• 1944 proposals for future of television

    From MB@21:1/5 to All on Thu Nov 17 08:04:40 2022
    I came across by chance whilst looking up a report of charming Gestapo Major-General responsible for the murder of most of the crew of the SS
    BELGIAN PRINCE in 1917.


    Belfast News-Letter - Friday 16 June 1944
    RADIO PLANS
    Nationwide Television Envisaged
    The British Institution of Radio Engineers has been studying postwar developments in wireless and television.
    In a report, published to-day, it foresees nationwide television,
    coloured stereoscopic television relayed to cinemas, a big increase in broadcasting by the introduction of short-wave transmission, sound films
    in the home, and increased popularity for home recording of gramophone
    records, which, it Is suggested, may be used in conjunction with the cine-camera, and wireless telephone calls to New York or Calcutta as
    reliable a local call.
    All these developments are, in the opinion of the Institution, dependent
    on State control of the ether, though not a monopoly of radio
    entertainment.

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  • From Brian Gaff@21:1/5 to MB@nospam.net on Thu Nov 17 17:19:11 2022
    Did you know that FM Stereo was not available in New Zealand till the 1970s?
    Brian

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    Note this Signature is meaningless.!
    "MB" <MB@nospam.net> wrote in message news:tl4pup$2k2hr$1@dont-email.me...
    I came across by chance whilst looking up a report of charming Gestapo >Major-General responsible for the murder of most of the crew of the SS >BELGIAN PRINCE in 1917.


    Belfast News-Letter - Friday 16 June 1944
    RADIO PLANS
    Nationwide Television Envisaged
    The British Institution of Radio Engineers has been studying postwar developments in wireless and television.
    In a report, published to-day, it foresees nationwide television, coloured stereoscopic television relayed to cinemas, a big increase in broadcasting
    by the introduction of short-wave transmission, sound films in the home,
    and increased popularity for home recording of gramophone records, which,
    it Is suggested, may be used in conjunction with the cine-camera, and wireless telephone calls to New York or Calcutta as reliable a local call. All these developments are, in the opinion of the Institution, dependent
    on State control of the ether, though not a monopoly of radio
    entertainment.




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  • From Brian Gaff@21:1/5 to MB@nospam.net on Thu Nov 17 17:18:15 2022
    That sounds like a cop out to me.
    How can you know about the effects of something not yet tried, or were they looking across the pond. ahem.
    Brian

    --

    --:
    This newsgroup posting comes to you directly from...
    The Sofa of Brian Gaff...
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    Blind user, so no pictures please
    Note this Signature is meaningless.!
    "MB" <MB@nospam.net> wrote in message news:tl4pup$2k2hr$1@dont-email.me...
    I came across by chance whilst looking up a report of charming Gestapo >Major-General responsible for the murder of most of the crew of the SS >BELGIAN PRINCE in 1917.


    Belfast News-Letter - Friday 16 June 1944
    RADIO PLANS
    Nationwide Television Envisaged
    The British Institution of Radio Engineers has been studying postwar developments in wireless and television.
    In a report, published to-day, it foresees nationwide television, coloured stereoscopic television relayed to cinemas, a big increase in broadcasting
    by the introduction of short-wave transmission, sound films in the home,
    and increased popularity for home recording of gramophone records, which,
    it Is suggested, may be used in conjunction with the cine-camera, and wireless telephone calls to New York or Calcutta as reliable a local call. All these developments are, in the opinion of the Institution, dependent
    on State control of the ether, though not a monopoly of radio
    entertainment.




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  • From MB@21:1/5 to Brian Gaff on Thu Nov 17 20:29:19 2022
    On 17/11/2022 17:19, Brian Gaff wrote:
    Did you know that FM Stereo was not available in New Zealand till the 1970s?
    Brian


    Just after they got inside toilets. :-)

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  • From NY@21:1/5 to Brian Gaff on Fri Nov 18 09:14:42 2022
    "Brian Gaff" <brian1gaff@gmail.com> wrote in message news:tl5qej$2mgu9$1@dont-email.me...
    Did you know that FM Stereo was not available in New Zealand till the
    1970s?

    When did stereo FM (as opposed to mono which started in 1955) begin broadcasting in the UK? Surprisingly https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/FM_broadcasting#Stereo_FM doesn't mention when stereo and RDS each began in the UK.

    The first stereo FM radio I heard was in the late 1970s. I worked in the
    audio visual room at school as my prefect duty in the 6th form and there was
    an FM tuner which was used for recording some educational radio programmes.
    It was quite a revelation to hear the difference between stereo FM on a high-quality tuner, amplifier and speakers with a roof-mounted aerial,
    compared with mono FM on a normal radio and small speaker with a telescopic aerial.


    Ah, finally found something: https://www.bbc.com/historyofthebbc/anniversaries/august/experimental-stereo-broadcasting/ -
    "Radios 1, 2 and 4 went stereo in 1973, with a celebratory Stereo Week." So round about the same time as in New Zealand ;-)

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  • From Mark Carver@21:1/5 to Brian Gaff on Fri Nov 18 09:12:08 2022
    On 17/11/2022 17:19, Brian Gaff wrote:
    Did you know that FM Stereo was not available in New Zealand till the 1970s?
    Rather like large areas of the UK then ?

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  • From Mark Carver@21:1/5 to All on Fri Nov 18 09:27:05 2022
    On 18/11/2022 09:14, NY wrote:
    "Brian Gaff" <brian1gaff@gmail.com> wrote in message news:tl5qej$2mgu9$1@dont-email.me...
    Did you know that FM Stereo was not available in New Zealand till the
    1970s?

    When did stereo FM (as opposed to mono which started in 1955) begin broadcasting in the UK? Surprisingly https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/FM_broadcasting#Stereo_FM doesn't
    mention when stereo and RDS each began in the UK.

    The first stereo FM radio I heard was in the late 1970s. I worked in
    the audio visual room at school as my prefect duty in the 6th form and
    there was an FM tuner which was used for recording some educational
    radio programmes. It was quite a revelation to hear the difference
    between stereo FM on a high-quality tuner, amplifier and speakers with
    a roof-mounted aerial, compared with mono FM on a normal radio and
    small speaker with a telescopic aerial.


    Ah, finally found something: https://www.bbc.com/historyofthebbc/anniversaries/august/experimental-stereo-broadcasting/
    - "Radios 1, 2 and 4 went stereo in 1973, with a celebratory Stereo
    Week." So round about the same time as in New Zealand ;-)

    Third Programme (aka R3) from Wrotham went stereo July 1966

    Extended to R3 Sutton C, and Holme Moss  Summer 68.

    In 1972 the BBC rolled out PCM distribution that allowed R1/2 and 4 to
    go stereo, and expand around the rest of the UK. It was a slow process.

    ILR Radio Clyde in Glasgow launched in stereo in 1973, way before BBC
    stereo reached Kirk'O'Shots.

    Funnitly enough BBC stereo reached Aberdeen the exact same week ILR
    NorthSound launched in 1981

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  • From NY@21:1/5 to Mark Carver on Fri Nov 18 09:57:58 2022
    "Mark Carver" <mark.carver@invalid.invalid> wrote in message news:jtp1f9Fa5rbU3@mid.individual.net...
    Third Programme (aka R3) from Wrotham went stereo July 1966

    Extended to R3 Sutton C, and Holme Moss Summer 68.

