• Is whole frame from a single moment?

    From Richard Tobin@21:1/5 to All on Mon Jul 11 12:40:59 2022
    In a modern TV camera, do all the pixel values of a frame reflect the illumination at a single moment, or are they values varying over the
    time of a single frame, so that the bottom line is later than the
    first?

    -- Richard

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  • From Mark Carver@21:1/5 to Richard Tobin on Mon Jul 11 14:27:08 2022
    On 11/07/2022 13:40, Richard Tobin wrote:
    In a modern TV camera, do all the pixel values of a frame reflect the illumination at a single moment, or are they values varying over the
    time of a single frame, so that the bottom line is later than the
    first?


    Well, now, that opens a huge rabbit hole on the topic of Global or
    Rolling shutters !

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rolling_shutter

    <https://www.alliedvision.com/en/news/detail/sensor-shutter-modes-rolling-shutter-vs-global-shutter/?gclid=Cj0KCQjwlK-WBhDjARIsAO2sErROzhUf0KjWwLVoH0PYFB3UTdI-aGQ4Du2wkrax1DH8AoCGB42KR7UaAi28EALw_wcB>

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  • From Brian Gaff@21:1/5 to Mark Carver on Tue Jul 12 09:16:34 2022
    I always thought that semiconductor cameras were merely moving memory about
    in silicon. Every chunk is a frame, and its then handled from the place it
    has gone to depending on the system that is used. One assumes as you can now get extremely fast frame rates for video cameras, that this is dictated by
    how fast memory can be copied and processed.


    The concept of the shutter type is a mechanical construct. I remember many years ago watching a picture load into a zx Spectrum. The screen was divided into three, and the first row of pixels in the first third filled in etc,
    till that third was occupied, but no colour was there yet. then the second, then the third and finally the colour. It appears that this was the way the hardware was designed and so you were stuck with it as it was, but later on when the machine had a second screen, you could hide the screens and
    sequence the completed ones as an animation, just by switching the page of memory you were using mapped to the screen.
    Brian

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    "Mark Carver" <mark.carver@invalid.invalid> wrote in message news:jj2mpcFste7U1@mid.individual.net...
    On 11/07/2022 13:40, Richard Tobin wrote:
    In a modern TV camera, do all the pixel values of a frame reflect the
    illumination at a single moment, or are they values varying over the
    time of a single frame, so that the bottom line is later than the
    first?


    Well, now, that opens a huge rabbit hole on the topic of Global or Rolling shutters !

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rolling_shutter

    <https://www.alliedvision.com/en/news/detail/sensor-shutter-modes-rolling-shutter-vs-global-shutter/?gclid=Cj0KCQjwlK-WBhDjARIsAO2sErROzhUf0KjWwLVoH0PYFB3UTdI-aGQ4Du2wkrax1DH8AoCGB42KR7UaAi28EALw_wcB>

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  • From NY@21:1/5 to Brian Gaff on Tue Jul 12 09:36:15 2022
    "Brian Gaff" <brian1gaff@gmail.com> wrote in message news:tajal5$207si$1@dont-email.me...
    I always thought that semiconductor cameras were merely moving memory
    about in silicon. Every chunk is a frame, and its then handled from the place it has gone to depending on the system that is used. One assumes as
    you can now get extremely fast frame rates for video cameras, that this is dictated by how fast memory can be copied and processed.


    The concept of the shutter type is a mechanical construct. I remember many years ago watching a picture load into a zx Spectrum. The screen was
    divided into three, and the first row of pixels in the first third filled
    in etc, till that third was occupied, but no colour was there yet. then
    the second, then the third and finally the colour. It appears that this
    was the way the hardware was designed and so you were stuck with it as it was, but later on when the machine had a second screen, you could hide the screens and sequence the completed ones as an animation, just by switching the page of memory you were using mapped to the screen.

    It depends how the camera chip converts the analogue brightness of a pixel
    to its numerical value. Some sensors "freeze" the analogue value for every pixel simultaneously, and then sequentially convert the voltages to digital
    and read them out. Others convert each value as it is being output on the
    data bus.

