.net> wrote:

.....added to documentaries. Now my hearing is limited to ~7kHz tops, I
find it irritating to miss important dialogue, swamped with unecessary
loud music. Is this a union agreement to supply revenue to composers
and musicians..?

It ruins nearly every programme for me.

I listen to the start of a programme but it soon becomes clear that the
producer has no intention of fading out the music once the dialogue
starts, so I just switch off.

Just because they have continuous music and effects tracks at their
disposal, it doesn't mean they have to fill them the whole time - it's
as though they are children playing with a new toy they have never
learned to use properly.

Where stereo extists in a broadcast, I think it would be good to have dialogue on one channel and any associated music on the other channel,
this would give listeners the chance to reduce the music level.

Have you not noticed how many amps do NOT have a balance control these days?

--- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
* Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)

On 11/04/2023 11:06, Smolley wrote:

.....added to documentaries. Now my hearing is limited to ~7kHz tops, I
find it irritating to miss important dialogue, swamped with unecessary
loud music. Is this a union agreement to supply revenue to composers and musicians..?

It's mostly excessive low bass that is the problem, popular chillout
versions of electronic dance music (EDM), it engages younger listeners.

What composers and musicians?
Coming soon. AI written copyright free background music.

Oh the other hand, female presenters are purposely chosen with a toppy
almost chipmunk "does he take sugar" friendly (read patronising)
delivery, so maybe they think they have "done" their bit for
intelligibility. AI will replace them someday as well.

There are some audio settings on some TV's that can help, clearvoice?

--
Adrian C

--- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
* Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)

On 12/04/2023 10:47, Smolley wrote:

On Tue, 11 Apr 2023 14:45:08 +0100, Mark Carver wrote:

On 11/04/2023 14:20, Woody wrote:

On Tue 11/04/2023 13:58, Smolley wrote:

On Tue, 11 Apr 2023 11:59:51 +0100, Liz Tuddenham wrote:

Smolley <s@home.net> wrote:

.....added to documentaries. Now my hearing is limited to ~7kHz
tops, I find it irritating to miss important dialogue, swamped with >>>>>> unecessary loud music. Is this a union agreement to supply revenue >>>>>> to composers and musicians..?

It ruins nearly every programme for me.

I listen to the start of a programme but it soon becomes clear that
the producer has no intention of fading out the music once the
dialogue starts, so I just switch off.

Just because they have continuous music and effects tracks at their
disposal, it doesn't mean they have to fill them the whole time -
it's as though they are children playing with a new toy they have
never learned to use properly.

Where stereo extists in a broadcast, I think it would be good to have
dialogue on one channel and any associated music on the other channel, >>>> this would give listeners the chance to reduce the music level.

Have you not noticed how many amps do NOT have a balance control these
days?

And, more importantly for this discussion, tellies !  Audio track
selection on UK domestic DVB receivers of any type, is non existent, so
forget the idea !

I can play TV on my laptop that has full sound control and port it to the Television.

Yep, great, but what about everybody else who will suddenly have
something different coming out of the L and R speakers on their bog
standard tellies ?

--- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
* Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)

On Tue, 11 Apr 2023 14:45:08 +0100, Mark Carver wrote:

On 11/04/2023 14:20, Woody wrote:

On Tue 11/04/2023 13:58, Smolley wrote:

On Tue, 11 Apr 2023 11:59:51 +0100, Liz Tuddenham wrote:

Smolley <s@home.net> wrote:

.....added to documentaries. Now my hearing is limited to ~7kHz
tops, I find it irritating to miss important dialogue, swamped with
unecessary loud music. Is this a union agreement to supply revenue
to composers and musicians..?

It ruins nearly every programme for me.

I listen to the start of a programme but it soon becomes clear that
the producer has no intention of fading out the music once the
dialogue starts, so I just switch off.

Just because they have continuous music and effects tracks at their
disposal, it doesn't mean they have to fill them the whole time -
it's as though they are children playing with a new toy they have
never learned to use properly.

Where stereo extists in a broadcast, I think it would be good to have
dialogue on one channel and any associated music on the other channel,
this would give listeners the chance to reduce the music level.

Have you not noticed how many amps do NOT have a balance control these
days?

And, more importantly for this discussion, tellies !  Audio track
selection on UK domestic DVB receivers of any type, is non existent, so forget the idea !

I can play TV on my laptop that has full sound control and port it to the Television.

--- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
* Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)

I do get annoyed when you are out in a windswept meadow, and birds tweeting, only to find a loud bit of effect music obliterating the scene, then the AD describer can hardly be heard either due to the music.