    Ah, as early as mid/late 60s for R3. I hadn't realised.

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  • From Mark Carver@21:1/5 to All on Fri Nov 18 10:17:55 2022
    On 18/11/2022 09:57, NY wrote:
    "Mark Carver" <mark.carver@invalid.invalid> wrote in message news:jtp1f9Fa5rbU3@mid.individual.net...
    Third Programme (aka R3) from Wrotham went stereo July 1966

    Extended to R3 Sutton C, and Holme Moss  Summer 68.

    Ah, as early as mid/late 60s for R3. I hadn't realised.

    The BBC were running on air tests of competing systems from the early 60s.

    They settled on the US Zenith system in 1963

    http://downloads.bbc.co.uk/rd/pubs/reports/1963-09.pdf

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  • From Mark Carver@21:1/5 to All on Fri Nov 18 14:59:06 2022
    On 18/11/2022 14:36, MB wrote:
    On 18/11/2022 09:14, NY wrote:
    When did stereo FM (as opposed to mono which started in 1955) begin
    broadcasting in the UK?



    Didn't some VHF FM broadcasting begin experimentally before WWII in
    the US?  But the first commercial licence was issued in 1940. By the
    end of 1941 almost 400,000 VHF FM receivers had been sold.


    It was put at the top end of the then VHF band because no one else
    wanted those frequencies and TV was using the lower VHF frequencies.


    Armstrong's book is quite a good read.

    Going to the top of Mt Washington (in New Hampshire) is a good
    pilgrimage. It was one of the sites used by Armstrong in the 1940s for
    FM test transmissions.

    https://www.fybush.com/site-020206.html

    We went up there a few years ago, on a day with sparkling blue skies,
    and about -20C

    There's an FM station that uses the sit,e WHOM 94.9, you can receive it
    over a hundred miles away, in any direction !

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  • From Max Demian@21:1/5 to All on Fri Nov 18 14:37:19 2022
    On 18/11/2022 09:57, NY wrote:
    "Mark Carver" <mark.carver@invalid.invalid> wrote in message news:jtp1f9Fa5rbU3@mid.individual.net...

    Third Programme (aka R3) from Wrotham went stereo July 1966

    Extended to R3 Sutton C, and Holme Moss  Summer 68.

    Ah, as early as mid/late 60s for R3. I hadn't realised.

    The Third Programme (as it was called then) had a programme called
    Stereo Rock, for people who wanted to listen to "modern" music in stereo.

    --
    Max Demian

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  • From MB@21:1/5 to Max Demian on Fri Nov 18 14:52:54 2022
    On 18/11/2022 14:37, Max Demian wrote:
    The Third Programme (as it was called then) had a programme called
    Stereo Rock, for people who wanted to listen to "modern" music in stereo.


    Wishaw Press - Friday 29 October 1971
    Image © Reach PLC. Image created courtesy of THE BRITISH LIBRARY BOARD.
    STEREO ROCK
    Manfred Mann has begun a new weekly Radio 3 record programme, titled "
    Stereo Rock."
    It is the only pop programme in stereo, and the emphasis is on
    'progressive' music—not just the latest albums, but the whole
    progressive scene of the last four or five years. The programme also
    includes review and record requests.
    Manfred Mann came over from South Africa as a jazz pianist, then became
    widely known as a pop singer. A few years ago he decided to go
    progressive, forming the 'Manfred Mann Chapter 3' group, strongly
    influenced by jazz.

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  • From MB@21:1/5 to All on Fri Nov 18 14:36:22 2022
    On 18/11/2022 09:14, NY wrote:
    When did stereo FM (as opposed to mono which started in 1955) begin broadcasting in the UK?



    Didn't some VHF FM broadcasting begin experimentally before WWII in the
    US? But the first commercial licence was issued in 1940. By the end of
    1941 almost 400,000 VHF FM receivers had been sold.


    It was put at the top end of the then VHF band because no one else
    wanted those frequencies and TV was using the lower VHF frequencies.


    Armstrong's book is quite a good read.

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  • From charles@21:1/5 to Mark Carver on Sat Nov 19 09:27:51 2022
    In article <jtp4eiFa5rbU4@mid.individual.net>,
    Mark Carver <mark.carver@invalid.invalid> wrote:
    On 18/11/2022 09:57, NY wrote:
    "Mark Carver" <mark.carver@invalid.invalid> wrote in message news:jtp1f9Fa5rbU3@mid.individual.net...
    Third Programme (aka R3) from Wrotham went stereo July 1966

    Extended to R3 Sutton C, and Holme Moss Summer 68.

    Ah, as early as mid/late 60s for R3. I hadn't realised.

    The BBC were running on air tests of competing systems from the early 60s.

    They settled on the US Zenith system in 1963

    http://downloads.bbc.co.uk/rd/pubs/reports/1963-09.pdf

    I can remember somme experimental broadcasts when I was it school in the
    1950s

    --
    from KT24 in Surrey, England - sent from my RISC OS 4té
    "I'd rather die of exhaustion than die of boredom" Thomas Carlyle

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  • From Max Demian@21:1/5 to charles on Sat Nov 19 12:00:50 2022
    On 19/11/2022 09:27, charles wrote:
    In article <jtp4eiFa5rbU4@mid.individual.net>,
    Mark Carver <mark.carver@invalid.invalid> wrote:
    On 18/11/2022 09:57, NY wrote:
    "Mark Carver" <mark.carver@invalid.invalid> wrote in message
    news:jtp1f9Fa5rbU3@mid.individual.net...
    Third Programme (aka R3) from Wrotham went stereo July 1966

    Extended to R3 Sutton C, and Holme Moss Summer 68.

    Ah, as early as mid/late 60s for R3. I hadn't realised.

    The BBC were running on air tests of competing systems from the early 60s.

    They settled on the US Zenith system in 1963

    http://downloads.bbc.co.uk/rd/pubs/reports/1963-09.pdf

    I can remember somme experimental broadcasts when I was it school in the 1950s

    What, "real" stereo on FM? Or using the TV sound as one channel and
    radio as the other?

    --
    Max Demian

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  • From charles@21:1/5 to Max Demian on Sat Nov 19 13:53:18 2022
    In article <tlaghh$37e0c$3@dont-email.me>,
    Max Demian <max_demian@bigfoot.com> wrote:
    On 19/11/2022 09:27, charles wrote:
    In article <jtp4eiFa5rbU4@mid.individual.net>,
    Mark Carver <mark.carver@invalid.invalid> wrote:
    On 18/11/2022 09:57, NY wrote:
    "Mark Carver" <mark.carver@invalid.invalid> wrote in message
    news:jtp1f9Fa5rbU3@mid.individual.net...
    Third Programme (aka R3) from Wrotham went stereo July 1966

    Extended to R3 Sutton C, and Holme Moss Summer 68.

    Ah, as early as mid/late 60s for R3. I hadn't realised.

    The BBC were running on air tests of competing systems from the early 60s.

