I know that 11307H was used as a temporary copy of Bilsdale's PSB2 to distribute the mux to relay stations while Bilsdale itself was not
able to distribute the mux by Freeview.
But is it still needed? Is the coverage of the temporary Bilsdale
still not good enough to reach some of the relays? I presume it will
be freed up once the full-height Bilsdale is in service.
On 05/06/2022 16:01, NY wrote:
I know that 11307H was used as a temporary copy of Bilsdale's PSB2 to
distribute the mux to relay stations while Bilsdale itself was not able
to distribute the mux by Freeview.
But is it still needed? Is the coverage of the temporary Bilsdale still
not good enough to reach some of the relays? I presume it will be freed
up once the full-height Bilsdale is in service.
Yes, it's still being used at almost all of the relay sites I think. A
couple have been retuned to Pontop though.
Also, it allows them to interrupt the transmissions from the temporary
mast, without the relays going off
http://tx.mb21.co.uk/gallery/gallerypage.php?txid=747&pageid=4218
So you should be able to detect a delay from the ones fed from the sat against the others if you can get two sets in the same place to receive
both.
 In the mid-1990s, would there have been any digital processing stages between the studio output and the receiver?
On 06/06/2022 17:36, NY wrote:
 In the mid-1990s, would there have been any digital processing stages
between the studio output and the receiver?
Loads, frame store synchronisers all over the shop. The delay you heard
was nothing to do with any propagation delays, they would have been microseconds (do the maths, using 2/3rds the speed of light)
Frame Store Syncs, add, well, the clue is in name isn't it ?
On 06/06/2022 17:36, NY wrote:
In the mid-1990s, would there have been any digital processing stages
between the studio output and the receiver?
Loads, frame store synchronisers all over the shop. The delay you heard
was nothing to do with any propagation delays, they would have been microseconds (do the maths, using 2/3rds the speed of light)
Frame Store Syncs, add, well, the clue is in name isn't it ?
Mind you, I'm not *certain* that the signals which Bracknell Cable TV distributed were even received from Crystal Palace and HanningtonErr no. You'd never do that, or need to. In any case, relays didn't take
themselves, as opposed to from relays - only that I got TVS from one
and Thames/LWT from the other. If one was a relay, there could be a
frame store at the relay to correct for any timing jitter in the
signal received from the main transmitter.
The more weird thing was on another occasion when I was tuning the
output of the VCR to find a vacant slot in the UHF spectrum for it to
"talk" to the TV. At one stage I tuned it too close to a broadcast
signal and got co-channel interference between one channel off-air and another channel via the VCR and its frequency-shifting. So I got the well-known cross-pattern, where TV was syncing off one channel but
displaying the video of the other channel. Nothing special there,
but... I was surprised that the video rolled at a rate of about once a minute.
I'd expected that all TV signals would have used the same line rate (different crystals at the same nominal frequency) and I was surprised
that there was a discrepancy of about 1 cycle/minute.
I presume it was different broadcasters (eg ITV and BBC) rather than
two channels from BBC which almost certainly would have shared a
common reference frequency. What is the typical permitted error
between one broadcaster's reference frequency and another? Would a
small error in line frequency affect colour decoding? I presume the
PAL crystal in a TV is nowhere near as tightly controlled as the
studio reference frequency, and PAL has to be able to cope with that, hopefully producing saturation rather than hue errors. I realise that
before colour, TVs synced to the mains, so tuners had to cope with a variation in field rate of 50 +/- 0.5 Hz.
I'd expected that all TV signals would have used the same line rate
(different crystals at the same nominal frequency) and I was surprised
that there was a discrepancy of about 1 cycle/minute.
What do you mean by 'cycle' ? A frame ?
I presume it was different broadcasters (eg ITV and BBC) rather than two
channels from BBC which almost certainly would have shared a common
reference frequency. What is the typical permitted error between one
broadcaster's reference frequency and another? Would a small error in
line frequency affect colour decoding? I presume the PAL crystal in a TV
is nowhere near as tightly controlled as the studio reference frequency,
and PAL has to be able to cope with that, hopefully producing saturation
rather than hue errors. I realise that before colour, TVs synced to the
mains, so tuners had to cope with a variation in field rate of 50 +/- 0.5
Hz.
These days master SPGs are locked to a GPS (or similar) timing reference. Back in the day the BBC/IBA/EBU spec for sub-carrier frequency was
4.43361875 +/- 1 Hz with a rate of change of no more than 0.1 Hz/sec
The line and field rates were derived from that s/c reference (Usenet
doesn't allow the formula to be easily displayed !)
"Mark Carver" <mark.carver@invalid.invalid> wrote in message news:jg8crhFje6lU1@mid.individual.net...So one line then ? Horizontal movement, not vertical ? In which case,
I'd expected that all TV signals would have used the same line rate
(different crystals at the same nominal frequency) and I was
surprised that there was a discrepancy of about 1 cycle/minute.
What do you mean by 'cycle' ? A frame ?
The time taken for the cross (border of one frame, visible on the TV
screen which was syncing on the other co-channel) moving from one
extreme to the other and back to its original position.
