Now that the Irish are leaving too, how long can the BBC keep going? I noticed some weaker stations sounding distinctly Russian and in one case Arabic, but why is LW no longer a good idea? Is it the large sizes of aerials, or the terrible interference we all suffer from from various
devices these days. I guess if there was a market for it still, radios would still come with the band and transmitter makers would be doing more than fixing broken bits of old kit.
Brian
The only reason we are keeping our Long Wave station going is because
the carrier is modulated to carry timing information for the surviving
older off peak metering systems, and as soon as they are replaced by
more modern systems, the transmitters will be turned off, partly due to
the massive cost of the power they use. You can buy a solid state
replacement for the current valve transmitters almost off the shelf. It
would be a modular design, and rather more efficient than the current
system. The makers are, if I remember correctly, German.
The benefit of long wave was the large area that could be covered by a
single transmitter. A downside was the low and variable sound quality.
Radios were cheap and easy to make, and a long wire antenna with a diode could directly power a crystal earpiece in most parts of England
The range made it easy to cover even a large country, but also made co-channel interference with the neighbours' stations a problem once the service started spreading worldwide.
Medium wave reduced the coverage area per transmitter, so the co-channel problem was reduced, though the bandwidth and distortion problems
remained. It also suffered from skip interference, where your station
would appear strongly three countries away with excellent reception for
a few hours at a time, but not in the countries between you and there,
and all your listeners would moan about not being able to hear you over
some foreign gabble. Radio sets were still cheap and easy to make, even
the crystal sets still sort of worked.
Then FM sets became cheap enough for the mass market, and FM line of
sight offered much better sound quality and let local radio become a
real thing. More recently, DAB is getting cheaper, and is taking over
the FM market.
Russia has a very large area to cover, and is, overall, a poor country
with limited facilities, so it makes sense for them to put a *big* long
wave transmitter somewhere near the middle, rather than a network of
smaller ones in each town. They are closing down their Medium Wave
stations, probably replacing them with FM whihc can't be received
outside their line of sight.
Because of the coverage pattern, Russia also uses a lot of short wave
band broadcasting, though they are replacing a lot of the official,
coded stuff with satellites.
On Mon 03/04/2023 12:02, John Williamson wrote:
The only reason we are keeping our Long Wave station going is because
the carrier is modulated to carry timing information for the surviving
older off peak metering systems, and as soon as they are replaced by
more modern systems, the transmitters will be turned off, partly due
to the massive cost of the power they use. You can buy a solid state
replacement for the current valve transmitters almost off the shelf.
It would be a modular design, and rather more efficient than the
current system. The makers are, if I remember correctly, German.
They are Nautel and manufactured in Canada.
On 03/04/2023 14:30, Woody wrote:
On Mon 03/04/2023 12:02, John Williamson wrote:
The only reason we are keeping our Long Wave station going is because
the carrier is modulated to carry timing information for the surviving
older off peak metering systems, and as soon as they are replaced by
more modern systems, the transmitters will be turned off, partly due
to the massive cost of the power they use. You can buy a solid state
replacement for the current valve transmitters almost off the shelf.
It would be a modular design, and rather more efficient than the
current system. The makers are, if I remember correctly, German.
They are Nautel and manufactured in Canada.Thanks for the correction.
--
Tciao for Now!
John.
I was going to say, it cannot be that its hard to make an LW transmitter, more to do with the size of an efficient aerial.
Brian
You just need a biggish field, and you can make a profit by using the
land for grazing, growing crops, or, nowadays, by installing solar
panels to power the transmitter with a bit left over to sell.
When the Daventry antenna farm was still in use, I kept seeing animals
in the grounds when I drove past.
The expensive bit is inside the buildings.
You just need a biggish field, and you can make a profit by using the
land for grazing, growing crops, or, nowadays, by installing solar
panels to power the transmitter with a bit left over to sell.
The expensive bit now is powering the things inside the buildings.
That's why Absolute Radio closed their transmitters, and why TalkSport's
are reportedly running at -6dB
If you assume Droitwich's 198 kHz is a 100% efficient (it won't be), and
the antenna system gain is 0dB (it might be), then that's 400kW. Assume 33p/unit then that's 132 quid an hour., 3.1k per day, 1.1 million quid a year. Yea, OK solar panels would help a bit, but if you think that's sustainable in this day and age (with one man and his dog left
listening) think again.
On 04/04/2023 13:36, John Williamson wrote:
You just need a biggish field, and you can make a profit by using the
land for grazing, growing crops, or, nowadays, by installing solar
panels to power the transmitter with a bit left over to sell.
When the Daventry antenna farm was still in use, I kept seeing animals
in the grounds when I drove past.
The expensive bit is inside the buildings.
The expensive bit now is powering the things inside the buildings.
That's why Absolute Radio closed their transmitters, and why TalkSport's
are reportedly running at -6dB
If you assume Droitwich's 198 kHz is a 100% efficient (it won't be), and
the antenna system gain is 0dB (it might be), then that's 400kW. Assume 33p/unit then that's 132 quid an hour., 3.1k per day, 1.1 million quid a year. Yea, OK solar panels would help a bit, but if you think that's sustainable in this day and age (with one man and his dog left
listening) think again.
In all seriousness, who listens to LW these days?
On 04/04/2023 16:25, Tweed wrote:
In all seriousness, who listens to LW these days?A lot of dual rate electricity meters, though they are a dying breed.
Mark Carver <mark.carver@invalid.invalid> wrote:
On 04/04/2023 13:36, John Williamson wrote:
You just need a biggish field, and you can make a profit by using the
land for grazing, growing crops, or, nowadays, by installing solar
panels to power the transmitter with a bit left over to sell.
When the Daventry antenna farm was still in use, I kept seeing animals
in the grounds when I drove past.
The expensive bit is inside the buildings.
The expensive bit now is powering the things inside the buildings.
That's why Absolute Radio closed their transmitters, and why TalkSport's
are reportedly running at -6dB
If you assume Droitwich's 198 kHz is a 100% efficient (it won't be), and
the antenna system gain is 0dB (it might be), then that's 400kW. Assume
33p/unit then that's 132 quid an hour., 3.1k per day, 1.1 million quid a
year. Yea, OK solar panels would help a bit, but if you think that's
sustainable in this day and age (with one man and his dog left
listening) think again.
