• SOT: Radio controlled clock

    From MB@21:1/5 to Scott on Sat Sep 18 11:05:02 2021
    On 18/09/2021 10:45, Scott wrote:
    My radio controlled clock is running more than 1 minute fast. I
    thought these clocks were supposed to be accurate within two seconds
    in 10,000 years. It is certainly not 300,000 years old!

    I have tried resetting but this makes no difference. My only thought
    is that it is an analogue clock and there could be something wrong
    with the gears. Can I adjust it?

    With most of those analogue clocks, you can move the hands so could
    easily be displaying the wrong time.

    Don't forget most radio controlled clocks only synchronise to MSF or
    DCF77 once a day.

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
    * Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)
  • From Scott@21:1/5 to All on Sat Sep 18 10:45:32 2021
    My radio controlled clock is running more than 1 minute fast. I
    thought these clocks were supposed to be accurate within two seconds
    in 10,000 years. It is certainly not 300,000 years old!

    I have tried resetting but this makes no difference. My only thought
    is that it is an analogue clock and there could be something wrong
    with the gears. Can I adjust it?

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
    * Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)
  • From Scott@21:1/5 to MB@nospam.net on Sat Sep 18 11:50:51 2021
    On Sat, 18 Sep 2021 11:05:02 +0100, MB <MB@nospam.net> wrote:

    On 18/09/2021 10:45, Scott wrote:
    My radio controlled clock is running more than 1 minute fast. I
    thought these clocks were supposed to be accurate within two seconds
    in 10,000 years. It is certainly not 300,000 years old!

    I have tried resetting but this makes no difference. My only thought
    is that it is an analogue clock and there could be something wrong
    with the gears. Can I adjust it?

    With most of those analogue clocks, you can move the hands so could
    easily be displaying the wrong time.

    You mean I may be able to do this? Some dismantling would be needed

    Don't forget most radio controlled clocks only synchronise to MSF or
    DCF77 once a day.

    I took the battery out and put it back in again so it was
    synchronised.

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
    * Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)
  • From MB@21:1/5 to Scott on Sat Sep 18 12:40:39 2021
    On 18/09/2021 11:50, Scott wrote:
    You mean I may be able to do this? Some dismantling would be needed
    Don't forget most radio controlled clocks only synchronise to MSF or
    DCF77 once a day.
    I took the battery out and put it back in again so it was
    synchronised.

    Up to you but on some the hands are not fixed to the drive shaft and can
    be moved. The synchronising system does not know where the hand is
    pointing.

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
    * Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)
  • From Liz Tuddenham@21:1/5 to MB@nospam.net on Sat Sep 18 19:01:52 2021
    MB <MB@nospam.net> wrote:

    On 18/09/2021 11:50, Scott wrote:
    You mean I may be able to do this? Some dismantling would be needed
    Don't forget most radio controlled clocks only synchronise to MSF or
    DCF77 once a day.
    I took the battery out and put it back in again so it was
    synchronised.

    Up to you but on some the hands are not fixed to the drive shaft and can
    be moved. The synchronising system does not know where the hand is
    pointing.

    The method which seems to be quite common is to set the minute and
    second hands exactly to the start of the current hour with the battery
    removed (or a 'reset' button held down), then put the battery back in
    (or release the button) and wait.

    The display will start to operate in an unsynchronised way while the
    receiver searches for time signals, then the stepper motor will go into fast-forward until it reaches the exact time. From then on, it will be
    exactly on time.

    If someone has not aligned the hands correctly before letting it run,
    the starting error wil be added to (or subtracted from) the indicated
    time.


    --
    ~ Liz Tuddenham ~
    (Remove the ".invalid"s and add ".co.uk" to reply)
    www.poppyrecords.co.uk

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
    * Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)
  • From Liz Tuddenham@21:1/5 to Scott on Sat Sep 18 21:44:56 2021
    Scott <newsgroups@gefion.myzen.co.uk> wrote:

    My radio controlled clock is running more than 1 minute fast. I
    thought these clocks were supposed to be accurate within two seconds
    in 10,000 years. It is certainly not 300,000 years old!

    I have tried resetting but this makes no difference. My only thought
    is that it is an analogue clock and there could be something wrong
    with the gears. Can I adjust it?

    It can get out of step if it ia placed at an orientation where the
    internal aerial cannot pick up a signal. Often this will be signallled
    to the user in some way, such as double-stepping the second hand every
    two seconds instead of the usual once-per-second. The cure is to turn
    it through about 90 degrees and see if it starts behaving normally.

    Another thing that can upset them is a high level of radio frequency interference, so keep it away from power supplies, mains leads, wireless routers and laptop screens.


    --
    ~ Liz Tuddenham ~
    (Remove the ".invalid"s and add ".co.uk" to reply)
    www.poppyrecords.co.uk

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
    * Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)
  • From Scott@21:1/5 to MB@nospam.net on Mon Sep 20 12:57:41 2021
    On Sat, 18 Sep 2021 12:40:39 +0100, MB <MB@nospam.net> wrote:

    On 18/09/2021 11:50, Scott wrote:
    You mean I may be able to do this? Some dismantling would be needed
    Don't forget most radio controlled clocks only synchronise to MSF or
    DCF77 once a day.
    I took the battery out and put it back in again so it was
    synchronised.

    Up to you but on some the hands are not fixed to the drive shaft and can
    be moved. The synchronising system does not know where the hand is
    pointing.

    Thanks. The diagnosis was correct but the repair was less successful.
    After removing 10 screws I was able to remove the glass and get to the
    hands. However, the circle with the numbers on it had become
    detached. I tried to glue it but the glue escaped and got on the
    circle. I tried to remove the glue with a solvent and this damaged
    the number 12.

    Is this a good clock or just an expensive name: https://www.johnlewis.com/lascelles-radio-controlled-arabic-numeral-analogue-wall-clock-36cm/black/p4999121?sku=238703193&s_ppc=2dx92700065449632389&tmad=c&tmcampid=2&gclid=CjwKCAjw4qCKBhAVEiwAkTYsPJvNSj2F-
    FPQgvmODZqY2gKxDbkiLQQi1Cu25eyPOw3Y9XXsM6nvzBoCfs0QAvD_BwE&gclsrc=aw.ds

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
    * Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)
  • From tony sayer@21:1/5 to All on Mon Sep 20 14:52:50 2021
    In article <fitgkgl2ucs9bqsmf7lp3b9q1nu2aii4te@4ax.com>, Scott <newsgroups@gefion.myzen.co.uk> scribeth thus
    On Sat, 18 Sep 2021 12:40:39 +0100, MB <MB@nospam.net> wrote:

    On 18/09/2021 11:50, Scott wrote:
    You mean I may be able to do this? Some dismantling would be needed
    Don't forget most radio controlled clocks only synchronise to MSF or
    DCF77 once a day.
    I took the battery out and put it back in again so it was
    synchronised.

    Up to you but on some the hands are not fixed to the drive shaft and can
    be moved. The synchronising system does not know where the hand is >>pointing.

    Thanks. The diagnosis was correct but the repair was less successful.
    After removing 10 screws I was able to remove the glass and get to the
    hands. However, the circle with the numbers on it had become
    detached. I tried to glue it but the glue escaped and got on the
    circle. I tried to remove the glue with a solvent and this damaged
    the number 12.

    Is this a good clock or just an expensive name: >https://www.johnlewis.com/lascelles-radio-controlled-arabic-numeral-analogue- >wall-clock-36cm/black/p4999121?sku=238703193&s_ppc=2dx92700065449632389&tmad=c&t
    mcampid=2&gclid=CjwKCAjw4qCKBhAVEiwAkTYsPJvNSj2F-FPQgvmODZqY2gKxDbkiLQQi1Cu25eyP
    Ow3Y9XXsM6nvzBoCfs0QAvD_BwE&gclsrc=aw.ds


    Dunno about that but I'd like this one for Xmas for the workshop;)...


    https://shop.iwm.org.uk/Replica-Duxford-RAF-sector-clock

    --
    Tony Sayer


    Man is least himself when he talks in his own person.

    Give him a keyboard, and he will reveal himself.

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
    * Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)
  • From Max Demian@21:1/5 to Scott on Mon Sep 20 14:25:44 2021
    On 20/09/2021 12:57, Scott wrote:
    On Sat, 18 Sep 2021 12:40:39 +0100, MB <MB@nospam.net> wrote:

    On 18/09/2021 11:50, Scott wrote:
    You mean I may be able to do this? Some dismantling would be needed
    Don't forget most radio controlled clocks only synchronise to MSF or
    DCF77 once a day.
    I took the battery out and put it back in again so it was
    synchronised.

    Up to you but on some the hands are not fixed to the drive shaft and can
    be moved. The synchronising system does not know where the hand is
    pointing.

    Thanks. The diagnosis was correct but the repair was less successful.
    After removing 10 screws I was able to remove the glass and get to the
    hands. However, the circle with the numbers on it had become
    detached. I tried to glue it but the glue escaped and got on the
    circle. I tried to remove the glue with a solvent and this damaged
    the number 12.

    Is this a good clock or just an expensive name: https://www.johnlewis.com/lascelles-radio-controlled-arabic-numeral-analogue-wall-clock-36cm/black/p4999121?sku=238703193&s_ppc=2dx92700065449632389&tmad=c&tmcampid=2&gclid=CjwKCAjw4qCKBhAVEiwAkTYsPJvNSj2F-
    FPQgvmODZqY2gKxDbkiLQQi1Cu25eyPOw3Y9XXsM6nvzBoCfs0QAvD_BwE&gclsrc=aw.ds

    An expensive name, certainly. I've got a (not radio controlled)
    Lascelles mantle clock. I had to fiddle with it a lot to get it to work
    without the hands fouling each other. The movement looks like it cost
    about 20p.

    --
    Max Demian

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
    * Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)
  • From Scott@21:1/5 to max_demian@bigfoot.com on Mon Sep 20 14:31:04 2021
    On Mon, 20 Sep 2021 14:25:44 +0100, Max Demian
    <max_demian@bigfoot.com> wrote:

    On 20/09/2021 12:57, Scott wrote:
    On Sat, 18 Sep 2021 12:40:39 +0100, MB <MB@nospam.net> wrote:

    On 18/09/2021 11:50, Scott wrote:
    You mean I may be able to do this? Some dismantling would be needed
    Don't forget most radio controlled clocks only synchronise to MSF or >>>>> DCF77 once a day.
    I took the battery out and put it back in again so it was
    synchronised.

    Up to you but on some the hands are not fixed to the drive shaft and can >>> be moved. The synchronising system does not know where the hand is
    pointing.

    Thanks. The diagnosis was correct but the repair was less successful.
    After removing 10 screws I was able to remove the glass and get to the
    hands. However, the circle with the numbers on it had become
    detached. I tried to glue it but the glue escaped and got on the
    circle. I tried to remove the glue with a solvent and this damaged
    the number 12.

    Is this a good clock or just an expensive name:
    https://www.johnlewis.com/lascelles-radio-controlled-arabic-numeral-analogue-wall-clock-36cm/black/p4999121?sku=238703193&s_ppc=2dx92700065449632389&tmad=c&tmcampid=2&gclid=CjwKCAjw4qCKBhAVEiwAkTYsPJvNSj2F-
    FPQgvmODZqY2gKxDbkiLQQi1Cu25eyPOw3Y9XXsM6nvzBoCfs0QAvD_BwE&gclsrc=aw.ds

    An expensive name, certainly. I've got a (not radio controlled)
    Lascelles mantle clock. I had to fiddle with it a lot to get it to work >without the hands fouling each other. The movement looks like it cost
    about 20p.

    I wondered. My granny used to say that you get what you pay for, but
    in the modern world I think this is now fake news.

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
    * Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)
  • From John Williamson@21:1/5 to Scott on Mon Sep 20 14:36:04 2021
    On 20/09/2021 14:31, Scott wrote:

    I wondered. My granny used to say that you get what you pay for, but
    in the modern world I think this is now fake news.

    My dad used to say that you get no more than you pay for...

    --
    Tciao for Now!

    John.

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
    * Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)
  • From Scott@21:1/5 to max_demian@bigfoot.com on Mon Sep 20 16:03:12 2021
    On Mon, 20 Sep 2021 14:25:44 +0100, Max Demian
    <max_demian@bigfoot.com> wrote:

    On 20/09/2021 12:57, Scott wrote:
    On Sat, 18 Sep 2021 12:40:39 +0100, MB <MB@nospam.net> wrote:

    On 18/09/2021 11:50, Scott wrote:
    You mean I may be able to do this? Some dismantling would be needed
    Don't forget most radio controlled clocks only synchronise to MSF or >>>>> DCF77 once a day.
    I took the battery out and put it back in again so it was
    synchronised.

    Up to you but on some the hands are not fixed to the drive shaft and can >>> be moved. The synchronising system does not know where the hand is
    pointing.

    Thanks. The diagnosis was correct but the repair was less successful.
    After removing 10 screws I was able to remove the glass and get to the
    hands. However, the circle with the numbers on it had become
    detached. I tried to glue it but the glue escaped and got on the
    circle. I tried to remove the glue with a solvent and this damaged
    the number 12.

    Is this a good clock or just an expensive name:
    https://www.johnlewis.com/lascelles-radio-controlled-arabic-numeral-analogue-wall-clock-36cm/black/p4999121?sku=238703193&s_ppc=2dx92700065449632389&tmad=c&tmcampid=2&gclid=CjwKCAjw4qCKBhAVEiwAkTYsPJvNSj2F-
    FPQgvmODZqY2gKxDbkiLQQi1Cu25eyPOw3Y9XXsM6nvzBoCfs0QAvD_BwE&gclsrc=aw.ds

    An expensive name, certainly. I've got a (not radio controlled)
    Lascelles mantle clock. I had to fiddle with it a lot to get it to work >without the hands fouling each other. The movement looks like it cost
    about 20p.

    PS Bargain compared to this one: https://uk.mondaine.com/collections/official-swiss-railways/products/wall-clock-40cm-silver-kitchen-clock-a995-clock-16sbb

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
    * Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)
  • From Scott@21:1/5 to All on Mon Sep 20 15:50:14 2021
    On Mon, 20 Sep 2021 14:52:50 +0100, tony sayer <tony@bancom.co.uk>
    wrote:

    In article <fitgkgl2ucs9bqsmf7lp3b9q1nu2aii4te@4ax.com>, Scott ><newsgroups@gefion.myzen.co.uk> scribeth thus
    On Sat, 18 Sep 2021 12:40:39 +0100, MB <MB@nospam.net> wrote:

    On 18/09/2021 11:50, Scott wrote:
    You mean I may be able to do this? Some dismantling would be needed
    Don't forget most radio controlled clocks only synchronise to MSF or >>>>> DCF77 once a day.
    I took the battery out and put it back in again so it was
    synchronised.

    Up to you but on some the hands are not fixed to the drive shaft and can >>>be moved. The synchronising system does not know where the hand is >>>pointing.

    Thanks. The diagnosis was correct but the repair was less successful. >>After removing 10 screws I was able to remove the glass and get to the >>hands. However, the circle with the numbers on it had become
    detached. I tried to glue it but the glue escaped and got on the
    circle. I tried to remove the glue with a solvent and this damaged
    the number 12.