Ah, I suppose the CSC frequency is the thing that would have a
crystal, with the line frequency being derived from
f(CSC) = 283 * f(L) + 25 Hz (if I've remembered the constants correctly)
I presume that if modern SPGs are locked to GPS (ie all to a common reference), there should be no discernable drift between one channel
and another, though it is not easy to tell, given that co-channel interference isn't visible on digital - one of digital's benefits.
Yes I did the maths (apart from using c rather than (2/3).c) - it comes
out at 133 usec (or 0.1 msec). My question was whether the ear is
sensitive to hearing such a short time delay. My guess is no!
line frequency affect colour decoding? I presume the PAL crystal in a
TV is nowhere near as tightly controlled as the studio reference
frequency, and PAL has to be able to cope with that, hopefully
producing saturation rather than hue errors. I realise that before
colour, TVs synced to the mains, so tuners had to cope with a variation
in field rate of 50 +/- 0.5 Hz.
line frequency affect colour decoding? I presume the PAL crystal in a TV
is nowhere near as tightly controlled as the studio reference
True - it is (or was) about the commonest frequency made, but even so
cheap crystals can have a tolerance as poor as 500 ppm, but ..
frequency, and PAL has to be able to cope with that, hopefully
... that's what the colour burst at the start of every line is for - to
give the local oscillator in the set a frequency, and more important a
phase, reference. So the set only needs to hold the reference for one
line - 64 μs (less actually because of sync pulse and porches).
producing saturation rather than hue errors. I realise that before colour, >>TVs synced to the mains, so tuners had to cope with a variation in field >>rate of 50 +/- 0.5 Hz.
I think some Baird Televisors used the mains, but for the frame/field
sync., no, that's what the sync pulses are for - even system A ("405"
lines) had sync. pulses. (Think about it: how did battery TVs work!)
Colour sets didn't do sync. any differently to monochrome sets - they certainly didn't divide down the colour subcarrier, or multiply up to it. Yes, the frequency of the subcarrier was _selected_ to have a very precise relationship to the line and field pulses, but that was to minimise
artefacts (such as dot patterns, especially on B/W sets) - sets did not do the divisions/multiplications inherent in that selection. (You only have
to look at what home VCRs did to the colour signals, and sets still worked with the output from those!)
On Mon 06/06/2022 17:41, Mark Carver wrote:
On 06/06/2022 17:36, NY wrote:
In the mid-1990s, would there have been any digital processing stages
between the studio output and the receiver?
Loads, frame store synchronisers all over the shop. The delay you heard
was nothing to do with any propagation delays, they would have been
microseconds (do the maths, using 2/3rds the speed of light)
Frame Store Syncs, add, well, the clue is in name isn't it ?
When I used to do quasi-sync radio system setups (by the bucket load!) I
used the free space signal propagation time as 5.38uS per mile, so 70Km
would give about 234uS. No matter how hard you try you won't hear that!
"J. P. Gilliver (John)" <G6JPG@255soft.uk> wrote in message >news:tXSbS6N7CzniFw+i@a.a...
line frequency affect colour decoding? I presume the PAL crystal in a
TV is nowhere near as tightly controlled as the studio reference
True - it is (or was) about the commonest frequency made, but even so >>cheap crystals can have a tolerance as poor as 500 ppm, but ..
frequency, and PAL has to be able to cope with that, hopefully
... that's what the colour burst at the start of every line is for -
to give the local oscillator in the set a frequency, and more
important a phase, reference. So the set only needs to hold the
reference for one line - 64 μs (less actually because of sync pulse
and porches).
The problem comes when the colour is encoded at one frequency and
decoded at another frequency (because of tolerances in the receiver >crystals). The colour burst gets the local frequency into the correct
phase initially, but it the drifts out of phase because the frequency
is slightly different. And being double-sideband modulation, you don't
a frequency shift (as with SSB), you get periodic fading. I suppose in
a really bad case where the frequency difference has a period less than
a line period, you start to see variations in saturation across each line.
producing saturation rather than hue errors. I realise that before >>>colour, TVs synced to the mains, so tuners had to cope with a
variation in field rate of 50 +/- 0.5 Hz.
I think some Baird Televisors used the mains, but for the frame/field >>sync., no, that's what the sync pulses are for - even system A ("405" >>lines) had sync. pulses. (Think about it: how did battery TVs work!)
Colour sets didn't do sync. any differently to monochrome sets - they >>certainly didn't divide down the colour subcarrier, or multiply up to
it. Yes, the frequency of the subcarrier was _selected_ to have a
very precise relationship to the line and field pulses, but that was
to minimise artefacts (such as dot patterns, especially on B/W sets)
- sets did not do the divisions/multiplications inherent in that >>selection. (You only have to look at what home VCRs did to the colour >>signals, and sets still worked with the output from those!)
When did TV studios stop being synchronised to the mains and start to >synchronise to a crystal? I though it continued well into 240- and
405-line days, and it was mainly the introduction of colour that
prevented it because anything other than an exact line/frame rate would >destroy the careful f(sub-carrier) = f(line) * (n+1)/2 + 25 Hz
relationship, so you'd get variable dot-patterning which the exact >relationship was designed to minimise.
VCRs (well, VHS anyway) were a lot less tolerant of non-compliant
waveforms than TVs were. My first computer (Transam Wren - CP/M3) had a >625/25 RGB output for driving an RGB monitor, but had no composite
output. Colours could only be seen as shades of amber on the amber
screen that was built in. So I made a PAL converter, using a PAL
encoder IC and a PAL 4.43 MHz crystal (*). This drove the TV's BNC
input and produced fairly good results, subject to the poor HF response
of the average TV and therefore the blurring of fine horizontal detail.