You’d need an awful lot of solar panels. I’ve 10 installed on my roof >recently. On a very sunny day like today they manage three and a bit kW.
And you’d have to close down at dusk :)
In all seriousness, who listens to LW these days?
In article <u0hfgn$3fgou$1@dont-email.me>, Tweed
<usenet.tweed@gmail.com> scribeth thus
Mark Carver <mark.carver@invalid.invalid> wrote:
On 04/04/2023 13:36, John Williamson wrote:
You just need a biggish field, and you can make a profit by using the
land for grazing, growing crops, or, nowadays, by installing solar
panels to power the transmitter with a bit left over to sell.
When the Daventry antenna farm was still in use, I kept seeing animals >>>> in the grounds when I drove past.
The expensive bit is inside the buildings.
The expensive bit now is powering the things inside the buildings.
That's why Absolute Radio closed their transmitters, and why TalkSport's >>> are reportedly running at -6dB
If you assume Droitwich's 198 kHz is a 100% efficient (it won't be), and >>> the antenna system gain is 0dB (it might be), then that's 400kW. Assume
33p/unit then that's 132 quid an hour., 3.1k per day, 1.1 million quid a >>> year. Yea, OK solar panels would help a bit, but if you think that's
sustainable in this day and age (with one man and his dog left
listening) think again.
You’d need an awful lot of solar panels. I’ve 10 installed on my roof
recently. On a very sunny day like today they manage three and a bit kW.
And you’d have to close down at dusk :)
In all seriousness, who listens to LW these days?
I suspect a few die-hards do as well as some who listen to that RTE LW service in the UK 'an all:)
The only reason we are keeping our Long Wave station going is because
the carrier is modulated to carry timing information for the surviving
older off peak metering systems, and as soon as they are replaced by
more modern systems, the transmitters will be turned off, partly due to
the massive cost of the power they use. You can buy a solid state
replacement for the current valve transmitters almost off the shelf. It
would be a modular design, and rather more efficient than the current
system. The makers are, if I remember correctly, German.
On Mon, 3 Apr 2023 12:02:56 +0100, John Williamson <johnwilliamson@btinternet.com> wrote:
The only reason we are keeping our Long Wave station going is becauseI assume all three LW transmitters have to broadcast radio teleswitch
the carrier is modulated to carry timing information for the surviving
older off peak metering systems, and as soon as they are replaced by
more modern systems, the transmitters will be turned off, partly due to
the massive cost of the power they use. You can buy a solid state
replacement for the current valve transmitters almost off the shelf. It
would be a modular design, and rather more efficient than the current
system. The makers are, if I remember correctly, German.
or the signals from Westerglen and Burghead would swamp the teleswitch signal?
Scott <newsgroups@gefion.myzen.co.uk> wrote:
On Mon, 3 Apr 2023 12:02:56 +0100, John Williamson
<johnwilliamson@btinternet.com> wrote:
The only reason we are keeping our Long Wave station going is becauseI assume all three LW transmitters have to broadcast radio teleswitch
the carrier is modulated to carry timing information for the surviving
older off peak metering systems, and as soon as they are replaced by
more modern systems, the transmitters will be turned off, partly due to
the massive cost of the power they use. You can buy a solid state
replacement for the current valve transmitters almost off the shelf. It
would be a modular design, and rather more efficient than the current
system. The makers are, if I remember correctly, German.
or the signals from Westerglen and Burghead would swamp the teleswitch
signal?
Yes all three LW transmitters emit the radio teleswitch signal.
https://www.energynetworks.org/industry-hub/engineering-and-technical-programmes/radio-teleswitch
Technical specifications
The system basically comprises user terminals and modems, the central teleswitch control unit (CTCU) the LF Data System, the 198kHz BBC Radio
Four transmission system and radio teleswitching receiver controllers
(RCs).
Each user of the system, the electricity distribution networks operators
and electricity transmission network operator has a unique set of codes enabling them to address only their own block of meters and switches.
These instructions are sent by the network operators to the Central Teleswitch Control Unit (CTCU) housed and maintained by Cygnet Solutions.
The CTCU processes and forwards their switching codes to the BBC Message Assembler at Crystal Palace.
Here, the electricity industry codes are combined with the instructions
from other users of the service and sent to the three national networks of transmitters. The main transmitter at Droitwich (see also the BBC site), rated at 500kW, can reach most parts of the UK and some parts of
continental Europe while the two smaller transmitters located at
Westerglen
and Burghead cover Scotland and Northern Ireland.
At present, it is understood that the only other user of the system is the Environment Agency who use the system to disseminate flood warnings.
Messages are encoded onto the Amplitude Modulated (AM) Radio 4 signal
using
Phase Shift Keying (PSK) techniques.
30 messages are transmitted per minute, each message having 50 bits of
data. 18 of these bits are taken up by a BBC header and Cyclic Redundancy Check (CRC) tail. 32 bits are available for data.
The RadioTeleswitch specification (BS7647) lays down specific formats for
its user message contents. Two message types are defined:
command (or immediate) which has priority of broadcast, and on receipt immediately sets a Teleswitch (RCs) internal switches to required status, overriding any programmed status;
programme, which updates or refreshes the operating program stored within
a
Teleswitch (i.e. internal switches will not change status until required
by
the program).
An 'immediate' instruction can take one or two minutes from initiation of
a
request at the terminal of a user, depending on other traffic on the data system, and is intended to allow fast, broadcast load shedding.
The system's ability to offer users both programmed and immediate
broadcast
control have enabled companies using the system to provide weather-related control of electricity storage heaters in specialised arrangements such as 'budget warmth' and 'heat with rent' schemes.
The transmission of cost reflective messages and weather forecast
information has allowed the concept of controlled consumption to be
extended to provide more comprehensive forms of premium heating and other services. The ability to influence demand patterns more finely so that
they
respond more immediately to changes in supply cost, is to the advantage of both suppliers and customers. It gives customers another form of choice.
Other applications already in place, or currently possible, include
regional flood warning alarm systems, common remote control at multiple sites, such as weather-related environmental control in unmanned
buildings,
the control of services such as water and gas at point of entry into
premises or, in the case of water, at points of connection to storage
tanks
and the replacement of other more expensive in-house remote control
systems.
Which got me to thinking, how low a frequency could one use that would still have enough bandwidth to send audio over?
Which got me to thinking, how low a frequency could one use that would
still have enough bandwidth to send audio over?