    They settled on the US Zenith system in 1963

    http://downloads.bbc.co.uk/rd/pubs/reports/1963-09.pdf

    I can remember somme experimental broadcasts when I was it school in the 1950s

    What, "real" stereo on FM? Or using the TV sound as one channel and
    radio as the other?

    The second

    --
    from KT24 in Surrey, England - sent from my RISC OS 4té
    "I'd rather die of exhaustion than die of boredom" Thomas Carlyle

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  • From John Williamson@21:1/5 to All on Sat Nov 19 17:02:45 2022
    On 19/11/2022 1
    (*) If 192 kbps MPEG is good enough for purists ;-) Is the sound
    quality of AAC sound on an HD channel significantly better than the MPEG sound on an SD channel? Is it worth watching on HD rather than SD for
    better *sound*?

    128kbps MP3 is better than most modern TV speakers..

    --
    Tciao for Now!

    John.

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  • From NY@21:1/5 to charles on Sat Nov 19 16:32:14 2022
    "charles" <charles@candehope.me.uk> wrote in message news:5a49d0d60bcharles@candehope.me.uk...
    In article <tlaghh$37e0c$3@dont-email.me>,
    Max Demian <max_demian@bigfoot.com> wrote:
    On 19/11/2022 09:27, charles wrote:
    I can remember somme experimental broadcasts when I was it school in
    the
    1950s

    What, "real" stereo on FM? Or using the TV sound as one channel and
    radio as the other?

    The second

    I'd not thought about it until now, but the results of them attempting a
    Radio 3 / BBC 2 simulcast these days would be "amusing", given the
    inevitable time offset between the two channels. At the time of the Queen's funeral, when BBC1 and ITV were both showing identical feeds, there was a
    time offset of a second or so between the two.

    Even worse would be the delay between R3 FM (analogue, so no delay) and R3
    on Freeview or Freesat (digital so an arbitrary buffering/coding/decoding delay).

    I presume TV sound is thought to be "good enough" (*) that there is no
    longer a need to simulcast on radio to get a higher quality of sound.

    Was simulcasting done after NICAM TV sound had been introduced, or was NICAM thought to be a significant improvement over mono FM sound so simulcasting
    was no longer necessary. What was the typical delay between FM and NICAM
    sound on the same channel - how "nearly instantaneous" was it? When I tried with a TV on FM sound and another using NICAM sound, I wasn't aware of any delay of one wrt the other, so it was pretty damn good.


    (*) If 192 kbps MPEG is good enough for purists ;-) Is the sound quality of AAC sound on an HD channel significantly better than the MPEG sound on an SD channel? Is it worth watching on HD rather than SD for better *sound*?

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
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  • From Max Demian@21:1/5 to All on Sat Nov 19 18:09:47 2022
    On 19/11/2022 16:32, NY wrote:
    "charles" <charles@candehope.me.uk> wrote in message news:5a49d0d60bcharles@candehope.me.uk...
    In article <tlaghh$37e0c$3@dont-email.me>,
      Max Demian <max_demian@bigfoot.com> wrote:
    On 19/11/2022 09:27, charles wrote:
    I can remember somme experimental broadcasts when I was it school
    in > the
    1950s

    What, "real" stereo on FM? Or using the TV sound as one channel and
    radio as the other?

    The second

    I'd not thought about it until now, but the results of them attempting a Radio 3 / BBC 2 simulcast these days would be "amusing", given the
    inevitable time offset between the two channels. At the time of the
    Queen's funeral, when BBC1 and ITV were both showing identical feeds,
    there was a time offset of a second or so between the two.

    Even worse would be the delay between R3 FM (analogue, so no delay) and
    R3 on Freeview or Freesat (digital so an arbitrary
    buffering/coding/decoding delay).

    I presume TV sound is thought to be "good enough" (*) that there is no
    longer a need to simulcast on radio to get a higher quality of sound.

    Was simulcasting done after NICAM TV sound had been introduced, or was
    NICAM thought to be a significant improvement over mono FM sound so simulcasting was no longer necessary. What was the typical delay between
    FM and NICAM sound on the same channel - how "nearly instantaneous" was
    it? When I tried with a TV on FM sound and another using NICAM sound, I wasn't aware of any delay of one wrt the other, so it was pretty damn good.

    I think that simulcasting continued for several years after NICAM,
    presumably for people with non-NICAM equipment.

    In 1988 I bought a non-NICAM VCR with simulcast recording capability.
    Then in 1990 or 1991 I bought a NICAM VCR which also allowed simulcast recording. Perhaps NICAM wasn't available from all transmitters.

    Both VCRs allowed recording of sound from an external source, with or
    without the picture.

    --
    Max Demian

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  • From NY@21:1/5 to Max Demian on Sat Nov 19 22:25:16 2022
    On 19/11/2022 18:09, Max Demian wrote:
    In 1988 I bought a non-NICAM VCR with simulcast recording capability.
    Then in 1990 or 1991 I bought a NICAM VCR which also allowed simulcast recording. Perhaps NICAM wasn't available from all transmitters.

    Both VCRs allowed recording of sound from an external source, with or
    without the picture.

    I'm surprised more VHS VCRs didn't offer the ability to record video
    from the built-in tuner and sound from an external source such as a
    radio, for simulcasts. When did VHS machines start recording sound to a
    hifi track embedded in the video tracks in addition to recording it to
    the linear track? I assumed that hifi sound was introduced at the same
    time as a NICAM decoder, but with the ability to record from a baseband
    source (external sound and video tuner) hifi didn't need to wait until
    NICAM.

    I've still got my NICAM VHS recorder - now used only for playing old
    tapes and copying them to MPEG files via an analogue capture card. I
    remember the "fun" I had when a tape got mangled up inside and shed some
    oxide onto the video heads. Dabbing IPA (not the beer!) with a lint-free spectacles cleaning cloth onto the head got video playback restored
    fairly quickly, but it took a lot of cleaning to get hifi sound to play
    without dropouts.

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  • From Max Demian@21:1/5 to Roderick Stewart on Sun Nov 20 11:36:23 2022
    On 20/11/2022 11:19, Roderick Stewart wrote:
    On Sat, 19 Nov 2022 16:32:14 -0000, "NY" <me@privacy.invalid> wrote:

    I presume TV sound is thought to be "good enough" (*) that there is no
    longer a need to simulcast on radio to get a higher quality of sound.

    As far as I can recall, simulcasting was only done with TV broadcasts
    that were thought to benefit from stereo sound, typically the Proms.
    The quality of the FM sound channel for a normal TV transmission could
    be very good, but it was only in mono.

    Actually there used to be simulcasts between Capital Radio and, I think, Channel 4, for "pop" concerts.

    --
    Max Demian

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  • From Roderick Stewart@21:1/5 to me@privacy.invalid on Sun Nov 20 11:19:49 2022
    On Sat, 19 Nov 2022 16:32:14 -0000, "NY" <me@privacy.invalid> wrote:

    I presume TV sound is thought to be "good enough" (*) that there is no
    longer a need to simulcast on radio to get a higher quality of sound.

    As far as I can recall, simulcasting was only done with TV broadcasts
    that were thought to benefit from stereo sound, typically the Proms.
    The quality of the FM sound channel for a normal TV transmission could
    be very good, but it was only in mono.