    Is this a good clock or just an expensive name: >>https://www.johnlewis.com/lascelles-radio-controlled-arabic-numeral-analogue- >>wall-clock-36cm/black/p4999121?sku=238703193&s_ppc=2dx92700065449632389&tmad=c&t
    mcampid=2&gclid=CjwKCAjw4qCKBhAVEiwAkTYsPJvNSj2F-FPQgvmODZqY2gKxDbkiLQQi1Cu25eyP
    Ow3Y9XXsM6nvzBoCfs0QAvD_BwE&gclsrc=aw.ds

    Dunno about that but I'd like this one for Xmas for the workshop;)... >https://shop.iwm.org.uk/Replica-Duxford-RAF-sector-clock

    Impressive but you better request stock notification now as there are
    only 96 shopping days to Christmas.

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
    * Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)
  • From Scott@21:1/5 to johnwilliamson@btinternet.com on Mon Sep 20 15:47:25 2021
    On Mon, 20 Sep 2021 14:36:04 +0100, John Williamson <johnwilliamson@btinternet.com> wrote:

    On 20/09/2021 14:31, Scott wrote:

    I wondered. My granny used to say that you get what you pay for, but
    in the modern world I think this is now fake news.

    My dad used to say that you get no more than you pay for...

    I think that states the position more accurately.

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
    * Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)
  • From Max Demian@21:1/5 to Scott on Mon Sep 20 17:24:43 2021
    On 20/09/2021 16:03, Scott wrote:
    On Mon, 20 Sep 2021 14:25:44 +0100, Max Demian
    <max_demian@bigfoot.com> wrote:

    On 20/09/2021 12:57, Scott wrote:
    On Sat, 18 Sep 2021 12:40:39 +0100, MB <MB@nospam.net> wrote:

    On 18/09/2021 11:50, Scott wrote:
    You mean I may be able to do this? Some dismantling would be needed >>>>>> Don't forget most radio controlled clocks only synchronise to MSF or >>>>>> DCF77 once a day.
    I took the battery out and put it back in again so it was
    synchronised.

    Up to you but on some the hands are not fixed to the drive shaft and can >>>> be moved. The synchronising system does not know where the hand is
    pointing.

    Thanks. The diagnosis was correct but the repair was less successful.
    After removing 10 screws I was able to remove the glass and get to the
    hands. However, the circle with the numbers on it had become
    detached. I tried to glue it but the glue escaped and got on the
    circle. I tried to remove the glue with a solvent and this damaged
    the number 12.

    Is this a good clock or just an expensive name:
    https://www.johnlewis.com/lascelles-radio-controlled-arabic-numeral-analogue-wall-clock-36cm/black/p4999121?sku=238703193&s_ppc=2dx92700065449632389&tmad=c&tmcampid=2&gclid=CjwKCAjw4qCKBhAVEiwAkTYsPJvNSj2F-
    FPQgvmODZqY2gKxDbkiLQQi1Cu25eyPOw3Y9XXsM6nvzBoCfs0QAvD_BwE&gclsrc=aw.ds

    An expensive name, certainly. I've got a (not radio controlled)
    Lascelles mantle clock. I had to fiddle with it a lot to get it to work
    without the hands fouling each other. The movement looks like it cost
    about 20p.

    PS Bargain compared to this one: https://uk.mondaine.com/collections/official-swiss-railways/products/wall-clock-40cm-silver-kitchen-clock-a995-clock-16sbb

    Could still have a 20p Chinese movement.

    --
    Max Demian

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
    * Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)
  • From MB@21:1/5 to Scott on Mon Sep 20 17:25:02 2021
    On 20/09/2021 12:57, Scott wrote:
    Is this a good clock or just an expensive name:

    I bought several analogue radio-controlled clocks from Argos. I some
    several digital display ones but the analogue display is much clearer
    and one of the digital clocks refusesd to come off Berlin Time!

    Only criticism of the analogue ones is one has a very loud "tick"

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
    * Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)
  • From Max Demian@21:1/5 to tony sayer on Mon Sep 20 17:26:11 2021
    On 20/09/2021 14:52, tony sayer wrote:
    In article <fitgkgl2ucs9bqsmf7lp3b9q1nu2aii4te@4ax.com>, Scott <newsgroups@gefion.myzen.co.uk> scribeth thus
    On Sat, 18 Sep 2021 12:40:39 +0100, MB <MB@nospam.net> wrote:

    On 18/09/2021 11:50, Scott wrote:
    You mean I may be able to do this? Some dismantling would be needed
    Don't forget most radio controlled clocks only synchronise to MSF or >>>>> DCF77 once a day.
    I took the battery out and put it back in again so it was
    synchronised.

    Up to you but on some the hands are not fixed to the drive shaft and can >>> be moved. The synchronising system does not know where the hand is
    pointing.

    Thanks. The diagnosis was correct but the repair was less successful.
    After removing 10 screws I was able to remove the glass and get to the
    hands. However, the circle with the numbers on it had become
    detached. I tried to glue it but the glue escaped and got on the
    circle. I tried to remove the glue with a solvent and this damaged
    the number 12.

    Is this a good clock or just an expensive name:
    https://www.johnlewis.com/lascelles-radio-controlled-arabic-numeral-analogue-
    wall-clock-36cm/black/p4999121?sku=238703193&s_ppc=2dx92700065449632389&tmad=c&t
    mcampid=2&gclid=CjwKCAjw4qCKBhAVEiwAkTYsPJvNSj2F-FPQgvmODZqY2gKxDbkiLQQi1Cu25eyP
    Ow3Y9XXsM6nvzBoCfs0QAvD_BwE&gclsrc=aw.ds


    Dunno about that but I'd like this one for Xmas for the workshop;)...


    https://shop.iwm.org.uk/Replica-Duxford-RAF-sector-clock

    "Quartz movement powered by 1 AA battery (not included)."

    Another 20p movement.

    --
    Max Demian

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
    * Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)
  • From Roderick Stewart@21:1/5 to newsgroups@gefion.myzen.co.uk on Mon Sep 20 17:29:58 2021
    On Mon, 20 Sep 2021 12:57:41 +0100, Scott
    <newsgroups@gefion.myzen.co.uk> wrote:

    Is this a good clock or just an expensive name: >https://www.johnlewis.com/lascelles-radio-controlled-arabic-numeral-analogue-wall-clock-36cm/black/p4999121?sku=238703193&s_ppc=2dx92700065449632389&tmad=c&tmcampid=2&gclid=CjwKCAjw4qCKBhAVEiwAkTYsPJvNSj2F-
    FPQgvmODZqY2gKxDbkiLQQi1Cu25eyPOw3Y9XXsM6nvzBoCfs0QAvD_BwE&gclsrc=aw.ds

    Type "radio controlled clock" in the Amazon search box and you'll see
    lots to choose from at less than half the price. Argos have one in
    various colours at 15gbp.

    Rod.

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
    * Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)
  • From J. P. Gilliver (John)@21:1/5 to All on Mon Sep 20 17:17:32 2021
    On Mon, 20 Sep 2021 at 15:47:25, Scott <newsgroups@gefion.myzen.co.uk>
    wrote (my responses usually follow points raised):
    On Mon, 20 Sep 2021 14:36:04 +0100, John Williamson ><johnwilliamson@btinternet.com> wrote:

    On 20/09/2021 14:31, Scott wrote:

    I wondered. My granny used to say that you get what you pay for, but
    in the modern world I think this is now fake news.

    My dad used to say that you get no more than you pay for...

    I think that states the position more accurately.

    Even that's not always true; I've sometimes had excellent things for low prices. (Of late, not infrequently from Lidl/Aldi - though not reliably
    so.)
    --
    J. P. Gilliver. UMRA: 1960/<1985 MB++G()AL-IS-Ch++(p)Ar@T+H+Sh0!:`)DNAf

    "Mary Poppins is a junkie" - bumper sticker on Julie Andrews' car in the '60s

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
    * Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)
  • From Liz Tuddenham@21:1/5 to Roderick Stewart on Mon Sep 20 19:23:08 2021
    Roderick Stewart <rjfs@escapetime.myzen.co.uk> wrote:

    On Mon, 20 Sep 2021 12:57:41 +0100, Scott
    <newsgroups@gefion.myzen.co.uk> wrote:

    Is this a good clock or just an expensive name:

    https://www.johnlewis.com/lascelles-radio-controlled-arabic-numeral-ana logue-wall-clock-36cm/black/p4999121?sku=238703193&s_ppc=2dx927000654496 32389&tmad=c&tmcampid=2&gclid=CjwKCAjw4qCKBhAVEiwAkTYsPJvNSj2F-FPQgvmODZ qY2gKxDbkiLQQi1Cu25eyPOw3Y9XXsM6nvzBoCfs0QAvD_BwE&gclsrc=aw.ds

    Type "radio controlled clock" in the Amazon search box and you'll see
    lots to choose from at less than half the price. Argos have one in
    various colours at 15gbp.

    I bought a Chinese-made one from Argos a couple of years ago "Accurate
    to one second". It never managed to get within 5 seconds of the correct
    time because of a programming delay during start-up, so I took it back
    and got a refund. I was eventually given a secondhand German one (about
    30 years old) by a friend - and that has worked flawlessly.

    I expect Argos is still selling the same Chinese rubbish.

    --
    ~ Liz Tuddenham ~
    (Remove the ".invalid"s and add ".co.uk" to reply)
    www.poppyrecords.co.uk

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
    * Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)
  • From Bob Latham@21:1/5 to Max Demian on Mon Sep 20 19:41:43 2021
    In article <siacn9$c06$2@gioia.aioe.org>,
    Max Demian <max_demian@bigfoot.com> wrote:

    https://shop.iwm.org.uk/Replica-Duxford-RAF-sector-clock

    "Quartz movement powered by 1 AA battery (not included)."

    Another 20p movement.

    Earlier this year I purchased a slave clock from eBay. It's an ex GPO
    device out of a Welsh telephone exchange.

    These clocks are usually wired in series and rely on a pulse of
    around 200mA every 30 seconds from a master clock.

    The standard practice with these I believe is to rip out the strowger
    like mechanism and replace it with a cheap quartz movement.

    I wanted the click clack every 30 seconds these clocks make, it takes
    me back yer know. :-)

    I ordered the despised cheap quartz movement but threw most of it in
    the bin keeping only a tiny chip that gave a very accurate 1 second
    pulse. I then knocked up a divide by 30 counter in cmos, you can see
    where this is going...

    I knew drawing bursts of 200mA from batteries would kill them very
    quickly and so I trickle charge a 10,000uF capacitor from the battery
    and get a transistor to use the capacitor energy to power the timed
    pulse I send to the electro-magnet.

    It works very well and as accurate as the quartz mech would have been
    but I still only get about 10 weeks out of a set of 4 AA batteries.
    Still, I got it to work as it should and I get the memory filled
    click clack every 30 seconds - till the batteries die.

    The devil finds work...

    Bob.

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
    * Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)
  • From Liz Tuddenham@21:1/5 to Bob Latham on Mon Sep 20 21:13:10 2021
    Bob Latham <bob@sick-of-spam.invalid> wrote:

    [...]
    I knew drawing bursts of 200mA from batteries would kill them very
    quickly and so I trickle charge a 10,000uF capacitor from the battery
    and get a transistor to use the capacitor energy to power the timed
    pulse I send to the electro-magnet.

    Could you recover energy from the inductance of the magnet so as to
    partially pre-charge the capacitor for the next pulse? Some arrangement
    like a television line output transformer with an efficiency diode would
    reduce the overall battery consumption.

    Also, could you electronically detect the magnet current and cut it off
    as soon as the armature has reached the end of its travel? Any current
    after that time is just wasted in the resistance of the magnet windings.


    --
    ~ Liz Tuddenham ~
    (Remove the ".invalid"s and add ".co.uk" to reply)
    www.poppyrecords.co.uk

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
    * Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)
  • From Scott@21:1/5 to Liz Tuddenham on Mon Sep 20 20:31:42 2021
    On Mon, 20 Sep 2021 19:23:08 +0100, liz@poppyrecords.invalid.invalid
    (Liz Tuddenham) wrote:

    Roderick Stewart <rjfs@escapetime.myzen.co.uk> wrote:

    On Mon, 20 Sep 2021 12:57:41 +0100, Scott
    <newsgroups@gefion.myzen.co.uk> wrote:

    Is this a good clock or just an expensive name:

    https://www.johnlewis.com/lascelles-radio-controlled-arabic-numeral-ana >logue-wall-clock-36cm/black/p4999121?sku=238703193&s_ppc=2dx927000654496 >32389&tmad=c&tmcampid=2&gclid=CjwKCAjw4qCKBhAVEiwAkTYsPJvNSj2F-FPQgvmODZ >qY2gKxDbkiLQQi1Cu25eyPOw3Y9XXsM6nvzBoCfs0QAvD_BwE&gclsrc=aw.ds

    Type "radio controlled clock" in the Amazon search box and you'll see
    lots to choose from at less than half the price. Argos have one in
    various colours at 15gbp.

    I bought a Chinese-made one from Argos a couple of years ago "Accurate
    to one second". It never managed to get within 5 seconds of the correct
    time because of a programming delay during start-up, so I took it back
    and got a refund. I was eventually given a secondhand German one (about
    30 years old) by a friend - and that has worked flawlessly.

    I expect Argos is still selling the same Chinese rubbish.

    Sounds like good fortune the one I looked at earlier was out of stock.
    Will it not be the case that many clocks share the same 'movement'?

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
    * Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)
  • From James Heaton@21:1/5 to Max Demian on Mon Sep 20 21:42:01 2021
    "Bob Latham" wrote in message news:596f0cf840bob@sick-of-spam.invalid...

    In article <siacn9$c06$2@gioia.aioe.org>,
    Max Demian <max_demian@bigfoot.com> wrote:

    https://shop.iwm.org.uk/Replica-Duxford-RAF-sector-clock

    "Quartz movement powered by 1 AA battery (not included)."

    Another 20p movement.

    Earlier this year I purchased a slave clock from eBay. It's an ex GPO
    device out of a Welsh telephone exchange.

    Bob are you aware there's a couple of good Facebook groups for ex-BT south wales staff?

    I'm a member of them - got invited by some old friends of Dad after I spoke about losing him on telly. (you'd remember him if you'd met him...)

    Let me know if you want detail?

    James

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
    * Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)
  • From Bob Latham@21:1/5 to Liz Tuddenham on Tue Sep 21 07:40:40 2021
    In article <1pftp86.a7w24wc25z40N%liz@poppyrecords.invalid.invalid>,
    Liz Tuddenham <liz@poppyrecords.invalid.invalid> wrote:
    Bob Latham <bob@sick-of-spam.invalid> wrote:

    [...]
    I knew drawing bursts of 200mA from batteries would kill them
    very quickly and so I trickle charge a 10,000uF capacitor from
    the battery and get a transistor to use the capacitor energy to
    power the timed pulse I send to the electro-magnet.