If we are talking AM then I'd suggest it would need to be at least 50Khz,
to accommodate it.
Which got me to thinking, how low a frequency could one use that would still have enough bandwidth to send audio over?
If we are talking AM then I'd suggest it would need to be at least 50Khz,
to accommodate it.
On Tue 04/04/2023 18:59, tony sayer wrote:
In article <u0hfgn$3fgou$1@dont-email.me>, Tweed
<usenet.tweed@gmail.com> scribeth thus
Mark Carver <mark.carver@invalid.invalid> wrote:
On 04/04/2023 13:36, John Williamson wrote:
You just need a biggish field, and you can make a profit by using the >>>>> land for grazing, growing crops, or, nowadays, by installing solar
panels to power the transmitter with a bit left over to sell.
When the Daventry antenna farm was still in use, I kept seeing animals >>>>> in the grounds when I drove past.
The expensive bit is inside the buildings.
The expensive bit now is powering the things inside the buildings.
That's why Absolute Radio closed their transmitters, and why TalkSport's >>>> are reportedly running at -6dB
If you assume Droitwich's 198 kHz is a 100% efficient (it won't be), and >>>> the antenna system gain is 0dB (it might be), then that's 400kW. Assume >>>> 33p/unit then that's 132 quid an hour., 3.1k per day, 1.1 million quid a >>>> year. Yea, OK solar panels would help a bit, but if you think that's
sustainable in this day and age (with one man and his dog left
listening) think again.
You’d need an awful lot of solar panels. I’ve 10 installed on my roof >>> recently. On a very sunny day like today they manage three and a bit kW. >>> And you’d have to close down at dusk :)
In all seriousness, who listens to LW these days?
I suspect a few die-hards do as well as some who listen to that RTE LW
service in the UK 'an all:)
Except RTE Radio 1 on 252KHz closes on 14th of this month.
Its a wonder that Irish programming isn't on DAB in the UK?...
On 05/04/2023 10:44, Brian Gaff wrote:
Which got me to thinking, how low a frequency could one use that wouldIt uses phase shift modulation, the teleswitching data rate channel is
still
have enough bandwidth to send audio over?
tiny, 25 BITS per second.
http://txfeatures.mb21.co.uk/teleswitching/index.shtml
I was meaning if you wanted it to be an audio carrier. Obviously the Q of
the coil wood be higher, but I'd have thought this could be dampened enough to get the spoken word through. The aerial to transmit from, though would be very large if any kind of efficiency was required. Some radio hams have used the very low frequencies now available and they have not been very
successful at all.
In article <u0hq90$3h392$1@dont-email.me>, Woody
<harrogate3@ntlworld.com> scribeth thus
On Tue 04/04/2023 18:59, tony sayer wrote:
In article <u0hfgn$3fgou$1@dont-email.me>, Tweed
<usenet.tweed@gmail.com> scribeth thus
Mark Carver <mark.carver@invalid.invalid> wrote:
On 04/04/2023 13:36, John Williamson wrote:
You just need a biggish field, and you can make a profit by using the >>>>>> land for grazing, growing crops, or, nowadays, by installing solar >>>>>> panels to power the transmitter with a bit left over to sell.
When the Daventry antenna farm was still in use, I kept seeing animals >>>>>> in the grounds when I drove past.
The expensive bit is inside the buildings.
The expensive bit now is powering the things inside the buildings.
That's why Absolute Radio closed their transmitters, and why TalkSport's >>>>> are reportedly running at -6dB
If you assume Droitwich's 198 kHz is a 100% efficient (it won't be), and >>>>> the antenna system gain is 0dB (it might be), then that's 400kW. Assume >>>>> 33p/unit then that's 132 quid an hour., 3.1k per day, 1.1 million quid a >>>>> year. Yea, OK solar panels would help a bit, but if you think that's >>>>> sustainable in this day and age (with one man and his dog left
listening) think again.
You’d need an awful lot of solar panels. I’ve 10 installed on my roof >>>> recently. On a very sunny day like today they manage three and a bit kW. >>>> And you’d have to close down at dusk :)
In all seriousness, who listens to LW these days?
I suspect a few die-hards do as well as some who listen to that RTE LW
service in the UK 'an all:)
Except RTE Radio 1 on 252KHz closes on 14th of this month.
Shame that 'seein thats where my roots are!
Its a wonder that Irish programming isn't on DAB in the UK?...
On 03/04/2023 10:36, Brian Gaff wrote:
Now that the Irish are leaving too, how long can the BBC keep going? I
noticed some weaker stations sounding distinctly Russian and in one
case
Arabic, but why is LW no longer a good idea? Is it the large sizes of
aerials, or the terrible interference we all suffer from from various
devices these days. I guess if there was a market for it still, radios
would
still come with the band and transmitter makers would be doing more than
fixing broken bits of old kit.
Brian
Russia has a very large area to cover, and is, overall, a poor country
with limited facilities, so it makes sense for them to put a *big* long
wave transmitter somewhere near the middle, rather than a network of
smaller ones in each town. They are closing down their Medium Wave
stations, probably replacing them with FM whihc can't be received
outside their line of sight.
Because of the coverage pattern, Russia also uses a lot of short wave
band broadcasting, though they are replacing a lot of the official,
coded stuff with satellites.
I thought the Radio 4 was going? I notice its still there, and just next
to it is a foreign station. I don't recognise the language though. Brian
I thought the Radio 4 was going?
I notice its still there, and just next to it is a foreign station.
On 03/10/2023 13:28, Marco Moock wrote:
Am 03.10.2023 um 12:13:35 Uhr schrieb Brian Gaff:
I thought the Radio 4 was going?
There are plans, current rumor is March 2024.
The BBC keep changing their minds. They've updated the announcement
today carried on 198 LW to, 'Separate Programmes will cease after March
31 2024.
Last week they were saying all programmes on LW would cease before March
31st 2024
Am 03.10.2023 um 12:13:35 Uhr schrieb Brian Gaff:
I thought the Radio 4 was going?
There are plans, current rumor is March 2024.
On 03/10/2023 16:32, Mark Carver wrote:
On 03/10/2023 13:28, Marco Moock wrote:The switch off date depends on how long the electricity suppliers need
Am 03.10.2023 um 12:13:35 Uhr schrieb Brian Gaff:
I thought the Radio 4 was going?