    Was simulcasting done after NICAM TV sound had been introduced, or was NICAM >thought to be a significant improvement over mono FM sound so simulcasting >was no longer necessary. What was the typical delay between FM and NICAM >sound on the same channel - how "nearly instantaneous" was it? When I tried >with a TV on FM sound and another using NICAM sound, I wasn't aware of any >delay of one wrt the other, so it was pretty damn good.

    I had a receiver that could be switched between FM and NICAM, and I
    could never hear any delay between them. With a mono broadcast, or
    with the NICAM decoder switched to mono, the only difference I could
    hear was a slight increase in background hiss on FM. I thought NICAM
    was pretty damn good too.

    Rod.

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  • From Roderick Stewart@21:1/5 to me@privacy.net on Sun Nov 20 11:25:23 2022
    On Sat, 19 Nov 2022 22:25:16 +0000, NY <me@privacy.net> wrote:

    I'm surprised more VHS VCRs didn't offer the ability to record video
    from the built-in tuner and sound from an external source such as a
    radio, for simulcasts.

    When I bought my first VHS machine, I chose one with this facility for
    exactly that purpose. It also offered manual setting of the audio
    recording level. They didn't all have these things, which inevitably
    made the few that did have them more expensive.

    Rod.

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  • From Paul Ratcliffe@21:1/5 to rjfs@escapetime.myzen.co.uk on Sun Nov 20 12:53:22 2022
    On Sun, 20 Nov 2022 11:19:49 +0000, Roderick Stewart <rjfs@escapetime.myzen.co.uk> wrote:

    As far as I can recall, simulcasting was only done with TV broadcasts
    that were thought to benefit from stereo sound, typically the Proms.
    The quality of the FM sound channel for a normal TV transmission could
    be very good, but it was only in mono.

    So if you just listened to the TV sound, you would get either left or
    right. And vice-versa for the radio sound.
    Must have been weird for those who didn't have the capability to rig
    up the appropriate stereo setup, which would've been mostly everybody.
    I wonder how this got past the common-sense filter of the time.

    I remember this happening a few times when I was a kid, but can't
    remember now whether we ever tried it.

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  • From Paul Ratcliffe@21:1/5 to me@privacy.invalid on Sun Nov 20 12:46:49 2022
    On Sat, 19 Nov 2022 16:32:14 -0000, NY <me@privacy.invalid> wrote:

    Even worse would be the delay between R3 FM (analogue, so no delay)

    But distributed digitally, so some delay.

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
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  • From Max Demian@21:1/5 to Paul Ratcliffe on Sun Nov 20 17:08:08 2022
    On 20/11/2022 12:53, Paul Ratcliffe wrote:
    On Sun, 20 Nov 2022 11:19:49 +0000, Roderick Stewart <rjfs@escapetime.myzen.co.uk> wrote:

    As far as I can recall, simulcasting was only done with TV broadcasts
    that were thought to benefit from stereo sound, typically the Proms.
    The quality of the FM sound channel for a normal TV transmission could
    be very good, but it was only in mono.

    So if you just listened to the TV sound, you would get either left or
    right. And vice-versa for the radio sound.
    Must have been weird for those who didn't have the capability to rig
    up the appropriate stereo setup, which would've been mostly everybody.
    I wonder how this got past the common-sense filter of the time.

    That's not how it worked at all. TV sound was FM mono. Radio sound was
    FM stereo. For a simulcast the radio FM stereo was recorded onto the
    "Hi-Fi audio" track (sub carriers on the video). It was also put onto
    the VHS linear tracks - in mono - I don't think there was any attempt to
    split them for stereo, but I do have some pre-recorded tapes which claim
    to have Dolby B on the linear tracks.

    --
    Max Demian

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
    * Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)
  • From MB@21:1/5 to Max Demian on Sun Nov 20 19:10:55 2022
    On 20/11/2022 17:08, Max Demian wrote:
    That's not how it worked at all. TV sound was FM mono. Radio sound was
    FM stereo. For a simulcast the radio FM stereo was recorded onto the
    "Hi-Fi audio" track (sub carriers on the video). It was also put onto
    the VHS linear tracks - in mono - I don't think there was any attempt to split them for stereo, but I do have some pre-recorded tapes which claim
    to have Dolby B on the linear tracks.


    The Saturday morning stereo transmissions using radio and TV started on
    18th October 1958, TV sound was AM at that time.

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
    * Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)
  • From charles@21:1/5 to MB@nospam.net on Sun Nov 20 20:30:20 2022
    In article <tldu3v$3ispc$1@dont-email.me>,
    MB <MB@nospam.net> wrote:
    On 20/11/2022 17:08, Max Demian wrote:
    That's not how it worked at all. TV sound was FM mono. Radio sound was
    FM stereo. For a simulcast the radio FM stereo was recorded onto the
    "Hi-Fi audio" track (sub carriers on the video). It was also put onto
    the VHS linear tracks - in mono - I don't think there was any attempt to split them for stereo, but I do have some pre-recorded tapes which claim
    to have Dolby B on the linear tracks.


    The Saturday morning stereo transmissions using radio and TV started on
    18th October 1958, TV sound was AM at that time.

    my last trm at school!

    --
    from KT24 in Surrey, England - sent from my RISC OS 4té
    "I'd rather die of exhaustion than die of boredom" Thomas Carlyle

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
    * Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)
  • From NY@21:1/5 to me@privacy.invalid on Mon Nov 21 09:45:45 2022
    "NY" <me@privacy.invalid> wrote in message
    news:tlfg1d$3pbie$1@dont-email.me...
    "Paul Ratcliffe" <abuse@orac12.clara34.co56.uk78> wrote in message news:slrntnk8q1.hlk.abuse@news.pr.network...
    On Sun, 20 Nov 2022 11:19:49 +0000, Roderick Stewart
    <rjfs@escapetime.myzen.co.uk> wrote:

    As far as I can recall, simulcasting was only done with TV broadcasts
    that were thought to benefit from stereo sound, typically the Proms.
    The quality of the FM sound channel for a normal TV transmission could
    be very good, but it was only in mono.

    So if you just listened to the TV sound, you would get either left or
    right. And vice-versa for the radio sound.
    Must have been weird for those who didn't have the capability to rig
    up the appropriate stereo setup, which would've been mostly everybody.
    I wonder how this got past the common-sense filter of the time.

    When did the policy for simulcasts change from L channel on TV and R
    channel on FM radio (or vice versa), to L+R on TV and L/R channels on
    stereo FM radio? Did the change happen at the same time that FM radio
    began broadcasting in stereo?

    Was the main advantage of simulcasting deemed to be stereo, or to be the greater sound quality of the amplifier and speakers on a good FM radio compared with the mediocre ones in a TV?


    Another couple of questions...

    Before NICAM was developed, had there been any development work done on pilot-tone stereo, as for FM radio? Or was there insufficient bandwidth
    between one UHF channel and the next to allow room for the additional L-R signal modulated on sound_carrier+38 kHz?

    Did VHS recorders always use the NICAM signal (in L+R form) for the linear (mono) soundtrack on the tape, or did they record NICAM to the hifi track
    and FM sound to the linear track?