They never get it right. Music can have its place, but not so out that it drowns out dialogue and AD.


There is a series called inside the Ambulance, which has some of the most annoying short pieces of music. There is one piece that has a piano
accordion playing just as the people start to talk.
While on the subject of Audio description, I find it annoying when there is
a very clear intercom or radio that is giving a message, and the narrator
says the same thing as if we are all deaf.
Then when somebody speaks in a foreign tongue, they do not tell you what
the person said from the subtitle. I do often think that some narrators lost the plot. I would much rather hear the expression on the persons face than a repeat of the already audible radio.
I wanted to watch the documentary about that ferry sinking spread over
several weeks, but although the narrator explained what was on screen, all
the foreign dialogue was never read which made me turn off part way through
the first part.
Brian

--

--:
This newsgroup posting comes to you directly from...
The Sofa of Brian Gaff...
briang1@blueyonder.co.uk
Blind user, so no pictures please
Note this Signature is meaningless.!
"Smolley" <s@home.net> wrote in message news:u13bfa$2k3bq$1@dont-email.me...

.....added to documentaries. Now my hearing is limited to ~7kHz tops, I
find it irritating to miss important dialogue, swamped with unecessary
loud music. Is this a union agreement to supply revenue to composers and musicians..?

--- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
* Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)

On Wed, 12 Apr 2023 11:04:48 +0100, Mark Carver wrote:

On 12/04/2023 10:47, Smolley wrote:

On Tue, 11 Apr 2023 14:45:08 +0100, Mark Carver wrote:

On 11/04/2023 14:20, Woody wrote:

On Tue 11/04/2023 13:58, Smolley wrote:

On Tue, 11 Apr 2023 11:59:51 +0100, Liz Tuddenham wrote:

Smolley <s@home.net> wrote:

.....added to documentaries. Now my hearing is limited to ~7kHz
tops, I find it irritating to miss important dialogue, swamped
with unecessary loud music. Is this a union agreement to supply
revenue to composers and musicians..?

It ruins nearly every programme for me.

I listen to the start of a programme but it soon becomes clear that >>>>>> the producer has no intention of fading out the music once the
dialogue starts, so I just switch off.

Just because they have continuous music and effects tracks at their >>>>>> disposal, it doesn't mean they have to fill them the whole time -
it's as though they are children playing with a new toy they have
never learned to use properly.

Where stereo extists in a broadcast, I think it would be good to
have dialogue on one channel and any associated music on the other
channel,
this would give listeners the chance to reduce the music level.

Have you not noticed how many amps do NOT have a balance control
these days?

And, more importantly for this discussion, tellies !  Audio track
selection on UK domestic DVB receivers of any type, is non existent,
so forget the idea !

I can play TV on my laptop that has full sound control and port it to
the Television.

Yep, great, but what about everybody else who will suddenly have
something different coming out of the L and R speakers on their bog
standard tellies ?

If you mean music over dialogue, then they get that now.

--- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
* Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)

I have reasonably good hearing, up to about 10k, but I do have some tinnitus and also find the music annoying.
In these days of multi channel audio, and location based sound stages, why cannot we have control of this sort of thing ourselves?

I'd definitely consider surround sound if this function was available.
Brian

--

--:
This newsgroup posting comes to you directly from...
The Sofa of Brian Gaff...
briang1@blueyonder.co.uk
Blind user, so no pictures please
Note this Signature is meaningless.!
"Liz Tuddenham" <liz@poppyrecords.invalid.invalid> wrote in message news:1q90uf7.1jfnui515fculuN%liz@poppyrecords.invalid.invalid...

Smolley <s@home.net> wrote:

.....added to documentaries. Now my hearing is limited to ~7kHz tops, I
find it irritating to miss important dialogue, swamped with unecessary
loud music. Is this a union agreement to supply revenue to composers and
musicians..?

It ruins nearly every programme for me.

I listen to the start of a programme but it soon becomes clear that the producer has no intention of fading out the music once the dialogue
starts, so I just switch off.

Just because they have continuous music and effects tracks at their
disposal, it doesn't mean they have to fill them the whole time - it's
as though they are children playing with a new toy they have never
learned to use properly.