There are plans, current rumor is March 2024.
The BBC keep changing their minds. They've updated the announcement
today carried on 198 LW to, 'Separate Programmes will cease after March
31 2024.
Last week they were saying all programmes on LW would cease before March
31st 2024
the signal to transmit their switching codes, (They use it for a lot
more than just dual tariff meter switching) and how much they are
willing to pay towards the cost of running the transmitters. The only problems for the BBC are the programme licencing deals and their
percentage of what Arqiva are charging.
On 04/04/2023 13:36, John Williamson wrote:
You just need a biggish field, and you can make a profit by using the
land for grazing, growing crops, or, nowadays, by installing solar
panels to power the transmitter with a bit left over to sell.
I suspect that all the extra screen and protection to the control
systems might cancel out any gains.
I can't remember the figures but it was said that the M&S store at
Lisburn was their most expensive to build.
On 03/10/2023 16:42, John Williamson wrote:
On 03/10/2023 16:32, Mark Carver wrote:
On 03/10/2023 13:28, Marco Moock wrote:The switch off date depends on how long the electricity suppliers need
Am 03.10.2023 um 12:13:35 Uhr schrieb Brian Gaff:
I thought the Radio 4 was going?
There are plans, current rumor is March 2024.
The BBC keep changing their minds. They've updated the announcement
today carried on 198 LW to, 'Separate Programmes will cease after March >>> 31 2024.
Last week they were saying all programmes on LW would cease before March >>> 31st 2024
the signal to transmit their switching codes, (They use it for a lot
more than just dual tariff meter switching) and how much they are
willing to pay towards the cost of running the transmitters. The only
problems for the BBC are the programme licencing deals and their
percentage of what Arqiva are charging.
There's a school of thought that the BBC will simply hand the 198 LW >transmitters over to the electricity industry on March 31, in which case
all audio broadcasting will cease, and there will just be a silent phase >modulated carrier.
Similar to the 162 LW Tx in France
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/ALS162_time_signal
On 06/04/2023 20:44, tony sayer wrote:
Its a wonder that Irish programming isn't on DAB in the UK?...
Wasn't there talk of it at one time.
The life of Radio Teleswitching is being extended through to March 2024.
There's a school of thought that the BBC will simply hand the 198 LW
transmitters over to the electricity industry on March 31, in which case
all audio broadcasting will cease, and there will just be a silent phase
modulated carrier.
Would this reduce power consumption?
On Tue, 3 Oct 2023 17:32:51 +0100, Mark Carver[]
<mark.carver@invalid.invalid> wrote:
[]There's a school of thought that the BBC will simply hand the 198 LW >>transmitters over to the electricity industry on March 31, in which case >>all audio broadcasting will cease, and there will just be a silent phase >>modulated carrier.
Would this reduce power consumption?
Is this because of shielding from electromagnetic radiation? I once
visited the radio museum at Lahti in the old transmission hall below the
main antenna and some fluorescent tubes were illuminated without being plugged in. There was also a demonstration that involved pointing a
spike at an earthed reinforcing of the concrete to create an electric arc.
In message <8vhohi1bim96dbf5in1st835jlkc1ghpd3@4ax.com> at Tue, 3 Oct
2023 17:58:02, Scott <newsgroups@gefion.myzen.co.uk> writes
On Tue, 3 Oct 2023 17:32:51 +0100, Mark Carver ><mark.carver@invalid.invalid> wrote:[]
There's a school of thought that the BBC will simply hand the 198 LW >>transmitters over to the electricity industry on March 31, in which case >>all audio broadcasting will cease, and there will just be a silent phase >>modulated carrier.
Would this reduce power consumption?[]
Slightly, if the power radiated is the same as that which was radiated
when the audio modulation was silent. I figure this thus - please
challenge me - it's a _long_ time since I did this sort of theory:
Assuming 100% audio modulation, you'd have RF going out from twice the voltage (at the peaks of the audio) down to zero (at the troughs of the audio). Twice the voltage is four times the power. Thus you'd always use
more on the positive (modulation sense) audio excursions than you'd save
on the negative excursions.
In spectrum terms, unmodulated carrier is a peak at the nominal power; modulation adds two sidebands at (if a pure sine tone modulation, 100% modulation depth) half the amplitude, without removing the carrier -
thus representing power that has to come from somewhere.
In practice, (a) 100% modulation is avoided because of the danger of
clipping (which as well as distorting the audio as received, tends to generate out-of-band products), and (b) even if it was, the programme material - especially Radio 4, which is mostly speech with its
consequent gaps - is far from anywhere near whatever maximum modulation
_is_ used anyway for most of the time.
So - _if_ the unmodulated carrier used is the same power as that used
now when the audio is silent - yes, removing the modulation _will_ use
less power - though by quite a small proportion. (Though of hundreds of
kW, probably still noticeable!)
If they decide to up the power to what it was at peak positive
modulation, we're in a different game - but since it works at the
present level, they'd need a very good justification to do so.
J. P. Gilliver <G6JPG@255soft.uk> wrote:[]
So - _if_ the unmodulated carrier used is the same power as that used
now when the audio is silent - yes, removing the modulation _will_ use
less power - though by quite a small proportion. (Though of hundreds of
kW, probably still noticeable!)
If they decide to up the power to what it was at peak positive
modulation, we're in a different game - but since it works at the
present level, they'd need a very good justification to do so.
For a long while, I seem to remember, Docherty modulation was used,
which was a lot more efficient than using a Class-B audio amplifier.
Nowadays they probably use something similar but with switching, so the >modulator losses are even lower. If the modulator is a separate unit
and they switch it off altogether, there will be no modulator losses at
all.
There will also be a saving in the cost of running the audio links to
the transmitter site.
On 03/10/2023 23:44, J. P. Gilliver wrote:
And many other _administrative_ savings. I was answering the question of
_power_. (OK, the power to run the distribution links enters into it,
but compared to the radiated power, pretty small.)
I suppose it depends on whether the sites would continue to be used for
other services.
If the sites can be closed then there would be huge savings.
On 03/10/2023 23:44, J. P. Gilliver wrote:
And many other _administrative_ savings. I was answering the question
of _power_. (OK, the power to run the distribution links enters into
it, but compared to the radiated power, pretty small.)
I suppose it depends on whether the sites would continue to be used for
other services.
If the sites can be closed then there would be huge savings.