I've no idea whether the timing of the various components (line/frame
rate, front/back porch, equalising pulses) was correct. I never got
chance to try the RGB output on an RGB monitor, but I did try feeding
the composite output through a VCR. Feeding it live (ie PAL input
remodulated onto an RF output) showed noticeable tearing and some
shimmering of colour. Recording and playing back was more amusing: the
VCR's head struggled to sync and colours flickered randomly. Head-sync >problems suggests signal timing errors. Loss of colour and alternating >correct/complementary colour suggests error in PAL frequency.
My PAL decoder was a great idea, and at least on a TV that had baseband
input (BNC or SCART) you could see the colours. The ability to record
to tape was one of those "let's see what happens" experiments rather
than something that was needed. It's a shame that typical PC monitors >expected US TV timings (640x480) or else computer-standard timings for >800x600, 1024x768. I did try the Wren to the monitor on my first
IBM-type PC but it wouldn't sync. No doubt a monitor designed for a BBC
Micro would have worked perfectly - but would have been useless for PC >signals.
The ultimate in VCRs producing weird signals was the more recent VHS
machines which were designed for PAL but which could play back a tape
that had been recorded on NTSC. The line/frame rate was 525/30 which
some TVs would sync with, at the expense of a very loud relay clonking
as it changed over, and reduced picture height causing the aspect ratio
to be wrong. But the colour was decoded correctly. Apparently those
VCRs were designed to produce a hybrid output: 525/30 but with
pseudo-PAL encoding of colour so a UK TV would be able to decode it. When I
went over to stay with my sister who was living in the US at the time,
I recorded a bit of US TV on their multi-standard VCR (PAL/NTSC/SECAM)
and brought it back to see what my PAL-only equipment made of it,
because I'd heard rumours of partial compatibility. It was a one-way
process: most "modern" PAL VCRs and TVs could sync with NTSC, but
virtually no NTSC equipment could do PAL - an example of the US "the
world stops at America's borders" syndrome ;-) My sister was warned to
buy her multi-standard equipment in the UK before setting off, because
it would not be available for love nor money in the US.
(*) A project in an electronic magazine. I forget whether I had to use >resistors to derive the luminance signal from the correct proportionsYes, "smoothed" still has _some_ ripple. A linear regulator might have
of RGB, or whether the IC did that itself. Mains hum was a problem: I
found that I had to drive the circuit from a battery because a
supposedly smoothed PSU caused a lot of ripple in the picture. This was >before the days of switched-mode power supplies everywhere: nowadays a
mobile phone charger that generated USB-compliant power would probably
have been fine. A bridge rectifier with smoothing capacitors was
probably not good enough ;-)
I think some Baird Televisors used the mains, but for the frame/field
sync., no, that's what the sync pulses are for - even system A ("405"
lines) had sync. pulses. (Think about it: how did battery TVs work!)
When I used to do quasi-sync radio system setups (by the bucket load!)
I used the free space signal propagation time as 5.38uS per mile, so 70Km would give about 234uS.
Baird did experiment with mechanical spinning disc systems with
greater numbers of lines, but I don't know if any of them included
sync pulses.
On Mon, 6 Jun 2022 22:51:15 +0100, Woody <harrogate3@ntlworld.com> wrote:
When I used to do quasi-sync radio system setups (by the bucket load!)
I used the free space signal propagation time as 5.38uS per mile, so 70Km
would give about 234uS.
That's "us" and "km" rather than "uS" and "Km".
(No units were harmed in the making of this message.)
Shot changes were accomplished by someone holding a board with a[]
checkerboard pattern in front of the camera (or scanner, as they
called it) which couldn't be moved of course because that would have >disturbed the rotation of the disc. A checkerboard was used instead of
Or even ??s (-:When I used to do quasi-sync radio system setups (by the bucket load!)
I used the free space signal propagation time as 5.38uS per mile, so 70Km >>> would give about 234uS.
That's "us" and "km" rather than "uS" and "Km".
(No units were harmed in the making of this message.)
On Tue, 7 Jun 2022 23:37:36 +0100, J. P. Gilliver (John) <G6JPG@255soft.uk> wrote:
Or even ??s (-:When I used to do quasi-sync radio system setups (by the bucket load!) >>>> I used the free space signal propagation time as 5.38uS per mile, so 70Km >>>> would give about 234uS.
That's "us" and "km" rather than "uS" and "Km".
(No units were harmed in the making of this message.)
My reader only does ASCII.
Shot changes were accomplished by someone holding a board with a >>checkerboard pattern in front of the camera (or scanner, as they[]
called it) which couldn't be moved of course because that would have >>disturbed the rotation of the disc. A checkerboard was used instead of
I'm not sure the spinning-disc thing was referred to as a scanner. The
one that used a lot (well, presumably 30) of mirrors on a drum, mainly
used for outside broadcasts (most famously of the Derby), was - and (we
had a discussion about this a year two ago) - seems to be the most
plausible reason why OB vehicles themselves acquired that name. (Other >suggestions were their resemblance to mobile radar vans, or that it
contained the master sync. ["scanning waveform"] generators for OB
cameras; both seemed ruled out as there is some evidence of the term for
the vehicle predating the existence of both of those.)