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
    * Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)
  • From NY@21:1/5 to Paul Ratcliffe on Mon Nov 21 09:22:57 2022
    "Paul Ratcliffe" <abuse@orac12.clara34.co56.uk78> wrote in message news:slrntnk8q1.hlk.abuse@news.pr.network...
    On Sun, 20 Nov 2022 11:19:49 +0000, Roderick Stewart <rjfs@escapetime.myzen.co.uk> wrote:

    As far as I can recall, simulcasting was only done with TV broadcasts
    that were thought to benefit from stereo sound, typically the Proms.
    The quality of the FM sound channel for a normal TV transmission could
    be very good, but it was only in mono.

    So if you just listened to the TV sound, you would get either left or
    right. And vice-versa for the radio sound.
    Must have been weird for those who didn't have the capability to rig
    up the appropriate stereo setup, which would've been mostly everybody.
    I wonder how this got past the common-sense filter of the time.

    When did the policy for simulcasts change from L channel on TV and R channel
    on FM radio (or vice versa), to L+R on TV and L/R channels on stereo FM
    radio? Did the change happen at the same time that FM radio began
    broadcasting in stereo?

    Was the main advantage of simulcasting deemed to be stereo, or to be the greater sound quality of the amplifier and speakers on a good FM radio
    compared with the mediocre ones in a TV?

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
    * Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)
  • From Roderick Stewart@21:1/5 to MB@nospam.net on Mon Nov 21 10:06:45 2022
    On Sun, 20 Nov 2022 19:10:55 +0000, MB <MB@nospam.net> wrote:

    On 20/11/2022 17:08, Max Demian wrote:
    That's not how it worked at all. TV sound was FM mono. Radio sound was
    FM stereo. For a simulcast the radio FM stereo was recorded onto the
    "Hi-Fi audio" track (sub carriers on the video). It was also put onto
    the VHS linear tracks - in mono - I don't think there was any attempt to
    split them for stereo, but I do have some pre-recorded tapes which claim
    to have Dolby B on the linear tracks.


    The Saturday morning stereo transmissions using radio and TV started on
    18th October 1958, TV sound was AM at that time.

    And FM radio was mono.

    The BBC Third Programme transmitted its channel of the stereo pair on
    both FM Band 2 and AM medium wave, and BBC Televison transmitted the
    other stereo channel on its AM sound channel. I can't remember which
    was left and which was right, or what was on the TV screen at the
    time, though probably an explanatory caption.

    Rod.

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
    * Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)
  • From Roderick Stewart@21:1/5 to me@privacy.invalid on Mon Nov 21 10:20:56 2022
    On Mon, 21 Nov 2022 09:22:57 -0000, "NY" <me@privacy.invalid> wrote:

    When did the policy for simulcasts change from L channel on TV and R channel >on FM radio (or vice versa), to L+R on TV and L/R channels on stereo FM >radio? Did the change happen at the same time that FM radio began >broadcasting in stereo?

    The two stereo channels being broadcast on radio and television was an experimental system, only used out of normal broadcasting hours,
    Saturday mornings as I recall. It was never intended to be the way a
    "proper" stereo service would work, but just to assess how stereo
    programme material might work in a domestic setting.

    The policy for stereo broadcasting was much the same as for colour
    television, that a proper service would have to use the existing
    transmission system and would not require the viewers or listeners to
    invest in new equipment if they didn't want it.

    Rod.

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
    * Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)
  • From Mark Carver@21:1/5 to All on Mon Nov 21 10:26:04 2022
    On 21/11/2022 09:45, NY wrote:
    "NY" <me@privacy.invalid> wrote in message news:tlfg1d$3pbie$1@dont-email.me...
    "Paul Ratcliffe" <abuse@orac12.clara34.co56.uk78> wrote in message
    news:slrntnk8q1.hlk.abuse@news.pr.network...
    On Sun, 20 Nov 2022 11:19:49 +0000, Roderick Stewart
    <rjfs@escapetime.myzen.co.uk> wrote:

    As far as I can recall, simulcasting was only done with TV broadcasts
    that were thought to benefit from stereo sound, typically the Proms.
    The quality of the FM sound channel for a normal TV transmission could >>>> be very good, but it was only in mono.

    So if you just listened to the TV sound, you would get either left or
    right. And vice-versa for the radio sound.
    Must have been weird for those who didn't have the capability to rig
    up the appropriate stereo setup, which would've been mostly everybody.
    I wonder how this got past the common-sense filter of the time.

    When did the policy for simulcasts change from L channel on TV and R
    channel on FM radio (or vice versa), to L+R on TV and L/R channels on
    stereo FM radio? Did the change happen at the same time that FM radio
    began broadcasting in stereo?

    Was the main advantage of simulcasting deemed to be stereo, or to be
    the greater sound quality of the amplifier and speakers on a good FM
    radio compared with the mediocre ones in a TV?


    Another couple of questions...

    Before NICAM was developed, had there been any development work done
    on pilot-tone stereo, as for FM radio? Or was there insufficient
    bandwidth between one UHF channel and the next to allow room for the additional L-R signal modulated on sound_carrier+38 kHz?

    There was a god awful analogue stereo TV sound system used  by Germany, Zweikanalton

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Zweikanalton


    Did VHS recorders always use the NICAM signal (in L+R form) for the
    linear (mono) soundtrack on the tape, or did they record NICAM to the
    hifi track and FM sound to the linear track?

    It varied. Some were fixed, if a NICAM carrier was present then both
    linear and HiFi tracks were fed from it.

    It caught out the IBA when they started NICAM tests, using different
    material (notably 440 Hz tone !) on the NICAM carrier

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
    * Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)
  • From Mark Carver@21:1/5 to All on Mon Nov 21 10:28:41 2022
    On 21/11/2022 09:22, NY wrote:
    "Paul Ratcliffe" <abuse@orac12.clara34.co56.uk78> wrote in message news:slrntnk8q1.hlk.abuse@news.pr.network...
    On Sun, 20 Nov 2022 11:19:49 +0000, Roderick Stewart
    <rjfs@escapetime.myzen.co.uk> wrote:

    As far as I can recall, simulcasting was only done with TV broadcasts
    that were thought to benefit from stereo sound, typically the Proms.
    The quality of the FM sound channel for a normal TV transmission could
    be very good, but it was only in mono.

    So if you just listened to the TV sound, you would get either left or
    right. And vice-versa for the radio sound.
    Must have been weird for those who didn't have the capability to rig
    up the appropriate stereo setup, which would've been mostly everybody.
    I wonder how this got past the common-sense filter of the time.

    When did the policy for simulcasts change from L channel on TV and R
    channel on FM radio (or vice versa), to L+R on TV and L/R channels on
    stereo FM radio? Did the change happen at the same time that FM radio
    began broadcasting in stereo?

    Using the TV sound/ FM mono radio for stereo was an appalling bodge.
    It must have sounded crap, the two tx paths were totally unmatched in
    terms of eq and phase.


    Was the main advantage of simulcasting deemed to be stereo, or to be
    the greater sound quality of the amplifier and speakers on a good FM
    radio compared with the mediocre ones in a TV?

    Yes.

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
    * Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)
  • From Mark Carver@21:1/5 to All on Mon Nov 21 11:53:27 2022
    On 21/11/2022 11:16, NY wrote:
    "Mark Carver" <mark.carver@invalid.invalid> wrote in message news:ju126oFhokvU2@mid.individual.net...
    Using the TV sound/ FM mono radio for stereo was an appalling bodge.
    It must have sounded crap, the two tx paths were totally unmatched in
    terms of eq and phase.

