My radio controlled clock is running more than 1 minute fast. I
thought these clocks were supposed to be accurate within two seconds
in 10,000 years. It is certainly not 300,000 years old!
I have tried resetting but this makes no difference. My only thought
is that it is an analogue clock and there could be something wrong
with the gears. Can I adjust it?
On 18/09/2021 10:45, Scott wrote:
My radio controlled clock is running more than 1 minute fast. I
thought these clocks were supposed to be accurate within two seconds
in 10,000 years. It is certainly not 300,000 years old!
I have tried resetting but this makes no difference. My only thought
is that it is an analogue clock and there could be something wrong
with the gears. Can I adjust it?
With most of those analogue clocks, you can move the hands so could
easily be displaying the wrong time.
Don't forget most radio controlled clocks only synchronise to MSF or
DCF77 once a day.
You mean I may be able to do this? Some dismantling would be needed
Don't forget most radio controlled clocks only synchronise to MSF orI took the battery out and put it back in again so it was
DCF77 once a day.
synchronised.
On 18/09/2021 11:50, Scott wrote:
You mean I may be able to do this? Some dismantling would be needed
Don't forget most radio controlled clocks only synchronise to MSF orI took the battery out and put it back in again so it was
DCF77 once a day.
synchronised.
Up to you but on some the hands are not fixed to the drive shaft and can
be moved. The synchronising system does not know where the hand is
pointing.
My radio controlled clock is running more than 1 minute fast. I
thought these clocks were supposed to be accurate within two seconds
in 10,000 years. It is certainly not 300,000 years old!
I have tried resetting but this makes no difference. My only thought
is that it is an analogue clock and there could be something wrong
with the gears. Can I adjust it?
On 18/09/2021 11:50, Scott wrote:
You mean I may be able to do this? Some dismantling would be needed
Don't forget most radio controlled clocks only synchronise to MSF orI took the battery out and put it back in again so it was
DCF77 once a day.
synchronised.
Up to you but on some the hands are not fixed to the drive shaft and can
be moved. The synchronising system does not know where the hand is
pointing.
On Sat, 18 Sep 2021 12:40:39 +0100, MB <MB@nospam.net> wrote:
On 18/09/2021 11:50, Scott wrote:Thanks. The diagnosis was correct but the repair was less successful.
You mean I may be able to do this? Some dismantling would be needed
Don't forget most radio controlled clocks only synchronise to MSF orI took the battery out and put it back in again so it was
DCF77 once a day.
synchronised.
Up to you but on some the hands are not fixed to the drive shaft and can
be moved. The synchronising system does not know where the hand is >>pointing.
After removing 10 screws I was able to remove the glass and get to the
hands. However, the circle with the numbers on it had become
detached. I tried to glue it but the glue escaped and got on the
circle. I tried to remove the glue with a solvent and this damaged
the number 12.
Is this a good clock or just an expensive name: >https://www.johnlewis.com/lascelles-radio-controlled-arabic-numeral-analogue- >wall-clock-36cm/black/p4999121?sku=238703193&s_ppc=2dx92700065449632389&tmad=c&t
mcampid=2&gclid=CjwKCAjw4qCKBhAVEiwAkTYsPJvNSj2F-FPQgvmODZqY2gKxDbkiLQQi1Cu25eyP
Ow3Y9XXsM6nvzBoCfs0QAvD_BwE&gclsrc=aw.ds
On Sat, 18 Sep 2021 12:40:39 +0100, MB <MB@nospam.net> wrote:FPQgvmODZqY2gKxDbkiLQQi1Cu25eyPOw3Y9XXsM6nvzBoCfs0QAvD_BwE&gclsrc=aw.ds
On 18/09/2021 11:50, Scott wrote:Thanks. The diagnosis was correct but the repair was less successful.
You mean I may be able to do this? Some dismantling would be needed
Don't forget most radio controlled clocks only synchronise to MSF orI took the battery out and put it back in again so it was
DCF77 once a day.
synchronised.
Up to you but on some the hands are not fixed to the drive shaft and can
be moved. The synchronising system does not know where the hand is
pointing.
After removing 10 screws I was able to remove the glass and get to the
hands. However, the circle with the numbers on it had become
detached. I tried to glue it but the glue escaped and got on the
circle. I tried to remove the glue with a solvent and this damaged
the number 12.
Is this a good clock or just an expensive name: https://www.johnlewis.com/lascelles-radio-controlled-arabic-numeral-analogue-wall-clock-36cm/black/p4999121?sku=238703193&s_ppc=2dx92700065449632389&tmad=c&tmcampid=2&gclid=CjwKCAjw4qCKBhAVEiwAkTYsPJvNSj2F-
On 20/09/2021 12:57, Scott wrote:FPQgvmODZqY2gKxDbkiLQQi1Cu25eyPOw3Y9XXsM6nvzBoCfs0QAvD_BwE&gclsrc=aw.ds
On Sat, 18 Sep 2021 12:40:39 +0100, MB <MB@nospam.net> wrote:
On 18/09/2021 11:50, Scott wrote:Thanks. The diagnosis was correct but the repair was less successful.
You mean I may be able to do this? Some dismantling would be needed
Don't forget most radio controlled clocks only synchronise to MSF or >>>>> DCF77 once a day.I took the battery out and put it back in again so it was
synchronised.
Up to you but on some the hands are not fixed to the drive shaft and can >>> be moved. The synchronising system does not know where the hand is
pointing.
After removing 10 screws I was able to remove the glass and get to the
hands. However, the circle with the numbers on it had become
detached. I tried to glue it but the glue escaped and got on the
circle. I tried to remove the glue with a solvent and this damaged
the number 12.
Is this a good clock or just an expensive name:
https://www.johnlewis.com/lascelles-radio-controlled-arabic-numeral-analogue-wall-clock-36cm/black/p4999121?sku=238703193&s_ppc=2dx92700065449632389&tmad=c&tmcampid=2&gclid=CjwKCAjw4qCKBhAVEiwAkTYsPJvNSj2F-
An expensive name, certainly. I've got a (not radio controlled)
Lascelles mantle clock. I had to fiddle with it a lot to get it to work >without the hands fouling each other. The movement looks like it cost
about 20p.
I wondered. My granny used to say that you get what you pay for, but
in the modern world I think this is now fake news.
On 20/09/2021 12:57, Scott wrote:FPQgvmODZqY2gKxDbkiLQQi1Cu25eyPOw3Y9XXsM6nvzBoCfs0QAvD_BwE&gclsrc=aw.ds
On Sat, 18 Sep 2021 12:40:39 +0100, MB <MB@nospam.net> wrote:
On 18/09/2021 11:50, Scott wrote:Thanks. The diagnosis was correct but the repair was less successful.
You mean I may be able to do this? Some dismantling would be needed
Don't forget most radio controlled clocks only synchronise to MSF or >>>>> DCF77 once a day.I took the battery out and put it back in again so it was
synchronised.
Up to you but on some the hands are not fixed to the drive shaft and can >>> be moved. The synchronising system does not know where the hand is
pointing.
After removing 10 screws I was able to remove the glass and get to the
hands. However, the circle with the numbers on it had become
detached. I tried to glue it but the glue escaped and got on the
circle. I tried to remove the glue with a solvent and this damaged
the number 12.
Is this a good clock or just an expensive name:
https://www.johnlewis.com/lascelles-radio-controlled-arabic-numeral-analogue-wall-clock-36cm/black/p4999121?sku=238703193&s_ppc=2dx92700065449632389&tmad=c&tmcampid=2&gclid=CjwKCAjw4qCKBhAVEiwAkTYsPJvNSj2F-
An expensive name, certainly. I've got a (not radio controlled)
Lascelles mantle clock. I had to fiddle with it a lot to get it to work >without the hands fouling each other. The movement looks like it cost
about 20p.
In article <fitgkgl2ucs9bqsmf7lp3b9q1nu2aii4te@4ax.com>, Scott ><newsgroups@gefion.myzen.co.uk> scribeth thus
On Sat, 18 Sep 2021 12:40:39 +0100, MB <MB@nospam.net> wrote:
On 18/09/2021 11:50, Scott wrote:Thanks. The diagnosis was correct but the repair was less successful. >>After removing 10 screws I was able to remove the glass and get to the >>hands. However, the circle with the numbers on it had become
You mean I may be able to do this? Some dismantling would be needed
Don't forget most radio controlled clocks only synchronise to MSF or >>>>> DCF77 once a day.I took the battery out and put it back in again so it was
synchronised.
Up to you but on some the hands are not fixed to the drive shaft and can >>>be moved. The synchronising system does not know where the hand is >>>pointing.
detached. I tried to glue it but the glue escaped and got on the
circle. I tried to remove the glue with a solvent and this damaged
the number 12.
Is this a good clock or just an expensive name: >>https://www.johnlewis.com/lascelles-radio-controlled-arabic-numeral-analogue- >>wall-clock-36cm/black/p4999121?sku=238703193&s_ppc=2dx92700065449632389&tmad=c&t
mcampid=2&gclid=CjwKCAjw4qCKBhAVEiwAkTYsPJvNSj2F-FPQgvmODZqY2gKxDbkiLQQi1Cu25eyP
Ow3Y9XXsM6nvzBoCfs0QAvD_BwE&gclsrc=aw.ds
Dunno about that but I'd like this one for Xmas for the workshop;)... >https://shop.iwm.org.uk/Replica-Duxford-RAF-sector-clock
On 20/09/2021 14:31, Scott wrote:
I wondered. My granny used to say that you get what you pay for, butMy dad used to say that you get no more than you pay for...
in the modern world I think this is now fake news.
On Mon, 20 Sep 2021 14:25:44 +0100, Max DemianFPQgvmODZqY2gKxDbkiLQQi1Cu25eyPOw3Y9XXsM6nvzBoCfs0QAvD_BwE&gclsrc=aw.ds
<max_demian@bigfoot.com> wrote:
On 20/09/2021 12:57, Scott wrote:
On Sat, 18 Sep 2021 12:40:39 +0100, MB <MB@nospam.net> wrote:
On 18/09/2021 11:50, Scott wrote:Thanks. The diagnosis was correct but the repair was less successful.
