They've readily adopted names like Myanmar and recently Kyiv but reported
on a meeting yesterday in Munich. Shouldn't that be München? :)
They've readily adopted names like Myanmar and recently Kyiv but reported
on a meeting yesterday in Munich. Shouldn't that be München? :)
On Sun, 20 Feb 2022 at 12:41:55, The Other John <nomail@home.org> wrote
(my responses usually follow points raised):
They've readily adopted names like Myanmar and recently Kyiv but reportedYes, and it does tend to reinforce thoughts of the 1939 (?) Munich.
on a meeting yesterday in Munich. Shouldn't that be München? :)
I think there are two aspects to it:
In some cases, there is a distinct and different English name for the
place - Munich, Cologne, Vienna, and Moscow for example, and maybe Rome,
and in those cases we tend to keep using the English name. (Other
nations do the same - Londres and Douvres for example.)
then there are cases where the name has changed significantly, such as
Burma to Myanmar. (Though I don't know what the locals called it when we
were calling it Burma.) Or Ceylon to Sri Lanka. Often (as in Ceylon) to
do with significant political changes in the area/country concerned.
Then there are the cases where we basically try to use the local name,
but subsequently with improved communication, we realise we were getting
it very wrong, and amend our pronunciation (or sometimes just spelling)
to reflect the local version more closely: the most obvious example to
me is Peking becoming Beijing. I'm _guessing_ that Kiev becoming Kyiv is along these lines.
Then there are the cases where we just switch to a more logical spelling
than the fudge we originally adopted, usually where a different alphabet
is involved. We do this inconsistently though: we've mostly changed from Djakarta to Jakarta, but still stick to the awkward spelling (I have
seen the more logical one, and it's commoner in French and German) of
the composer Chaikovsky. [The T is totally unnecessary but we stick with
it.] Some of that is to do with existing data - any such change makes
finding things more difficult.
For a bit of fun, see if you can find Jaywick Sands on this map from the
cold war: http://255soft.uk/temp/Polishmap.jpg
On Sun 20/02/2022 14:23, J. P. Gilliver (John) wrote:
On Sun, 20 Feb 2022 at 12:41:55, The Other John <nomail@home.org>
wrote (my responses usually follow points raised):
They've readily adopted names like Myanmar and recently Kyiv but reported >>> on a meeting yesterday in Munich. Shouldn't that be München? :)Yes, and it does tend to reinforce thoughts of the 1939 (?) Munich.
I think there are two aspects to it:
In some cases, there is a distinct and different English name for
the place - Munich, Cologne, Vienna, and Moscow for example, and
maybe Rome, and in those cases we tend to keep using the English
name. (Other nations do the same - Londres and Douvres for example.)
then there are cases where the name has changed significantly, such
as Burma to Myanmar. (Though I don't know what the locals called it
when we were calling it Burma.) Or Ceylon to Sri Lanka. Often (as in >>Ceylon) to do with significant political changes in the area/country >>concerned.
Then there are the cases where we basically try to use the local
name, but subsequently with improved communication, we realise we
were getting it very wrong, and amend our pronunciation (or sometimes
just spelling) to reflect the local version more closely: the most
obvious example to me is Peking becoming Beijing. I'm _guessing_ that
Kiev becoming Kyiv is along these lines.
Then there are the cases where we just switch to a more logical
spelling than the fudge we originally adopted, usually where a
different alphabet is involved. We do this inconsistently though:
we've mostly changed from Djakarta to Jakarta, but still stick to the >>awkward spelling (I have seen the more logical one, and it's commoner
in French and German) of the composer Chaikovsky. [The T is totally >>unnecessary but we stick with it.] Some of that is to do with
existing data - any such change makes finding things more difficult.
For a bit of fun, see if you can find Jaywick Sands on this map from
the cold war: http://255soft.uk/temp/Polishmap.jpg
Dzejlyk Sendz?
On Sun, 20 Feb 2022 at 14:56:08, Woody <harrogate3@ntlworld.com> wrote
OK, maybe it wasn't hard that way round. When I first encountered thatFor a bit of fun, see if you can find Jaywick Sands on this map from
the cold war: http://255soft.uk/temp/Polishmap.jpg
Dzejlyk Sendz?
map, I had fun identifying where the places were, and that one was the one
I had the most difficulty with!
For anyone else struggling - I've put some crib clues in the comments
section of the .jpg; the most unfamiliar is that the sound of the English
W is, in Polish, shown as an L with a mark across it (and where they use W
it is pronounced as either the English V or voiced TH [as in "the"]).
I just enjoyed them! Hejstynz, Bekshyl, Byleriki, Magyt, Greiz-Ferek, Dzylynem, Czeryng ...
"J. P. Gilliver (John)" <G6JPG@255soft.uk> wrote in message >news:Lb+SRlkGzlEiFwjg@a.a...[]
On Sun, 20 Feb 2022 at 14:56:08, Woody <harrogate3@ntlworld.com> wrote
For a bit of fun, see if you can find Jaywick Sands on this map
from the cold war: http://255soft.uk/temp/Polishmap.jpg
For anyone else struggling - I've put some crib clues in the comments >>section of the .jpg; the most unfamiliar is that the sound of the
English W is, in Polish, shown as an L with a mark across it (and
where they use W it is pronounced as either the English V or voiced
TH [as in "the"]).
I just enjoyed them! Hejstynz, Bekshyl, Byleriki, Magyt, Greiz-Ferek, >>Dzylynem, Czeryng ...
Greiz-Ferek is the only one of those I can't work out. Are *all* the
names on the map phonetic representations, or have any of them been
partly translated? Could Grejz-Ferek be Gravesend? Given "Brejntri",
"ej" is pronounced "ay", so the first word is pronounced "Grays". But
where is Grays-ferek?
I love Stensyd Mauntfyczyt ;-)
I remember reading an Inspector Morse short story (Evans Gets an O
Level) in which a prisoner studies for a German O level and writes a
letter to his solicitor in which he describes his escape plan, to meet >someone in Neugraben. Took me a while to work that one out - and Morse
wasn't quite quick enough either...
(J is often a y-sound in European languages.) As near I can tell, a K at
the end of words is often used just to indicate that the vowel before it
is a short one, rather than actually being pronounced as such; I think
it's Greys-Ferry. I don't think there's any actual translation, apart from W-a for isle of, and Przyl for I don't know what but it occurs a lot.
I love Stensyd Mauntfyczyt ;-)
And Czpyng-Onga, Epldo, Hajw, Njuhejwn, ... they all raise a smile, especially the ones with that L-cross for W.
I remember reading an Inspector Morse short story (Evans Gets an O Level) >>in which a prisoner studies for a German O level and writes a letter to
his solicitor in which he describes his escape plan, to meet someone in >>Neugraben. Took me a while to work that one out - and Morse wasn't quite >>quick enough either...
Newgate? Though that should be Neugasse. Makes me think of der
Jammerwoch - or the Germanic tube map.
They've readily adopted names like Myanmar and recently Kyiv but reported
on a meeting yesterday in Munich. Shouldn't that be München? :)
--
TOJ.
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