My reader only does ASCII.
On Tue, 7 Jun 2022 23:36:43 +0100, "J. P. Gilliver (John)"[]
<G6JPG@255soft.uk> wrote:
Shot changes were accomplished by someone holding a board with a >>>checkerboard pattern in front of the camera (or scanner, as they[]
called it) which couldn't be moved of course because that would have >>>disturbed the rotation of the disc. A checkerboard was used instead of
I'm not sure the spinning-disc thing was referred to as a scanner. The
one that used a lot (well, presumably 30) of mirrors on a drum, mainly
used for outside broadcasts (most famously of the Derby), was - and (we
So what do you think they did call it then?
Rod.--
Paul Ratcliffe <abuse@orac12.clara34.co56.uk78> wrote:
On Tue, 7 Jun 2022 23:37:36 +0100, J. P. Gilliver (John) <G6JPG@255soft.uk> >> wrote:
Or even ??s (-:When I used to do quasi-sync radio system setups (by the bucket load!) >>>>> I used the free space signal propagation time as 5.38uS per mile, so 70Km >>>>> would give about 234uS.
That's "us" and "km" rather than "uS" and "Km".
(No units were harmed in the making of this message.)
My reader only does ASCII.
Time to modernise?
I only post or read ASCII as I don't like pictures advertising
rubbish.
On Tue, 7 Jun 2022 23:37:36 +0100, J. P. Gilliver (John) <G6JPG@255soft.uk> >wrote:
Or even ??s (-:When I used to do quasi-sync radio system setups (by the bucket load!) >>>> I used the free space signal propagation time as 5.38uS per mile, so 70Km >>>> would give about 234uS.
That's "us" and "km" rather than "uS" and "Km".
(No units were harmed in the making of this message.)
My reader only does ASCII.
On Wed, 8 Jun 2022 13:12:34 +0100, John Williamson <johnwilliamson@btinternet.com> wrote:
On 08/06/2022 13:01, Stephen Wolstenholme wrote:
I only post or read ASCII as I don't like pictures advertisingWhich version of ASCII does sir prefer?
rubbish.
Plain text, whatever it's number was.
On 08/06/2022 13:01, Stephen Wolstenholme wrote:
I only post or read ASCII as I don't like pictures advertisingWhich version of ASCII does sir prefer?
rubbish.
Paul Ratcliffe wrote:.___ .__ __ __________________________________________
My reader only does ASCII.
I only post or read ASCII as I don't like pictures advertising
rubbish.
On 08/06/2022 13:31, steve@swingnn.com wrote:
On Wed, 8 Jun 2022 13:12:34 +0100, John WilliamsonAll the ones mentioned are plain text. All are slightly different, and
<johnwilliamson@btinternet.com> wrote:
On 08/06/2022 13:01, Stephen Wolstenholme wrote:
I only post or read ASCII as I don't like pictures advertisingWhich version of ASCII does sir prefer?
rubbish.
Plain text, whatever it's number was.
there are and were many versions of each in use, depending where in the
world you are.
Unless you are referring to the earliest 7-bit version, and even that
was not universal.
Stephen Wolstenholme wrote:
Paul Ratcliffe wrote:.___ .__ __ __________________________________________
My reader only does ASCII.
I only post or read ASCII as I don't like pictures advertising
rubbish.
__| _/______|__| ____ | | __ \______ \_ _____/\_ _____/\______
\
/ __ |\_ __ \ |/ \| |/ / | | _/| __)_ | __)_ |
_/
/ /_/ | | | \/ | | \ < | | \| \ | \ | |
\
\____ | |__| |__|___| /__|_ \ |______ /_______ //_______ / |____|_
/
\/ \/ \/ \/ \/ \/ \/
__ ________________ __________
_________
______ _____ ____ | | __ ____ \__ ___/ _ \\______ \/
_____/
/ ___// \ / _ \| |/ // __ \ | | / /_\ \| | _/\_____ \
\___ \| Y Y ( <_> ) <\ ___/ | |/ | \ | \/
\
/____ >__|_| /\____/|__|_ \\___ > |____|\____|__ /______ /_______
/
\/ \/ \/ \/ \/ \/ \/
On Wed, 8 Jun 2022 13:44:01 +0100, John Williamson ><johnwilliamson@btinternet.com> wrote:
On 08/06/2022 13:31, steve@swingnn.com wrote:
On Wed, 8 Jun 2022 13:12:34 +0100, John WilliamsonAll the ones mentioned are plain text. All are slightly different, and >>there are and were many versions of each in use, depending where in the >>world you are.
<johnwilliamson@btinternet.com> wrote:
On 08/06/2022 13:01, Stephen Wolstenholme wrote:
I only post or read ASCII as I don't like pictures advertisingWhich version of ASCII does sir prefer?
rubbish.
Plain text, whatever it's number was.
Unless you are referring to the earliest 7-bit version, and even that
was not universal.
I suppose I should be saying that I use whatever is on my keyboard. My >current Samsung R720 laptop has the same qwerty layout as my
typewriter had about 60 years ago. My typewriter did not use ASCII. In
fact it didn't use electricity. I must get it from the shed as it may
be worth something!
Mabe worth nowt, like mine, cannot get ribbons for it.