You mean I may be able to do this? Some dismantling would be needed >>>>>> Don't forget most radio controlled clocks only synchronise to MSF or >>>>>> DCF77 once a day.
I took the battery out and put it back in again so it was
synchronised.
Up to you but on some the hands are not fixed to the drive shaft and can >>>> be moved. The synchronising system does not know where the hand is
pointing.
After removing 10 screws I was able to remove the glass and get to the
hands. However, the circle with the numbers on it had become
detached. I tried to glue it but the glue escaped and got on the
circle. I tried to remove the glue with a solvent and this damaged
the number 12.
Is this a good clock or just an expensive name:
https://www.johnlewis.com/lascelles-radio-controlled-arabic-numeral-analogue-wall-clock-36cm/black/p4999121?sku=238703193&s_ppc=2dx92700065449632389&tmad=c&tmcampid=2&gclid=CjwKCAjw4qCKBhAVEiwAkTYsPJvNSj2F-
An expensive name, certainly. I've got a (not radio controlled)
Lascelles mantle clock. I had to fiddle with it a lot to get it to work
without the hands fouling each other. The movement looks like it cost
about 20p.
PS Bargain compared to this one: https://uk.mondaine.com/collections/official-swiss-railways/products/wall-clock-40cm-silver-kitchen-clock-a995-clock-16sbb
Is this a good clock or just an expensive name:
In article <fitgkgl2ucs9bqsmf7lp3b9q1nu2aii4te@4ax.com>, Scott <newsgroups@gefion.myzen.co.uk> scribeth thus
On Sat, 18 Sep 2021 12:40:39 +0100, MB <MB@nospam.net> wrote:
On 18/09/2021 11:50, Scott wrote:Thanks. The diagnosis was correct but the repair was less successful.
You mean I may be able to do this? Some dismantling would be needed
Don't forget most radio controlled clocks only synchronise to MSF or >>>>> DCF77 once a day.I took the battery out and put it back in again so it was
synchronised.
Up to you but on some the hands are not fixed to the drive shaft and can >>> be moved. The synchronising system does not know where the hand is
pointing.
After removing 10 screws I was able to remove the glass and get to the
hands. However, the circle with the numbers on it had become
detached. I tried to glue it but the glue escaped and got on the
circle. I tried to remove the glue with a solvent and this damaged
the number 12.
Is this a good clock or just an expensive name:
https://www.johnlewis.com/lascelles-radio-controlled-arabic-numeral-analogue-
wall-clock-36cm/black/p4999121?sku=238703193&s_ppc=2dx92700065449632389&tmad=c&t
mcampid=2&gclid=CjwKCAjw4qCKBhAVEiwAkTYsPJvNSj2F-FPQgvmODZqY2gKxDbkiLQQi1Cu25eyP
Ow3Y9XXsM6nvzBoCfs0QAvD_BwE&gclsrc=aw.ds
Dunno about that but I'd like this one for Xmas for the workshop;)...
https://shop.iwm.org.uk/Replica-Duxford-RAF-sector-clock
Is this a good clock or just an expensive name: >https://www.johnlewis.com/lascelles-radio-controlled-arabic-numeral-analogue-wall-clock-36cm/black/p4999121?sku=238703193&s_ppc=2dx92700065449632389&tmad=c&tmcampid=2&gclid=CjwKCAjw4qCKBhAVEiwAkTYsPJvNSj2F-FPQgvmODZqY2gKxDbkiLQQi1Cu25eyPOw3Y9XXsM6nvzBoCfs0QAvD_BwE&gclsrc=aw.ds
On Mon, 20 Sep 2021 14:36:04 +0100, John Williamson ><johnwilliamson@btinternet.com> wrote:
On 20/09/2021 14:31, Scott wrote:
I wondered. My granny used to say that you get what you pay for, butMy dad used to say that you get no more than you pay for...
in the modern world I think this is now fake news.
I think that states the position more accurately.
On Mon, 20 Sep 2021 12:57:41 +0100, Scott
<newsgroups@gefion.myzen.co.uk> wrote:
Is this a good clock or just an expensive name:
https://www.johnlewis.com/lascelles-radio-controlled-arabic-numeral-ana logue-wall-clock-36cm/black/p4999121?sku=238703193&s_ppc=2dx927000654496 32389&tmad=c&tmcampid=2&gclid=CjwKCAjw4qCKBhAVEiwAkTYsPJvNSj2F-FPQgvmODZ qY2gKxDbkiLQQi1Cu25eyPOw3Y9XXsM6nvzBoCfs0QAvD_BwE&gclsrc=aw.ds
Type "radio controlled clock" in the Amazon search box and you'll see
lots to choose from at less than half the price. Argos have one in
various colours at 15gbp.
https://shop.iwm.org.uk/Replica-Duxford-RAF-sector-clock
"Quartz movement powered by 1 AA battery (not included)."
Another 20p movement.
I knew drawing bursts of 200mA from batteries would kill them very
quickly and so I trickle charge a 10,000uF capacitor from the battery
and get a transistor to use the capacitor energy to power the timed
pulse I send to the electro-magnet.
Roderick Stewart <rjfs@escapetime.myzen.co.uk> wrote:
On Mon, 20 Sep 2021 12:57:41 +0100, Scott
<newsgroups@gefion.myzen.co.uk> wrote:
Is this a good clock or just an expensive name:
https://www.johnlewis.com/lascelles-radio-controlled-arabic-numeral-ana >logue-wall-clock-36cm/black/p4999121?sku=238703193&s_ppc=2dx927000654496 >32389&tmad=c&tmcampid=2&gclid=CjwKCAjw4qCKBhAVEiwAkTYsPJvNSj2F-FPQgvmODZ >qY2gKxDbkiLQQi1Cu25eyPOw3Y9XXsM6nvzBoCfs0QAvD_BwE&gclsrc=aw.ds
Type "radio controlled clock" in the Amazon search box and you'll see
lots to choose from at less than half the price. Argos have one in
various colours at 15gbp.
I bought a Chinese-made one from Argos a couple of years ago "Accurate
to one second". It never managed to get within 5 seconds of the correct
time because of a programming delay during start-up, so I took it back
and got a refund. I was eventually given a secondhand German one (about
30 years old) by a friend - and that has worked flawlessly.
I expect Argos is still selling the same Chinese rubbish.
https://shop.iwm.org.uk/Replica-Duxford-RAF-sector-clock
"Quartz movement powered by 1 AA battery (not included)."
Another 20p movement.
Bob Latham <bob@sick-of-spam.invalid> wrote:
[...]
I knew drawing bursts of 200mA from batteries would kill them
very quickly and so I trickle charge a 10,000uF capacitor from
the battery and get a transistor to use the capacitor energy to
power the timed pulse I send to the electro-magnet.
Could you recover energy from the inductance of the magnet so as to
partially pre-charge the capacitor for the next pulse? Some
arrangement like a television line output transformer with an
efficiency diode would reduce the overall battery consumption.
Also, could you electronically detect the magnet current and cut it
off as soon as the armature has reached the end of its travel? Any
current after that time is just wasted in the resistance of the
magnet windings.
"Bob Latham" wrote in message news:596f0cf840bob@sick-of-spam.invalid...
Earlier this year I purchased a slave clock from eBay. It's an ex
GPO device out of a Welsh telephone exchange.
Bob are you aware there's a couple of good Facebook groups for
ex-BT south wales staff?
In article <1pftp86.a7w24wc25z40N%liz@poppyrecords.invalid.invalid>,
Liz Tuddenham <liz@poppyrecords.invalid.invalid> wrote:
Bob Latham <bob@sick-of-spam.invalid> wrote:
[...]
I knew drawing bursts of 200mA from batteries would kill them
very quickly and so I trickle charge a 10,000uF capacitor from
the battery and get a transistor to use the capacitor energy to
power the timed pulse I send to the electro-magnet.
Could you recover energy from the inductance of the magnet so as to partially pre-charge the capacitor for the next pulse? Some
arrangement like a television line output transformer with an
efficiency diode would reduce the overall battery consumption.
That's an interesting idea. At the moment I have a diode across the
coil to suppress the back emf so that the transistor doesn't fry.
I'll have to have a look into that idea, thanks.
Also, could you electronically detect the magnet current and cut it
off as soon as the armature has reached the end of its travel? Any
current after that time is just wasted in the resistance of the
magnet windings.
What you say is absolutely correct. The thing is though, I wanted the
"the sound" from back in the day including the timing of operate and
release.
Bob Latham <bob@sick-of-spam.invalid> wrote:
What you say is absolutely correct. The thing is though, I wanted
the "the sound" from back in the day including the timing of
operate and release.
Use a chopper to cut down the current to the minimum that will still
hold the magnetic circuit closed?
Earlier this year I purchased a slave clock from eBay. It's an ex GPO
device out of a Welsh telephone exchange.
These clocks are usually wired in series and rely on a pulse of
around 200mA every 30 seconds from a master clock.
On 21/09/2021 10:39, Roderick Stewart wrote:
On Mon, 20 Sep 2021 19:41:43 +0100, Bob LathamMany moons ago, a friend of mine was in charge of the plant at a large hospital in London. They had a *lot* of slave clocks (Over a thousand
<bob@sick-of-spam.invalid> wrote:
Earlier this year I purchased a slave clock from eBay. It's an ex GPO
device out of a Welsh telephone exchange.
These clocks are usually wired in series and rely on a pulse of
around 200mA every 30 seconds from a master clock.
I remember those from BBC Wood Norton. They were all over the
dormitory areas, and every one of them told a slightly different time.
One of our introductory lectures stressed the importance of accurate
timekeeping because we were now working in broadcasting, but
presumably they meant by using our own watches.
Rod.
rooms, with a clock in each) and a master in the basement, and when the master clock failed, it was cheaper to buy a lot of cheap battery
powered, crystal controlled clocks than repair it.
He found that the cheap clocks were more reliable and more likely to
tell the correct time within a second or two than the slaved ones, even
on a weekly check routine.