    Could you recover energy from the inductance of the magnet so as to
    partially pre-charge the capacitor for the next pulse? Some
    arrangement like a television line output transformer with an
    efficiency diode would reduce the overall battery consumption.

    That's an interesting idea. At the moment I have a diode across the
    coil to suppress the back emf so that the transistor doesn't fry.
    I'll have to have a look into that idea, thanks.

    Also, could you electronically detect the magnet current and cut it
    off as soon as the armature has reached the end of its travel? Any
    current after that time is just wasted in the resistance of the
    magnet windings.

    What you say is absolutely correct. The thing is though, I wanted the
    "the sound" from back in the day including the timing of operate and
    release.

    Cheers,

    Bob.

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
    * Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)
  • From Bob Latham@21:1/5 to James Heaton on Tue Sep 21 07:43:18 2021
    In article <siarmv$1una$1@gioia.aioe.org>,
    James Heaton <heatonandmoore@gmail.com.invalid> wrote:

    "Bob Latham" wrote in message news:596f0cf840bob@sick-of-spam.invalid...

    Earlier this year I purchased a slave clock from eBay. It's an ex
    GPO device out of a Welsh telephone exchange.

    Bob are you aware there's a couple of good Facebook groups for
    ex-BT south wales staff?

    The clock was from Wales not me. Thanks for the thought though.

    Bob.

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
    * Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)
  • From Liz Tuddenham@21:1/5 to Bob Latham on Tue Sep 21 08:29:24 2021
    Bob Latham <bob@sick-of-spam.invalid> wrote:

    In article <1pftp86.a7w24wc25z40N%liz@poppyrecords.invalid.invalid>,
    Liz Tuddenham <liz@poppyrecords.invalid.invalid> wrote:
    Bob Latham <bob@sick-of-spam.invalid> wrote:

    [...]
    I knew drawing bursts of 200mA from batteries would kill them
    very quickly and so I trickle charge a 10,000uF capacitor from
    the battery and get a transistor to use the capacitor energy to
    power the timed pulse I send to the electro-magnet.

    Could you recover energy from the inductance of the magnet so as to partially pre-charge the capacitor for the next pulse? Some
    arrangement like a television line output transformer with an
    efficiency diode would reduce the overall battery consumption.

    That's an interesting idea. At the moment I have a diode across the
    coil to suppress the back emf so that the transistor doesn't fry.
    I'll have to have a look into that idea, thanks.

    Also, could you electronically detect the magnet current and cut it
    off as soon as the armature has reached the end of its travel? Any
    current after that time is just wasted in the resistance of the
    magnet windings.

    What you say is absolutely correct. The thing is though, I wanted the
    "the sound" from back in the day including the timing of operate and
    release.

    Use a chopper to cut down the current to the minimum that will still
    hold the magnetic circuit closed?


    --
    ~ Liz Tuddenham ~
    (Remove the ".invalid"s and add ".co.uk" to reply)
    www.poppyrecords.co.uk

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
    * Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)
  • From Bob Latham@21:1/5 to Liz Tuddenham on Tue Sep 21 08:43:56 2021
    In article <1pfukst.g4j32vsv8dymN%liz@poppyrecords.invalid.invalid>,
    Liz Tuddenham <liz@poppyrecords.invalid.invalid> wrote:
    Bob Latham <bob@sick-of-spam.invalid> wrote:


    What you say is absolutely correct. The thing is though, I wanted
    the "the sound" from back in the day including the timing of
    operate and release.

    Use a chopper to cut down the current to the minimum that will still
    hold the magnetic circuit closed?

    Not exactly sure what you mean by a chopper. Could be pulses with a
    changing duty cycle?

    The need to run without wires, (God knows there's too many in my
    house as it is) means batteries and 6 volts from 4 x AA. As the
    battery ages the voltage drops. I suppose what it really needs is a
    constant current generator that can change value after say 100mS of
    the pulse.

    Bob.

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
    * Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)
  • From Roderick Stewart@21:1/5 to bob@sick-of-spam.invalid on Tue Sep 21 10:39:37 2021
    On Mon, 20 Sep 2021 19:41:43 +0100, Bob Latham
    <bob@sick-of-spam.invalid> wrote:

    Earlier this year I purchased a slave clock from eBay. It's an ex GPO
    device out of a Welsh telephone exchange.

    These clocks are usually wired in series and rely on a pulse of
    around 200mA every 30 seconds from a master clock.

    I remember those from BBC Wood Norton. They were all over the
    dormitory areas, and every one of them told a slightly different time.
    One of our introductory lectures stressed the importance of accurate timekeeping because we were now working in broadcasting, but
    presumably they meant by using our own watches.

    Rod.

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
    * Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)
  • From John Williamson@21:1/5 to John Williamson on Tue Sep 21 11:51:58 2021
    On 21/09/2021 11:49, John Williamson wrote:
    On 21/09/2021 10:39, Roderick Stewart wrote:
    On Mon, 20 Sep 2021 19:41:43 +0100, Bob Latham
    <bob@sick-of-spam.invalid> wrote:

    Earlier this year I purchased a slave clock from eBay. It's an ex GPO
    device out of a Welsh telephone exchange.

    These clocks are usually wired in series and rely on a pulse of
    around 200mA every 30 seconds from a master clock.

    I remember those from BBC Wood Norton. They were all over the
    dormitory areas, and every one of them told a slightly different time.
    One of our introductory lectures stressed the importance of accurate
    timekeeping because we were now working in broadcasting, but
    presumably they meant by using our own watches.

    Rod.

    Many moons ago, a friend of mine was in charge of the plant at a large hospital in London. They had a *lot* of slave clocks (Over a thousand
    rooms, with a clock in each) and a master in the basement, and when the master clock failed, it was cheaper to buy a lot of cheap battery
    powered, crystal controlled clocks than repair it.

    He found that the cheap clocks were more reliable and more likely to
    tell the correct time within a second or two than the slaved ones, even
    on a weekly check routine.

    Just to add that it would probably be cheaper now to just install a GPS
    unit in each room, as long as you could get a signal than install a master/slave system.

    --
    Tciao for Now!

    John.

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
    * Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)
  • From John Williamson@21:1/5 to Roderick Stewart on Tue Sep 21 11:49:23 2021
    On 21/09/2021 10:39, Roderick Stewart wrote:
    On Mon, 20 Sep 2021 19:41:43 +0100, Bob Latham
    <bob@sick-of-spam.invalid> wrote:

    Earlier this year I purchased a slave clock from eBay. It's an ex GPO
    device out of a Welsh telephone exchange.

    These clocks are usually wired in series and rely on a pulse of
    around 200mA every 30 seconds from a master clock.

    I remember those from BBC Wood Norton. They were all over the
    dormitory areas, and every one of them told a slightly different time.
    One of our introductory lectures stressed the importance of accurate timekeeping because we were now working in broadcasting, but
    presumably they meant by using our own watches.

    Rod.

    Many moons ago, a friend of mine was in charge of the plant at a large
    hospital in London. They had a *lot* of slave clocks (Over a thousand
    rooms, with a clock in each) and a master in the basement, and when the
    master clock failed, it was cheaper to buy a lot of cheap battery
    powered, crystal controlled clocks than repair it.

    He found that the cheap clocks were more reliable and more likely to
    tell the correct time within a second or two than the slaved ones, even
    on a weekly check routine.

    --
    Tciao for Now!

    John.

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
    * Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)
  • From Scott@21:1/5 to johnwilliamson@btinternet.com on Tue Sep 21 12:22:32 2021
    On Tue, 21 Sep 2021 11:51:58 +0100, John Williamson <johnwilliamson@btinternet.com> wrote:

    On 21/09/2021 11:49, John Williamson wrote:
    On 21/09/2021 10:39, Roderick Stewart wrote:
    On Mon, 20 Sep 2021 19:41:43 +0100, Bob Latham
    <bob@sick-of-spam.invalid> wrote:

    Earlier this year I purchased a slave clock from eBay. It's an ex GPO
    device out of a Welsh telephone exchange.

    These clocks are usually wired in series and rely on a pulse of
    around 200mA every 30 seconds from a master clock.

    I remember those from BBC Wood Norton. They were all over the
    dormitory areas, and every one of them told a slightly different time.
    One of our introductory lectures stressed the importance of accurate
    timekeeping because we were now working in broadcasting, but
    presumably they meant by using our own watches.

    Rod.

    Many moons ago, a friend of mine was in charge of the plant at a large
    hospital in London. They had a *lot* of slave clocks (Over a thousand
    rooms, with a clock in each) and a master in the basement, and when the
    master clock failed, it was cheaper to buy a lot of cheap battery
    powered, crystal controlled clocks than repair it.

    He found that the cheap clocks were more reliable and more likely to
    tell the correct time within a second or two than the slaved ones, even
    on a weekly check routine.

    Just to add that it would probably be cheaper now to just install a GPS
    unit in each room, as long as you could get a signal than install a >master/slave system.

    Why would GPS be better than MSF, where the thread started?

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
    * Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)
  • From J. P. Gilliver (John)@21:1/5 to johnwilliamson@btinternet.com on Tue Sep 21 12:21:08 2021
    On Tue, 21 Sep 2021 at 11:51:58, John Williamson <johnwilliamson@btinternet.com> wrote (my responses usually follow
    points raised):
    On 21/09/2021 11:49, John Williamson wrote:
    []
    Many moons ago, a friend of mine was in charge of the plant at a large
    hospital in London. They had a *lot* of slave clocks (Over a thousand
    rooms, with a clock in each) and a master in the basement, and when the
    master clock failed, it was cheaper to buy a lot of cheap battery
    powered, crystal controlled clocks than repair it.

    He found that the cheap clocks were more reliable and more likely to
    tell the correct time within a second or two than the slaved ones, even
    on a weekly check routine.

    Just to add that it would probably be cheaper now to just install a GPS
    unit in each room, as long as you could get a signal than install a >master/slave system.

    (Even more OT) Mention of a master clock reminds me of a clock I saw in,
    I think, Folkestone museum. It was a very accurate pendulum clock,
    weight driven, used to ensure the _long-term_ accuracy of the local
    electricity company before the Grid. I forget the details, but I think
    it was something like this: obviously, normally, the weight goes down as
    a pendulum clock operates; however, in this case, the weight was also
    raised - obviously _very_ slowly - by a geared-down synchronous motor
    from the local supply. If the weight remained within a given range, the
    supply frequency (or, more precisely, the total number of cycles across
    a period of time) was within limits.
    --
    J. P. Gilliver. UMRA: 1960/<1985 MB++G()AL-IS-Ch++(p)Ar@T+H+Sh0!:`)DNAf

    Anybody can garble quotations like that -- even with the Bible... Er... "And he went and hanged himself (Matthew 27:5). Go, and do thou likewise (Luke 10:37)."

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
    * Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)
  • From NY@21:1/5 to Roderick Stewart on Tue Sep 21 13:03:23 2021
    "Roderick Stewart" <rjfs@escapetime.myzen.co.uk> wrote in message news:ki9jkgdp7q30r490ie6a3u825fn69oq3ua@4ax.com...
    On Mon, 20 Sep 2021 19:41:43 +0100, Bob Latham
    <bob@sick-of-spam.invalid> wrote:

    Earlier this year I purchased a slave clock from eBay. It's an ex GPO >>device out of a Welsh telephone exchange.

    These clocks are usually wired in series and rely on a pulse of
    around 200mA every 30 seconds from a master clock.

    I remember those from BBC Wood Norton. They were all over the
    dormitory areas, and every one of them told a slightly different time.
    One of our introductory lectures stressed the importance of accurate timekeeping because we were now working in broadcasting, but
    presumably they meant by using our own watches.

    I remember they had master-slave clocks all over one of my schools. There
    were several down one long corridor. It was weird to be standing at one end
    of the corridor at xx:yy:59 and hear a ripple of clonks from all the clocks
    as their minute hands moved on by one minute. They all moved at the same
    time, but the speed of sound played its part, so the noise from the furthest clock was delayed most.

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
    * Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)
  • From Bob Latham@21:1/5 to John Williamson on Tue Sep 21 13:11:14 2021
    In article <iqtrlkFkt2nU1@mid.individual.net>,
    John Williamson <johnwilliamson@btinternet.com> wrote:
    On 21/09/2021 10:39, Roderick Stewart wrote:
    On Mon, 20 Sep 2021 19:41:43 +0100, Bob Latham
    <bob@sick-of-spam.invalid> wrote:

    Earlier this year I purchased a slave clock from eBay. It's an ex GPO
    device out of a Welsh telephone exchange.

    These clocks are usually wired in series and rely on a pulse of
    around 200mA every 30 seconds from a master clock.

    I remember those from BBC Wood Norton. They were all over the
    dormitory areas, and every one of them told a slightly different
    time. One of our introductory lectures stressed the importance of
    accurate timekeeping because we were now working in broadcasting,
    but presumably they meant by using our own watches.

    Rod.

    Many moons ago, a friend of mine was in charge of the plant at a
    large hospital in London. They had a *lot* of slave clocks (Over a
    thousand rooms, with a clock in each) and a master in the basement,
    and when the master clock failed, it was cheaper to buy a lot of
    cheap battery powered, crystal controlled clocks than repair it.

    He found that the cheap clocks were more reliable and more likely
    to tell the correct time within a second or two than the slaved
    ones, even on a weekly check routine.

    I don't disagree with anything said above. My clock works fine within
    a limitation of 30 second variance and its long term accuracy is very
    good thanks to quartz. However, it's not a practical clock, that
    wasn't the point at all.

    Bob.

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
    * Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)
  • From J. P. Gilliver (John)@21:1/5 to All on Tue Sep 21 13:20:25 2021
    On Tue, 21 Sep 2021 at 12:22:32, Scott <newsgroups@gefion.myzen.co.uk>
    wrote (my responses usually follow points raised):
    On Tue, 21 Sep 2021 11:51:58 +0100, John Williamson ><johnwilliamson@btinternet.com> wrote:
    []
    Just to add that it would probably be cheaper now to just install a GPS >>unit in each room, as long as you could get a signal than install a >>master/slave system.

    Why would GPS be better than MSF, where the thread started?

    Not better, but might be cheaper and/or work better; GPS receivers are
    now cheap, common, and compact; I don't think MSF ones are any of those,
    and may also (isn't it VLF?) be more orientation- and
    position-sensitive.
    --
    J. P. Gilliver. UMRA: 1960/<1985 MB++G()AL-IS-Ch++(p)Ar@T+H+Sh0!:`)DNAf

    Never be led astray onto the path of virtue.

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
    * Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)
  • From John Williamson@21:1/5 to Scott on Tue Sep 21 13:33:17 2021
    On 21/09/2021 12:22, Scott wrote:


    Why would GPS be better than MSF, where the thread started?

    Not better than MFS, but cheaper than a master/ slave system, which may
    get its reference via MFS or GPS, or even, in many cases, the mains
    frequency.

    A GPS receiver now is a cheap way to get a pretty good time reference.
    The land based services probably have better indoor coverage, though,
    due to the frequency band they use, though they seem to have problems in
    many areas of the country, from posts I read here and elsewhere. I can
    get a reliable GPS signal even inside the steel cabined, steel hulled
    boat I am sitting in, without having to put the aerial outside, though
    it does need to be somewhere near a window.