Andy Burns wrote:
   .___     .__       __    __________________________________________
 __| _/______|__| ____ | | __ \______  \_  _____/\_  _____/\______ \
 / __ |\_ __ \ |/   \| |/ / |   | _/|   __)_ |   __)_ | _/
/ /_/ | |Â | \/Â |Â Â |Â \Â Â Â <Â Â |Â Â Â |Â Â \|Â Â Â Â Â Â Â \ |Â Â Â Â Â Â Â \ |Â Â Â | \
\____ | |__|Â |__|___|Â /__|_ \Â |______Â /_______Â //_______Â / |____|_ /
    \/              \/    \/        \/       \/        \/        \/
                      __           ________________ __________ _________
 ______ _____  ____ | | __ ____  \__   ___/ _ \\______  \/ _____/
 / ___//    \ / _ \| |/ // __ \   |   | / /_\ \|   | _/\_____ \
 \___ \| Y Y ( <_> )   <\ ___/   |   |/   |   \   |  \/ \
/____Â >__|_|Â /\____/|__|_ \\___Â >Â Â |____|\____|__Â /______Â /_______ /
    \/     \/           \/   \/                 \/      \/       \/
Even when I copied that to a text editor with a fixed-pitch font, it was not easy to ready. But I deciphered it eventually. I'll go for the first one, but I'll steer clear of the second as I hate the smell of cigarette smoke ;-)
On Wed, 08 Jun 2022 15:01:11 +0100, BrightsideS9 <reply_to_address_is_not@invalid.invalid> wrote:
Mabe worth nowt, like mine, cannot get ribbons for it.
Bring back carbon paper!
Steve
On 08/06/2022 13:31, steve@swingnn.com wrote:
On Wed, 8 Jun 2022 13:12:34 +0100, John WilliamsonAll the ones mentioned are plain text. All are slightly different, and
<johnwilliamson@btinternet.com> wrote:
On 08/06/2022 13:01, Stephen Wolstenholme wrote:
I only post or read ASCII as I don't like pictures advertisingWhich version of ASCII does sir prefer?
rubbish.
Plain text, whatever it's number was.
there are and were many versions of each in use, depending where in the
world you are.
Unless you are referring to the earliest 7-bit version, and even that
was not universal.
On 08/06/2022 13:44, John Williamson wrote:
Unless you are referring to the earliest 7-bit version, and even that
was not universal.
Apparently the original idea was that the code for $ would show the
local currency symbol, wherever you are. Which would have been confusing.
Here's the obvious catch, if you are delaying a programme through a framestore you are also delaying the picture with respect to the sound
(which did not pass through a framestore). To make this correct again you
had an audio delay in line with the audio. Typically these audio delays
would have two reference video inputs too, one video input was the
incoming 'raw' undelayed video (Fgr) and the other would be the output of
the local SPG feeding the framestore (now either Ft or Ftvs). The audio
delay unit would measure the difference between the two reference signals
and drop in a matching delay in the audio path. You can see now that Coronation Street is extremely likely to be in a different place 'in time
and space' from one ITV company to another so if you are in a position to listen to the output of both companies at the same time it is very likely their will be a difference in audio timing between the two sources.
On 08/06/2022 17:59, Max Demian wrote:
On 08/06/2022 13:44, John Williamson wrote:
The beauty of computing standards is that there have always been so manyUnless you are referring to the earliest 7-bit version, and even that
was not universal.
Apparently the original idea was that the code for $ would show the
local currency symbol, wherever you are. Which would have been confusing.
to choose from...
"joe bloggs" <reel.sounds.of...@gmail.com> wrote in message news:92902d13-264f-4f90...@googlegroups.com...
Here's the obvious catch, if you are delaying a programme through a framestore you are also delaying the picture with respect to the sound (which did not pass through a framestore). To make this correct again you had an audio delay in line with the audio. Typically these audio delays would have two reference video inputs too, one video input was the incoming 'raw' undelayed video (Fgr) and the other would be the output of the local SPG feeding the framestore (now either Ft or Ftvs). The audio delay unit would measure the difference between the two reference signals and drop in a matching delay in the audio path. You can see now that Coronation Street is extremely likely to be in a different place 'in time and space' from one ITV company to another so if you are in a position to listen to the output of both companies at the same time it is very likely their will be a difference in audio timing between the two sources.
Ah, did/does the design of frame stores and SPGs not include an equivalent delay for the sound and, nowadays, any other data streams such as subtitles?
"John Williamson" <johnwilliamson@btinternet.com> wrote in message >news:jgc41eF859bU1@mid.individual.net...
On 08/06/2022 17:59, Max Demian wrote:
On 08/06/2022 13:44, John Williamson wrote:The beauty of computing standards is that there have always been so
Unless you are referring to the earliest 7-bit version, and even that
was not universal.
Apparently the original idea was that the code for $ would show the
local currency symbol, wherever you are. Which would have been confusing. >>>
many to choose from...
And you can always rely on Apple to ignore *all* the standards and
invent their own incompatible ones.
On Wednesday, June 8, 2022 at 9:27:56 PM UTC+1, NY wrote:The delay through the framestore and its associated audio delay unit obviously depended on the timing difference between the incoming video and your local SPG - this would be variable as the two elements were always 'moving' with respect to one another.