On Mon, 20 Sep 2021 19:41:43 +0100, Bob Latham
<bob@sick-of-spam.invalid> wrote:
Earlier this year I purchased a slave clock from eBay. It's an ex GPO
device out of a Welsh telephone exchange.
These clocks are usually wired in series and rely on a pulse of
around 200mA every 30 seconds from a master clock.
I remember those from BBC Wood Norton. They were all over the
dormitory areas, and every one of them told a slightly different time.
One of our introductory lectures stressed the importance of accurate timekeeping because we were now working in broadcasting, but
presumably they meant by using our own watches.
Rod.
On 21/09/2021 11:49, John Williamson wrote:
On 21/09/2021 10:39, Roderick Stewart wrote:Just to add that it would probably be cheaper now to just install a GPS
On Mon, 20 Sep 2021 19:41:43 +0100, Bob LathamMany moons ago, a friend of mine was in charge of the plant at a large
<bob@sick-of-spam.invalid> wrote:
Earlier this year I purchased a slave clock from eBay. It's an ex GPO
device out of a Welsh telephone exchange.
These clocks are usually wired in series and rely on a pulse of
around 200mA every 30 seconds from a master clock.
I remember those from BBC Wood Norton. They were all over the
dormitory areas, and every one of them told a slightly different time.
One of our introductory lectures stressed the importance of accurate
timekeeping because we were now working in broadcasting, but
presumably they meant by using our own watches.
Rod.
hospital in London. They had a *lot* of slave clocks (Over a thousand
rooms, with a clock in each) and a master in the basement, and when the
master clock failed, it was cheaper to buy a lot of cheap battery
powered, crystal controlled clocks than repair it.
He found that the cheap clocks were more reliable and more likely to
tell the correct time within a second or two than the slaved ones, even
on a weekly check routine.
unit in each room, as long as you could get a signal than install a >master/slave system.
On 21/09/2021 11:49, John Williamson wrote:[]
Many moons ago, a friend of mine was in charge of the plant at a largeJust to add that it would probably be cheaper now to just install a GPS
hospital in London. They had a *lot* of slave clocks (Over a thousand
rooms, with a clock in each) and a master in the basement, and when the
master clock failed, it was cheaper to buy a lot of cheap battery
powered, crystal controlled clocks than repair it.
He found that the cheap clocks were more reliable and more likely to
tell the correct time within a second or two than the slaved ones, even
on a weekly check routine.
unit in each room, as long as you could get a signal than install a >master/slave system.
On Mon, 20 Sep 2021 19:41:43 +0100, Bob Latham
<bob@sick-of-spam.invalid> wrote:
Earlier this year I purchased a slave clock from eBay. It's an ex GPO >>device out of a Welsh telephone exchange.
These clocks are usually wired in series and rely on a pulse of
around 200mA every 30 seconds from a master clock.
I remember those from BBC Wood Norton. They were all over the
dormitory areas, and every one of them told a slightly different time.
One of our introductory lectures stressed the importance of accurate timekeeping because we were now working in broadcasting, but
presumably they meant by using our own watches.
On 21/09/2021 10:39, Roderick Stewart wrote:
On Mon, 20 Sep 2021 19:41:43 +0100, Bob Latham
<bob@sick-of-spam.invalid> wrote:
Earlier this year I purchased a slave clock from eBay. It's an ex GPO
device out of a Welsh telephone exchange.
These clocks are usually wired in series and rely on a pulse of
around 200mA every 30 seconds from a master clock.
I remember those from BBC Wood Norton. They were all over the
dormitory areas, and every one of them told a slightly different
time. One of our introductory lectures stressed the importance of
accurate timekeeping because we were now working in broadcasting,
but presumably they meant by using our own watches.
Rod.
Many moons ago, a friend of mine was in charge of the plant at a
large hospital in London. They had a *lot* of slave clocks (Over a
thousand rooms, with a clock in each) and a master in the basement,
and when the master clock failed, it was cheaper to buy a lot of
cheap battery powered, crystal controlled clocks than repair it.
He found that the cheap clocks were more reliable and more likely
to tell the correct time within a second or two than the slaved
ones, even on a weekly check routine.
On Tue, 21 Sep 2021 11:51:58 +0100, John Williamson ><johnwilliamson@btinternet.com> wrote:[]
Just to add that it would probably be cheaper now to just install a GPS >>unit in each room, as long as you could get a signal than install a >>master/slave system.
Why would GPS be better than MSF, where the thread started?
Why would GPS be better than MSF, where the thread started?
On Tue, 21 Sep 2021 at 12:22:32, Scott <newsgroups@gefion.myzen.co.uk>
wrote (my responses usually follow points raised):
On Tue, 21 Sep 2021 11:51:58 +0100, John Williamson >><johnwilliamson@btinternet.com> wrote:[]
Just to add that it would probably be cheaper now to just install a GPS >>>unit in each room, as long as you could get a signal than install a >>>master/slave system.
Why would GPS be better than MSF, where the thread started?
Not better, but might be cheaper and/or work better; GPS receivers are
now cheap, common, and compact; I don't think MSF ones are any of those,
and may also (isn't it VLF?) be more orientation- and
position-sensitive.
On Mon, 20 Sep 2021 12:57:41 +0100, ScottFPQgvmODZqY2gKxDbkiLQQi1Cu25eyPOw3Y9XXsM6nvzBoCfs0QAvD_BwE&gclsrc=aw.ds
<newsgroups@gefion.myzen.co.uk> wrote:
Is this a good clock or just an expensive name: >>https://www.johnlewis.com/lascelles-radio-controlled-arabic-numeral-analogue-wall-clock-36cm/black/p4999121?sku=238703193&s_ppc=2dx92700065449632389&tmad=c&tmcampid=2&gclid=CjwKCAjw4qCKBhAVEiwAkTYsPJvNSj2F-
Type "radio controlled clock" in the Amazon search box and you'll see
lots to choose from at less than half the price. Argos have one in
various colours at 15gbp.
On 21/09/2021 13:48, Scott wrote:
On Tue, 21 Sep 2021 13:20:25 +0100, "J. P. Gilliver (John)"Cheap enough, but all we can tell is that the receiver is smaller than
<G6JPG@255soft.uk> wrote:
On Tue, 21 Sep 2021 at 12:22:32, Scott <newsgroups@gefion.myzen.co.uk>
wrote (my responses usually follow points raised):
On Tue, 21 Sep 2021 11:51:58 +0100, John Williamson[]
<johnwilliamson@btinternet.com> wrote:
Just to add that it would probably be cheaper now to just install a GPS >>>>> unit in each room, as long as you could get a signal than install a
master/slave system.
Why would GPS be better than MSF, where the thread started?
Not better, but might be cheaper and/or work better; GPS receivers are
now cheap, common, and compact; I don't think MSF ones are any of those, >>> and may also (isn't it VLF?) be more orientation- and
position-sensitive.
MSF is certainly compact as it's part of the clock:
https://www.argos.co.uk/product/8438997?clickSR=slp:term:radio%20controlled%20wall%20clock:2:135:1
I'll leave you to decide whether £15 is cheap.
the clock face. The independent module I found is about 200x100x15mm mm, >including the aerial but which needs an external power supply, and which >needs to be that size due to the wavelength of the signal.
My independent Satnav receiver is about 50mm square, and is about 10 mm
thick including a battery that will last up to 12 hours. The circuit
board is about 4mm thick including all components, a bluetooth interface
and a printed on antenna.
On Tue, 21 Sep 2021 13:20:25 +0100, "J. P. Gilliver (John)" <G6JPG@255soft.uk> wrote:
On Tue, 21 Sep 2021 at 12:22:32, Scott <newsgroups@gefion.myzen.co.uk>
wrote (my responses usually follow points raised):
On Tue, 21 Sep 2021 11:51:58 +0100, John Williamson[]
<johnwilliamson@btinternet.com> wrote:
Just to add that it would probably be cheaper now to just install a GPS >>>> unit in each room, as long as you could get a signal than install a
master/slave system.
Why would GPS be better than MSF, where the thread started?
Not better, but might be cheaper and/or work better; GPS receivers are
now cheap, common, and compact; I don't think MSF ones are any of those,
and may also (isn't it VLF?) be more orientation- and
position-sensitive.
MSF is certainly compact as it's part of the clock: https://www.argos.co.uk/product/8438997?clickSR=slp:term:radio%20controlled%20wall%20clock:2:135:1
I'll leave you to decide whether £15 is cheap.
Not better, but might be cheaper and/or work better; GPS receivers are
now cheap, common, and compact; I don't think MSF ones are any of those,
and may also (isn't it VLF?) be more orientation- and
position-sensitive.
In article <1pfukst.g4j32vsv8dymN%liz@poppyrecords.invalid.invalid>,
Liz Tuddenham <liz@poppyrecords.invalid.invalid> wrote:
Bob Latham <bob@sick-of-spam.invalid> wrote:
What you say is absolutely correct. The thing is though, I wanted
the "the sound" from back in the day including the timing of
operate and release.
Use a chopper to cut down the current to the minimum that will still
hold the magnetic circuit closed?
Not exactly sure what you mean by a chopper. Could be pulses with a
changing duty cycle?
The need to run without wires, (God knows there's too many in my
house as it is) means batteries and 6 volts from 4 x AA. As the
battery ages the voltage drops. I suppose what it really needs is a
constant current generator that can change value after say 100mS of
the pulse.
On 21/09/2021 13:20, J. P. Gilliver (John) wrote:
Not better, but might be cheaper and/or work better; GPS receivers are
now cheap, common, and compact; I don't think MSF ones are any of those,
and may also (isn't it VLF?) be more orientation- and
position-sensitive.
The big disadvantage of MSF was it being off one day a week and longer
once a year.
Why does the Anthorn transmitter seem to need so much more maintenance
than ordinary broadcast transmitters?
On 20/09/2021 14:52, tony sayer wrote:
In article <fitgkgl2ucs9bqsmf7lp3b9q1nu2aii4te@4ax.com>, Scottc&t
<newsgroups@gefion.myzen.co.uk> scribeth thus
On Sat, 18 Sep 2021 12:40:39 +0100, MB <MB@nospam.net> wrote:
On 18/09/2021 11:50, Scott wrote:Thanks. The diagnosis was correct but the repair was less successful.