    Maybe TV sound and radio sound for simulcasts were deliberately fed
    through
    a common audio chain as far as possible between mixing desk and
    transmitters, to avoid obvious mismatches. Can't do anything about
    different
    bandwidths and therefore different frequency responses (for AM TV
    sound on
    405-line TV). Presumably the matching between FM TV sound (625-line)
    and FM
    radio would have been much better.

    How on earth would you phase match left and right channels ?  That's why stereo matched pair landlines were so hideously expensive, and often prohibitavly expensive for OBs

    And anyway, the TV amp and loudspeaker and radio amp and loudspeaker
    were totally different !

    Was the sound mix for TV sound and Radio 3 sound the same (apart from TV sound being an equal mix of L and R) or did radio use a different mix
    of the
    available microphones at the concert being broadcast?

    I remember someone suggesting that the TV sound mix tended to favour whichever instrument was being shown at the time, which sounds
    implausible
    because it means the sound mix was constantly changing depending on which camera's shot was being used at the instant.

    Yes, I think TV and radio sound mixes where different. I recall the
    audio operators for both mentioned in the credits

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
    * Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)
  • From John Williamson@21:1/5 to All on Mon Nov 21 11:51:39 2022
    On 21/11/2022 11:16, NY wrote:

    I remember someone suggesting that the TV sound mix tended to favour whichever instrument was being shown at the time, which sounds implausible because it means the sound mix was constantly changing depending on which camera's shot was being used at the instant.

    From what I remember, if it was a solo, then that was, and still is,
    tweaked slightly, but not in a way directly connected to the camera in
    use, though the soloist would also normally be shown on screen while
    they were being featured. This would not necessarily sound strange on
    the radio.

    I have seen it done at modern classical concerts, where the soloist
    steps up to a spot mic, or with a larger instrument, there is a spot mic
    near or on the instrument.

    --
    Tciao for Now!

    John.

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
    * Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)
  • From NY@21:1/5 to Mark Carver on Mon Nov 21 11:16:48 2022
    "Mark Carver" <mark.carver@invalid.invalid> wrote in message news:ju126oFhokvU2@mid.individual.net...
    Using the TV sound/ FM mono radio for stereo was an appalling bodge.
    It must have sounded crap, the two tx paths were totally unmatched in
    terms of eq and phase.

    Maybe TV sound and radio sound for simulcasts were deliberately fed through
    a common audio chain as far as possible between mixing desk and
    transmitters, to avoid obvious mismatches. Can't do anything about different bandwidths and therefore different frequency responses (for AM TV sound on 405-line TV). Presumably the matching between FM TV sound (625-line) and FM radio would have been much better.


    Was the main advantage of simulcasting deemed to be stereo, or to be the
    greater sound quality of the amplifier and speakers on a good FM radio
    compared with the mediocre ones in a TV?

    Yes.

    I was asking which of the two benefits of simulcasting (stereo or better
    sound quality) was seen as being the more important. Maybe your answer of
    "yes" implies that both benefits were regarded as equally important.



    Was the sound mix for TV sound and Radio 3 sound the same (apart from TV
    sound being an equal mix of L and R) or did radio use a different mix of the available microphones at the concert being broadcast?

    I remember someone suggesting that the TV sound mix tended to favour
    whichever instrument was being shown at the time, which sounds implausible because it means the sound mix was constantly changing depending on which camera's shot was being used at the instant.

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
    * Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)
  • From MB@21:1/5 to Mark Carver on Mon Nov 21 12:48:06 2022
    On 21/11/2022 10:28, Mark Carver wrote:
    Using the TV sound/ FM mono radio for stereo was an appalling bodge.
    It must have sounded crap, the two tx paths were totally unmatched in
    terms of eq and phase.


    Just think what it must have been like using 2LO and 5XX!

    I think the TV Sound + VHF FM was just a cheap way to demonstrate
    stereo, get some studio experience and comments from listeners. I don't
    think the Third Programme and TV were broadcsting on a Saturday morning
    then.

    I don't think it was ever considered a long term solution.

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
    * Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)
  • From MB@21:1/5 to charles on Mon Nov 21 13:05:05 2022
    On 21/11/2022 12:26, charles wrote:
    These were demonstrations of Stereo sound. Nothingb to do with Simulacasts. The ones I heard took place on Saturday mornings. Outsside tv broadcast hours. I had a tuner which would pick up tv sound, so no idea about what picture was presented. Probably just a caption


    I suspect that at that time, many would not have a stereo record player
    so might never have heard stereo sound.

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
    * Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)
  • From charles@21:1/5 to Roderick Stewart on Mon Nov 21 12:26:59 2022
    In article <qrimnh1ho98nh97h5fvfjkivcch0dot645@4ax.com>,
    Roderick Stewart <rjfs@escapetime.myzen.co.uk> wrote:
    On Sun, 20 Nov 2022 19:10:55 +0000, MB <MB@nospam.net> wrote:

    On 20/11/2022 17:08, Max Demian wrote:
    That's not how it worked at all. TV sound was FM mono. Radio sound was
    FM stereo. For a simulcast the radio FM stereo was recorded onto the
    "Hi-Fi audio" track (sub carriers on the video). It was also put onto
    the VHS linear tracks - in mono - I don't think there was any attempt to >> split them for stereo, but I do have some pre-recorded tapes which claim >> to have Dolby B on the linear tracks.


    The Saturday morning stereo transmissions using radio and TV started on >18th October 1958, TV sound was AM at that time.

    And FM radio was mono.

    The BBC Third Programme transmitted its channel of the stereo pair on
    both FM Band 2 and AM medium wave, and BBC Televison transmitted the
    other stereo channel on its AM sound channel. I can't remember which
    was left and which was right, or what was on the TV screen at the
    time, though probably an explanatory caption.

    These were demonstrations of Stereo sound. Nothingb to do with Simulacasts.
    The ones I heard took place on Saturday mornings. Outsside tv broadcast
    hours. I had a tuner which would pick up tv sound, so no idea about what picture was presented. Probably just a caption

    --
    from KT24 in Surrey, England - sent from my RISC OS 4té
    "I'd rather die of exhaustion than die of boredom" Thomas Carlyle

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
    * Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)
  • From charles@21:1/5 to John Williamson on Mon Nov 21 13:51:44 2022
    In article <ju172cFihb2U1@mid.individual.net>,
    John Williamson <johnwilliamson@btinternet.com> wrote:
    On 21/11/2022 11:16, NY wrote:

    I remember someone suggesting that the TV sound mix tended to favour whichever instrument was being shown at the time, which sounds
    implausible because it means the sound mix was constantly changing depending on which camera's shot was being used at the instant.

    From what I remember, if it was a solo, then that was, and still is,
    tweaked slightly, but not in a way directly connected to the camera in
    use, though the soloist would also normally be shown on screen while
    they were being featured. This would not necessarily sound strange on
    the radio.

    as far I know, BBC R3 and TV each make their own sound mixes. so,
    emphasising a soloist on tv would not affect a radio audience.