"joe bloggs" <reel.sounds.of...@gmail.com> wrote in message
news:92902d13-264f-4f90...@googlegroups.com...
Here's the obvious catch, if you are delaying a programme through a
framestore you are also delaying the picture with respect to the sound
(which did not pass through a framestore). To make this correct again you >>> had an audio delay in line with the audio. Typically these audio delays
would have two reference video inputs too, one video input was the
incoming 'raw' undelayed video (Fgr) and the other would be the output of >>> the local SPG feeding the framestore (now either Ft or Ftvs). The audio
delay unit would measure the difference between the two reference signals >>> and drop in a matching delay in the audio path. You can see now that
Coronation Street is extremely likely to be in a different place 'in time >>> and space' from one ITV company to another so if you are in a position to >>> listen to the output of both companies at the same time it is very likely >>> their will be a difference in audio timing between the two sources.
Ah, did/does the design of frame stores and SPGs not include an equivalent >> delay for the sound and, nowadays, any other data streams such as subtitles?I'm not sure I understand your query. In the days of analogue, framestores were designed to synchronise remote video sources to your local video sources. They were not designed to deal with audio - that is why separate audio delay units were required.
'lip sync' being out (and seriously out) is far more common and easily achievable this century than in the last !
On 09/06/2022 10:05, Mark Carver wrote:
'lip sync' being out (and seriously out) is far more common and easily
achievable this century than in the last !
A classic example was watching the Mamma Mia cast at the platinum
jubilee concert. It was either bad delay settings or really bad miming.
Andy Burns' suggestion may help - sounds like he knows which reader you
are using.
Probably my fault - Turnpike lets me use non-ASCII characters, but
doesn't put the magic spell in the subject line (or maybe in the
headers?) that is maybe needed when I do so.
Interestingly, I generated the mu with Alt-230 (note no leading 0) - ??
- which I remembered from yonks ago, rather than Alt-0181 ??
Paul Ratcliffe wrote:
My reader only does ASCII.
put
charset display utf8
charset outgoing utf8
in ~/.slrnrc
My typewriter did not use ASCII. In fact it didn't use electricity.
I must get it from the shed as it may be worth something!
Or even ??s (-:
My reader only does ASCII.
Time to modernise?
Which version of ASCII does sir prefer?
Plain text, whatever it's number was.
When did I get knighted? I must have missed HRH with a sword.
On Wed, 08 Jun 2022 14:52:55 +0100, Stephen Wolstenholme
<steve@easynn.com>
wrote:
My typewriter did not use ASCII. In fact it didn't use electricity.
I must get it from the shed as it may be worth something!
It's probably corroded to buggery if it's been in a shed.
Mother's manual is still in a wardrobe - last time I looked it was still
in good nick. Hasn't been used for well over 40 years of course, and
probably last by me.
On 09/06/2022 10:18, John Williamson wrote:
On 09/06/2022 10:05, Mark Carver wrote:I gather it was a bit of both, the latter being due to the performers not being able to hear the foldback properly. Quite a few were seen ripping
'lip sync' being out (and seriously out) is far more common and easily
achievable this century than in the last !
A classic example was watching the Mamma Mia cast at the platinum jubilee
concert. It was either bad delay settings or really bad miming.
out their earpieces.
There was no opportunity for any proper sound check or rehearsal (unlike a conventional outdoor gig)
For some odd reason, a few messages back the subject line vanished from
this thread can anyone else see this, or in this case, not see it?
Brian
--
--:
This newsgroup posting comes to you directly from...
The Sofa of Brian Gaff...
briang1@blueyonder.co.uk
Blind user, so no pictures please
Note this Signature is meaningless.!
"Mark Carver" <mark.carver@invalid.invalid> wrote in message news:jgdsgbFh5udU1@mid.individual.net...
On 09/06/2022 10:18, John Williamson wrote:
On 09/06/2022 10:05, Mark Carver wrote:I gather it was a bit of both, the latter being due to the performers not
'lip sync' being out (and seriously out) is far more common and easily >>>> achievable this century than in the last !
A classic example was watching the Mamma Mia cast at the platinum
jubilee concert. It was either bad delay settings or really bad miming.
being able to hear the foldback properly. Quite a few were seen ripping
out their earpieces.
There was no opportunity for any proper sound check or rehearsal (unlike
a conventional outdoor gig)
The subject line still reads "Re: Satellite multiplex 11307H - copy of Freeview PSB2 Bilsdale" for me, both on Windows Live Mail via Eternal September news server and on Thunderbird via Plusnet server.
I wonder if it has mutated somehow in a way that is preventing your screen reader software being able to interpret it.
"Brian Gaff" <brian1gaff@gmail.com> wrote in message news:t7v41s$aeb$1@dont-email.me...
For some odd reason, a few messages back the subject line vanished from
this thread can anyone else see this, or in this case, not see it?
Brian
--
--:
This newsgroup posting comes to you directly from...
The Sofa of Brian Gaff...
briang1@blueyonder.co.uk
Blind user, so no pictures please
Note this Signature is meaningless.!
"Mark Carver" <mark.carver@invalid.invalid> wrote in message
news:jgdsgbFh5udU1@mid.individual.net...