You mean I may be able to do this? Some dismantling would be needed >>>>>> Don't forget most radio controlled clocks only synchronise to MSF or >>>>>> DCF77 once a day.
I took the battery out and put it back in again so it was
synchronised.
Up to you but on some the hands are not fixed to the drive shaft and can >>>> be moved. The synchronising system does not know where the hand is
pointing.
After removing 10 screws I was able to remove the glass and get to the
hands. However, the circle with the numbers on it had become
detached. I tried to glue it but the glue escaped and got on the
circle. I tried to remove the glue with a solvent and this damaged
the number 12.
Is this a good clock or just an expensive name:
https://www.johnlewis.com/lascelles-radio-controlled-arabic-numeral-analogue-
wall-clock-36cm/black/p4999121?sku=238703193&s_ppc=2dx92700065449632389&tmad=
eyPmcampid=2&gclid=CjwKCAjw4qCKBhAVEiwAkTYsPJvNSj2F-FPQgvmODZqY2gKxDbkiLQQi1Cu25
Ow3Y9XXsM6nvzBoCfs0QAvD_BwE&gclsrc=aw.ds
Dunno about that but I'd like this one for Xmas for the workshop;)...
https://shop.iwm.org.uk/Replica-Duxford-RAF-sector-clock
"Quartz movement powered by 1 AA battery (not included)."
Another 20p movement.
On 22/09/2021 09:51, Scott wrote:
Why does the Anthorn transmitter seem to need so much more maintenance
than ordinary broadcast transmitters?
Does it?
It operates 24/7 and only one transmitter so they cannot switch off
leave people to listen to others carrying the same service.
DCF77 has a second transmitter on a different site, MSF could do that
but it would cost a lot more.
It can annoying but not not noecessary for most users.
In article <sif1d1$it9$1@dont-email.me>,
MB <MB@nospam.net> wrote:
On 22/09/2021 09:51, Scott wrote:
Why does the Anthorn transmitter seem to need so much more maintenance
than ordinary broadcast transmitters?
Does it?
It operates 24/7 and only one transmitter so they cannot switch off
leave people to listen to others carrying the same service.
DCF77 has a second transmitter on a different site, MSF could do that
but it would cost a lot more.
yes, they could have kept Rugby. Drove past it on Monday - field full of
wind turbines.
It can annoying but not not noecessary for most users.
On 22/09/2021 09:51, Scott wrote:
Why does the Anthorn transmitter seem to need so much more maintenance
than ordinary broadcast transmitters?
Does it?
It operates 24/7 and only one transmitter so they cannot switch off
leave people to listen to others carrying the same service.
DCF77 has a second transmitter on a different site, MSF could do that
but it would cost a lot more.
It can annoying but not not noecessary for most users.
On Wed, 22 Sep 2021 15:12:41 +0100, charles <charles@candehope.me.uk>
wrote:
In article <sif1d1$it9$1@dont-email.me>,
MB <MB@nospam.net> wrote:
On 22/09/2021 09:51, Scott wrote:
Why does the Anthorn transmitter seem to need so much more maintenance >> > than ordinary broadcast transmitters?
Does it?
It operates 24/7 and only one transmitter so they cannot switch off
leave people to listen to others carrying the same service.
DCF77 has a second transmitter on a different site, MSF could do that
but it would cost a lot more.
yes, they could have kept Rugby. Drove past it on Monday - field full of >wind turbines.
It can annoying but not not noecessary for most users.
What about Droitwich? Could it be used as a reserve transmitter?
In article <grfmkgdtelnjdqal1jo2p7vi5eq824jcdt@4ax.com>,
Scott <newsgroups@gefion.myzen.co.uk> wrote:
On Wed, 22 Sep 2021 15:12:41 +0100, charles <charles@candehope.me.uk>
wrote:
In article <sif1d1$it9$1@dont-email.me>,
MB <MB@nospam.net> wrote:
On 22/09/2021 09:51, Scott wrote:
Why does the Anthorn transmitter seem to need so much more maintenance >> >> > than ordinary broadcast transmitters?
Does it?
It operates 24/7 and only one transmitter so they cannot switch off
leave people to listen to others carrying the same service.
DCF77 has a second transmitter on a different site, MSF could do that
but it would cost a lot more.
yes, they could have kept Rugby. Drove past it on Monday - field full of
wind turbines.
It can annoying but not not noecessary for most users.
What about Droitwich? Could it be used as a reserve transmitter?
somewhat different frequency.
I'm just asking, but if my arithmetic is correct 60kHz is 5000 metres
so the half wavelength is far in excess of the dimensions of the main antenna. Could the same antenna be used for R4 (1515 metres) and the
time transmitter?
On 22/09/2021 09:51, Scott wrote:
Why does the Anthorn transmitter seem to need so much more maintenance
than ordinary broadcast transmitters?
Does it?
It operates 24/7 and only one transmitter so they cannot switch off
leave people to listen to others carrying the same service.
On 22/09/2021 09:51, Scott wrote:
Why does the Anthorn transmitter seem to need so much more maintenance
than ordinary broadcast transmitters?
Does it?
It operates 24/7 and only one transmitter so they cannot switch off
leave people to listen to others carrying the same service.
DCF77 has a second transmitter on a different site, MSF could do that
but it would cost a lot more.
It can annoying but not not noecessary for most users.
In article <sif1d1$it9$1@dont-email.me>,
MB <MB@nospam.net> wrote:
On 22/09/2021 09:51, Scott wrote:
Why does the Anthorn transmitter seem to need so much more maintenance
than ordinary broadcast transmitters?
Does it?
It operates 24/7 and only one transmitter so they cannot switch off
leave people to listen to others carrying the same service.
DCF77 has a second transmitter on a different site, MSF could do that
but it would cost a lot more.
yes, they could have kept Rugby. Drove past it on Monday - field full of
wind turbines.
It can annoying but not not noecessary for most users.
On 22/09/2021 16:37, Scott wrote:
I'm just asking, but if my arithmetic is correct 60kHz is 5000 metres
so the half wavelength is far in excess of the dimensions of the main
antenna. Could the same antenna be used for R4 (1515 metres) and the
time transmitter?
Most professionals seem to use GPS - you will see an antenna on every
mobile radio base station, probably several.
How many use MSF? It is a lot of expense for very few users who can all
use other services.
On 21/09/2021 12:22, Scott wrote:
Not better than MFS, but cheaper than a master/ slave system, which may
Why would GPS be better than MSF, where the thread started?
get its reference via MFS or GPS, or even, in many cases, the mains >frequency.
A GPS receiver now is a cheap way to get a pretty good time reference.
The land based services probably have better indoor coverage, though,
due to the frequency band they use, though they seem to have problems in
many areas of the country, from posts I read here and elsewhere. I can
get a reliable GPS signal even inside the steel cabined, steel hulled
boat I am sitting in, without having to put the aerial outside, though
it does need to be somewhere near a window.
Then again, I can also get a pretty good time signal from the cellular >networks down to an accuracy of a second or less, even without a SIM in
the phone or dongle.
With a bit of cleverness, there are now many excellent time references >available, both via landline or RF sources.
The expensive bit is getting a decent display of the current time. The
20 cent chinese movement is as accurate as its crystal or external
reference lets it be during its life, though while a decent pendulum
system can last for many decades or Centuries with care and regular >maintenance (See Salisbury cathedral clock or the one in the Elizabeth
clock tower in Westminster), the machine assembled cheapie will be as >accurate as an expensive hand assembled one and is cheap enough to throw
away when it fails.
OK but how do you stop her indoors from putting the damm thing 5, or 10
mins fast then?....
Scott wrote:
Why does the Anthorn transmitter seem to need so much more maintenance
than ordinary broadcast transmitters?
Does it?
On 22/09/2021 20:09, tony sayer wrote:
OK but how do you stop her indoors from putting the damm thing 5, or 10That is a PEBKAC type problem, and has nothing to do with the hardware.
mins fast then?....
How many use MSF? It is a lot of expense for very few users who can all
use other services.
MB wrote:
Scott wrote:
Why does the Anthorn transmitter seem to need so much more maintenance
than ordinary broadcast transmitters?
Does it?
4 hour downtime every 3 months
<https://www.npl.co.uk/msf-signal>
Andy Burns wrote:
4 hour downtime every 3 months
I was going by the earlier comment (by MB) about it 'being off one day
a week and longer once a year.'
This appears to be 'fake news' (though there is the potential for a
two week shutdown* during the summer). *possibly day only.
On Wed, 22 Sep 2021 20:28:52 +0100, John Williamson <johnwilliamson@btinternet.com> wrote:
On 22/09/2021 20:09, tony sayer wrote:
OK but how do you stop her indoors from putting the damm thing 5, or 10That is a PEBKAC type problem, and has nothing to do with the hardware.
mins fast then?....
Shouldn't that be PEBCAC? I'm struggling to think what K could stand
for, but can think of plenty of things beginning with C.
Rod.
I think they have had longer maintenance windows in the past.
Andy Burns wrote:
I think they have had longer maintenance windows in the past.
Probably mast painting and stay greasing, could be that the newer site does not
require that now as maintenance systems have improved. I think even during the
longer maintenance windows the service would run for a period overnight which should have been sufficient for most radio-controlled clocks but not for many other users though most will have migrated to DCF77 or GPS.
It might not seem important but if you are running a system requiring accurate
synchronisation, it needs to quickly synchronise on switch on or after a loss of
mains supply.
Years ago we had a couple of analogue TV transposers which used GPS to ensure the carrier frequency was more accurate that normal (courtesy of the Irish!), I
can't remember now but they synchronised very quickly.
On 23/09/2021 09:28, Roderick Stewart wrote:
On Wed, 22 Sep 2021 20:28:52 +0100, John WilliamsonProblem Exists Between Keyboard And Chair.
<johnwilliamson@btinternet.com> wrote:
On 22/09/2021 20:09, tony sayer wrote:
OK but how do you stop her indoors from putting the damm thing 5, or 10 >>>> mins fast then?....That is a PEBKAC type problem, and has nothing to do with the hardware.