    The former allows a global shutter - like an iris shutter on a film camera.
    But it needs sample-and-hold technology for every pixel, or else an analogue-to-digital converter for every pixel. The latter is a rolling
    shutter - like a focal-plane shutter on a film camera. It is simpler because you only need one ADC, but causes vertical objects to tilt if the camera is panned horizontally past them.

    I presume the effect is more noticeable with a video camera than it was with
    a film camera because the "shutter" effect takes a whole frame (1/25 sec) to pass from the top of the frame to the bottom, whereas focal plane shutters
    on film cameras (eg 35 mm still) were usually around 1/125 second (you can
    tell what it is because it's the shortest shutter speed at which flash can
    be used).

    As an aside... Most film cameras made the shutter travel in the vertical direction because it was the shorter distance and so the shutter took less
    time to travel it; some made it travel in the horizontal direction which
    takes longer (so slower minimum flash-sync speed) but causes less
    parallelogram distortion because you rarely pan (tilt) vertically: a slight change in the aspect ratio is less noticeable than a tilting of vertical
    lines.

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  • From John Williamson@21:1/5 to Brian Gaff on Tue Jul 12 10:21:34 2022
    Semiconductor sensors can be made to either sense the entire frame, then
    send it to a local memory buffer and on to the main stirage, or to scan
    a row or pixel at a time, then poke the data stream directly into the
    main storage.

    The "shutter speed" is set by the duration of the sensing period, which
    is, more or less, set by the width of a clock pulse. The frame rate is
    set by the clock speed. The normal bottleneck for frame rate is the
    speed of the memory device in use, and the fastest frame rate cameras
    tend to use a first in first out RAM buffer with a second or two of data
    in it, and when you hit the "record" button, it dumps the contents of
    the buffer onto a hard drive or other storage device.


    On 12/07/2022 09:16, Brian Gaff wrote:
    I always thought that semiconductor cameras were merely moving memory about in silicon. Every chunk is a frame, and its then handled from the place it has gone to depending on the system that is used. One assumes as you can now get extremely fast frame rates for video cameras, that this is dictated by how fast memory can be copied and processed.


    Brian



    --
    Tciao for Now!

    John.

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  • From Dave W@21:1/5 to All on Tue Jul 12 19:42:25 2022
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  • From NY@21:1/5 to Dave W on Wed Jul 13 08:49:24 2022
    "Dave W" <davewi11@yahoo.co.uk> wrote in message news:51grchli30np3qseumg1mkrtecjj9r25r8@4ax.com...
    On Mon, 11 Jul 2022 12:40:59 +0000 (UTC), richard@cogsci.ed.ac.uk
    (Richard Tobin) wrote:

    In a modern TV camera, do all the pixel values of a frame reflect the >>illumination at a single moment, or are they values varying over the
    time of a single frame, so that the bottom line is later than the
    first?

    -- Richard

    I've seen too many distorted aeroplane propellers to think that the
    whole frame represents one instant in time.

    That's exacerbated by the fact that many mini cameras mounted on aeroplane windows to show a TV presenter can only adjust the exposure by varying the shutter speed, because they have a primitive fixed-iris lens. This means
    that you get *sharp* images of the disjointed propeller blades rather than blurred ones with a 1/25 sec shutter speed.

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  • From Brian Gaff@21:1/5 to me@privacy.invalid on Wed Jul 13 09:51:45 2022
    Besides, the definition of a single moment is meaningless everything takes
    time or we would be in the present for ever.
    Brian

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    "NY" <me@privacy.invalid> wrote in message
    news:talteo$2akra$1@dont-email.me...
    "Dave W" <davewi11@yahoo.co.uk> wrote in message news:51grchli30np3qseumg1mkrtecjj9r25r8@4ax.com...
    On Mon, 11 Jul 2022 12:40:59 +0000 (UTC), richard@cogsci.ed.ac.uk
    (Richard Tobin) wrote:

    In a modern TV camera, do all the pixel values of a frame reflect the >>>illumination at a single moment, or are they values varying over the
    time of a single frame, so that the bottom line is later than the
    first?

    -- Richard

    I've seen too many distorted aeroplane propellers to think that the
    whole frame represents one instant in time.