    Then again, I can also get a pretty good time signal from the cellular
    networks down to an accuracy of a second or less, even without a SIM in
    the phone or dongle.

    With a bit of cleverness, there are now many excellent time references available, both via landline or RF sources.

    The expensive bit is getting a decent display of the current time. The
    20 cent chinese movement is as accurate as its crystal or external
    reference lets it be during its life, though while a decent pendulum
    system can last for many decades or Centuries with care and regular
    maintenance (See Salisbury cathedral clock or the one in the Elizabeth
    clock tower in Westminster), the machine assembled cheapie will be as
    accurate as an expensive hand assembled one and is cheap enough to throw
    away when it fails.

    --
    Tciao for Now!

    John.

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
    * Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)
  • From Scott@21:1/5 to G6JPG@255soft.uk on Tue Sep 21 13:48:05 2021
    On Tue, 21 Sep 2021 13:20:25 +0100, "J. P. Gilliver (John)"
    <G6JPG@255soft.uk> wrote:

    On Tue, 21 Sep 2021 at 12:22:32, Scott <newsgroups@gefion.myzen.co.uk>
    wrote (my responses usually follow points raised):
    On Tue, 21 Sep 2021 11:51:58 +0100, John Williamson >><johnwilliamson@btinternet.com> wrote:
    []
    Just to add that it would probably be cheaper now to just install a GPS >>>unit in each room, as long as you could get a signal than install a >>>master/slave system.

    Why would GPS be better than MSF, where the thread started?

    Not better, but might be cheaper and/or work better; GPS receivers are
    now cheap, common, and compact; I don't think MSF ones are any of those,
    and may also (isn't it VLF?) be more orientation- and
    position-sensitive.

    MSF is certainly compact as it's part of the clock: https://www.argos.co.uk/product/8438997?clickSR=slp:term:radio%20controlled%20wall%20clock:2:135:1
    I'll leave you to decide whether £15 is cheap.

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
    * Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)
  • From Scott@21:1/5 to rjfs@escapetime.myzen.co.uk on Tue Sep 21 15:08:20 2021
    On Mon, 20 Sep 2021 17:29:58 +0100, Roderick Stewart <rjfs@escapetime.myzen.co.uk> wrote:

    On Mon, 20 Sep 2021 12:57:41 +0100, Scott
    <newsgroups@gefion.myzen.co.uk> wrote:

    Is this a good clock or just an expensive name: >>https://www.johnlewis.com/lascelles-radio-controlled-arabic-numeral-analogue-wall-clock-36cm/black/p4999121?sku=238703193&s_ppc=2dx92700065449632389&tmad=c&tmcampid=2&gclid=CjwKCAjw4qCKBhAVEiwAkTYsPJvNSj2F-
    FPQgvmODZqY2gKxDbkiLQQi1Cu25eyPOw3Y9XXsM6nvzBoCfs0QAvD_BwE&gclsrc=aw.ds

    Type "radio controlled clock" in the Amazon search box and you'll see
    lots to choose from at less than half the price. Argos have one in
    various colours at 15gbp.

    Good plan. After cashing in my Nectar points it cost me £5.

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
    * Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)
  • From Scott@21:1/5 to johnwilliamson@btinternet.com on Tue Sep 21 15:25:18 2021
    On Tue, 21 Sep 2021 15:15:31 +0100, John Williamson <johnwilliamson@btinternet.com> wrote:

    On 21/09/2021 13:48, Scott wrote:
    On Tue, 21 Sep 2021 13:20:25 +0100, "J. P. Gilliver (John)"
    <G6JPG@255soft.uk> wrote:

    On Tue, 21 Sep 2021 at 12:22:32, Scott <newsgroups@gefion.myzen.co.uk>
    wrote (my responses usually follow points raised):
    On Tue, 21 Sep 2021 11:51:58 +0100, John Williamson
    <johnwilliamson@btinternet.com> wrote:
    []
    Just to add that it would probably be cheaper now to just install a GPS >>>>> unit in each room, as long as you could get a signal than install a
    master/slave system.

    Why would GPS be better than MSF, where the thread started?

    Not better, but might be cheaper and/or work better; GPS receivers are
    now cheap, common, and compact; I don't think MSF ones are any of those, >>> and may also (isn't it VLF?) be more orientation- and
    position-sensitive.

    MSF is certainly compact as it's part of the clock:
    https://www.argos.co.uk/product/8438997?clickSR=slp:term:radio%20controlled%20wall%20clock:2:135:1
    I'll leave you to decide whether £15 is cheap.

    Cheap enough, but all we can tell is that the receiver is smaller than
    the clock face. The independent module I found is about 200x100x15mm mm, >including the aerial but which needs an external power supply, and which >needs to be that size due to the wavelength of the signal.

    I would have thought fitting the clock was the sole consideration.

    My independent Satnav receiver is about 50mm square, and is about 10 mm
    thick including a battery that will last up to 12 hours. The circuit
    board is about 4mm thick including all components, a bluetooth interface
    and a printed on antenna.

    My clock battery lasts about 12 months, never mind 12 hours. I am
    unconvinced about the merits of GPS horology.

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
    * Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)
  • From John Williamson@21:1/5 to Scott on Tue Sep 21 15:15:31 2021
    On 21/09/2021 13:48, Scott wrote:
    On Tue, 21 Sep 2021 13:20:25 +0100, "J. P. Gilliver (John)" <G6JPG@255soft.uk> wrote:

    On Tue, 21 Sep 2021 at 12:22:32, Scott <newsgroups@gefion.myzen.co.uk>
    wrote (my responses usually follow points raised):
    On Tue, 21 Sep 2021 11:51:58 +0100, John Williamson
    <johnwilliamson@btinternet.com> wrote:
    []
    Just to add that it would probably be cheaper now to just install a GPS >>>> unit in each room, as long as you could get a signal than install a
    master/slave system.

    Why would GPS be better than MSF, where the thread started?

    Not better, but might be cheaper and/or work better; GPS receivers are
    now cheap, common, and compact; I don't think MSF ones are any of those,
    and may also (isn't it VLF?) be more orientation- and
    position-sensitive.

    MSF is certainly compact as it's part of the clock: https://www.argos.co.uk/product/8438997?clickSR=slp:term:radio%20controlled%20wall%20clock:2:135:1
    I'll leave you to decide whether £15 is cheap.

    Cheap enough, but all we can tell is that the receiver is smaller than
    the clock face. The independent module I found is about 200x100x15mm mm, including the aerial but which needs an external power supply, and which
    needs to be that size due to the wavelength of the signal.

    My independent Satnav receiver is about 50mm square, and is about 10 mm
    thick including a battery that will last up to 12 hours. The circuit
    board is about 4mm thick including all components, a bluetooth interface
    and a printed on antenna.

    --
    Tciao for Now!

    John.

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
    * Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)
  • From MB@21:1/5 to All on Tue Sep 21 17:01:22 2021
    On 21/09/2021 13:20, J. P. Gilliver (John) wrote:
    Not better, but might be cheaper and/or work better; GPS receivers are
    now cheap, common, and compact; I don't think MSF ones are any of those,
    and may also (isn't it VLF?) be more orientation- and
    position-sensitive.

    The big disadvantage of MSF was it being off one day a week and longer
    once a year.

    My original MSF clock had a big button across the top so you could light
    up the display to read it at night. It was liable to switch on in the
    suitcase so I had to remove the battery when travelling so a problem if
    MSF was off that day.

    My next one was DCF77 and could close up for travelling so no risk of
    being switched on by accident.

    They are both Junghans.

    I got another more recently from Argos, it has an illuminated display so
    very useful at night - it needs mains power to be illuminated but will
    run off batteries when not plugged in.

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
    * Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)
  • From Liz Tuddenham@21:1/5 to Bob Latham on Tue Sep 21 22:12:54 2021
    Bob Latham <bob@sick-of-spam.invalid> wrote:

    In article <1pfukst.g4j32vsv8dymN%liz@poppyrecords.invalid.invalid>,
    Liz Tuddenham <liz@poppyrecords.invalid.invalid> wrote:
    Bob Latham <bob@sick-of-spam.invalid> wrote:


    What you say is absolutely correct. The thing is though, I wanted
    the "the sound" from back in the day including the timing of
    operate and release.

    Use a chopper to cut down the current to the minimum that will still
    hold the magnetic circuit closed?

    Not exactly sure what you mean by a chopper. Could be pulses with a
    changing duty cycle?

    The need to run without wires, (God knows there's too many in my
    house as it is) means batteries and 6 volts from 4 x AA. As the
    battery ages the voltage drops. I suppose what it really needs is a
    constant current generator that can change value after say 100mS of
    the pulse.

    Something like that, but using the inductance of the clock magnet or an external inductor with a variable on/off ratio switch, rather than a
    resistive (analogue transistor) current control system which will waste
    energy.


    --
    ~ Liz Tuddenham ~
    (Remove the ".invalid"s and add ".co.uk" to reply)
    www.poppyrecords.co.uk

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
    * Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)
  • From Scott@21:1/5 to MB@nospam.net on Wed Sep 22 09:51:41 2021
    On Tue, 21 Sep 2021 17:01:22 +0100, MB <MB@nospam.net> wrote:

    On 21/09/2021 13:20, J. P. Gilliver (John) wrote:
    Not better, but might be cheaper and/or work better; GPS receivers are
    now cheap, common, and compact; I don't think MSF ones are any of those,
    and may also (isn't it VLF?) be more orientation- and
    position-sensitive.

    The big disadvantage of MSF was it being off one day a week and longer
    once a year.

    Why does the Anthorn transmitter seem to need so much more maintenance
    than ordinary broadcast transmitters?

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
    * Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)
  • From MB@21:1/5 to Scott on Wed Sep 22 11:44:39 2021
    On 22/09/2021 09:51, Scott wrote:
    Why does the Anthorn transmitter seem to need so much more maintenance
    than ordinary broadcast transmitters?

    Does it?

    It operates 24/7 and only one transmitter so they cannot switch off
    leave people to listen to others carrying the same service.

    DCF77 has a second transmitter on a different site, MSF could do that
    but it would cost a lot more.

    It can annoying but not not noecessary for most users.

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
    * Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)
  • From tony sayer@21:1/5 to All on Wed Sep 22 13:24:32 2021
    In article <siacn9$c06$2@gioia.aioe.org>, Max Demian
    <max_demian@bigfoot.com> scribeth thus
    On 20/09/2021 14:52, tony sayer wrote:
    In article <fitgkgl2ucs9bqsmf7lp3b9q1nu2aii4te@4ax.com>, Scott
    <newsgroups@gefion.myzen.co.uk> scribeth thus
    On Sat, 18 Sep 2021 12:40:39 +0100, MB <MB@nospam.net> wrote:

    On 18/09/2021 11:50, Scott wrote:
    You mean I may be able to do this? Some dismantling would be needed >>>>>> Don't forget most radio controlled clocks only synchronise to MSF or >>>>>> DCF77 once a day.
    I took the battery out and put it back in again so it was
    synchronised.

    Up to you but on some the hands are not fixed to the drive shaft and can >>>> be moved. The synchronising system does not know where the hand is
    pointing.

    Thanks. The diagnosis was correct but the repair was less successful.
    After removing 10 screws I was able to remove the glass and get to the
    hands. However, the circle with the numbers on it had become
    detached. I tried to glue it but the glue escaped and got on the
    circle. I tried to remove the glue with a solvent and this damaged
    the number 12.

    Is this a good clock or just an expensive name:
    https://www.johnlewis.com/lascelles-radio-controlled-arabic-numeral-analogue-
    wall-clock-36cm/black/p4999121?sku=238703193&s_ppc=2dx92700065449632389&tmad=
    c&t
    mcampid=2&gclid=CjwKCAjw4qCKBhAVEiwAkTYsPJvNSj2F-FPQgvmODZqY2gKxDbkiLQQi1Cu25
    eyP
    Ow3Y9XXsM6nvzBoCfs0QAvD_BwE&gclsrc=aw.ds


    Dunno about that but I'd like this one for Xmas for the workshop;)...


    https://shop.iwm.org.uk/Replica-Duxford-RAF-sector-clock

    "Quartz movement powered by 1 AA battery (not included)."

    Another 20p movement.



    Yep expect so, but if the Duxford museum makes a few quid on it fine by
    me:)...


    --
    Tony Sayer


    Man is least himself when he talks in his own person.

    Give him a keyboard, and he will reveal himself.

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
    * Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)
  • From Scott@21:1/5 to MB@nospam.net on Wed Sep 22 15:10:37 2021
    On Wed, 22 Sep 2021 11:44:39 +0100, MB <MB@nospam.net> wrote:

    On 22/09/2021 09:51, Scott wrote:
    Why does the Anthorn transmitter seem to need so much more maintenance
    than ordinary broadcast transmitters?

    Does it?

    It operates 24/7 and only one transmitter so they cannot switch off
    leave people to listen to others carrying the same service.

    How many long wave transmitters does Droitwich have (as the closest
    parallel)? I don't think it closes for two weeks each year.

    DCF77 has a second transmitter on a different site, MSF could do that
    but it would cost a lot more.

    It can annoying but not not noecessary for most users.

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
    * Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)
  • From Scott@21:1/5 to All on Wed Sep 22 15:36:54 2021
    On Wed, 22 Sep 2021 15:12:41 +0100, charles <charles@candehope.me.uk>
    wrote:

    In article <sif1d1$it9$1@dont-email.me>,
    MB <MB@nospam.net> wrote:
    On 22/09/2021 09:51, Scott wrote:
    Why does the Anthorn transmitter seem to need so much more maintenance
    than ordinary broadcast transmitters?

    Does it?

    It operates 24/7 and only one transmitter so they cannot switch off
    leave people to listen to others carrying the same service.

    DCF77 has a second transmitter on a different site, MSF could do that
    but it would cost a lot more.

    yes, they could have kept Rugby. Drove past it on Monday - field full of
    wind turbines.

    It can annoying but not not noecessary for most users.

    What about Droitwich? Could it be used as a reserve transmitter?

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
    * Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)
  • From charles@21:1/5 to MB@nospam.net on Wed Sep 22 15:12:41 2021
    In article <sif1d1$it9$1@dont-email.me>,
    MB <MB@nospam.net> wrote:
    On 22/09/2021 09:51, Scott wrote:
    Why does the Anthorn transmitter seem to need so much more maintenance
    than ordinary broadcast transmitters?

    Does it?

    It operates 24/7 and only one transmitter so they cannot switch off
    leave people to listen to others carrying the same service.

    DCF77 has a second transmitter on a different site, MSF could do that
    but it would cost a lot more.

    yes, they could have kept Rugby. Drove past it on Monday - field full of
    wind turbines.

    It can annoying but not not noecessary for most users.