And many other _administrative_ savings. I was answering the question of _power_. (OK, the power to run the distribution links enters into it,
but compared to the radiated power, pretty small.)
In message <1qi1o36.twwkh4rxiyusN%liz@poppyrecords.invalid.invalid> at
Tue, 3 Oct 2023 21:47:47, Liz Tuddenham
<liz@poppyrecords.invalid.invalid> writes
J. P. Gilliver <G6JPG@255soft.uk> wrote:[]
So - _if_ the unmodulated carrier used is the same power as that used
now when the audio is silent - yes, removing the modulation _will_ use
less power - though by quite a small proportion. (Though of hundreds of
kW, probably still noticeable!)
If they decide to up the power to what it was at peak positive
modulation, we're in a different game - but since it works at the
present level, they'd need a very good justification to do so.
For a long while, I seem to remember, Docherty modulation was used,
which was a lot more efficient than using a Class-B audio amplifier. >Nowadays they probably use something similar but with switching, so the >modulator losses are even lower. If the modulator is a separate unit
and they switch it off altogether, there will be no modulator losses at >all.
I was assuming perfect efficiency of the modulator: basically, just
looking at what was (is) radiated. If the unmodulated signal they
eventually radiate (other than the phase modulation, which is there now)
is not any stronger than the modulated signal is now when there is a
pause in the audio, then yes, removing modulation will represent a
(small in practice) reduction in power, since no sidebands will be present/radiated.
There will also be a saving in the cost of running the audio links to
the transmitter site.
And many other _administrative_ savings. I was answering the question of _power_. (OK, the power to run the distribution links enters into it,
but compared to the radiated power, pretty small.)
On Wed, 4 Oct 2023 10:23:46 +0100, JMB99 <mb@nospam.net> wrote:
On 03/10/2023 23:44, J. P. Gilliver wrote:Even better, I think the site at Droitwich could be sold at a massive
And many other _administrative_ savings. I was answering the question of >>> _power_. (OK, the power to run the distribution links enters into it,
but compared to the radiated power, pretty small.)
I suppose it depends on whether the sites would continue to be used for
other services.
If the sites can be closed then there would be huge savings.
profit for housing development.
Does anyone know if Arqiva owns the site outright or occupies it on a
long lease. If the latter, does the BBC retain ownership? It could be
owned by almost anyone, I suppose, these days.
They are gaining on the financial side, but they are losing the ability
to contact people over a wide area in the event of an emergency which
shuts down the internet.
On 04/10/2023 10:59, Scott wrote:
On Wed, 4 Oct 2023 10:23:46 +0100, JMB99 <mb@nospam.net> wrote:
On 03/10/2023 23:44, J. P. Gilliver wrote:Even better, I think the site at Droitwich could be sold at a massive profit for housing development.
And many other _administrative_ savings. I was answering the question of >>> _power_. (OK, the power to run the distribution links enters into it,
but compared to the radiated power, pretty small.)
I suppose it depends on whether the sites would continue to be used for
other services.
If the sites can be closed then there would be huge savings.
Does anyone know if Arqiva owns the site outright or occupies it on a
long lease. If the latter, does the BBC retain ownership? It could be
owned by almost anyone, I suppose, these days.
The site was definitely green belt land 10 years ago. Has that changed?
Robin <rbw@outlook.com> wrote:
On 04/10/2023 10:59, Scott wrote:
On Wed, 4 Oct 2023 10:23:46 +0100, JMB99 <mb@nospam.net> wrote:
On 03/10/2023 23:44, J. P. Gilliver wrote:Even better, I think the site at Droitwich could be sold at a massive
And many other _administrative_ savings. I was answering the question of >>>>> _power_. (OK, the power to run the distribution links enters into it, >>>>> but compared to the radiated power, pretty small.)
I suppose it depends on whether the sites would continue to be used for >>>> other services.
If the sites can be closed then there would be huge savings.
profit for housing development.
Does anyone know if Arqiva owns the site outright or occupies it on a
long lease. If the latter, does the BBC retain ownership? It could be
owned by almost anyone, I suppose, these days.
The site was definitely green belt land 10 years ago. Has that changed?
Wasn't there some change in the planning laws recently, that weakened
the status of Green Belts to the point where Councils can now give
planning permission to build on them? ...was it 'fake news' or have I mis-remembered hearing it?
Certainly, around this area, large housing estates are being built on
land that was generally considered sacrosanct (although I cannot swear
it had Green Belt status).
Robin <rbw@outlook.com> wrote:
On 04/10/2023 10:59, Scott wrote:
On Wed, 4 Oct 2023 10:23:46 +0100, JMB99 <mb@nospam.net> wrote:
On 03/10/2023 23:44, J. P. Gilliver wrote:Even better, I think the site at Droitwich could be sold at a massive profit for housing development.
And many other _administrative_ savings. I was answering the question of
_power_. (OK, the power to run the distribution links enters into it, >>> but compared to the radiated power, pretty small.)
I suppose it depends on whether the sites would continue to be used for >> other services.
If the sites can be closed then there would be huge savings.
Does anyone know if Arqiva owns the site outright or occupies it on a long lease. If the latter, does the BBC retain ownership? It could be owned by almost anyone, I suppose, these days.
The site was definitely green belt land 10 years ago. Has that changed?
Wasn't there some change in the planning laws recently, that weakened
the status of Green Belts to the point where Councils can now give
planning permission to build on them? ...was it 'fake news' or have I mis-remembered hearing it?
Certainly, around this area, large housing estates are being built on
land that was generally considered sacrosanct (although I cannot swear
it had Green Belt status).
On Wed, 4 Oct 2023 11:10:20 +0100, liz@poppyrecords.invalid.invalid
(Liz Tuddenham) wrote:
They are gaining on the financial side, but they are losing the ability
to contact people over a wide area in the event of an emergency which
shuts down the internet.
They couldn't contact people on long wave anyway if nobody is
listening. How many people have long wave radios now?
Rod.
On Wed, 4 Oct 2023 11:10:20 +0100, liz@poppyrecords.invalid.invalid
(Liz Tuddenham) wrote:
They are gaining on the financial side, but they are losing the ability
to contact people over a wide area in the event of an emergency which
shuts down the internet.
They couldn't contact people on long wave anyway if nobody is
listening. How many people have long wave radios now?
Rod.