Shouldn't that be PEBCAC? I'm struggling to think what K could stand
for, but can think of plenty of things beginning with C.
Rod.
In this case, the keyboard is the set of little adjustment buttons or
the rotary doofrit on the movement.
On 23/09/2021 10:07, Andy Burns wrote:
I think they have had longer maintenance windows in the past.
Probably mast painting and stay greasing, could be that the newer site
does not require that now as maintenance systems have improved. I think even during the longer maintenance windows the service would run for a
period overnight which should have been sufficient for most
radio-controlled clocks but not for many other users though most will
have migrated to DCF77 or GPS.
It might not seem important but if you are running a system requiring accurate synchronisation, it needs to quickly synchronise on switch on
or after a loss of mains supply.
MB wrote:
Andy Burns wrote:
I think they have had longer maintenance windows in the past.
Probably mast painting and stay greasing, could be that the newer site does not
require that now as maintenance systems have improved. I think even during the
longer maintenance windows the service would run for a period overnight which
should have been sufficient for most radio-controlled clocks but not for many
other users though most will have migrated to DCF77 or GPS.
An emergency services customer was using MSF and a Wharton receiver when it was
at Rugby, I had to re-align the aerial for Anthorpe as it kept losing signal, they had a second system installed using GPS, I don't believe it ever had an antenna connected, I reported it a time or two, nothing ever happened, it was several minutes adrift last I checked.
They're due to move site later this year and have decided an internet NTP server will do.
It might not seem important but if you are running a system requiring accurate
synchronisation, it needs to quickly synchronise on switch on or after a loss of
mains supply.
I should think worst case "cold start" for GPS (without A-GPS and an outdated almanac) is considerably slower than MSF
Years ago we had a couple of analogue TV transposers which used GPS to ensure
the carrier frequency was more accurate that normal (courtesy of the Irish!), I
can't remember now but they synchronised very quickly.
On Thu, 23 Sep 2021 10:04:01 +0100, John Williamson <johnwilliamson@btinternet.com> wrote:
Problem Exists Between Keyboard And Chair.
In this case, the keyboard is the set of little adjustment buttons or
the rotary doofrit on the movement.
Ah. I always thought it was between computer and chair.
Plenty of things can go wrong with the use of a keyboard.
An emergency services customer was using MSF and a Wharton receiver when it was
at Rugby, I had to re-align the aerial for Anthorpe as it kept losing signal, they had a second system installed using GPS, I don't believe it ever had an antenna connected, I reported it a time or two, nothing ever happened, it was several minutes adrift last I checked.
On 23/09/2021 10:56, MB wrote:
On 23/09/2021 10:07, Andy Burns wrote:
I think they have had longer maintenance windows in the past.
Probably mast painting and stay greasing, could be that the newer site
does not require that now as maintenance systems have improved. I think
even during the longer maintenance windows the service would run for a
period overnight which should have been sufficient for most
radio-controlled clocks but not for many other users though most will
have migrated to DCF77 or GPS.
It might not seem important but if you are running a system requiring
accurate synchronisation, it needs to quickly synchronise on switch on or
after a loss of mains supply.
I don't think there is any intention that the Anthorn transmitter provide
a continuous time signal; radio controlled clocks are expected to have a (presumably quartz) circuit that is synchronised by radio periodically.
I'm just asking, but if my arithmetic is correct 60kHz is 5000 metres
so the half wavelength is far in excess of the dimensions of the main >antenna. Could the same antenna be used for R4 (1515 metres) and the
time transmitter?
On Wed, 22 Sep 2021 17:49:15 +0100, MB <MB@nospam.net> wrote:
How many use MSF? It is a lot of expense for very few users who can all >>use other services.
There are possibly millions of radio controlled clocks in households
all over the country that would be rendered useless if the service
were discontinued.
It's not an obsolete system like medium wave radio which is now--
effectively duplicated everywhere, and for which nearly everyone can
be expected to have an alternative. Domestic radio controlled clocks
and weather stations are sold in ever increasing variety via shops and
online vendors, and they are all dependent on the signal from either
MSF or DCF to enable them to work.
Rod.
Most have a quartz clock backup; I suspect the majority only have the accurate time as a novelty that's nice to have.
A GPS receiver designed as time standard can cold start quickly. It can
make the assumption that it hasn’t moved since it was last powered on.
On Thu, 23 Sep 2021 at 17:38:51, Tweed <usenet.tweed@gmail.com> wrote
(my responses usually follow points raised):
[]
A GPS receiver designed as time standard can cold start quickly. It canI remember in the early days of GPS, when there weren't many satellites
make the assumption that it hasn’t moved since it was last powered on.
up, Dave Green at Baddow proudly showing me a GPS receiver system (it
was IIRR a full-length ISA or PCI card - he had an unusual laptop that
could take such a card, IIRR), and proudly (though tongue-in cheek)
telling me that B block (the building we were in) was proceeding north
at half a knot, or something like that ... (-:
Im surprised it’s not possible to buy consumer grade clocks that use Wi-Fi to connect to the local network and then use NTP to get the time.
Tweed wrote:
Im surprised it’s not possible to buy consumer grade clocks that use Wi-Fi >> to connect to the local network and then use NTP to get the time.
<https://ao.com/product/lenovo-68674-301.aspx>
Ok, it does more than a clock.
Not so bad but a little pricey, but not nearly as expensive as the NTP
clocks I’ve so far discovered.
On 23/09/2021 22:25, J. P. Gilliver (John) wrote:
Most have a quartz clock backup; I suspect the majority only have the accurate time as a novelty that's nice to have.
I always like to have an accurate clock, I used to have my (RDS) clock
radio set to switch on at 0700h and got some satisfaction from the radio switching on exactly on the last of the GTS pips.
There are possibly millions of radio controlled clocks in households
all over the country that would be rendered useless if the service
were discontinued.
Most have a quartz clock backup; I suspect the majority only have the >accurate time as a novelty that's nice to have.
On 23/09/2021 22:25, J. P. Gilliver (John) wrote:
Most have a quartz clock backup; I suspect the majority only have the
accurate time as a novelty that's nice to have.
I always like to have an accurate clock, I used to have my (RDS) clock
radio set to switch on at 0700h and got some satisfaction from the radio switching on exactly on the last of the GTS pips.
In article <siitnv$l71$1@dont-email.me>,
MB <MB@nospam.net> wrote:
On 23/09/2021 22:25, J. P. Gilliver (John) wrote:
Most have a quartz clock backup; I suspect the majority only have the
accurate time as a novelty that's nice to have.
I always like to have an accurate clock, I used to have my (RDS) clock
radio set to switch on at 0700h and got some satisfaction from the radio
switching on exactly on the last of the GTS pips.
It helps when going to catch a train
Really? My cheap Casio wristwatch (looks the same as one of their early models, other than being blue) drifts by less than two or three seconds
a month; I can't see train-catching needing more accuracy than that. (Obviously I had to set it once.)
On Tue, 21 Sep 2021 15:15:31 +0100, John Williamson <johnwilliamson@btinternet.com> wrote:
On 21/09/2021 13:48, Scott wrote:
On Tue, 21 Sep 2021 13:20:25 +0100, "J. P. Gilliver (John)"Cheap enough, but all we can tell is that the receiver is smaller than
<G6JPG@255soft.uk> wrote:
On Tue, 21 Sep 2021 at 12:22:32, Scott <newsgroups@gefion.myzen.co.uk> >>>> wrote (my responses usually follow points raised):
On Tue, 21 Sep 2021 11:51:58 +0100, John Williamson[]
<johnwilliamson@btinternet.com> wrote:
Just to add that it would probably be cheaper now to just install a GPS >>>>>> unit in each room, as long as you could get a signal than install a >>>>>> master/slave system.
Why would GPS be better than MSF, where the thread started?
Not better, but might be cheaper and/or work better; GPS receivers are >>>> now cheap, common, and compact; I don't think MSF ones are any of those, >>>> and may also (isn't it VLF?) be more orientation- and
position-sensitive.
MSF is certainly compact as it's part of the clock:
https://www.argos.co.uk/product/8438997?clickSR=slp:term:radio%20controlled%20wall%20clock:2:135:1
I'll leave you to decide whether £15 is cheap.
the clock face. The independent module I found is about 200x100x15mm mm,
including the aerial but which needs an external power supply, and which
needs to be that size due to the wavelength of the signal.
I would have thought fitting the clock was the sole consideration.
My independent Satnav receiver is about 50mm square, and is about 10 mm
thick including a battery that will last up to 12 hours. The circuit
board is about 4mm thick including all components, a bluetooth interface
and a printed on antenna.
My clock battery lasts about 12 months, never mind 12 hours. I am unconvinced about the merits of GPS horology.
Thanks. The diagnosis was correct but the repair was less successful.
After removing 10 screws I was able to remove the glass and get to the
hands. However, the circle with the numbers on it had become
detached. I tried to glue it but the glue escaped and got on the
circle. I tried to remove the glue with a solvent and this damaged
the number 12.
On 23/09/2021 17:30, Max Demian wrote:
I don't think there is any intention that the Anthorn transmitter
provide a continuous time signal; radio controlled clocks are expected
to have a (presumably quartz) circuit that is synchronised by radio
periodically.
It is normally continuous (ignoring that it can take up to nearly 2
minutes to receive two complete time messages and check for consistency, which is IMHO the minimum error checking any modern MSF clock should do).
They do often switch it off a few days a year to repaint the aerial
masts etc. Even then if possible they put it back on at night.
I don't think there is any intention that the Anthorn transmitter
provide a continuous time signal; radio controlled clocks are expected
to have a (presumably quartz) circuit that is synchronised by radio periodically.
On 21/09/2021 15:25, Scott wrote:
On Tue, 21 Sep 2021 15:15:31 +0100, John Williamson
<johnwilliamson@btinternet.com> wrote:
On 21/09/2021 13:48, Scott wrote:
On Tue, 21 Sep 2021 13:20:25 +0100, "J. P. Gilliver (John)"Cheap enough, but all we can tell is that the receiver is smaller than
<G6JPG@255soft.uk> wrote:
On Tue, 21 Sep 2021 at 12:22:32, Scott <newsgroups@gefion.myzen.co.uk> >>>>> wrote (my responses usually follow points raised):
On Tue, 21 Sep 2021 11:51:58 +0100, John Williamson[]
<johnwilliamson@btinternet.com> wrote:
Just to add that it would probably be cheaper now to just install a GPS >>>>>>> unit in each room, as long as you could get a signal than install a >>>>>>> master/slave system.