    --
    from KT24 in Surrey, England
    "I'd rather die of exhaustion than die of boredom" Thomas Carlyle

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
    * Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)
  • From charles@21:1/5 to Scott on Wed Sep 22 16:16:21 2021
    In article <grfmkgdtelnjdqal1jo2p7vi5eq824jcdt@4ax.com>,
    Scott <newsgroups@gefion.myzen.co.uk> wrote:
    On Wed, 22 Sep 2021 15:12:41 +0100, charles <charles@candehope.me.uk>
    wrote:

    In article <sif1d1$it9$1@dont-email.me>,
    MB <MB@nospam.net> wrote:
    On 22/09/2021 09:51, Scott wrote:
    Why does the Anthorn transmitter seem to need so much more maintenance >> > than ordinary broadcast transmitters?

    Does it?

    It operates 24/7 and only one transmitter so they cannot switch off
    leave people to listen to others carrying the same service.

    DCF77 has a second transmitter on a different site, MSF could do that
    but it would cost a lot more.

    yes, they could have kept Rugby. Drove past it on Monday - field full of >wind turbines.

    It can annoying but not not noecessary for most users.

    What about Droitwich? Could it be used as a reserve transmitter?


    somewhat different frequency.

    --
    from KT24 in Surrey, England
    "I'd rather die of exhaustion than die of boredom" Thomas Carlyle

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
    * Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)
  • From Scott@21:1/5 to All on Wed Sep 22 16:37:44 2021
    On Wed, 22 Sep 2021 16:16:21 +0100, charles <charles@candehope.me.uk>
    wrote:

    In article <grfmkgdtelnjdqal1jo2p7vi5eq824jcdt@4ax.com>,
    Scott <newsgroups@gefion.myzen.co.uk> wrote:
    On Wed, 22 Sep 2021 15:12:41 +0100, charles <charles@candehope.me.uk>
    wrote:

    In article <sif1d1$it9$1@dont-email.me>,
    MB <MB@nospam.net> wrote:
    On 22/09/2021 09:51, Scott wrote:
    Why does the Anthorn transmitter seem to need so much more maintenance >> >> > than ordinary broadcast transmitters?

    Does it?

    It operates 24/7 and only one transmitter so they cannot switch off
    leave people to listen to others carrying the same service.

    DCF77 has a second transmitter on a different site, MSF could do that
    but it would cost a lot more.

    yes, they could have kept Rugby. Drove past it on Monday - field full of
    wind turbines.

    It can annoying but not not noecessary for most users.

    What about Droitwich? Could it be used as a reserve transmitter?

    somewhat different frequency.

    I'm just asking, but if my arithmetic is correct 60kHz is 5000 metres
    so the half wavelength is far in excess of the dimensions of the main
    antenna. Could the same antenna be used for R4 (1515 metres) and the
    time transmitter?

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
    * Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)
  • From MB@21:1/5 to Scott on Wed Sep 22 17:49:15 2021
    On 22/09/2021 16:37, Scott wrote:
    I'm just asking, but if my arithmetic is correct 60kHz is 5000 metres
    so the half wavelength is far in excess of the dimensions of the main antenna. Could the same antenna be used for R4 (1515 metres) and the
    time transmitter?

    Most professionals seem to use GPS - you will see an antenna on every
    mobile radio base station, probably several.

    How many use MSF? It is a lot of expense for very few users who can all
    use other services.

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
    * Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)
  • From Max Demian@21:1/5 to All on Wed Sep 22 17:42:18 2021
    On 22/09/2021 11:44, MB wrote:
    On 22/09/2021 09:51, Scott wrote:

    Why does the Anthorn transmitter seem to need so much more maintenance
    than ordinary broadcast transmitters?

    Does it?

    It operates 24/7 and only one transmitter so they cannot switch off
    leave people to listen to others carrying the same service.

    It frequently turns off during the day:
    https://www.npl.co.uk/msf-signal - see "MSF Signal Outages and Scheduled Periods"

    This is a nuisance if you need to change the battery.

    --
    Max Demian

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
    * Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)
  • From tony sayer@21:1/5 to All on Wed Sep 22 19:55:42 2021
    In article <sif1d1$it9$1@dont-email.me>, MB <MB@nospam.net> scribeth
    thus
    On 22/09/2021 09:51, Scott wrote:
    Why does the Anthorn transmitter seem to need so much more maintenance
    than ordinary broadcast transmitters?

    Does it?

    It operates 24/7 and only one transmitter so they cannot switch off
    leave people to listen to others carrying the same service.

    DCF77 has a second transmitter on a different site, MSF could do that
    but it would cost a lot more.

    It can annoying but not not noecessary for most users.

    Umm .. OK then but what about 198 kHz at Droitwich?..

    How often this that off-line or on reduced power?...


    --
    Tony Sayer


    Man is least himself when he talks in his own person.

    Give him a keyboard, and he will reveal himself.

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
    * Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)
  • From tony sayer@21:1/5 to All on Wed Sep 22 20:02:00 2021
    In article <596ffc0324charles@candehope.me.uk>, charles <charles@candehope.me.uk> scribeth thus
    In article <sif1d1$it9$1@dont-email.me>,
    MB <MB@nospam.net> wrote:
    On 22/09/2021 09:51, Scott wrote:
    Why does the Anthorn transmitter seem to need so much more maintenance
    than ordinary broadcast transmitters?

    Does it?

    It operates 24/7 and only one transmitter so they cannot switch off
    leave people to listen to others carrying the same service.

    DCF77 has a second transmitter on a different site, MSF could do that
    but it would cost a lot more.

    yes, they could have kept Rugby. Drove past it on Monday - field full of
    wind turbines.


    Pity they didn't put something of use there then;!....


    It can annoying but not not noecessary for most users.


    --
    Tony Sayer


    Man is least himself when he talks in his own person.

    Give him a keyboard, and he will reveal himself.

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
    * Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)
  • From tony sayer@21:1/5 to All on Wed Sep 22 20:07:20 2021
    In article <sifmol$f27$1@dont-email.me>, MB <MB@nospam.net> scribeth
    thus
    On 22/09/2021 16:37, Scott wrote:
    I'm just asking, but if my arithmetic is correct 60kHz is 5000 metres
    so the half wavelength is far in excess of the dimensions of the main
    antenna. Could the same antenna be used for R4 (1515 metres) and the
    time transmitter?

    Most professionals seem to use GPS - you will see an antenna on every
    mobile radio base station, probably several.

    How many use MSF? It is a lot of expense for very few users who can all
    use other services.


    Use GPS for frequency control of our test equipment in the workshop
    works very well too:)..

    This one..


    <http://www.leobodnar.com/shop/index.php?main_page=product_info&cPath=10 7&products_id=234>

    --
    Tony Sayer


    Man is least himself when he talks in his own person.

    Give him a keyboard, and he will reveal himself.

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
    * Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)
  • From tony sayer@21:1/5 to All on Wed Sep 22 20:09:25 2021
    In article <iqu1oeFm1qeU1@mid.individual.net>, John Williamson <johnwilliamson@btinternet.com> scribeth thus
    On 21/09/2021 12:22, Scott wrote:


    Why would GPS be better than MSF, where the thread started?

    Not better than MFS, but cheaper than a master/ slave system, which may
    get its reference via MFS or GPS, or even, in many cases, the mains >frequency.

    A GPS receiver now is a cheap way to get a pretty good time reference.
    The land based services probably have better indoor coverage, though,
    due to the frequency band they use, though they seem to have problems in
    many areas of the country, from posts I read here and elsewhere. I can
    get a reliable GPS signal even inside the steel cabined, steel hulled
    boat I am sitting in, without having to put the aerial outside, though
    it does need to be somewhere near a window.

    Then again, I can also get a pretty good time signal from the cellular >networks down to an accuracy of a second or less, even without a SIM in
    the phone or dongle.

    With a bit of cleverness, there are now many excellent time references >available, both via landline or RF sources.

    The expensive bit is getting a decent display of the current time. The
    20 cent chinese movement is as accurate as its crystal or external
    reference lets it be during its life, though while a decent pendulum
    system can last for many decades or Centuries with care and regular >maintenance (See Salisbury cathedral clock or the one in the Elizabeth
    clock tower in Westminster), the machine assembled cheapie will be as >accurate as an expensive hand assembled one and is cheap enough to throw
    away when it fails.


    OK but how do you stop her indoors from putting the damm thing 5, or 10
    mins fast then?....


    --
    Tony Sayer


    Man is least himself when he talks in his own person.

    Give him a keyboard, and he will reveal himself.

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
    * Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)
  • From John Williamson@21:1/5 to tony sayer on Wed Sep 22 20:28:52 2021
    On 22/09/2021 20:09, tony sayer wrote:

    OK but how do you stop her indoors from putting the damm thing 5, or 10
    mins fast then?....


    That is a PEBKAC type problem, and has nothing to do with the hardware.

    --
    Tciao for Now!

    John.

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
    * Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)
  • From Andy Burns@21:1/5 to All on Wed Sep 22 21:39:47 2021
    MB wrote:

    Scott wrote:

    Why does the Anthorn transmitter seem to need so much more maintenance
    than ordinary broadcast transmitters?

    Does it?

    4 hour downtime every 3 months

    <https://www.npl.co.uk/msf-signal>

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
    * Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)
  • From Roderick Stewart@21:1/5 to johnwilliamson@btinternet.com on Thu Sep 23 09:28:46 2021
    On Wed, 22 Sep 2021 20:28:52 +0100, John Williamson <johnwilliamson@btinternet.com> wrote:

    On 22/09/2021 20:09, tony sayer wrote:

    OK but how do you stop her indoors from putting the damm thing 5, or 10
    mins fast then?....


    That is a PEBKAC type problem, and has nothing to do with the hardware.

    Shouldn't that be PEBCAC? I'm struggling to think what K could stand
    for, but can think of plenty of things beginning with C.

    Rod.

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
    * Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)
  • From Roderick Stewart@21:1/5 to MB@nospam.net on Thu Sep 23 09:24:56 2021
    On Wed, 22 Sep 2021 17:49:15 +0100, MB <MB@nospam.net> wrote:

    How many use MSF? It is a lot of expense for very few users who can all
    use other services.

    There are possibly millions of radio controlled clocks in households
    all over the country that would be rendered useless if the service
    were discontinued.

    It's not an obsolete system like medium wave radio which is now
    effectively duplicated everywhere, and for which nearly everyone can
    be expected to have an alternative. Domestic radio controlled clocks
    and weather stations are sold in ever increasing variety via shops and
    online vendors, and they are all dependent on the signal from either
    MSF or DCF to enable them to work.

    Rod.

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
    * Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)
  • From Scott@21:1/5 to All on Thu Sep 23 09:59:03 2021
    On Wed, 22 Sep 2021 21:39:47 +0100, Andy Burns <usenet@andyburns.uk>
    wrote:

    MB wrote:

    Scott wrote:

    Why does the Anthorn transmitter seem to need so much more maintenance
    than ordinary broadcast transmitters?

    Does it?

    4 hour downtime every 3 months

    <https://www.npl.co.uk/msf-signal>

    I was going by the earlier comment (by MB) about it 'being off one day
    a week and longer once a year.'

    This appears to be 'fake news' (though there is the potential for a
    two week shutdown* during the summer). *possibly day only.

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
    * Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)
  • From Andy Burns@21:1/5 to Scott on Thu Sep 23 10:07:13 2021
    Scott wrote:

    Andy Burns wrote:

    4 hour downtime every 3 months

    I was going by the earlier comment (by MB) about it 'being off one day
    a week and longer once a year.'

    This appears to be 'fake news' (though there is the potential for a
    two week shutdown* during the summer). *possibly day only.

    I think they have had longer maintenance windows in the past.

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
    * Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)
  • From John Williamson@21:1/5 to Roderick Stewart on Thu Sep 23 10:04:01 2021
    On 23/09/2021 09:28, Roderick Stewart wrote:
    On Wed, 22 Sep 2021 20:28:52 +0100, John Williamson <johnwilliamson@btinternet.com> wrote:

    On 22/09/2021 20:09, tony sayer wrote:

    OK but how do you stop her indoors from putting the damm thing 5, or 10
    mins fast then?....


    That is a PEBKAC type problem, and has nothing to do with the hardware.

    Shouldn't that be PEBCAC? I'm struggling to think what K could stand
    for, but can think of plenty of things beginning with C.

    Rod.

    Problem Exists Between Keyboard And Chair.

    In this case, the keyboard is the set of little adjustment buttons or
    the rotary doofrit on the movement.

    --
    Tciao for Now!

    John.

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
    * Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)
  • From MB@21:1/5 to Andy Burns on Thu Sep 23 10:56:15 2021
    On 23/09/2021 10:07, Andy Burns wrote:
    I think they have had longer maintenance windows in the past.

    Probably mast painting and stay greasing, could be that the newer site
    does not require that now as maintenance systems have improved. I think
    even during the longer maintenance windows the service would run for a
    period overnight which should have been sufficient for most
    radio-controlled clocks but not for many other users though most will
    have migrated to DCF77 or GPS.

    It might not seem important but if you are running a system requiring
    accurate synchronisation, it needs to quickly synchronise on switch on
    or after a loss of mains supply.

    Years ago we had a couple of analogue TV transposers which used GPS to
    ensure the carrier frequency was more accurate that normal (courtesy of
    the Irish!), I can't remember now but they synchronised very quickly.

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
    * Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)
  • From Andy Burns@21:1/5 to All on Thu Sep 23 17:56:36 2021
    MB wrote:

    Andy Burns wrote:

    I think they have had longer maintenance windows in the past.

    Probably mast painting and stay greasing, could be that the newer site does not
    require that now as maintenance systems have improved.  I think even during the
    longer maintenance windows the service would run for a period overnight which should have been sufficient for most radio-controlled clocks but not for many other users though most will have migrated to DCF77 or GPS.

    An emergency services customer was using MSF and a Wharton receiver when it was at Rugby, I had to re-align the aerial for Anthorpe as it kept losing signal, they had a second system installed using GPS, I don't believe it ever had an antenna connected, I reported it a time or two, nothing ever happened, it was several minutes adrift last I checked.

    They're due to move site later this year and have decided an internet NTP server will do.

    It might not seem important but if you are running a system requiring accurate
    synchronisation, it needs to quickly synchronise on switch on or after a loss of
    mains supply.

    I should think worst case "cold start" for GPS (without A-GPS and an outdated almanac) is considerably slower than MSF

    Years ago we had a couple of analogue TV transposers which used GPS to ensure the carrier frequency was more accurate that normal (courtesy of the Irish!), I
    can't remember now but they synchronised very quickly.

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
    * Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)
  • From Roderick Stewart@21:1/5 to johnwilliamson@btinternet.com on Thu Sep 23 17:31:45 2021
    On Thu, 23 Sep 2021 10:04:01 +0100, John Williamson <johnwilliamson@btinternet.com> wrote:

    On 23/09/2021 09:28, Roderick Stewart wrote:
    On Wed, 22 Sep 2021 20:28:52 +0100, John Williamson
    <johnwilliamson@btinternet.com> wrote:

    On 22/09/2021 20:09, tony sayer wrote:

    OK but how do you stop her indoors from putting the damm thing 5, or 10 >>>> mins fast then?....


    That is a PEBKAC type problem, and has nothing to do with the hardware.