On 09/06/2022 10:18, John Williamson wrote:
On 09/06/2022 10:05, Mark Carver wrote:I gather it was a bit of both, the latter being due to the performers
'lip sync' being out (and seriously out) is far more common and easily >>>>> achievable this century than in the last !
A classic example was watching the Mamma Mia cast at the platinum
jubilee concert. It was either bad delay settings or really bad miming. >>>>
not being able to hear the foldback properly. Quite a few were seen
ripping out their earpieces.
There was no opportunity for any proper sound check or rehearsal (unlike >>> a conventional outdoor gig)
The subject line still reads "Re: Satellite multiplex 11307H - copy of Freeview PSB2 Bilsdale" for me, both on Windows Live Mail via Eternal September news server and on Thunderbird via Plusnet server.
I wonder if it has mutated somehow in a way that is preventing your screen reader software being able to interpret it.
"Brian Gaff" <brian1gaff@gmail.com> wrote in message news:t7v41s$aeb$1@dont-email.me...
For some odd reason, a few messages back the subject line vanished from
this thread can anyone else see this, or in this case, not see it?
Brian
--
--:
This newsgroup posting comes to you directly from...
The Sofa of Brian Gaff...
briang1@blueyonder.co.uk
Blind user, so no pictures please
Note this Signature is meaningless.!
"Mark Carver" <mark.carver@invalid.invalid> wrote in message
news:jgdsgbFh5udU1@mid.individual.net...
On 09/06/2022 10:18, John Williamson wrote:
On 09/06/2022 10:05, Mark Carver wrote:I gather it was a bit of both, the latter being due to the performers
'lip sync' being out (and seriously out) is far more common and easily >>>>> achievable this century than in the last !
A classic example was watching the Mamma Mia cast at the platinum
jubilee concert. It was either bad delay settings or really bad miming. >>>>
not being able to hear the foldback properly. Quite a few were seen
ripping out their earpieces.
There was no opportunity for any proper sound check or rehearsal (unlike >>> a conventional outdoor gig)
The subject line still reads "Re: Satellite multiplex 11307H - copy of Freeview PSB2 Bilsdale" for me, both on Windows Live Mail via Eternal September news server and on Thunderbird via Plusnet server.
I wonder if it has mutated somehow in a way that is preventing your screen reader software being able to interpret it.
"Brian Gaff" <brian1gaff@gmail.com> wrote in message news:t7v41s$aeb$1@dont-email.me...
For some odd reason, a few messages back the subject line vanished from
this thread can anyone else see this, or in this case, not see it?
Brian
--
--:
This newsgroup posting comes to you directly from...
The Sofa of Brian Gaff...
briang1@blueyonder.co.uk
Blind user, so no pictures please
Note this Signature is meaningless.!
"Mark Carver" <mark.carver@invalid.invalid> wrote in message
news:jgdsgbFh5udU1@mid.individual.net...
On 09/06/2022 10:18, John Williamson wrote:
On 09/06/2022 10:05, Mark Carver wrote:I gather it was a bit of both, the latter being due to the performers
'lip sync' being out (and seriously out) is far more common and easily >>>>> achievable this century than in the last !
A classic example was watching the Mamma Mia cast at the platinum
jubilee concert. It was either bad delay settings or really bad miming. >>>>
not being able to hear the foldback properly. Quite a few were seen
ripping out their earpieces.
There was no opportunity for any proper sound check or rehearsal (unlike >>> a conventional outdoor gig)
Yes it changes a few messages back t just a blank. Its probably got a >character in it that is not catered for in my current settings.
That forces it to a new character set and if the reader does not support it >it just leaves it blank.[]
I sometimes wish all the youngsters could have permanent imogees off
switch.
Usenet was designed to be 7 bit, so operate it in 7 bit I damned well will.
"u" has long been used for "mu" in all sorts of places.
"joe bloggs" <reel.sounds.of...@gmail.com> wrote in message news:92902d13-264f-4f90...@googlegroups.com...
Here's the obvious catch, if you are delaying a programme through a framestore you are also delaying the picture with respect to the sound (which did not pass through a framestore). To make this correct again
you
had an audio delay in line with the audio. Typically these audio delays would have two reference video inputs too, one video input was the
incoming 'raw' undelayed video (Fgr) and the other would be the output
of
the local SPG feeding the framestore (now either Ft or Ftvs). The audio delay unit would measure the difference between the two reference
signals
and drop in a matching delay in the audio path. You can see now that Coronation Street is extremely likely to be in a different place 'in
time
and space' from one ITV company to another so if you are in a position
to
listen to the output of both companies at the same time it is very
likely
their will be a difference in audio timing between the two sources.
Ah, did/does the design of frame stores and SPGs not include an equivalent delay for the sound and, nowadays, any other data streams such as
subtitles?
test to see if sub line comes back.
Please ignore
Brian
--
--:
This newsgroup posting comes to you directly from...
The Sofa of Brian Gaff...
briang1@blueyonder.co.uk
Blind user, so no pictures please
Note this Signature is meaningless.!
"joe bloggs" <reel.sounds.of.the.seventies@gmail.com> wrote in message news:a781d0fa-74d5-4413-ab2e-0cc80e51273an@googlegroups.com...
On Wednesday, June 8, 2022 at 9:27:56 PM UTC+1, NY wrote:
"joe bloggs" <reel.sounds.of...@gmail.com> wrote in message
news:92902d13-264f-4f90...@googlegroups.com...