Why would GPS be better than MSF, where the thread started?
Not better, but might be cheaper and/or work better; GPS receivers are >>>>> now cheap, common, and compact; I don't think MSF ones are any of those, >>>>> and may also (isn't it VLF?) be more orientation- and
position-sensitive.
MSF is certainly compact as it's part of the clock:
https://www.argos.co.uk/product/8438997?clickSR=slp:term:radio%20controlled%20wall%20clock:2:135:1
I'll leave you to decide whether £15 is cheap.
the clock face. The independent module I found is about 200x100x15mm mm, >>> including the aerial but which needs an external power supply, and which >>> needs to be that size due to the wavelength of the signal.
I would have thought fitting the clock was the sole consideration.
My independent Satnav receiver is about 50mm square, and is about 10 mm
thick including a battery that will last up to 12 hours. The circuit
board is about 4mm thick including all components, a bluetooth interface >>> and a printed on antenna.
My clock battery lasts about 12 months, never mind 12 hours. I am
unconvinced about the merits of GPS horology.
The way I see it the main advantage of GPS would be much better immunity
to impulse noise and interference from nearby switch mode power
supplies, light dimmers, unscreened plastic cased digital devices and so
on. Also almost zero chance of syncing to the incorrect time because of modern more robust error checking in GPS compared to simple parity bits
in MSF.
Main disadvantage would be that there are plenty of locations in large buildings where no GPS signal reaches but where MSF might be usable.
Also there is lot of complex mathematics going on in the receiver which,
at least in theory, could mean more chance of bugs in cheap devices.
On 21/09/2021 13:20, J. P. Gilliver (John) wrote:
Not better, but might be cheaper and/or work better; GPS receivers are
now cheap, common, and compact; I don't think MSF ones are any of those,
and may also (isn't it VLF?) be more orientation- and
position-sensitive.
The big disadvantage of MSF was it being off one day a week and longer
once a year.
On 23/09/2021 17:30, Max Demian wrote:
I don't think there is any intention that the Anthorn transmitter
provide a continuous time signal; radio controlled clocks are expected
to have a (presumably quartz) circuit that is synchronised by radio
periodically.
It is normally continuous (ignoring that it can take up to nearly 2
minutes to receive two complete time messages and check for consistency, which is IMHO the minimum error checking any modern MSF clock should do).
On Fri, 24 Sep 2021 17:30:37 -0000 (UTC), Tweed
<usenet.tweed@gmail.com> wrote:
Brian Gregory <void-invalid-dead-dontuse@email.invalid> wrote:
On 21/09/2021 15:25, Scott wrote:Where WiFi (or even wired Ethernet) is available NTP is the best means of
On Tue, 21 Sep 2021 15:15:31 +0100, John WilliamsonThe way I see it the main advantage of GPS would be much better immunity >>> to impulse noise and interference from nearby switch mode power
<johnwilliamson@btinternet.com> wrote:
On 21/09/2021 13:48, Scott wrote:
On Tue, 21 Sep 2021 13:20:25 +0100, "J. P. Gilliver (John)"Cheap enough, but all we can tell is that the receiver is smaller than >>>>> the clock face. The independent module I found is about 200x100x15mm mm, >>>>> including the aerial but which needs an external power supply, and which >>>>> needs to be that size due to the wavelength of the signal.
<G6JPG@255soft.uk> wrote:
On Tue, 21 Sep 2021 at 12:22:32, Scott <newsgroups@gefion.myzen.co.uk> >>>>>>> wrote (my responses usually follow points raised):
On Tue, 21 Sep 2021 11:51:58 +0100, John Williamson[]
<johnwilliamson@btinternet.com> wrote:
Just to add that it would probably be cheaper now to just install a GPS
unit in each room, as long as you could get a signal than install a >>>>>>>>> master/slave system.
Why would GPS be better than MSF, where the thread started?
Not better, but might be cheaper and/or work better; GPS receivers are >>>>>>> now cheap, common, and compact; I don't think MSF ones are any of those,
and may also (isn't it VLF?) be more orientation- and
position-sensitive.
MSF is certainly compact as it's part of the clock:
https://www.argos.co.uk/product/8438997?clickSR=slp:term:radio%20controlled%20wall%20clock:2:135:1
I'll leave you to decide whether £15 is cheap.
I would have thought fitting the clock was the sole consideration.
My independent Satnav receiver is about 50mm square, and is about 10 mm >>>>> thick including a battery that will last up to 12 hours. The circuit >>>>> board is about 4mm thick including all components, a bluetooth interface >>>>> and a printed on antenna.
My clock battery lasts about 12 months, never mind 12 hours. I am
unconvinced about the merits of GPS horology.
supplies, light dimmers, unscreened plastic cased digital devices and so >>> on. Also almost zero chance of syncing to the incorrect time because of
modern more robust error checking in GPS compared to simple parity bits
in MSF.
Main disadvantage would be that there are plenty of locations in large
buildings where no GPS signal reaches but where MSF might be usable.
Also there is lot of complex mathematics going on in the receiver which, >>> at least in theory, could mean more chance of bugs in cheap devices.
getting accurate time. Multiple time servers can be specified just in case >> one is unreachable. You do need GPS for sub microsecond accuracy though.
That's an interesting suggestion. Do such products exist at present
and could they be sold for £15? What about battery consumption? The
radio controlled clock AIUI only checks the time periodically, which
allows the battery to last for more than a year. Could a Wi-Fi clock
operate in this way also?
Brian Gregory <void-invalid-dead-dontuse@email.invalid> wrote:
On 21/09/2021 15:25, Scott wrote:Where WiFi (or even wired Ethernet) is available NTP is the best means of >getting accurate time. Multiple time servers can be specified just in case >one is unreachable. You do need GPS for sub microsecond accuracy though.
On Tue, 21 Sep 2021 15:15:31 +0100, John WilliamsonThe way I see it the main advantage of GPS would be much better immunity
<johnwilliamson@btinternet.com> wrote:
On 21/09/2021 13:48, Scott wrote:
On Tue, 21 Sep 2021 13:20:25 +0100, "J. P. Gilliver (John)"Cheap enough, but all we can tell is that the receiver is smaller than >>>> the clock face. The independent module I found is about 200x100x15mm mm, >>>> including the aerial but which needs an external power supply, and which >>>> needs to be that size due to the wavelength of the signal.
<G6JPG@255soft.uk> wrote:
On Tue, 21 Sep 2021 at 12:22:32, Scott <newsgroups@gefion.myzen.co.uk> >>>>>> wrote (my responses usually follow points raised):
On Tue, 21 Sep 2021 11:51:58 +0100, John Williamson[]
<johnwilliamson@btinternet.com> wrote:
Just to add that it would probably be cheaper now to just install a GPS
unit in each room, as long as you could get a signal than install a >>>>>>>> master/slave system.
Why would GPS be better than MSF, where the thread started?
Not better, but might be cheaper and/or work better; GPS receivers are >>>>>> now cheap, common, and compact; I don't think MSF ones are any of those, >>>>>> and may also (isn't it VLF?) be more orientation- and
position-sensitive.
MSF is certainly compact as it's part of the clock:
https://www.argos.co.uk/product/8438997?clickSR=slp:term:radio%20controlled%20wall%20clock:2:135:1
I'll leave you to decide whether £15 is cheap.
I would have thought fitting the clock was the sole consideration.
My independent Satnav receiver is about 50mm square, and is about 10 mm >>>> thick including a battery that will last up to 12 hours. The circuit
board is about 4mm thick including all components, a bluetooth interface >>>> and a printed on antenna.
My clock battery lasts about 12 months, never mind 12 hours. I am
unconvinced about the merits of GPS horology.
to impulse noise and interference from nearby switch mode power
supplies, light dimmers, unscreened plastic cased digital devices and so
on. Also almost zero chance of syncing to the incorrect time because of
modern more robust error checking in GPS compared to simple parity bits
in MSF.
Main disadvantage would be that there are plenty of locations in large
buildings where no GPS signal reaches but where MSF might be usable.
Also there is lot of complex mathematics going on in the receiver which,
at least in theory, could mean more chance of bugs in cheap devices.
On 20/09/2021 12:57, Scott wrote:
Thanks. The diagnosis was correct but the repair was less successful.
After removing 10 screws I was able to remove the glass and get to the
hands. However, the circle with the numbers on it had become
detached. I tried to glue it but the glue escaped and got on the
circle. I tried to remove the glue with a solvent and this damaged
the number 12.
Sometimes the clock module behind the face is only held by the central
fixing and can rotate slightly away from the correct position which has
the effect of making it seem like the clock is a minute or two fast or
slow. It's easy to fix, typically no dismantling required, just gently
try to rotate the clock module a few degrees.
On Thu, 23 Sep 2021 at 09:24:56, Roderick Stewart ><rjfs@escapetime.myzen.co.uk> wrote (my responses usually follow points >raised):
On Wed, 22 Sep 2021 17:49:15 +0100, MB <MB@nospam.net> wrote:
How many use MSF? It is a lot of expense for very few users who can all >>>use other services.
There are possibly millions of radio controlled clocks in households
all over the country that would be rendered useless if the service
were discontinued.
Most have a quartz clock backup; I suspect the majority only have the >accurate time as a novelty that's nice to have.
Do such products exist at presentDo you want a display? Or just hands?
and could they be sold for £15? What about battery consumption?
I was wondering about a traditional clockface (with hands) run via
W-Fi rather than MSF.
Scott wrote:
Do such products exist at presentDo you want a display? Or just hands?
and could they be sold for £15? What about battery consumption?
There was an improvement when the transmitter moved from Rugby to Cumbria.