    --
    from KT24 in Surrey, England - sent from my RISC OS 4té
    "I'd rather die of exhaustion than die of boredom" Thomas Carlyle

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
    * Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)
  • From Liz Tuddenham@21:1/5 to Mark Carver on Mon Nov 21 18:34:30 2022
    Mark Carver <mark.carver@invalid.invalid> wrote:

    ...
    And anyway, the TV amp and loudspeaker and radio amp and loudspeaker
    were totally different !

    With some television sets you were lucky if you got a proper sound
    output pentode; some used a low power RF pentode, such as an EF80, as
    the sound output valve. At least most radio sets didn't sink that low.

    --
    ~ Liz Tuddenham ~
    (Remove the ".invalid"s and add ".co.uk" to reply)
    www.poppyrecords.co.uk

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
    * Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)
  • From Roderick Stewart@21:1/5 to MB@nospam.net on Mon Nov 21 18:44:34 2022
    On Mon, 21 Nov 2022 13:05:05 +0000, MB <MB@nospam.net> wrote:

    On 21/11/2022 12:26, charles wrote:
    These were demonstrations of Stereo sound. Nothingb to do with Simulacasts. >> The ones I heard took place on Saturday mornings. Outsside tv broadcast
    hours. I had a tuner which would pick up tv sound, so no idea about what
    picture was presented. Probably just a caption


    I suspect that at that time, many would not have a stereo record player
    so might never have heard stereo sound.

    My first experience of stereo was visiting a school friend whose older
    brother had built a system, and I was so impressed that I decided I
    had to build one too. But a whole system would be very expensive, so
    my first experiment was to spend my pocket money on a stereo pickup
    cartridge and make a pickup arm out of Meccano which I could attach
    temporarily to my sister's BSR autochange record player. For listening
    I rewired some aircraft headphones that I had for radio listening so
    that each headphone was connected separately, and I then built a pair
    of small amplifiers to drive them. I doubt that many people would have
    gone to this amount of trouble, so you're probably correct that most
    would never have heard stereo. But once you've heard it you never want
    to go back, and the rest is history...

    Rod.

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
    * Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)
  • From Roderick Stewart@21:1/5 to me@privacy.invalid on Mon Nov 21 19:06:58 2022
    On Mon, 21 Nov 2022 11:16:48 -0000, "NY" <me@privacy.invalid> wrote:

    I remember someone suggesting that the TV sound mix tended to favour >whichever instrument was being shown at the time, which sounds implausible >because it means the sound mix was constantly changing depending on which >camera's shot was being used at the instant.

    I think they fairly quickly learned not to, because it sounds awful.
    TV and radio made their own mixes of concerts, but my own
    recollections of comparing the two was that the TV mix would bring the
    soloists a bit more forward, but that they wouldn't attempt to mess
    with the stereo positioning. It certainly didn't change with the
    shots. For drama, it's usual to put all the dialogue in the centre,
    unless it's actually off screen, which is rare, and only give spot
    effects a definite position if they match something seen, otherwise
    using the stereo effect simply to give the background 'atmos' effect a
    more spread out feel. Some widescreen movies will pan the dialogue if
    somebody moves across the screen while speaking, but it sounds very distracting, particularly if you're watching on a TV set, even one
    with a big screen. Dialogue is normally recorded on a single track
    anyway, as close-miked as possible, because this is what gives the
    most flexibility in the mix. Most of what you hear on a 'stereo' movie
    or TV drama isn't actually stereo at all, and much better for it.

    Rod.

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
    * Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)
  • From jon@21:1/5 to All on Tue Nov 22 14:28:04 2022
    On Fri, 18 Nov 2022 09:14:42 +0000, NY wrote:

    "Brian Gaff" <brian1gaff@gmail.com> wrote in message news:tl5qej$2mgu9$1@dont-email.me...
    Did you know that FM Stereo was not available in New Zealand till the
    1970s?

    When did stereo FM (as opposed to mono which started in 1955) begin broadcasting in the UK? Surprisingly https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/FM_broadcasting#Stereo_FM doesn't mention
    when stereo and RDS each began in the UK.

    The first stereo FM radio I heard was in the late 1970s. I worked in the audio visual room at school as my prefect duty in the 6th form and there
    was an FM tuner which was used for recording some educational radio programmes.
    It was quite a revelation to hear the difference between stereo FM on a high-quality tuner, amplifier and speakers with a roof-mounted aerial, compared with mono FM on a normal radio and small speaker with a
    telescopic aerial.


    Ah, finally found something: https://www.bbc.com/historyofthebbc/anniversaries/august/experimental-
    stereo-broadcasting/
    -
    "Radios 1, 2 and 4 went stereo in 1973, with a celebratory Stereo Week."
    So round about the same time as in New Zealand ;-)

    I still have a Tandberg TR1010 stereo receiver I used in the early '70s to listen to music in stereo.

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
    * Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)
  • From Chris Youlden@21:1/5 to Mark Carver on Tue Nov 22 14:52:33 2022
    On 21/11/2022 10:28, Mark Carver wrote:
    On 21/11/2022 09:22, NY wrote:
    "Paul Ratcliffe" <abuse@orac12.clara34.co56.uk78> wrote in message
    news:slrntnk8q1.hlk.abuse@news.pr.network...
    On Sun, 20 Nov 2022 11:19:49 +0000, Roderick Stewart
    <rjfs@escapetime.myzen.co.uk> wrote:

    As far as I can recall, simulcasting was only done with TV broadcasts
    that were thought to benefit from stereo sound, typically the Proms.
    The quality of the FM sound channel for a normal TV transmission could >>>> be very good, but it was only in mono.

    So if you just listened to the TV sound, you would get either left or
    right. And vice-versa for the radio sound.
    Must have been weird for those who didn't have the capability to rig
    up the appropriate stereo setup, which would've been mostly everybody.
    I wonder how this got past the common-sense filter of the time.

    When did the policy for simulcasts change from L channel on TV and R
    channel on FM radio (or vice versa), to L+R on TV and L/R channels on
    stereo FM radio? Did the change happen at the same time that FM radio
    began broadcasting in stereo?

    Using the TV sound/ FM mono radio for stereo was an appalling bodge.
    It must have sounded crap, the two tx paths were totally unmatched in
    terms of eq and phase.


    I remember having a listen at the time, only once as it wasn't
    impressive. And my Mum wasn't amused as I had to wheel the radiogram
    from the lounge to the sitting room where the telly was.

    I suppose you would hear a sort of mono signal maybe slightly out of
    phase and some sources might be displaced. You would get a stereo image
    though not the right one!