Here's the obvious catch, if you are delaying a programme through a
framestore you are also delaying the picture with respect to the sound
(which did not pass through a framestore). To make this correct again
you
had an audio delay in line with the audio. Typically these audio delays
would have two reference video inputs too, one video input was the
incoming 'raw' undelayed video (Fgr) and the other would be the output
of
the local SPG feeding the framestore (now either Ft or Ftvs). The audio
delay unit would measure the difference between the two reference
signals
and drop in a matching delay in the audio path. You can see now that
Coronation Street is extremely likely to be in a different place 'in
time
and space' from one ITV company to another so if you are in a position
to
listen to the output of both companies at the same time it is very
likely
their will be a difference in audio timing between the two sources.
Ah, did/does the design of frame stores and SPGs not include an
equivalent
delay for the sound and, nowadays, any other data streams such as
subtitles?
I'm not sure I understand your query. In the days of analogue, framestores were designed to synchronise remote video sources to your local video sources. They were not designed to deal with audio - that is why separate audio delay units were required. The delay through the framestore and its associated audio delay unit obviously depended on the timing difference between the incoming video and your local SPG - this would be variable as
the two elements were always 'moving' with respect to one another. And of course as programmes were switched around the ITV network between
different companies as the day progressed so the delay varied willy nilly
as it were. I cannot speak about 'nowadays' I'm afraid as I have no knowledge.
On Fri, 10 Jun 2022 at 15:46:02, Brian Gaff <brian1gaff@gmail.com> wrote
(my responses usually FOLLOW):
Yes it changes a few messages back t just a blank. Its probably got a
character in it that is not catered for in my current settings.
It's still there as I see it, even in your posting.
[]
That forces it to a new character set and if the reader does not
support it
it just leaves it blank.
I sometimes wish all the youngsters could have permanent imogees off
switch.
Sometimes it would be easier if the youngsters just had an off switch.
\\
They probably think the same about us, too (-:
On 10/06/2022 16:27, J. P. Gilliver (John) wrote:
On Fri, 10 Jun 2022 at 15:46:02, Brian Gaff <brian1gaff@gmail.com> wrote
(my responses usually FOLLOW):
Yes it changes a few messages back t just a blank. Its probably got a
character in it that is not catered for in my current settings.
It's still there as I see it, even in your posting.
[]
That forces it to a new character set and if the reader does not
support it
it just leaves it blank.
I sometimes wish all the youngsters could have permanent imogees off
switch.
Sometimes it would be easier if the youngsters just had an off switch.
\\
They probably think the same about us, too (-:
To be honest, Brian Gaff is using an e-mail program and news reader that
ran out of support and was replaced in 2009, but was not 100% standards compliant even then.
That and his screen reader would probably explain the problems he keeps reporting. Time to update, I reckon. It will be a pain, but once he learns the new set of shortcuts, or somebody sighted modifies the defaults to
suit the way he likes to work, most of the problems will go away.
neither use nor ornament
"John Williamson" <johnwilliamson@btinternet.com> wrote in message news:jghe7qF5i7mU1@mid.individual.net...
On 10/06/2022 16:27, J. P. Gilliver (John) wrote:
On Fri, 10 Jun 2022 at 15:46:02, Brian Gaff <brian1gaff@gmail.com> wrote >>> (my responses usually FOLLOW):
Yes it changes a few messages back t just a blank. Its probably got a
character in it that is not catered for in my current settings.
It's still there as I see it, even in your posting.
[]
That forces it to a new character set and if the reader does not
support it
it just leaves it blank.
I sometimes wish all the youngsters could have permanent imogees off
switch.
Sometimes it would be easier if the youngsters just had an off switch.
\\
They probably think the same about us, too (-:
To be honest, Brian Gaff is using an e-mail program and news reader
that ran out of support and was replaced in 2009, but was not 100%
standards compliant even then.
That and his screen reader would probably explain the problems he
keeps reporting. Time to update, I reckon. It will be a pain, but once
he learns the new set of shortcuts, or somebody sighted modifies the
defaults to suit the way he likes to work, most of the problems will
go away.
I cannot comment or criticise because I'm still using Windows Live Mail
from 2009.
Given the recent authentication changes to Gmail, I'm wondering whether
to stay with WLM and enable 2-factor-authorisation so I can create the app-specific password that Gmail over POP now needs, or whether to bite
the bullet and work out how to transfer all my old saved-email folders
and email accounts to Thunderbird which supports the OAuth2
authentication that Gmail would prefer people to use.
Shame that Microsoft didn't produce a "son of WLM" for Windows 8 and 10,
and instead wasted their efforts on the toy "Mail" application which is bundled with those versions and which is so cut-down as to be neither
use nor ornament, as we say in Yorkshire.
Shame that Microsoft didn't produce a "son of WLM" for Windows 8 and 10,
and instead wasted their efforts on the toy "Mail" application which is
bundled with those versions and which is so cut-down as to be neither
use nor ornament, as we say in Yorkshire.
Micro$oft want everyone to use Office 365, which has a decent feature set, but makes it difficult to keep your data private.
Outlook also suffers from having all these features - except one
important one: it does not have a news reader :-(
There is another problem: Outlook costs money, whereas
OE/WM/WLM/Thunderbird are free ;-)
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