On 04/10/2023 14:02, Roderick Stewart wrote:
On Wed, 4 Oct 2023 11:10:20 +0100, liz@poppyrecords.invalid.invalidI have several, even the audio in my 2020 car has LW.
(Liz Tuddenham) wrote:
They are gaining on the financial side, but they are losing the ability
to contact people over a wide area in the event of an emergency which
shuts down the internet.
They couldn't contact people on long wave anyway if nobody is
listening. How many people have long wave radios now?
Rod.
They couldn't contact people on long wave anyway if nobody is listening.
How many people have long wave radios now?
On 04/10/2023 14:02, Roderick Stewart wrote:
They couldn't contact people on long wave anyway if nobody is
listening. How many people have long wave radios now?
Even Medium Wave radios must be getting rarer.
Even if people can find a MW or LW radio, they quite likely would not
know where to listen or the need to peak the signal on a ferrite rod and probably expect it to work properly indoors.
Mark Carver wrote:
My car had LF and MF removed when the 'ECU' etc received an upgrade at
the first service in 2022.
That's somewhat bizarre, for what reason?
On 04/10/2023 16:52, JMB99 wrote:
On 04/10/2023 14:02, Roderick Stewart wrote:
They couldn't contact people on long wave anyway if nobody is
listening. How many people have long wave radios now?
Even Medium Wave radios must be getting rarer.
Even if people can find a MW or LW radio, they quite likely would not
know where to listen or the need to peak the signal on a ferrite rod and
probably expect it to work properly indoors.
My car had LF and MF removed when the 'ECU' etc received an upgrade at
the first service in 2022.
In another 20 years, I suspect no one will be using a radio of any kind
in the conventional sense.
On Wed, 4 Oct 2023 17:21:53 +0100, Mark Carver
<mark.carver@invalid.invalid> wrote:
On 04/10/2023 16:52, JMB99 wrote:
On 04/10/2023 14:02, Roderick Stewart wrote:
They couldn't contact people on long wave anyway if nobody is
listening. How many people have long wave radios now?
Even Medium Wave radios must be getting rarer.
Even if people can find a MW or LW radio, they quite likely would not
know where to listen or the need to peak the signal on a ferrite rod and >>> probably expect it to work properly indoors.
My car had LF and MF removed when the 'ECU' etc received an upgrade at
the first service in 2022.
This supports my earlier (contested) suggestion that DAB+ could in
theory be added by software upgrade.
In another 20 years, I suspect no one will be using a radio of any kind
in the conventional sense.
How will you listen to the news in the car then? 7G?
On 04/10/2023 17:27, Andy Burns wrote:
Mark Carver wrote:
My car had LF and MF removed when the 'ECU' etc received an upgrade at
the first service in 2022.
That's somewhat bizarre, for what reason?
Well, I'm not 100% sure, but I'd complained that the tyre pressure
warning system was giving erroneous alarms. The main dealer said an
update would cure it, (which it did) but I suspect the upgrade also
elevated the audio/control system to a 2022 version. New 2022 models of
the car (Peg 2008) do not have AM, only FM and DAB (and it looks as if
I've joined the that club too !)
My car had LF and MF removed when the 'ECU' etc received an upgrade at
the first service in 2022.
In another 20 years, I suspect no one will be using a radio of any kind
in the conventional sense.
On 03/10/2023 23:44, J. P. Gilliver wrote:
And many other _administrative_ savings. I was answering the question
of _power_. (OK, the power to run the distribution links enters into
it, but compared to the radiated power, pretty small.)
I suppose it depends on whether the sites would continue to be used for
other services.
If the sites can be closed then there would be huge savings.
List Price for fresh Credit Card (CC,CCV,Ccs)- US (visa/master) = 35$ per 1
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Western Union transfer (WU Transfer) ($/£/â?¬)(EU,UK,Asia,Canada,US,France,Germany,Italy,Nigeria ,.. African)
Price of ATM Card ($/£/€):
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On Wed, 4 Oct 2023 11:10:20 +0100, liz@poppyrecords.invalid.invalid
(Liz Tuddenham) wrote:
They are gaining on the financial side, but they are losing the ability
to contact people over a wide area in the event of an emergency which
shuts down the internet.
They couldn't contact people on long wave anyway if nobody is
listening. How many people have long wave radios now?
On Wed, 4 Oct 2023 17:38:27 +0100, Mark Carver
<mark.carver@invalid.invalid> wrote:
On 04/10/2023 17:27, Andy Burns wrote:
Mark Carver wrote:
My car had LF and MF removed when the 'ECU' etc received an upgrade at >>>> the first service in 2022.
That's somewhat bizarre, for what reason?
Well, I'm not 100% sure, but I'd complained that the tyre pressure
warning system was giving erroneous alarms. The main dealer said an
update would cure it, (which it did) but I suspect the upgrade also
elevated the audio/control system to a 2022 version. New 2022 models of
the car (Peg 2008) do not have AM, only FM and DAB (and it looks as if
I've joined the that club too !)
What about DAB+? Did you have it before and/or after the upgrade?
On 04/10/2023 17:52, Scott wrote:
On Wed, 4 Oct 2023 17:38:27 +0100, Mark Carver
<mark.carver@invalid.invalid> wrote:
On 04/10/2023 17:27, Andy Burns wrote:
Mark Carver wrote:
My car had LF and MF removed when the 'ECU' etc received an upgrade at >>>>> the first service in 2022.
That's somewhat bizarre, for what reason?
Well, I'm not 100% sure, but I'd complained that the tyre pressure
warning system was giving erroneous alarms. The main dealer said an
update would cure it, (which it did) but I suspect the upgrade also
elevated the audio/control system to a 2022 version. New 2022 models of
the car (Peg 2008) do not have AM, only FM and DAB (and it looks as if
I've joined the that club too !)
What about DAB+? Did you have it before and/or after the upgrade?
Yes, all my cars (I have a lease car, so I've had a few) since 2012 have
had DAB+
On Thu, 5 Oct 2023 19:42:07 +0100, Mark Carver
<mark.carver@invalid.invalid> wrote:
On 04/10/2023 17:52, Scott wrote:
On Wed, 4 Oct 2023 17:38:27 +0100, Mark Carver
<mark.carver@invalid.invalid> wrote:
On 04/10/2023 17:27, Andy Burns wrote:
Mark Carver wrote:
My car had LF and MF removed when the 'ECU' etc received an upgrade at >>>>>> the first service in 2022.