--
~ Liz Tuddenham ~
(Remove the ".invalid"s and add ".co.uk" to reply)
www.poppyrecords.co.uk

--- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
* Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)

On 12/04/2023 13:09, Smolley wrote:

On Wed, 12 Apr 2023 11:04:48 +0100, Mark Carver wrote:

On 12/04/2023 10:47, Smolley wrote:

On Tue, 11 Apr 2023 14:45:08 +0100, Mark Carver wrote:

On 11/04/2023 14:20, Woody wrote:

On Tue 11/04/2023 13:58, Smolley wrote:

On Tue, 11 Apr 2023 11:59:51 +0100, Liz Tuddenham wrote:

Smolley <s@home.net> wrote:

.....added to documentaries. Now my hearing is limited to ~7kHz >>>>>>>> tops, I find it irritating to miss important dialogue, swamped >>>>>>>> with unecessary loud music. Is this a union agreement to supply >>>>>>>> revenue to composers and musicians..?

It ruins nearly every programme for me.

I listen to the start of a programme but it soon becomes clear that >>>>>>> the producer has no intention of fading out the music once the
dialogue starts, so I just switch off.

Just because they have continuous music and effects tracks at their >>>>>>> disposal, it doesn't mean they have to fill them the whole time - >>>>>>> it's as though they are children playing with a new toy they have >>>>>>> never learned to use properly.

Where stereo extists in a broadcast, I think it would be good to
have dialogue on one channel and any associated music on the other >>>>>> channel,
this would give listeners the chance to reduce the music level.

Have you not noticed how many amps do NOT have a balance control
these days?

And, more importantly for this discussion, tellies !  Audio track
selection on UK domestic DVB receivers of any type, is non existent,
so forget the idea !

I can play TV on my laptop that has full sound control and port it to
the Television.

Yep, great, but what about everybody else who will suddenly have
something different coming out of the L and R speakers on their bog
standard tellies ?

If you mean music over dialogue, then they get that now.

Indeed they do, but with an uncontrollable (by the viewers) mix.

It's all too late, the UK DVB standards should have mandated proper
track selection etc.

We've got the lunacy of the BBC having to have a completely different
(normally some soggy SD video) stream for any 'no commentary' options
for event coverage, which is just nuts.

--- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
* Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)

On 12/04/2023 13:21, Brian Gaff wrote:

Yes however have you also noticed that many amps are unusable by a blind person due to touch controls or no depressed buttons?

I do think many device designers are looking merely at flashy styling and reducing costs, while forgetting that there is a market out there for other features. To do the separation of music and dialogue though would need to involve the content creators in a way to make these things separate, which would require more channels than just, and AD

Many blind people have commented to me that on these pay for services, if you engage AD, then you lose either all surround or dolby atmos. However, Apple TV seem to be able to make it work, so why not the others. To a visually impaired TV user, surely the surround or Atmos output is a value added thing, since they cannot see the images. To stop it when AD is used seems totally counter intuitive.

I suppose it depends on how the AD track is used. At one time, UK TV
seemed to use the AD track *only* for the AD narration, with the
programme sound (dialogue, music and effects) *only* on the normal
track. That would have allowed AD-equipped amplifiers to vary the level
of AD compared with programme sound, providing it can play both tracks.

But recent practice seems to be to duplicate programme sound on AD,
maybe in mono or reduced-bitrate form, and for playing equipment to play
one track *or* the other, but not a variable combination of them.
Software players, such as VLC, can only play one track or the other,
with no facility for mixing them, and I suppose that is done because it reflects modern (and/or non-UK) use of the AD track as
AD-plus-programme-sound.

--- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
* Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)

Yes however have you also noticed that many amps are unusable by a blind
person due to touch controls or no depressed buttons?

I do think many device designers are looking merely at flashy styling and reducing costs, while forgetting that there is a market out there for other features. To do the separation of music and dialogue though would need to involve the content creators in a way to make these things separate, which would require more channels than just, and AD

Many blind people have commented to me that on these pay for services, if
you engage AD, then you lose either all surround or dolby atmos. However,
Apple TV seem to be able to make it work, so why not the others. To a
visually impaired TV user, surely the surround or Atmos output is a value
added thing, since they cannot see the images. To stop it when AD is used
seems totally counter intuitive.
Brian

--

--:
This newsgroup posting comes to you directly from...
The Sofa of Brian Gaff...
briang1@blueyonder.co.uk
Blind user, so no pictures please
Note this Signature is meaningless.!
"Woody" <harrogate3@ntlworld.com> wrote in message news:u13mqv$2l38n$1@dont-email.me...

On Tue 11/04/2023 13:58, Smolley wrote:

On Tue, 11 Apr 2023 11:59:51 +0100, Liz Tuddenham wrote:

Smolley <s@home.net> wrote:

.....added to documentaries. Now my hearing is limited to ~7kHz tops, I >>>> find it irritating to miss important dialogue, swamped with unecessary >>>> loud music. Is this a union agreement to supply revenue to composers
and musicians..?