    That's exacerbated by the fact that many mini cameras mounted on aeroplane windows to show a TV presenter can only adjust the exposure by varying the shutter speed, because they have a primitive fixed-iris lens. This means
    that you get *sharp* images of the disjointed propeller blades rather than blurred ones with a 1/25 sec shutter speed.

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  • From Richard Tobin@21:1/5 to Brian Gaff on Wed Jul 13 09:54:58 2022
    In article <tam135$2avon$1@dont-email.me>,
    Brian Gaff <brian1gaff@gmail.com> wrote:
    Besides, the definition of a single moment is meaningless everything takes >time or we would be in the present for ever.

    How long does 6 o'clock last?

    -- Richard

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  • From Mark Carver@21:1/5 to Richard Tobin on Wed Jul 13 11:42:14 2022
    On 13/07/2022 10:54, Richard Tobin wrote:
    In article <tam135$2avon$1@dont-email.me>,
    Brian Gaff <brian1gaff@gmail.com> wrote:
    Besides, the definition of a single moment is meaningless everything takes >> time or we would be in the present for ever.
    How long does 6 o'clock last?

    6am on a dark weekday morning, not nearly long enough !

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  • From Brian Gaff@21:1/5 to Richard Tobin on Wed Jul 13 15:41:57 2022
    Lets just say that even if you had a clock wired into your brain, by the
    time you became aware it was 6 it would be after 6.

    Can you experience deja Vu for the first time and all that.
    Brian

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    "Richard Tobin" <richard@cogsci.ed.ac.uk> wrote in message news:tam4pi$kfs$1@macpro.inf.ed.ac.uk...
    In article <tam135$2avon$1@dont-email.me>,
    Brian Gaff <brian1gaff@gmail.com> wrote:
    Besides, the definition of a single moment is meaningless everything takes >>time or we would be in the present for ever.

    How long does 6 o'clock last?

    -- Richard

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  • From williamwright@21:1/5 to Richard Tobin on Wed Jul 13 22:29:30 2022
    On 13/07/2022 10:54, Richard Tobin wrote:
    In article <tam135$2avon$1@dont-email.me>,
    Brian Gaff <brian1gaff@gmail.com> wrote:
    Besides, the definition of a single moment is meaningless everything takes >> time or we would be in the present for ever.

    How long does 6 o'clock last?

    -- Richard

    If time suddenly reversed would we know?

    Bill

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  • From Liz Tuddenham@21:1/5 to williamwright on Thu Jul 14 09:37:38 2022
    williamwright <wrightsaerials@f2s.com> wrote:

    On 13/07/2022 10:54, Richard Tobin wrote:
    In article <tam135$2avon$1@dont-email.me>,
    Brian Gaff <brian1gaff@gmail.com> wrote:
    Besides, the definition of a single moment is meaningless everything takes >> time or we would be in the present for ever.

    How long does 6 o'clock last?

    -- Richard

    If time suddenly reversed would we know?

    Would that mean I would start growing up instead of becoming more
    childish?


    --
    ~ Liz Tuddenham ~
    (Remove the ".invalid"s and add ".co.uk" to reply)
    www.poppyrecords.co.uk

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  • From Brian Gaff@21:1/5 to williamwright on Fri Jul 15 13:19:56 2022
    Yes all the dog mess would reverse back into the dogs.
    Brian

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    "williamwright" <wrightsaerials@f2s.com> wrote in message news:jj8rprF4bnmU1@mid.individual.net...
    On 13/07/2022 10:54, Richard Tobin wrote:
    In article <tam135$2avon$1@dont-email.me>,
    Brian Gaff <brian1gaff@gmail.com> wrote:
    Besides, the definition of a single moment is meaningless everything
    takes
    time or we would be in the present for ever.

    How long does 6 o'clock last?

    -- Richard

    If time suddenly reversed would we know?

    Bill

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  • From NY@21:1/5 to Brian Gaff on Fri Jul 15 14:17:53 2022
    (top-posting for Brian)

    That would be one hell of a sight ;-)

    "Brian Gaff" <brian1gaff@gmail.com> wrote in message news:tarm1h$322mi$1@dont-email.me...
    Yes all the dog mess would reverse back into the dogs.

    "williamwright" <wrightsaerials@f2s.com> wrote in message
    If time suddenly reversed would we know?

    Bill

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