That's somewhat bizarre, for what reason?
Well, I'm not 100% sure, but I'd complained that the tyre pressure
warning system was giving erroneous alarms. The main dealer said an
update would cure it, (which it did) but I suspect the upgrade also
elevated the audio/control system to a 2022 version. New 2022 models of >>>> the car (Peg 2008) do not have AM, only FM and DAB (and it looks as if >>>> I've joined the that club too !)
What about DAB+? Did you have it before and/or after the upgrade?
Yes, all my cars (I have a lease car, so I've had a few) since 2012 have
had DAB+
Am I not correct then that there must be very few DAB (no DAB+) radios
in use and therefore little to prevent the BBC switching? Is there any
cost or is it simply a case of resetting the coders?
On Thu, 5 Oct 2023 19:42:07 +0100, Mark Carver
<mark.carver@invalid.invalid> wrote:
On 04/10/2023 17:52, Scott wrote:
On Wed, 4 Oct 2023 17:38:27 +0100, Mark Carver
<mark.carver@invalid.invalid> wrote:
On 04/10/2023 17:27, Andy Burns wrote:
Mark Carver wrote:
My car had LF and MF removed when the 'ECU' etc received an upgrade at >>>>>> the first service in 2022.
That's somewhat bizarre, for what reason?
Well, I'm not 100% sure, but I'd complained that the tyre pressure
warning system was giving erroneous alarms. The main dealer said an
update would cure it, (which it did) but I suspect the upgrade also
elevated the audio/control system to a 2022 version. New 2022 models of >>>> the car (Peg 2008) do not have AM, only FM and DAB (and it looks as if >>>> I've joined the that club too !)
What about DAB+? Did you have it before and/or after the upgrade?
Yes, all my cars (I have a lease car, so I've had a few) since 2012 have
had DAB+
Am I not correct then that there must be very few DAB (no DAB+) radios
in use and therefore little to prevent the BBC switching? Is there any
cost or is it simply a case of resetting the coders?
On 04/10/2023 17:40, Scott wrote:
On Wed, 4 Oct 2023 17:21:53 +0100, Mark Carver
<mark.carver@invalid.invalid> wrote:
On 04/10/2023 16:52, JMB99 wrote:
On 04/10/2023 14:02, Roderick Stewart wrote:
They couldn't contact people on long wave anyway if nobody is
listening. How many people have long wave radios now?
Even Medium Wave radios must be getting rarer.
Even if people can find a MW or LW radio, they quite likely would not
know where to listen or the need to peak the signal on a ferrite rod
and
probably expect it to work properly indoors.
My car had LF and MF removed when the 'ECU' etc received an upgrade at
the first service in 2022.
This supports my earlier (contested) suggestion that DAB+ could in
theory be added by software upgrade.
I'm not sure many of the DAB chipsets are upgradable, (some were,
because there was an upgrade available ISTR)
Even if they are, good luck trying to get the manufacturer of a 20 year
old DAB radio, to write some code, and then pay for the distribution of
the software.
What they will do however, is sell you a nice new DAB+ radio.
On Wed, 4 Oct 2023 17:21:53 +0100, Mark Carver
<mark.carver@invalid.invalid> wrote:
On 04/10/2023 16:52, JMB99 wrote:
On 04/10/2023 14:02, Roderick Stewart wrote:
They couldn't contact people on long wave anyway if nobody is
listening. How many people have long wave radios now?
Even Medium Wave radios must be getting rarer.
Even if people can find a MW or LW radio, they quite likely would not
know where to listen or the need to peak the signal on a ferrite rod and >>> probably expect it to work properly indoors.
My car had LF and MF removed when the 'ECU' etc received an upgrade at
the first service in 2022.
This supports my earlier (contested) suggestion that DAB+ could in
theory be added by software upgrade.
On 05/10/2023 19:57, Scott wrote:
On Thu, 5 Oct 2023 19:42:07 +0100, Mark Carver
<mark.carver@invalid.invalid> wrote:
On 04/10/2023 17:52, Scott wrote:
On Wed, 4 Oct 2023 17:38:27 +0100, Mark Carver
<mark.carver@invalid.invalid> wrote:
On 04/10/2023 17:27, Andy Burns wrote:
Mark Carver wrote:
My car had LF and MF removed when the 'ECU' etc received an upgrade at >>>>>>> the first service in 2022.
That's somewhat bizarre, for what reason?
Well, I'm not 100% sure, but I'd complained that the tyre pressure
warning system was giving erroneous alarms. The main dealer said an
update would cure it, (which it did) but I suspect the upgrade also
elevated the audio/control system to a 2022 version. New 2022 models of >>>>> the car (Peg 2008) do not have AM, only FM and DAB (and it looks as if >>>>> I've joined the that club too !)
What about DAB+? Did you have it before and/or after the upgrade?
Yes, all my cars (I have a lease car, so I've had a few) since 2012 have >>> had DAB+
Am I not correct then that there must be very few DAB (no DAB+) radios
in use and therefore little to prevent the BBC switching? Is there any
cost or is it simply a case of resetting the coders?
I am unclear how that follows.
Leased cars are usually not exported or crushed but sold into the
second-hand market. 30% of the UK car parc is over 12 years old. So a
fair few of Mark's cars from before 2012 will still be on the road.
And I don't know anyone who leases their portable radios or bedside >radio/alarms.
On 05/10/2023 19:57, Scott wrote:
On Thu, 5 Oct 2023 19:42:07 +0100, Mark Carver
<mark.carver@invalid.invalid> wrote:
On 04/10/2023 17:52, Scott wrote:
On Wed, 4 Oct 2023 17:38:27 +0100, Mark Carver
<mark.carver@invalid.invalid> wrote:
On 04/10/2023 17:27, Andy Burns wrote:
Mark Carver wrote:
My car had LF and MF removed when the 'ECU' etc received an upgrade at >>>>>>> the first service in 2022.
That's somewhat bizarre, for what reason?
Well, I'm not 100% sure, but I'd complained that the tyre pressure
warning system was giving erroneous alarms. The main dealer said an
update would cure it, (which it did) but I suspect the upgrade also
elevated the audio/control system to a 2022 version. New 2022 models of >>>>> the car (Peg 2008) do not have AM, only FM and DAB (and it looks as if >>>>> I've joined the that club too !)