    Shouldn't that be PEBCAC? I'm struggling to think what K could stand
    for, but can think of plenty of things beginning with C.

    Rod.

    Problem Exists Between Keyboard And Chair.

    In this case, the keyboard is the set of little adjustment buttons or
    the rotary doofrit on the movement.

    Ah. I always thought it was between computer and chair.

    Plenty of things can go wrong with the use of a keyboard.

    Rod.

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
    * Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)
  • From Max Demian@21:1/5 to All on Thu Sep 23 17:30:52 2021
    On 23/09/2021 10:56, MB wrote:
    On 23/09/2021 10:07, Andy Burns wrote:
    I think they have had longer maintenance windows in the past.

    Probably mast painting and stay greasing, could be that the newer site
    does not require that now as maintenance systems have improved.  I think even during the longer maintenance windows the service would run for a
    period overnight which should have been sufficient for most
    radio-controlled clocks but not for many other users though most will
    have migrated to DCF77 or GPS.

    It might not seem important but if you are running a system requiring accurate synchronisation, it needs to quickly synchronise on switch on
    or after a loss of mains supply.

    I don't think there is any intention that the Anthorn transmitter
    provide a continuous time signal; radio controlled clocks are expected
    to have a (presumably quartz) circuit that is synchronised by radio periodically.

    --
    Max Demian

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
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  • From Tweed@21:1/5 to Andy Burns on Thu Sep 23 17:38:51 2021
    Andy Burns <usenet@andyburns.uk> wrote:
    MB wrote:

    Andy Burns wrote:

    I think they have had longer maintenance windows in the past.

    Probably mast painting and stay greasing, could be that the newer site does not
    require that now as maintenance systems have improved.  I think even during the
    longer maintenance windows the service would run for a period overnight which
    should have been sufficient for most radio-controlled clocks but not for many
    other users though most will have migrated to DCF77 or GPS.

    An emergency services customer was using MSF and a Wharton receiver when it was
    at Rugby, I had to re-align the aerial for Anthorpe as it kept losing signal, they had a second system installed using GPS, I don't believe it ever had an antenna connected, I reported it a time or two, nothing ever happened, it was several minutes adrift last I checked.

    They're due to move site later this year and have decided an internet NTP server will do.

    It might not seem important but if you are running a system requiring accurate
    synchronisation, it needs to quickly synchronise on switch on or after a loss of
    mains supply.

    I should think worst case "cold start" for GPS (without A-GPS and an outdated almanac) is considerably slower than MSF

    Years ago we had a couple of analogue TV transposers which used GPS to ensure
    the carrier frequency was more accurate that normal (courtesy of the Irish!), I
    can't remember now but they synchronised very quickly.



    A GPS receiver designed as time standard can cold start quickly. It can
    make the assumption that it hasn’t moved since it was last powered on.

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
    * Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)
  • From John Williamson@21:1/5 to Roderick Stewart on Thu Sep 23 18:41:34 2021
    On 23/09/2021 17:31, Roderick Stewart wrote:
    On Thu, 23 Sep 2021 10:04:01 +0100, John Williamson <johnwilliamson@btinternet.com> wrote:

    Problem Exists Between Keyboard And Chair.

    In this case, the keyboard is the set of little adjustment buttons or
    the rotary doofrit on the movement.

    Ah. I always thought it was between computer and chair.

    Plenty of things can go wrong with the use of a keyboard.

    <Grin> I have seen and used both.


    --
    Tciao for Now!

    John.

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
    * Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)
  • From MB@21:1/5 to Andy Burns on Thu Sep 23 19:01:47 2021
    On 23/09/2021 17:56, Andy Burns wrote:
    An emergency services customer was using MSF and a Wharton receiver when it was
    at Rugby, I had to re-align the aerial for Anthorpe as it kept losing signal, they had a second system installed using GPS, I don't believe it ever had an antenna connected, I reported it a time or two, nothing ever happened, it was several minutes adrift last I checked.

    Many years ago we were sent a frequency standard that locked to Radio 4
    Lond Wave. We gave up and sent it back because it never worked.

    Later all the RDS sites had a MSF receiver with an antenna was supposed
    to placed somewhere away from interference sources. They often lost
    signal and generated alarm which were usually muted.

    We used the GPS receivers at one site as our frequency standard for
    calibrating the frequency counters.

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
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  • From NY@21:1/5 to All on Thu Sep 23 20:48:07 2021
    "Max Demian" <max_demian@bigfoot.com> wrote in message news:YvmdnR-xdPZYNtH8nZ2dnUU78a_NnZ2d@brightview.co.uk...
    On 23/09/2021 10:56, MB wrote:
    On 23/09/2021 10:07, Andy Burns wrote:
    I think they have had longer maintenance windows in the past.

    Probably mast painting and stay greasing, could be that the newer site
    does not require that now as maintenance systems have improved. I think
    even during the longer maintenance windows the service would run for a
    period overnight which should have been sufficient for most
    radio-controlled clocks but not for many other users though most will
    have migrated to DCF77 or GPS.

    It might not seem important but if you are running a system requiring
    accurate synchronisation, it needs to quickly synchronise on switch on or
    after a loss of mains supply.

    I don't think there is any intention that the Anthorn transmitter provide
    a continuous time signal; radio controlled clocks are expected to have a (presumably quartz) circuit that is synchronised by radio periodically.

    Our "Rugby" alarm clock had a quartz clock which kept it going when the
    power was removed, but it didn't have a "sanity checker" on the
    radio-control to check whether the quartz time and the radio-controlled time were *reasonably* similar. It had a habit of setting itself to a random
    time, usually overnight, which meant the alarm went off in the middle of the night or didn't go off when it was time to get up. There was no way of
    manually setting the correct time, so you had to wait an unspecified time
    until it eventually set itself to the correct time.

    It became a liability because the alarm couldn't be trusted to go off at the time you'd set it (because the clock time was not always correct) so it went
    in the bin when we got Amazon Alexa Show devices.

    It wasn't even much good as a radio: the radio had no presets and had a thumbwheel to turn a mechanical (variable capacitor) tuning mechanism with
    very high gearing, so it was a pain if you wanted to flip to another
    station: you spent ages trying to get the tuning correct to the +/- 250 kHz that VHF needs with a thumbwheel that moved several MHz if you so much as breathed on it.

    I think it was Binatone - nuff said!

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
    * Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)
  • From J. P. Gilliver (John)@21:1/5 to All on Thu Sep 23 22:22:35 2021
    On Wed, 22 Sep 2021 at 16:37:44, Scott <newsgroups@gefion.myzen.co.uk>
    wrote (my responses usually follow points raised):
    []
    I'm just asking, but if my arithmetic is correct 60kHz is 5000 metres
    so the half wavelength is far in excess of the dimensions of the main >antenna. Could the same antenna be used for R4 (1515 metres) and the
    time transmitter?

    An interesting engineering challenge! I remember hearing or reading
    somewhere that in the VLF aerial, the majority of the radiation was
    actually from the uplead that went to the "aerial", which was mainly a
    capacity hat; whereas, whether that's true or not, I imagine the R4 one
    is some variant on a true dipole, 757.5 metres being achievable. It
    would be an interesting challenge to actually combine the two systems -
    like the multiband aerials radio hams like.
    --
    J. P. Gilliver. UMRA: 1960/<1985 MB++G()AL-IS-Ch++(p)Ar@T+H+Sh0!:`)DNAf

    All's well that ends.

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
    * Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)
  • From J. P. Gilliver (John)@21:1/5 to rjfs@escapetime.myzen.co.uk on Thu Sep 23 22:25:44 2021
    On Thu, 23 Sep 2021 at 09:24:56, Roderick Stewart
    <rjfs@escapetime.myzen.co.uk> wrote (my responses usually follow points raised):
    On Wed, 22 Sep 2021 17:49:15 +0100, MB <MB@nospam.net> wrote:

    How many use MSF? It is a lot of expense for very few users who can all >>use other services.

    There are possibly millions of radio controlled clocks in households
    all over the country that would be rendered useless if the service
    were discontinued.

    Most have a quartz clock backup; I suspect the majority only have the
    accurate time as a novelty that's nice to have.

    Besides, since when (in recent decades, anyway) has obsoleting lots of
    consumer equipment been of any concern to TPTB? Look at all the changes
    in DTV since it started.

    It's not an obsolete system like medium wave radio which is now
    effectively duplicated everywhere, and for which nearly everyone can
    be expected to have an alternative. Domestic radio controlled clocks
    and weather stations are sold in ever increasing variety via shops and
    online vendors, and they are all dependent on the signal from either
    MSF or DCF to enable them to work.

    Rod.
    --
    J. P. Gilliver. UMRA: 1960/<1985 MB++G()AL-IS-Ch++(p)Ar@T+H+Sh0!:`)DNAf

    All's well that ends.

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
    * Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)
  • From MB@21:1/5 to All on Thu Sep 23 23:06:45 2021
    On 23/09/2021 22:25, J. P. Gilliver (John) wrote:
    Most have a quartz clock backup; I suspect the majority only have the accurate time as a novelty that's nice to have.

    I always like to have an accurate clock, I used to have my (RDS) clock
    radio set to switch on at 0700h and got some satisfaction from the radio switching on exactly on the last of the GTS pips.

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
    * Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)
  • From J. P. Gilliver (John)@21:1/5 to Tweed on Thu Sep 23 22:33:30 2021
    On Thu, 23 Sep 2021 at 17:38:51, Tweed <usenet.tweed@gmail.com> wrote
    (my responses usually follow points raised):
    []
    A GPS receiver designed as time standard can cold start quickly. It can
    make the assumption that it hasn’t moved since it was last powered on.

    I remember in the early days of GPS, when there weren't many satellites
    up, Dave Green at Baddow proudly showing me a GPS receiver system (it
    was IIRR a full-length ISA or PCI card - he had an unusual laptop that
    could take such a card, IIRR), and proudly (though tongue-in cheek)
    telling me that B block (the building we were in) was proceeding north
    at half a knot, or something like that ... (-:
    --
    J. P. Gilliver. UMRA: 1960/<1985 MB++G()AL-IS-Ch++(p)Ar@T+H+Sh0!:`)DNAf

    All's well that ends.

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
    * Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)
  • From Tweed@21:1/5 to G6JPG@255soft.uk on Fri Sep 24 05:31:38 2021
    J. P. Gilliver (John) <G6JPG@255soft.uk> wrote:
    On Thu, 23 Sep 2021 at 17:38:51, Tweed <usenet.tweed@gmail.com> wrote
    (my responses usually follow points raised):
    []
    A GPS receiver designed as time standard can cold start quickly. It can
    make the assumption that it hasn’t moved since it was last powered on.

    I remember in the early days of GPS, when there weren't many satellites
    up, Dave Green at Baddow proudly showing me a GPS receiver system (it
    was IIRR a full-length ISA or PCI card - he had an unusual laptop that
    could take such a card, IIRR), and proudly (though tongue-in cheek)
    telling me that B block (the building we were in) was proceeding north
    at half a knot, or something like that ... (-:

    Im surprised it’s not possible to buy consumer grade clocks that use Wi-Fi
    to connect to the local network and then use NTP to get the time. NTP these days is a far better method of getting the exact time. And before you worry about losing network connections, if it is that critical to your
    application it is cheap to set up a local GPS based server.

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
    * Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)
  • From Andy Burns@21:1/5 to Tweed on Fri Sep 24 07:40:45 2021
    Tweed wrote:

    Im surprised it’s not possible to buy consumer grade clocks that use Wi-Fi to connect to the local network and then use NTP to get the time.

    <https://ao.com/product/lenovo-68674-301.aspx>

    Ok, it does more than a clock.

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
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  • From Tweed@21:1/5 to Andy Burns on Fri Sep 24 06:49:44 2021
    Andy Burns <usenet@andyburns.uk> wrote:
    Tweed wrote:

    Im surprised it’s not possible to buy consumer grade clocks that use Wi-Fi >> to connect to the local network and then use NTP to get the time.

    <https://ao.com/product/lenovo-68674-301.aspx>

    Ok, it does more than a clock.


    Not so bad but a little pricey, but not nearly as expensive as the NTP
    clocks I’ve so far discovered.

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
    * Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)
  • From MB@21:1/5 to Tweed on Fri Sep 24 07:58:12 2021
    On 24/09/2021 07:49, Tweed wrote:
    Not so bad but a little pricey, but not nearly as expensive as the NTP
    clocks I’ve so far discovered.

    Trying to remember the name of the wall mounted version of the Palm
    Pilot (I think), it did many of these functions about twenty years ago!

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
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  • From charles@21:1/5 to MB@nospam.net on Fri Sep 24 09:08:10 2021
    In article <siitnv$l71$1@dont-email.me>,
    MB <MB@nospam.net> wrote:
    On 23/09/2021 22:25, J. P. Gilliver (John) wrote:
    Most have a quartz clock backup; I suspect the majority only have the accurate time as a novelty that's nice to have.

    I always like to have an accurate clock, I used to have my (RDS) clock
    radio set to switch on at 0700h and got some satisfaction from the radio switching on exactly on the last of the GTS pips.

    It helps when going to catch a train

    --
    from KT24 in Surrey, England
    "I'd rather die of exhaustion than die of boredom" Thomas Carlyle

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
    * Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)
  • From Roderick Stewart@21:1/5 to G6JPG@255soft.uk on Fri Sep 24 10:29:42 2021
    On Thu, 23 Sep 2021 22:25:44 +0100, "J. P. Gilliver (John)"
    <G6JPG@255soft.uk> wrote:

    There are possibly millions of radio controlled clocks in households
    all over the country that would be rendered useless if the service
    were discontinued.

    Most have a quartz clock backup; I suspect the majority only have the >accurate time as a novelty that's nice to have.

    Yes, mine has a quartz backup, and will continue for a while if it
    loses the signal but will eventually try to resynchronise, which it
    does by quickly moving the hands to 12 o'clock and waiting for the
    signal to return. There is no other way of setting the time. The only
    control is a reset button. It would be useless if MSF disappeared.

    Rod.

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
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  • From John Williamson@21:1/5 to All on Fri Sep 24 10:36:32 2021
    On 23/09/2021 23:06, MB wrote:
    On 23/09/2021 22:25, J. P. Gilliver (John) wrote:
    Most have a quartz clock backup; I suspect the majority only have the
    accurate time as a novelty that's nice to have.

    I always like to have an accurate clock, I used to have my (RDS) clock
    radio set to switch on at 0700h and got some satisfaction from the radio switching on exactly on the last of the GTS pips.

    Did not work on DAB last time I tried it.

    --
    Tciao for Now!

    John.

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
    * Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)
  • From J. P. Gilliver (John)@21:1/5 to charles on Fri Sep 24 15:02:52 2021
    On Fri, 24 Sep 2021 at 09:08:10, charles <charles@candehope.me.uk> wrote
    (my responses usually follow points raised):
    In article <siitnv$l71$1@dont-email.me>,
    MB <MB@nospam.net> wrote:
    On 23/09/2021 22:25, J. P. Gilliver (John) wrote:
    Most have a quartz clock backup; I suspect the majority only have the
    accurate time as a novelty that's nice to have.