On Thu, 23 Sep 2021 22:25:44 +0100, "J. P. Gilliver (John)" ><G6JPG@255soft.uk> wrote:
There are possibly millions of radio controlled clocks in households
all over the country that would be rendered useless if the service
were discontinued.
Most have a quartz clock backup; I suspect the majority only have the >>accurate time as a novelty that's nice to have.
Yes, mine has a quartz backup, and will continue for a while if it
loses the signal but will eventually try to resynchronise, which it
does by quickly moving the hands to 12 o'clock and waiting for the
signal to return. There is no other way of setting the time. The only
control is a reset button. It would be useless if MSF disappeared.
That's an interesting suggestion. Do such products exist at present
and could they be sold for £15? What about battery consumption? The
radio controlled clock AIUI only checks the time periodically, which
allows the battery to last for more than a year. Could a Wi-Fi clock
operate in this way also?
There’s no fundamental reason why something that uses a 2.4/5 GHz receiver >and connects to a tcp/ip network should be more energy hungry than
something that has a 60/77.5 kHz receiver and decodes a digital data
stream. Chips that go to sleep and wake up periodically to save power are a >known thing. Whether anyone thinks it worth their time developing something >for such a low potential selling cost is another matter.
On Fri, 24 Sep 2021 10:29:42 +0100, Roderick Stewart ><rjfs@escapetime.myzen.co.uk> wrote:
On Thu, 23 Sep 2021 22:25:44 +0100, "J. P. Gilliver (John)" >><G6JPG@255soft.uk> wrote:Mine allows you to disable MSF and set the time manually if required.
There are possibly millions of radio controlled clocks in households >>>>all over the country that would be rendered useless if the service
were discontinued.
Most have a quartz clock backup; I suspect the majority only have the >>>accurate time as a novelty that's nice to have.
Yes, mine has a quartz backup, and will continue for a while if it
loses the signal but will eventually try to resynchronise, which it
does by quickly moving the hands to 12 o'clock and waiting for the
signal to return. There is no other way of setting the time. The only >>control is a reset button. It would be useless if MSF disappeared.
On Fri, 24 Sep 2021 10:29:42 +0100, Roderick Stewart <rjfs@escapetime.myzen.co.uk> wrote:
On Thu, 23 Sep 2021 22:25:44 +0100, "J. P. Gilliver (John)"Mine allows you to disable MSF and set the time manually if required.
<G6JPG@255soft.uk> wrote:
Yes, mine has a quartz backup, and will continue for a while if itThere are possibly millions of radio controlled clocks in householdsMost have a quartz clock backup; I suspect the majority only have the
all over the country that would be rendered useless if the service
were discontinued.
accurate time as a novelty that's nice to have.
loses the signal but will eventually try to resynchronise, which it
does by quickly moving the hands to 12 o'clock and waiting for the
signal to return. There is no other way of setting the time. The only
control is a reset button. It would be useless if MSF disappeared.
I suppose it might be thought of as a novelty but it just seems that if
you are going to have a clock then it might as well as display the
correct time. And it saves having to get up at 02:00 twice year to
adjust the clocks. :-)
On 27/09/2021 10:02, Scott wrote:
On Fri, 24 Sep 2021 10:29:42 +0100, Roderick Stewart
<rjfs@escapetime.myzen.co.uk> wrote:
On Thu, 23 Sep 2021 22:25:44 +0100, "J. P. Gilliver (John)"Mine allows you to disable MSF and set the time manually if required.
<G6JPG@255soft.uk> wrote:
Yes, mine has a quartz backup, and will continue for a while if itThere are possibly millions of radio controlled clocks in households >>>>> all over the country that would be rendered useless if the serviceMost have a quartz clock backup; I suspect the majority only have the
were discontinued.
accurate time as a novelty that's nice to have.
loses the signal but will eventually try to resynchronise, which it
does by quickly moving the hands to 12 o'clock and waiting for the
signal to return. There is no other way of setting the time. The only
control is a reset button. It would be useless if MSF disappeared.
It is unusual to be able to set the time manually on radio-controlled
clock. I have one that allows you to switch between WWV, DCF77, MSF and
the Japanese equivalent.
I suppose it might be thought of as a novelty but it just seems that if
you are going to have a clock then it might as well as display the
correct time. And it saves having to get up at 02:00 twice year to
adjust the clocks. :-)
On Sun, 26 Sep 2021 16:51:39 +0100, Scott <newsgroups@gefion.myzen.co.uk> >wrote:
There was an improvement when the transmitter moved from Rugby to Cumbria.
That rather depends where you are. It got worse here as it's now much
further away.
On Sun, 26 Sep 2021 16:51:39 +0100, Scott <newsgroups@gefion.myzen.co.uk> wrote:
There was an improvement when the transmitter moved from Rugby to Cumbria.
That rather depends where you are. It got worse here as it's now much
further away.
On Fri, 24 Sep 2021 17:40:48 +0100, Brian Gregory <void-invalid-dead-dontuse@email.invalid> wrote:
On 23/09/2021 17:30, Max Demian wrote:
I don't think there is any intention that the Anthorn transmitter
provide a continuous time signal; radio controlled clocks are expected
to have a (presumably quartz) circuit that is synchronised by radio
periodically.
It is normally continuous (ignoring that it can take up to nearly 2
minutes to receive two complete time messages and check for consistency,
which is IMHO the minimum error checking any modern MSF clock should do).
It can take nearly 3 minutes to receive 2 complete messages, if you just
miss the start of the first one.
On 18/09/2021 10:45, Scott wrote:
The batteries in my "Kundo Spacetimer" (Anthorn) liquid crystal RC
clock (in use since 1993) have given out and I can't get it to set
itself (with fresh batteries). I've tried different times,
orientations, locations inside and out, but it always gives up. I
*can*, however set it manually.
Is it just "too old"? I don't see why such a relatively simple solid
state device should just fail suddenly, but what do I know?
On Sat, 2 Oct 2021 at 11:21:49, Max Demian <max_demian@bigfoot.com>
wrote (my responses usually follow points raised):
On 18/09/2021 10:45, Scott wrote:Does the LCD have an icon showing whether it (thinks it) is receiving a signal from the time source? My AURIOL one (Lidl, some years ago - ran
The batteries in my "Kundo Spacetimer" (Anthorn) liquid crystal RC
clock (in use since 1993) have given out and I can't get it to set
itself (with fresh batteries). I've tried different times,
orientations, locations inside and out, but it always gives up. I
*can*, however set it manually.
Is it just "too old"? I don't see why such a relatively simple solid
state device should just fail suddenly, but what do I know?
for many years on the cell supplied with it, even though it shows
temperature too) does (the usual sort of mast with a ring round it). If
so, does it show whether it is or not?
(How many cells in the battery? I was surprised to discover that, though
the compartment in mine has space for two, it ran fine on one; I think
the other is for the backlight which I never use anyway.)
I agree, I wouldn't expect it to fail suddenly - especially partially.
My only thought is that either the receiver part failed, or the source
it relies on ceased transmitting (or moved such that the signal at your location is now too low; do you know which one it uses?), some while
ago, and it just carried on on its quartz backup.
I understood if the radio signal is lost, the clock has the ability to
keep time internally (the radio control can be switched off). I am
therefore mystified how this clock could gain 10 minutes. Any ideas?
My radio controlled clock (Lexon Flip+) gained 10 minutes. My first
thought was that the battery might be flat and the clock stopped then >restarted. However, it is a very new battery. My second thought was
that the time signal (from Frankfurt) might have been affected by
atmospheric conditions. However, this has never happened before and I
cannot see how this could cause the clock to gain time. My third
thought was a fault at the transmitter. However, I restarted the clock >(removing the battery) and it picked up the time very quickly. I
cannot see how a main transmitter for Europe could be faulty.
I understood if the radio signal is lost, the clock has the ability to
keep time internally (the radio control can be switched off). I am
therefore mystified how this clock could gain 10 minutes. Any ideas?
On 29/08/2023 17:54, Scott wrote:
I understood if the radio signal is lost, the clock has the ability to
keep time internally (the radio control can be switched off). I am
therefore mystified how this clock could gain 10 minutes. Any ideas?
People often think that the clocks are synchronised to a Standard
Frequency Station all the time but most only update periodically. It
might be several times a day or only once a day.
Many indicate how long since the last update.
My radio controlled clock (Lexon Flip+) gained 10 minutes. My first
thought was that the battery might be flat and the clock stopped then restarted. However, it is a very new battery. My second thought was
that the time signal (from Frankfurt) might have been affected by
atmospheric conditions. However, this has never happened before and I
cannot see how this could cause the clock to gain time. My third
thought was a fault at the transmitter. However, I restarted the clock (removing the battery) and it picked up the time very quickly. I
cannot see how a main transmitter for Europe could be faulty.
I understood if the radio signal is lost, the clock has the ability to
keep time internally (the radio control can be switched off). I am
therefore mystified how this clock could gain 10 minutes. Any ideas?
Most clocks synchronise at 04h00 to make sure they don't crash with DST start/stop.
On 29/08/2023 17:54, Scott wrote:
My radio controlled clock (Lexon Flip+) gained 10 minutes. My first
thought was that the battery might be flat and the clock stopped then
restarted. However, it is a very new battery. My second thought was
that the time signal (from Frankfurt) might have been affected by
atmospheric conditions. However, this has never happened before and I
cannot see how this could cause the clock to gain time. My third
thought was a fault at the transmitter. However, I restarted the clock
(removing the battery) and it picked up the time very quickly. I
cannot see how a main transmitter for Europe could be faulty.
I understood if the radio signal is lost, the clock has the ability to
keep time internally (the radio control can be switched off). I am
therefore mystified how this clock could gain 10 minutes. Any ideas?
A 1 bit error in decoding the binary coded decimal time could throw the
time off by 1, 2, 4, 8, 10, 20 or 40 minutes or 1, 2, 4, 8, 10 or 20 hours.
The error checking is probably only a very crude parity or checksum
and/or it reads the signal twice and checks for consistency so it's
unlikely but definitely possible for this to happen.
Once that has happened the clock stays wrong until next time it turns on
its receiver typically in the small hours around 24 hours later.