    --

    Chris

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
    * Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)
  • From Dave W@21:1/5 to All on Wed Nov 23 17:01:37 2022
    T24gU3VuLCAyMCBOb3YgMjAyMiAxOToxMDo1NSArMDAwMCwgTUIgPE1CQG5vc3BhbS5uZXQ+IHdy b3RlOg0KDQo+T24gMjAvMTEvMjAyMiAxNzowOCwgTWF4IERlbWlhbiB3cm90ZToNCj4+IFRoYXQn cyBub3QgaG93IGl0IHdvcmtlZCBhdCBhbGwuIFRWIHNvdW5kIHdhcyBGTSBtb25vLiBSYWRpbyBz b3VuZCB3YXMNCj4+IEZNIHN0ZXJlby4gRm9yIGEgc2ltdWxjYXN0IHRoZSByYWRpbyBGTSBzdGVy ZW8gd2FzIHJlY29yZGVkIG9udG8gdGhlDQo+PiAiSGktRmkgYXVkaW8iIHRyYWNrIChzdWIgY2Fy cmllcnMgb24gdGhlIHZpZGVvKS4gSXQgd2FzIGFsc28gcHV0IG9udG8NCj4+IHRoZSBWSFMgbGlu ZWFyIHRyYWNrcyAtIGluIG1vbm8gLSBJIGRvbid0IHRoaW5rIHRoZXJlIHdhcyBhbnkgYXR0ZW1w dCB0bw0KPj4gc3BsaXQgdGhlbSBmb3Igc3RlcmVvLCBidXQgSSBkbyBoYXZlIHNvbWUgcHJlLXJl Y29yZGVkIHRhcGVzIHdoaWNoIGNsYWltDQo+PiB0byBoYXZlIERvbGJ5IEIgb24gdGhlIGxpbmVh ciB0cmFja3MuDQo+DQo+DQo+VGhlIFNhdHVyZGF5IG1vcm5pbmcgc3RlcmVvIHRyYW5zbWlzc2lv bnMgdXNpbmcgcmFkaW8gYW5kIFRWIHN0YXJ0ZWQgb24gDQo+MTh0aCBPY3RvYmVyIDE5NTgsIFRW IHNvdW5kIHdhcyBBTSBhdCB0aGF0IHRpbWUuDQo+DQpJdCBtdXN0IGhhdmUgYmVlbiBqdXN0IGJl Zm9yZSB0aGF0IEkgbGlzdGVuZWQgdG8gYW4gZXhwZXJpbWVudGFsDQpicm9hZGNhc3QgZnJvbSB0 aGUgSG9tZSBTZXJ2aWNlIGFuZCB0aGUgVGhpcmQgUHJvZ3JhbW1lIHZpYSB0d28NCmNyeXN0YWwg c2V0cyBpbiBzZXJpZXMgLSBiZXN0IHN0ZXJlbyBJJ3ZlIGV2ZXIgaGVhcmQhDQotLSANCkRhdmUg Vw0K

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
    * Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)
  • From tony sayer@21:1/5 to All on Fri Nov 25 21:36:21 2022
    In article <tlfmne$3pra5$1@dont-email.me>, NY <me@privacy.invalid>
    scribeth thus
    "Mark Carver" <mark.carver@invalid.invalid> wrote in message >news:ju126oFhokvU2@mid.individual.net...
    Using the TV sound/ FM mono radio for stereo was an appalling bodge.
    It must have sounded crap, the two tx paths were totally unmatched in
    terms of eq and phase.

    Maybe TV sound and radio sound for simulcasts were deliberately fed through
    a common audio chain as far as possible between mixing desk and
    transmitters, to avoid obvious mismatches. Can't do anything about different >bandwidths and therefore different frequency responses (for AM TV sound on >405-line TV). Presumably the matching between FM TV sound (625-line) and FM >radio would have been much better.


    Was the main advantage of simulcasting deemed to be stereo, or to be the >>> greater sound quality of the amplifier and speakers on a good FM radio
    compared with the mediocre ones in a TV?

    Yes.

    I was asking which of the two benefits of simulcasting (stereo or better >sound quality) was seen as being the more important. Maybe your answer of >"yes" implies that both benefits were regarded as equally important.



    Was the sound mix for TV sound and Radio 3 sound the same (apart from TV >sound being an equal mix of L and R) or did radio use a different mix of the >available microphones at the concert being broadcast?

    I remember someone suggesting that the TV sound mix tended to favour >whichever instrument was being shown at the time, which sounds implausible >because it means the sound mix was constantly changing depending on which >camera's shot was being used at the instant.


    The bandwidth of 405 line AM TV sound was up to 15 kHz IIRC or more like
    what the GPO could manage!..

    --
    Tony Sayer


    Man is least himself when he talks in his own person.

    Give him a keyboard, and he will reveal himself.

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
    * Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)
  • From tony sayer@21:1/5 to All on Fri Nov 25 21:52:08 2022
    In article <1q1s8ps.c45ds61gsx7qgN%liz@poppyrecords.invalid.invalid>,
    Liz Tuddenham <liz@poppyrecords.invalid.invalid> scribeth thus
    Mark Carver <mark.carver@invalid.invalid> wrote:

    ...
    And anyway, the TV amp and loudspeaker and radio amp and loudspeaker
    were totally different !

    With some television sets you were lucky if you got a proper sound
    output pentode; some used a low power RF pentode, such as an EF80, as
    the sound output valve. At least most radio sets didn't sink that low.


    EF80 Liz?, that must have been sometime ago!

    Remember a Baird TV monochrome back around 1972 ish that had very good
    sound on it, decent speaker and neg feedback! The Philips K7 chassis was
    very good for sound had bass and treble controls but it was from Sweden
    tho!..
    --
    Tony Sayer


    Man is least himself when he talks in his own person.

    Give him a keyboard, and he will reveal himself.

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
    * Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)
  • From tony sayer@21:1/5 to All on Fri Nov 25 22:00:28 2022
    In article <m5hnnh5c82gacpsje39shu0vsdo7qk7rp7@4ax.com>, Roderick
    Stewart <rjfs@escapetime.myzen.co.uk> scribeth thus
    On Mon, 21 Nov 2022 13:05:05 +0000, MB <MB@nospam.net> wrote:

    On 21/11/2022 12:26, charles wrote:
    These were demonstrations of Stereo sound. Nothingb to do with Simulacasts. >>> The ones I heard took place on Saturday mornings. Outsside tv broadcast
    hours. I had a tuner which would pick up tv sound, so no idea about what >>> picture was presented. Probably just a caption


    I suspect that at that time, many would not have a stereo record player
    so might never have heard stereo sound.

    My first experience of stereo was visiting a school friend whose older >brother had built a system, and I was so impressed that I decided I
    had to build one too. But a whole system would be very expensive, so
    my first experiment was to spend my pocket money on a stereo pickup
    cartridge and make a pickup arm out of Meccano which I could attach >temporarily to my sister's BSR autochange record player. For listening
    I rewired some aircraft headphones that I had for radio listening so
    that each headphone was connected separately, and I then built a pair
    of small amplifiers to drive them. I doubt that many people would have
    gone to this amount of trouble, so you're probably correct that most
    would never have heard stereo. But once you've heard it you never want
    to go back, and the rest is history...

    Rod.

    It happened to me i was taken to a Pantomime in Peterborough first time
    ever in a Theatre amazed by the sound of the band there especially
    things like Cymbals hitherto all we had at home was a Radiogram with sod
    all more that phone bandwidth available.

    Then went to stay with an aunt in London she was housekeeper to this
    baroness who was away a lot of the time in Scotland, she had a decent
    radio with that oft heard about FM band on!, was amazed at what you
    could hear the rest being a lot of history and money!!
    --
    Tony Sayer


    Man is least himself when he talks in his own person.

    Give him a keyboard, and he will reveal himself.

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
    * Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)