    I always like to have an accurate clock, I used to have my (RDS) clock
    radio set to switch on at 0700h and got some satisfaction from the radio
    switching on exactly on the last of the GTS pips.

    It helps when going to catch a train

    Really? My cheap Casio wristwatch (looks the same as one of their early
    models, other than being blue) drifts by less than two or three seconds
    a month; I can't see train-catching needing more accuracy than that.
    (Obviously I had to set it once.)
    --
    J. P. Gilliver. UMRA: 1960/<1985 MB++G()AL-IS-Ch++(p)Ar@T+H+Sh0!:`)DNAf

    Quantum particles: the dreams that stuff is made of - David Moser

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
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  • From John Williamson@21:1/5 to All on Fri Sep 24 15:15:21 2021
    On 24/09/2021 15:02, J. P. Gilliver (John) wrote:

    Really? My cheap Casio wristwatch (looks the same as one of their early models, other than being blue) drifts by less than two or three seconds
    a month; I can't see train-catching needing more accuracy than that. (Obviously I had to set it once.)

    I remember in the days before smartphones and GPS, I used to religiously
    check my new! shiny! digital! watch against the pips every morning, as I
    was in a job where I ran to a timetable, and people relied on me to get
    them to the right places at the right times.

    Nowadays, I just glance at my smartphone, which is within a second of
    everyone else's. The really cheap and narsty radio alarm that wakes ,e
    up in the mornings needs its batteries changing and a full reset every
    month or so, but as it's got its own crystal it works independently of
    mains power and broadcast time references. It's currently about two
    minutes fast.

    --
    Tciao for Now!

    John.

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
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  • From Brian Gregory@21:1/5 to Scott on Fri Sep 24 17:52:32 2021
    On 21/09/2021 15:25, Scott wrote:
    On Tue, 21 Sep 2021 15:15:31 +0100, John Williamson <johnwilliamson@btinternet.com> wrote:

    On 21/09/2021 13:48, Scott wrote:
    On Tue, 21 Sep 2021 13:20:25 +0100, "J. P. Gilliver (John)"
    <G6JPG@255soft.uk> wrote:

    On Tue, 21 Sep 2021 at 12:22:32, Scott <newsgroups@gefion.myzen.co.uk> >>>> wrote (my responses usually follow points raised):
    On Tue, 21 Sep 2021 11:51:58 +0100, John Williamson
    <johnwilliamson@btinternet.com> wrote:
    []
    Just to add that it would probably be cheaper now to just install a GPS >>>>>> unit in each room, as long as you could get a signal than install a >>>>>> master/slave system.

    Why would GPS be better than MSF, where the thread started?

    Not better, but might be cheaper and/or work better; GPS receivers are >>>> now cheap, common, and compact; I don't think MSF ones are any of those, >>>> and may also (isn't it VLF?) be more orientation- and
    position-sensitive.

    MSF is certainly compact as it's part of the clock:
    https://www.argos.co.uk/product/8438997?clickSR=slp:term:radio%20controlled%20wall%20clock:2:135:1
    I'll leave you to decide whether £15 is cheap.

    Cheap enough, but all we can tell is that the receiver is smaller than
    the clock face. The independent module I found is about 200x100x15mm mm,
    including the aerial but which needs an external power supply, and which
    needs to be that size due to the wavelength of the signal.

    I would have thought fitting the clock was the sole consideration.

    My independent Satnav receiver is about 50mm square, and is about 10 mm
    thick including a battery that will last up to 12 hours. The circuit
    board is about 4mm thick including all components, a bluetooth interface
    and a printed on antenna.

    My clock battery lasts about 12 months, never mind 12 hours. I am unconvinced about the merits of GPS horology.


    The way I see it the main advantage of GPS would be much better immunity
    to impulse noise and interference from nearby switch mode power
    supplies, light dimmers, unscreened plastic cased digital devices and so
    on. Also almost zero chance of syncing to the incorrect time because of
    modern more robust error checking in GPS compared to simple parity bits
    in MSF.

    Main disadvantage would be that there are plenty of locations in large buildings where no GPS signal reaches but where MSF might be usable.
    Also there is lot of complex mathematics going on in the receiver which,
    at least in theory, could mean more chance of bugs in cheap devices.

    --
    Brian Gregory (in England).

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
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  • From Brian Gregory@21:1/5 to Scott on Fri Sep 24 17:30:17 2021
    On 20/09/2021 12:57, Scott wrote:
    Thanks. The diagnosis was correct but the repair was less successful.
    After removing 10 screws I was able to remove the glass and get to the
    hands. However, the circle with the numbers on it had become
    detached. I tried to glue it but the glue escaped and got on the
    circle. I tried to remove the glue with a solvent and this damaged
    the number 12.

    Sometimes the clock module behind the face is only held by the central
    fixing and can rotate slightly away from the correct position which has
    the effect of making it seem like the clock is a minute or two fast or
    slow. It's easy to fix, typically no dismantling required, just gently
    try to rotate the clock module a few degrees.

    --
    Brian Gregory (in England).

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
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  • From Max Demian@21:1/5 to Brian Gregory on Fri Sep 24 17:48:29 2021
    On 24/09/2021 17:40, Brian Gregory wrote:
    On 23/09/2021 17:30, Max Demian wrote:

    I don't think there is any intention that the Anthorn transmitter
    provide a continuous time signal; radio controlled clocks are expected
    to have a (presumably quartz) circuit that is synchronised by radio
    periodically.

    It is normally continuous (ignoring that it can take up to nearly 2
    minutes to receive two complete time messages and check for consistency, which is IMHO the minimum error checking any modern MSF clock should do).

    They do often switch it off a few days a year to repaint the aerial
    masts etc. Even then if possible they put it back on at night.

    So it's not continuous and you need a quartz backup, unlike master/slave
    clock arrangements (which would include synchronous clocks). The main
    advantage domestically of radio controlled clocks is that it corrects
    itself if there is an interruption (such as a power cut in the case of synchronous clocks) and it adjusts for daylight saving time.

    --
    Max Demian

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
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  • From Brian Gregory@21:1/5 to Max Demian on Fri Sep 24 17:40:48 2021
    On 23/09/2021 17:30, Max Demian wrote:
    I don't think there is any intention that the Anthorn transmitter
    provide a continuous time signal; radio controlled clocks are expected
    to have a (presumably quartz) circuit that is synchronised by radio periodically.

    It is normally continuous (ignoring that it can take up to nearly 2
    minutes to receive two complete time messages and check for consistency,
    which is IMHO the minimum error checking any modern MSF clock should do).

    They do often switch it off a few days a year to repaint the aerial
    masts etc. Even then if possible they put it back on at night.

    --
    Brian Gregory (in England).

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
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  • From Tweed@21:1/5 to Brian Gregory on Fri Sep 24 17:30:37 2021
    Brian Gregory <void-invalid-dead-dontuse@email.invalid> wrote:
    On 21/09/2021 15:25, Scott wrote:
    On Tue, 21 Sep 2021 15:15:31 +0100, John Williamson
    <johnwilliamson@btinternet.com> wrote:

    On 21/09/2021 13:48, Scott wrote:
    On Tue, 21 Sep 2021 13:20:25 +0100, "J. P. Gilliver (John)"
    <G6JPG@255soft.uk> wrote:

    On Tue, 21 Sep 2021 at 12:22:32, Scott <newsgroups@gefion.myzen.co.uk> >>>>> wrote (my responses usually follow points raised):
    On Tue, 21 Sep 2021 11:51:58 +0100, John Williamson
    <johnwilliamson@btinternet.com> wrote:
    []
    Just to add that it would probably be cheaper now to just install a GPS >>>>>>> unit in each room, as long as you could get a signal than install a >>>>>>> master/slave system.

    Why would GPS be better than MSF, where the thread started?

    Not better, but might be cheaper and/or work better; GPS receivers are >>>>> now cheap, common, and compact; I don't think MSF ones are any of those, >>>>> and may also (isn't it VLF?) be more orientation- and
    position-sensitive.

    MSF is certainly compact as it's part of the clock:
    https://www.argos.co.uk/product/8438997?clickSR=slp:term:radio%20controlled%20wall%20clock:2:135:1
    I'll leave you to decide whether £15 is cheap.

    Cheap enough, but all we can tell is that the receiver is smaller than
    the clock face. The independent module I found is about 200x100x15mm mm, >>> including the aerial but which needs an external power supply, and which >>> needs to be that size due to the wavelength of the signal.

    I would have thought fitting the clock was the sole consideration.

    My independent Satnav receiver is about 50mm square, and is about 10 mm
    thick including a battery that will last up to 12 hours. The circuit
    board is about 4mm thick including all components, a bluetooth interface >>> and a printed on antenna.

    My clock battery lasts about 12 months, never mind 12 hours. I am
    unconvinced about the merits of GPS horology.


    The way I see it the main advantage of GPS would be much better immunity
    to impulse noise and interference from nearby switch mode power
    supplies, light dimmers, unscreened plastic cased digital devices and so
    on. Also almost zero chance of syncing to the incorrect time because of modern more robust error checking in GPS compared to simple parity bits
    in MSF.

    Main disadvantage would be that there are plenty of locations in large buildings where no GPS signal reaches but where MSF might be usable.
    Also there is lot of complex mathematics going on in the receiver which,
    at least in theory, could mean more chance of bugs in cheap devices.


    Where WiFi (or even wired Ethernet) is available NTP is the best means of getting accurate time. Multiple time servers can be specified just in case
    one is unreachable. You do need GPS for sub microsecond accuracy though.

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
    * Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)
  • From Paul Ratcliffe@21:1/5 to MB@nospam.net on Fri Sep 24 19:16:08 2021
    On Tue, 21 Sep 2021 17:01:22 +0100, MB <MB@nospam.net> wrote:

    On 21/09/2021 13:20, J. P. Gilliver (John) wrote:
    Not better, but might be cheaper and/or work better; GPS receivers are
    now cheap, common, and compact; I don't think MSF ones are any of those,
    and may also (isn't it VLF?) be more orientation- and
    position-sensitive.

    The big disadvantage of MSF was it being off one day a week and longer
    once a year.

    It was once a month, for a morning or so, usually.
    The longer periods could be anything from a few days to a few weeks,
    although ISTR they restored service when they could (usually overnight).

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
    * Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)
  • From Paul Ratcliffe@21:1/5 to void-invalid-dead-dontuse@email.inv on Fri Sep 24 19:30:37 2021
    On Fri, 24 Sep 2021 17:40:48 +0100, Brian Gregory <void-invalid-dead-dontuse@email.invalid> wrote:

    On 23/09/2021 17:30, Max Demian wrote:
    I don't think there is any intention that the Anthorn transmitter
    provide a continuous time signal; radio controlled clocks are expected
    to have a (presumably quartz) circuit that is synchronised by radio
    periodically.

    It is normally continuous (ignoring that it can take up to nearly 2
    minutes to receive two complete time messages and check for consistency, which is IMHO the minimum error checking any modern MSF clock should do).

    It can take nearly 3 minutes to receive 2 complete messages, if you just
    miss the start of the first one.

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
    * Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)
  • From Tweed@21:1/5 to Scott on Sun Sep 26 14:01:59 2021
    Scott <newsgroups@gefion.myzen.co.uk> wrote:
    On Fri, 24 Sep 2021 17:30:37 -0000 (UTC), Tweed
    <usenet.tweed@gmail.com> wrote:

    Brian Gregory <void-invalid-dead-dontuse@email.invalid> wrote:
    On 21/09/2021 15:25, Scott wrote:
    On Tue, 21 Sep 2021 15:15:31 +0100, John Williamson
    <johnwilliamson@btinternet.com> wrote:

    On 21/09/2021 13:48, Scott wrote:
    On Tue, 21 Sep 2021 13:20:25 +0100, "J. P. Gilliver (John)"
    <G6JPG@255soft.uk> wrote:

    On Tue, 21 Sep 2021 at 12:22:32, Scott <newsgroups@gefion.myzen.co.uk> >>>>>>> wrote (my responses usually follow points raised):
    On Tue, 21 Sep 2021 11:51:58 +0100, John Williamson
    <johnwilliamson@btinternet.com> wrote:
    []
    Just to add that it would probably be cheaper now to just install a GPS
    unit in each room, as long as you could get a signal than install a >>>>>>>>> master/slave system.

    Why would GPS be better than MSF, where the thread started?

    Not better, but might be cheaper and/or work better; GPS receivers are >>>>>>> now cheap, common, and compact; I don't think MSF ones are any of those,
    and may also (isn't it VLF?) be more orientation- and
    position-sensitive.

    MSF is certainly compact as it's part of the clock:
    https://www.argos.co.uk/product/8438997?clickSR=slp:term:radio%20controlled%20wall%20clock:2:135:1
    I'll leave you to decide whether £15 is cheap.

    Cheap enough, but all we can tell is that the receiver is smaller than >>>>> the clock face. The independent module I found is about 200x100x15mm mm, >>>>> including the aerial but which needs an external power supply, and which >>>>> needs to be that size due to the wavelength of the signal.

    I would have thought fitting the clock was the sole consideration.

    My independent Satnav receiver is about 50mm square, and is about 10 mm >>>>> thick including a battery that will last up to 12 hours. The circuit >>>>> board is about 4mm thick including all components, a bluetooth interface >>>>> and a printed on antenna.

    My clock battery lasts about 12 months, never mind 12 hours. I am
    unconvinced about the merits of GPS horology.

    The way I see it the main advantage of GPS would be much better immunity >>> to impulse noise and interference from nearby switch mode power
    supplies, light dimmers, unscreened plastic cased digital devices and so >>> on. Also almost zero chance of syncing to the incorrect time because of
    modern more robust error checking in GPS compared to simple parity bits
    in MSF.

    Main disadvantage would be that there are plenty of locations in large
    buildings where no GPS signal reaches but where MSF might be usable.
    Also there is lot of complex mathematics going on in the receiver which, >>> at least in theory, could mean more chance of bugs in cheap devices.

    Where WiFi (or even wired Ethernet) is available NTP is the best means of
    getting accurate time. Multiple time servers can be specified just in case >> one is unreachable. You do need GPS for sub microsecond accuracy though.

    That's an interesting suggestion. Do such products exist at present
    and could they be sold for £15? What about battery consumption? The
    radio controlled clock AIUI only checks the time periodically, which
    allows the battery to last for more than a year. Could a Wi-Fi clock
    operate in this way also?


    There’s no fundamental reason why something that uses a 2.4/5 GHz receiver and connects to a tcp/ip network should be more energy hungry than
    something that has a 60/77.5 kHz receiver and decodes a digital data
    stream. Chips that go to sleep and wake up periodically to save power are a known thing. Whether anyone thinks it worth their time developing something
    for such a low potential selling cost is another matter.