It ruins nearly every programme for me.

I listen to the start of a programme but it soon becomes clear that the
producer has no intention of fading out the music once the dialogue
starts, so I just switch off.

Just because they have continuous music and effects tracks at their
disposal, it doesn't mean they have to fill them the whole time - it's
as though they are children playing with a new toy they have never
learned to use properly.

Where stereo extists in a broadcast, I think it would be good to have
dialogue on one channel and any associated music on the other channel,
this would give listeners the chance to reduce the music level.

Have you not noticed how many amps do NOT have a balance control these
days?

--- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
* Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)

On Wed, 12 Apr 2023 13:21:18 +0100, "Brian Gaff"
<brian1gaff@gmail.com> wrote:

Yes however have you also noticed that many amps are unusable by a blind >person due to touch controls or no depressed buttons?

I'm not blind but I find touch controls impossible to use. My clumsy
fingers either miss the controls or touch more than one.

--- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
* Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)

On 12/04/2023 13:13, Mark Carver wrote:

On 12/04/2023 13:09, Smolley wrote:

On Wed, 12 Apr 2023 11:04:48 +0100, Mark Carver wrote:

On 12/04/2023 10:47, Smolley wrote:

On Tue, 11 Apr 2023 14:45:08 +0100, Mark Carver wrote:

On 11/04/2023 14:20, Woody wrote:

On Tue 11/04/2023 13:58, Smolley wrote:

On Tue, 11 Apr 2023 11:59:51 +0100, Liz Tuddenham wrote:

Smolley <s@home.net> wrote:

.....added to documentaries. Now my hearing is limited to ~7kHz >>>>>>>>> tops, I find it irritating to miss important dialogue, swamped >>>>>>>>> with unecessary loud music. Is this a union agreement to supply >>>>>>>>> revenue to composers and musicians..?

It ruins nearly every programme for me.

I listen to the start of a programme but it soon becomes clear that >>>>>>>> the producer has no intention of fading out the music once the >>>>>>>> dialogue starts, so I just switch off.

Just because they have continuous music and effects tracks at their >>>>>>>> disposal, it doesn't mean they have to fill them the whole time - >>>>>>>> it's as though they are children playing with a new toy they have >>>>>>>> never learned to use properly.

Where stereo extists in a broadcast, I think it would be good to >>>>>>> have dialogue on one channel and any associated music on the other >>>>>>> channel,
this would give listeners the chance to reduce the music level.

Have you not noticed how many amps do NOT have a balance control
these days?

And, more importantly for this discussion, tellies !  Audio track
selection on UK domestic DVB receivers of any type, is non existent, >>>>> so forget the idea !

I can play TV on my laptop that has full sound control and port it to
the Television.

Yep, great, but what about everybody else who will suddenly have
something different coming out of the L and R speakers on their bog
standard tellies ?

If you mean music over dialogue, then they get that now.

Indeed they do, but with an uncontrollable (by the viewers) mix.

It's all too late, the UK DVB standards should have mandated proper
track selection etc.

We've got the lunacy of the BBC having to have a completely different (normally some soggy SD video) stream for any 'no commentary' options
for event coverage, which is just nuts.

Am I barking to think that the Blue Book covered the use of multiple, synchronised AC3 streams for just such purposes?

--
Robin
reply-to address is (intended to be) valid

--- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
* Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)

On 12/04/2023 13:42, NY wrote:
snip

I suppose it depends on how the AD track is used. At one time, UK TV
seemed to use the AD track *only* for the AD narration, with the
programme sound (dialogue, music and effects) *only* on the normal
track. That would have allowed AD-equipped amplifiers to vary the level
of AD compared with programme sound, providing it can play both tracks.

But recent practice seems to be to duplicate programme sound on AD,
maybe in mono or reduced-bitrate form, and for playing equipment to play
one track *or* the other, but not a variable combination of them.
Software players, such as VLC, can only play one track or the other,
with no facility for mixing them, and I suppose that is done because it reflects modern (and/or non-UK) use of the AD track as AD-plus-programme-sound.

As I recall, from my days in the job, the BBC wanted to do AD properly
with one channel of a second audio stream with mono dialogue and the
other as a control track. This would be received by a box of tricks
where the user could vary the volume of the AD and even possibly move
the AD from side to side. Indeed I was privvy to the trials. I think
there's an ancient BBC R & D note on it.

But commercial interests overruled the Beeb, who had spent most time on developing AD, in favour of a 'studio mixed' AD stream.

The BBC scheme saved bitrate. But commercial broadcasters were using low bitrate to cram more into a Mux, so weren't bothered!

--- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
* Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)