On 29/08/2023 17:54, Scott wrote:
I understood if the radio signal is lost, the clock has the ability
to keep time internally (the radio control can be switched off). I am >>therefore mystified how this clock could gain 10 minutes. Any ideas?
People often think that the clocks are synchronised to a Standard
Frequency Station all the time but most only update periodically. It
might be several times a day or only once a day.
Many indicate how long since the last update.
Many - LCD ones, anyway, not sure about mechanical ones - have a symbol
to show whether they're receiving the radio signal. I get the impression
that they don't go _that_ long without a correction (again, mechanical
ones may be less often for battery reasons).
On Tue, 29 Aug 2023 19:02:26 +0100, Brian Gregory <void-invalid-dead-dontuse@email.invalid> wrote:
On 29/08/2023 17:54, Scott wrote:
My radio controlled clock (Lexon Flip+) gained 10 minutes. My first
thought was that the battery might be flat and the clock stopped then
restarted. However, it is a very new battery. My second thought was
that the time signal (from Frankfurt) might have been affected by
atmospheric conditions. However, this has never happened before and I
cannot see how this could cause the clock to gain time. My third
thought was a fault at the transmitter. However, I restarted the clock
(removing the battery) and it picked up the time very quickly. I
cannot see how a main transmitter for Europe could be faulty.
I understood if the radio signal is lost, the clock has the ability to
keep time internally (the radio control can be switched off). I am
therefore mystified how this clock could gain 10 minutes. Any ideas?
A 1 bit error in decoding the binary coded decimal time could throw the
time off by 1, 2, 4, 8, 10, 20 or 40 minutes or 1, 2, 4, 8, 10 or 20 hours. >>
The error checking is probably only a very crude parity or checksum
and/or it reads the signal twice and checks for consistency so it's
unlikely but definitely possible for this to happen.
Once that has happened the clock stays wrong until next time it turns on
its receiver typically in the small hours around 24 hours later.
Thanks for this. It seems more likely than the clock gaining 10
minutes between signal checks.
On 29/08/2023 20:55, Scott wrote:
On Tue, 29 Aug 2023 19:02:26 +0100, Brian GregoryI have 3 radio wall clocks plus one in a weather station and am
<void-invalid-dead-dontuse@email.invalid> wrote:
On 29/08/2023 17:54, Scott wrote:
My radio controlled clock (Lexon Flip+) gained 10 minutes. My first
thought was that the battery might be flat and the clock stopped then
restarted. However, it is a very new battery. My second thought was
that the time signal (from Frankfurt) might have been affected by
atmospheric conditions. However, this has never happened before and I
cannot see how this could cause the clock to gain time. My third
thought was a fault at the transmitter. However, I restarted the clock >>>> (removing the battery) and it picked up the time very quickly. I
cannot see how a main transmitter for Europe could be faulty.
I understood if the radio signal is lost, the clock has the ability to >>>> keep time internally (the radio control can be switched off). I am
therefore mystified how this clock could gain 10 minutes. Any ideas?
A 1 bit error in decoding the binary coded decimal time could throw the
time off by 1, 2, 4, 8, 10, 20 or 40 minutes or 1, 2, 4, 8, 10 or 20 hours. >>>
The error checking is probably only a very crude parity or checksum
and/or it reads the signal twice and checks for consistency so it's
unlikely but definitely possible for this to happen.
Once that has happened the clock stays wrong until next time it turns on >>> its receiver typically in the small hours around 24 hours later.
Thanks for this. It seems more likely than the clock gaining 10
minutes between signal checks.
convinced this is an interference problem with cheap clocks.
The oldest wall and the weather station were made in Germany, probably
use their PTB time signal, and have never had a problem. The other 2
wall are cheap ones from Argos and both have irregular gliches, either
going crazy or showing wrong time. They might use the same signal but
more likely the closer NPL one. Not a battery issue - I wasted money on >batteries until I realised that a quick reset would usually suffice.
At this moment all 4 have been perfect for weeks, showing identical
times to the second.
On Thu, 31 Aug 2023 12:37:03 +0100, MikeS <MikeS@fred.com> wrote:
On 29/08/2023 20:55, Scott wrote:
On Tue, 29 Aug 2023 19:02:26 +0100, Brian GregoryI have 3 radio wall clocks plus one in a weather station and am
<void-invalid-dead-dontuse@email.invalid> wrote:
On 29/08/2023 17:54, Scott wrote:
My radio controlled clock (Lexon Flip+) gained 10 minutes. My first
thought was that the battery might be flat and the clock stopped then >>>>> restarted. However, it is a very new battery. My second thought was
that the time signal (from Frankfurt) might have been affected by
atmospheric conditions. However, this has never happened before and I >>>>> cannot see how this could cause the clock to gain time. My third
thought was a fault at the transmitter. However, I restarted the clock >>>>> (removing the battery) and it picked up the time very quickly. I
cannot see how a main transmitter for Europe could be faulty.
I understood if the radio signal is lost, the clock has the ability to >>>>> keep time internally (the radio control can be switched off). I am
therefore mystified how this clock could gain 10 minutes. Any ideas?
A 1 bit error in decoding the binary coded decimal time could throw the >>>> time off by 1, 2, 4, 8, 10, 20 or 40 minutes or 1, 2, 4, 8, 10 or 20 hours.
The error checking is probably only a very crude parity or checksum
and/or it reads the signal twice and checks for consistency so it's
unlikely but definitely possible for this to happen.
Once that has happened the clock stays wrong until next time it turns on >>>> its receiver typically in the small hours around 24 hours later.
Thanks for this. It seems more likely than the clock gaining 10
minutes between signal checks.
convinced this is an interference problem with cheap clocks.
The oldest wall and the weather station were made in Germany, probably
use their PTB time signal, and have never had a problem. The other 2
wall are cheap ones from Argos and both have irregular gliches, either
going crazy or showing wrong time. They might use the same signal but
more likely the closer NPL one. Not a battery issue - I wasted money on
batteries until I realised that a quick reset would usually suffice.
At this moment all 4 have been perfect for weeks, showing identical
times to the second.
Do you think atmospherics have a part to play?
Do you think atmospherics have a part to play?
The biggest problem is range.
DCF near Frankfurt on 77.5khz is supposed to have a range of 1500km
during the day but IME it is not as good as that - maybe 1000km most
days - but it does work fairly reliably here in Harrogate.
When MSF on 60khz was at Rugby it would work solidly 24/7, but since it
was moved to Anthorn, about 7m NNW of Wigton in NW Cumbria, it is
rubbish. If I check any of my clocks (daftly against my PC which uses
NPL) and the clock is in error I have no option but to restart it and
place it on a bedroom windowsill at the back of the house (which faces
NNE), put it anywhere else in the house and it might (downhill with a >following wind) get the time anything up to 48hrs or more later.
I used to have a cheap off-air watch and that was solid as a rock.
DCF near Frankfurt on 77.5khz is supposed to have a range of 1500km
during the day but IME it is not as good as that - maybe 1000km most
days - but it does work fairly reliably here in Harrogate.
When MSF on 60khz was at Rugby it would work solidly 24/7, but since it
was moved to Anthorn, about 7m NNW of Wigton in NW Cumbria, it is
rubbish.
On Thu, 31 Aug 2023 14:45:13 +0100, Woody <harrogate3@ntlworld.com>
wrote:
When MSF on 60khz was at Rugby it would work solidly 24/7, but since it
was moved to Anthorn, about 7m NNW of Wigton in NW Cumbria, it is
rubbish.
It's always been fine in Liverpool.
On 31/08/2023 14:45, Woody wrote:
DCF near Frankfurt on 77.5khz is supposed to have a range of 1500km
during the day but IME it is not as good as that - maybe 1000km most
days - but it does work fairly reliably here in Harrogate.
Never had any serious problems with DCF77, it has the big advantage that
it never goes off. They have standby site which is used during
maintenance periods (you can even correct for the different location if
using professional equipment).
MSF is taken off for maintenance regularly (can't remember how and when
but they publish times). My first MSF clock had the usual big bar
across the top of the clock to cancel the alarm. This also switched the light on so had to be careful that not switched on in the suitcase in
case battery ran down. So I sometimes took the battery out in transit because the time would set itself quickly, unless MSF was off and the
clock had no method of manually setting the time!
My other PC is used by Planeplotter and has to have accurate time so I
have Meinburg NTP running.
On 31/08/2023 16:17, Woody wrote:
I feed FlightRadar24 but NPL as the reference seems to work quite well
for Windows 10 Pro. Given FR24 know <exactly> where I am located and
which are my local active airfields I doubt they would have any
problems adjusting my time data!
I don't think FR24 accepts feeds from PCs so I don't feed it but I never
use the site, much prefer ADS-B.
I feed FlightRadar24 but NPL as the reference seems to work quite well
for Windows 10 Pro. Given FR24 know <exactly> where I am located and
which are my local active airfields I doubt they would have any problems adjusting my time data!
If they don't accept them I wonder what I have been doing for the last
2+ years?
I have a receiver in the loft receiving ADS-B, pushes it into a RPi 3B
which sends it to FR24. What is it that you do that is different?
I don't think FR24 accepts feeds from PCs so I don't feed it but I never
use the site, much prefer ADS-B.
If they don't accept them I wonder what I have been doing for the last
2+ years?
I have a receiver in the loft receiving ADS-B, pushes it into a RPi 3B
which sends it to FR24.
You *can* use a PC, as long as it is running Linux. I know, stupid
people think PCs only run Windows, but they really don't.
Do you think atmospherics have a part to play?
My radio controlled clock (Lexon Flip+) gained 10 minutes. My first
thought was that the battery might be flat and the clock stopped then restarted. However, it is a very new battery. My second thought was
that the time signal (from Frankfurt) might have been affected by
atmospheric conditions. However, this has never happened before and I
cannot see how this could cause the clock to gain time. My third
thought was a fault at the transmitter. However, I restarted the clock (removing the battery) and it picked up the time very quickly. I
cannot see how a main transmitter for Europe could be faulty.
I understood if the radio signal is lost, the clock has the ability to
keep time internally (the radio control can be switched off). I am
therefore mystified how this clock could gain 10 minutes. Any ideas?
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