What about DAB+? Did you have it before and/or after the upgrade?
Yes, all my cars (I have a lease car, so I've had a few) since 2012 have >>> had DAB+
Am I not correct then that there must be very few DAB (no DAB+) radios
in use and therefore little to prevent the BBC switching? Is there any
cost or is it simply a case of resetting the coders?
Read the Ofcom report I posted up thread, according to that a third of
all DAB receivers in use do not support DAB+
On 04/10/2023 17:40, Scott wrote:
On Wed, 4 Oct 2023 17:21:53 +0100, Mark Carver
<mark.carver@invalid.invalid> wrote:
On 04/10/2023 16:52, JMB99 wrote:
On 04/10/2023 14:02, Roderick Stewart wrote:
They couldn't contact people on long wave anyway if nobody is
listening. How many people have long wave radios now?
Even Medium Wave radios must be getting rarer.
Even if people can find a MW or LW radio, they quite likely would not
know where to listen or the need to peak the signal on a ferrite rod and >>>> probably expect it to work properly indoors.
My car had LF and MF removed when the 'ECU' etc received an upgrade at
the first service in 2022.
This supports my earlier (contested) suggestion that DAB+ could in
theory be added by software upgrade.
I'm not sure many of the DAB chipsets are upgradable, (some were,
because there was an upgrade available ISTR)
Even if they are, good luck trying to get the manufacturer of a 20 year
old DAB radio, to write some code, and then pay for the distribution of
the software.
What they will do however, is sell you a nice new DAB+ radio.
As I pointed out, some of the Pure radios could be upgraded by software.
I think it cost AUD 10.
On Thu, 5 Oct 2023 20:11:09 +0100, Robin <rbw@outlook.com> wrote:
On 05/10/2023 19:57, Scott wrote:
On Thu, 5 Oct 2023 19:42:07 +0100, Mark Carver
<mark.carver@invalid.invalid> wrote:
On 04/10/2023 17:52, Scott wrote:
On Wed, 4 Oct 2023 17:38:27 +0100, Mark Carver
<mark.carver@invalid.invalid> wrote:
On 04/10/2023 17:27, Andy Burns wrote:
Mark Carver wrote:
My car had LF and MF removed when the 'ECU' etc received an upgrade at >>>>>>>> the first service in 2022.
That's somewhat bizarre, for what reason?
Well, I'm not 100% sure, but I'd complained that the tyre pressure >>>>>> warning system was giving erroneous alarms. The main dealer said an >>>>>> update would cure it, (which it did) but I suspect the upgrade also >>>>>> elevated the audio/control system to a 2022 version. New 2022 models of >>>>>> the car (Peg 2008) do not have AM, only FM and DAB (and it looks as if >>>>>> I've joined the that club too !)
What about DAB+? Did you have it before and/or after the upgrade?
Yes, all my cars (I have a lease car, so I've had a few) since 2012 have >>>> had DAB+
Am I not correct then that there must be very few DAB (no DAB+) radios
in use and therefore little to prevent the BBC switching? Is there any
cost or is it simply a case of resetting the coders?
I am unclear how that follows.
Leased cars are usually not exported or crushed but sold into the
second-hand market. 30% of the UK car parc is over 12 years old. So a
fair few of Mark's cars from before 2012 will still be on the road.
How many cars pre-2012 would have DAB? I thought it was slow to take
off for cars.
How many cars pre-2012 would have DAB? I thought it was slow to take
off for cars.
On 05/10/2023 21:58, Scott wrote:
On Thu, 5 Oct 2023 20:11:09 +0100, Robin <rbw@outlook.com> wrote:Slow from 1995. By 2012 around 25% of all new cars had DAB as standard >according to that year's digital radio action plan.
On 05/10/2023 19:57, Scott wrote:
On Thu, 5 Oct 2023 19:42:07 +0100, Mark Carver
<mark.carver@invalid.invalid> wrote:
On 04/10/2023 17:52, Scott wrote:
On Wed, 4 Oct 2023 17:38:27 +0100, Mark Carver
<mark.carver@invalid.invalid> wrote:
On 04/10/2023 17:27, Andy Burns wrote:
Mark Carver wrote:
My car had LF and MF removed when the 'ECU' etc received an upgrade at
the first service in 2022.
That's somewhat bizarre, for what reason?
Well, I'm not 100% sure, but I'd complained that the tyre pressure >>>>>>> warning system was giving erroneous alarms. The main dealer said an >>>>>>> update would cure it, (which it did) but I suspect the upgrade also >>>>>>> elevated the audio/control system to a 2022 version. New 2022 models of >>>>>>> the car (Peg 2008) do not have AM, only FM and DAB (and it looks as if >>>>>>> I've joined the that club too !)
What about DAB+? Did you have it before and/or after the upgrade?
Yes, all my cars (I have a lease car, so I've had a few) since 2012 have >>>>> had DAB+
Am I not correct then that there must be very few DAB (no DAB+) radios >>>> in use and therefore little to prevent the BBC switching? Is there any >>>> cost or is it simply a case of resetting the coders?
I am unclear how that follows.
Leased cars are usually not exported or crushed but sold into the
second-hand market. 30% of the UK car parc is over 12 years old. So a
fair few of Mark's cars from before 2012 will still be on the road.
How many cars pre-2012 would have DAB? I thought it was slow to take
off for cars.
As I pointed out, some of the Pure radios could be upgraded by
software. I think it cost AUD 10.
Not having to radiate any sidebands would save power.
On 05/10/2023 22:43, Brian Gregory wrote:
Not having to radiate any sidebands would save power.
Rather defeats the object of broadcasting if you do not transmit any >modulation?
On 05/10/2023 22:43, Brian Gregory wrote:
Not having to radiate any sidebands would save power.
Rather defeats the object of broadcasting if you do not transmit any modulation?
Ever seen an AM signal on a spectrum analyser?
As the modulation varies in strength the strength of the sidebands
increases and decreases with the loudness of the modulation while the strength of the carrier stays constant.
Not having to radiate any sidebands would save power.
On 05/10/2023 22:01, Scott wrote:
As I pointed out, some of the Pure radios could be upgraded by
software. I think it cost AUD 10.
Australian dollars??
Am I not correct then that there must be very few DAB (no DAB+) radios
in use and therefore little to prevent the BBC switching? Is there any
cost or is it simply a case of resetting the coders?
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