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
    * Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)
  • From Scott@21:1/5 to usenet.tweed@gmail.com on Sun Sep 26 14:48:16 2021
    On Fri, 24 Sep 2021 17:30:37 -0000 (UTC), Tweed
    <usenet.tweed@gmail.com> wrote:

    Brian Gregory <void-invalid-dead-dontuse@email.invalid> wrote:
    On 21/09/2021 15:25, Scott wrote:
    On Tue, 21 Sep 2021 15:15:31 +0100, John Williamson
    <johnwilliamson@btinternet.com> wrote:

    On 21/09/2021 13:48, Scott wrote:
    On Tue, 21 Sep 2021 13:20:25 +0100, "J. P. Gilliver (John)"
    <G6JPG@255soft.uk> wrote:

    On Tue, 21 Sep 2021 at 12:22:32, Scott <newsgroups@gefion.myzen.co.uk> >>>>>> wrote (my responses usually follow points raised):
    On Tue, 21 Sep 2021 11:51:58 +0100, John Williamson
    <johnwilliamson@btinternet.com> wrote:
    []
    Just to add that it would probably be cheaper now to just install a GPS
    unit in each room, as long as you could get a signal than install a >>>>>>>> master/slave system.

    Why would GPS be better than MSF, where the thread started?

    Not better, but might be cheaper and/or work better; GPS receivers are >>>>>> now cheap, common, and compact; I don't think MSF ones are any of those, >>>>>> and may also (isn't it VLF?) be more orientation- and
    position-sensitive.

    MSF is certainly compact as it's part of the clock:
    https://www.argos.co.uk/product/8438997?clickSR=slp:term:radio%20controlled%20wall%20clock:2:135:1
    I'll leave you to decide whether £15 is cheap.

    Cheap enough, but all we can tell is that the receiver is smaller than >>>> the clock face. The independent module I found is about 200x100x15mm mm, >>>> including the aerial but which needs an external power supply, and which >>>> needs to be that size due to the wavelength of the signal.

    I would have thought fitting the clock was the sole consideration.

    My independent Satnav receiver is about 50mm square, and is about 10 mm >>>> thick including a battery that will last up to 12 hours. The circuit
    board is about 4mm thick including all components, a bluetooth interface >>>> and a printed on antenna.

    My clock battery lasts about 12 months, never mind 12 hours. I am
    unconvinced about the merits of GPS horology.

    The way I see it the main advantage of GPS would be much better immunity
    to impulse noise and interference from nearby switch mode power
    supplies, light dimmers, unscreened plastic cased digital devices and so
    on. Also almost zero chance of syncing to the incorrect time because of
    modern more robust error checking in GPS compared to simple parity bits
    in MSF.

    Main disadvantage would be that there are plenty of locations in large
    buildings where no GPS signal reaches but where MSF might be usable.
    Also there is lot of complex mathematics going on in the receiver which,
    at least in theory, could mean more chance of bugs in cheap devices.

    Where WiFi (or even wired Ethernet) is available NTP is the best means of >getting accurate time. Multiple time servers can be specified just in case >one is unreachable. You do need GPS for sub microsecond accuracy though.

    That's an interesting suggestion. Do such products exist at present
    and could they be sold for £15? What about battery consumption? The
    radio controlled clock AIUI only checks the time periodically, which
    allows the battery to last for more than a year. Could a Wi-Fi clock
    operate in this way also?

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
    * Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)
  • From Scott@21:1/5 to void-invalid-dead-dontuse@email.inv on Sun Sep 26 15:02:33 2021
    On Fri, 24 Sep 2021 17:30:17 +0100, Brian Gregory <void-invalid-dead-dontuse@email.invalid> wrote:

    On 20/09/2021 12:57, Scott wrote:
    Thanks. The diagnosis was correct but the repair was less successful.
    After removing 10 screws I was able to remove the glass and get to the
    hands. However, the circle with the numbers on it had become
    detached. I tried to glue it but the glue escaped and got on the
    circle. I tried to remove the glue with a solvent and this damaged
    the number 12.

    Sometimes the clock module behind the face is only held by the central
    fixing and can rotate slightly away from the correct position which has
    the effect of making it seem like the clock is a minute or two fast or
    slow. It's easy to fix, typically no dismantling required, just gently
    try to rotate the clock module a few degrees.

    Thanks but too late now. The clockface circle had become loose and
    was pressing the hand against the glass each time it passed so I
    decided its time was up and paid £5 (after application of Nectar
    points) for a replacement.

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
    * Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)
  • From Scott@21:1/5 to G6JPG@255soft.uk on Sun Sep 26 14:55:19 2021
    On Thu, 23 Sep 2021 22:25:44 +0100, "J. P. Gilliver (John)"
    <G6JPG@255soft.uk> wrote:

    On Thu, 23 Sep 2021 at 09:24:56, Roderick Stewart ><rjfs@escapetime.myzen.co.uk> wrote (my responses usually follow points >raised):
    On Wed, 22 Sep 2021 17:49:15 +0100, MB <MB@nospam.net> wrote:

    How many use MSF? It is a lot of expense for very few users who can all >>>use other services.

    There are possibly millions of radio controlled clocks in households
    all over the country that would be rendered useless if the service
    were discontinued.

    Most have a quartz clock backup; I suspect the majority only have the >accurate time as a novelty that's nice to have.

    In my defence, I have four. I regard the extra cost as trivial
    (though it does mean the range of available clocks is limited) and
    there is the added benefit of automatic adjustment of the time. I
    thought it would shorten the battery life but it doesn't seem to make
    much difference.

    I think the quartz is more than just backup - used to allow the clock
    to check the time only periodically and improve battery life.

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
    * Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)
  • From Andy Burns@21:1/5 to Scott on Sun Sep 26 15:52:30 2021
    Scott wrote:

    Do such products exist at present
    and could they be sold for £15? What about battery consumption?
    Do you want a display? Or just hands?

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
    * Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)
  • From Andy Burns@21:1/5 to Scott on Sun Sep 26 16:58:29 2021
    Scott wrote:

    I was wondering about a traditional clockface (with hands) run via
    W-Fi rather than MSF.

    probably do-able, would only need to wake-up the wifi and NTP sync once a day?

    or it could have an e-ink display.

    just avoid the creeping featureitis from people want it to schedul your central heating or security lights, or godknowswhat

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
    * Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)
  • From Scott@21:1/5 to All on Sun Sep 26 16:51:39 2021
    On Sun, 26 Sep 2021 15:52:30 +0100, Andy Burns <usenet@andyburns.uk>
    wrote:

    Scott wrote:

    Do such products exist at present
    and could they be sold for £15? What about battery consumption?
    Do you want a display? Or just hands?

    I was wondering about a traditional clockface (with hands) run via
    W-Fi rather than MSF. Having said that, I don't really go with the
    criticism of MDF. I have used numerous radio controlled clocks over
    the years with no real problems. There was an improvement when the
    transmitter moved from Rugby to Cumbria.

    I will agree they can be problematic. I got a couple for the office
    and one in particular worked very badly and had to be suspended out of
    the window to get it started. They would sort themselves out at night
    when IT equipment was off and the signal was probably stronger. One
    might ask whether an office clock is needed at all nowadays.

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
    * Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)
  • From Paul Ratcliffe@21:1/5 to All on Sun Sep 26 20:00:30 2021
    On Sun, 26 Sep 2021 16:51:39 +0100, Scott <newsgroups@gefion.myzen.co.uk> wrote:

    There was an improvement when the transmitter moved from Rugby to Cumbria.

    That rather depends where you are. It got worse here as it's now much
    further away.

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
    * Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)
  • From Scott@21:1/5 to rjfs@escapetime.myzen.co.uk on Mon Sep 27 10:02:21 2021
    On Fri, 24 Sep 2021 10:29:42 +0100, Roderick Stewart <rjfs@escapetime.myzen.co.uk> wrote:

    On Thu, 23 Sep 2021 22:25:44 +0100, "J. P. Gilliver (John)" ><G6JPG@255soft.uk> wrote:

    There are possibly millions of radio controlled clocks in households
    all over the country that would be rendered useless if the service
    were discontinued.

    Most have a quartz clock backup; I suspect the majority only have the >>accurate time as a novelty that's nice to have.

    Yes, mine has a quartz backup, and will continue for a while if it
    loses the signal but will eventually try to resynchronise, which it
    does by quickly moving the hands to 12 o'clock and waiting for the
    signal to return. There is no other way of setting the time. The only
    control is a reset button. It would be useless if MSF disappeared.

    Mine allows you to disable MSF and set the time manually if required.

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
    * Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)
  • From Roderick Stewart@21:1/5 to usenet.tweed@gmail.com on Mon Sep 27 10:04:26 2021
    On Sun, 26 Sep 2021 14:01:59 -0000 (UTC), Tweed
    <usenet.tweed@gmail.com> wrote:

    That's an interesting suggestion. Do such products exist at present
    and could they be sold for £15? What about battery consumption? The
    radio controlled clock AIUI only checks the time periodically, which
    allows the battery to last for more than a year. Could a Wi-Fi clock
    operate in this way also?


    There’s no fundamental reason why something that uses a 2.4/5 GHz receiver >and connects to a tcp/ip network should be more energy hungry than
    something that has a 60/77.5 kHz receiver and decodes a digital data
    stream. Chips that go to sleep and wake up periodically to save power are a >known thing. Whether anyone thinks it worth their time developing something >for such a low potential selling cost is another matter.

    The most recent computer I built for a family member uses one of those
    mini PC boxes that can fix to the back of a monitor to make what is
    effectively an "all-in-one" unit, and during setting up I was
    interested to check the power consumption.

    When running, the PC *and* the monitor (24 inch) *and* a little USB
    gooseneck light from Ikea that I added just for fun and aimed at the
    keyboard all consumed just under 20W when running, and less than 1W in
    sleep mode, and only needs a couple of keypresses to wake it up. I've
    suggested that it's not even worth the bother of shutting it down and
    switching it off, as it probably consumes less than any of the other
    usual household gadgets that run continuously, such as the internet
    router, the cordless phone, the TV recorder, perhaps even the fridge.

    (The older computer it replaces, and which I'm currently trying to get
    rid of on Ebay consumes about 7W *in standby* and about ren times as
    much when running, and that's just the computer itself, not the
    monitor. That's progress).

    There are applications that will display the time in large digits on
    the screen, so it would be easy to make a computer double as a clock,
    and you can of course set the sleep timeout to whatever is convenient. Alternatively, if you don't need to use it as a computer, one of those
    little Amazon gadgets or equivalent would probably do. I haven't been
    tempted to get one, but judging by the pictures in the adverts, even
    some of the ones that don't have screens can display the time. Since
    they're internet connected, it presumably comes from an NTP server.

    Rod.

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
    * Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)
  • From Roderick Stewart@21:1/5 to newsgroups@gefion.myzen.co.uk on Mon Sep 27 10:47:33 2021
    On Mon, 27 Sep 2021 10:02:21 +0100, Scott
    <newsgroups@gefion.myzen.co.uk> wrote:

    On Fri, 24 Sep 2021 10:29:42 +0100, Roderick Stewart ><rjfs@escapetime.myzen.co.uk> wrote:

    On Thu, 23 Sep 2021 22:25:44 +0100, "J. P. Gilliver (John)" >><G6JPG@255soft.uk> wrote:

    There are possibly millions of radio controlled clocks in households >>>>all over the country that would be rendered useless if the service
    were discontinued.

    Most have a quartz clock backup; I suspect the majority only have the >>>accurate time as a novelty that's nice to have.

    Yes, mine has a quartz backup, and will continue for a while if it
    loses the signal but will eventually try to resynchronise, which it
    does by quickly moving the hands to 12 o'clock and waiting for the
    signal to return. There is no other way of setting the time. The only >>control is a reset button. It would be useless if MSF disappeared.

    Mine allows you to disable MSF and set the time manually if required.

    Mine's quite old, so maybe not representative of what can be achieved
    now, but it still works so I've no reason to get rid of it and would
    be annoyed if it were suddenly rendered inoperative by someone else.

    (It was purchased many years ago from Canford Audio, which some here
    will know as a provider of professional gubbins for broadcasters. At
    that time, radio cntrolled clocks were an expensive novelty, not yet
    readily available in the shops, probably not even known about by most
    people, but I happened to be working where I could purchase from
    professional broadcast suppliers, and it would be the most accurate
    time source possible because the internet hadn't been invented yet).

    Rod.

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
    * Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)
  • From MB@21:1/5 to Scott on Mon Sep 27 11:14:41 2021
    On 27/09/2021 10:02, Scott wrote:
    On Fri, 24 Sep 2021 10:29:42 +0100, Roderick Stewart <rjfs@escapetime.myzen.co.uk> wrote:

    On Thu, 23 Sep 2021 22:25:44 +0100, "J. P. Gilliver (John)"
    <G6JPG@255soft.uk> wrote:

    There are possibly millions of radio controlled clocks in households
    all over the country that would be rendered useless if the service
    were discontinued.
    Most have a quartz clock backup; I suspect the majority only have the
    accurate time as a novelty that's nice to have.
    Yes, mine has a quartz backup, and will continue for a while if it
    loses the signal but will eventually try to resynchronise, which it
    does by quickly moving the hands to 12 o'clock and waiting for the
    signal to return. There is no other way of setting the time. The only
    control is a reset button. It would be useless if MSF disappeared.

    Mine allows you to disable MSF and set the time manually if required.



    It is unusual to be able to set the time manually on radio-controlled
    clock. I have one that allows you to switch between WWV, DCF77, MSF and
    the Japanese equivalent.

    I suppose it might be thought of as a novelty but it just seems that if
    you are going to have a clock then it might as well as display the
    correct time. And it saves having to get up at 02:00 twice year to
    adjust the clocks. :-)

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
    * Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)
  • From John Williamson@21:1/5 to All on Mon Sep 27 12:04:10 2021
    On 27/09/2021 11:14, MB wrote:

    I suppose it might be thought of as a novelty but it just seems that if
    you are going to have a clock then it might as well as display the
    correct time. And it saves having to get up at 02:00 twice year to
    adjust the clocks. :-)

    <Grin> I'm often up for a while about then anyway. It's an age thing....

    --
    Tciao for Now!

    John.

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
    * Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)
  • From Scott@21:1/5 to MB@nospam.net on Mon Sep 27 12:25:28 2021
    On Mon, 27 Sep 2021 11:14:41 +0100, MB <MB@nospam.net> wrote:

    On 27/09/2021 10:02, Scott wrote:
    On Fri, 24 Sep 2021 10:29:42 +0100, Roderick Stewart
    <rjfs@escapetime.myzen.co.uk> wrote:

    On Thu, 23 Sep 2021 22:25:44 +0100, "J. P. Gilliver (John)"
    <G6JPG@255soft.uk> wrote:

    There are possibly millions of radio controlled clocks in households >>>>> all over the country that would be rendered useless if the service
    were discontinued.
    Most have a quartz clock backup; I suspect the majority only have the
    accurate time as a novelty that's nice to have.
    Yes, mine has a quartz backup, and will continue for a while if it
    loses the signal but will eventually try to resynchronise, which it
    does by quickly moving the hands to 12 o'clock and waiting for the
    signal to return. There is no other way of setting the time. The only
    control is a reset button. It would be useless if MSF disappeared.

    Mine allows you to disable MSF and set the time manually if required.

    It is unusual to be able to set the time manually on radio-controlled
    clock. I have one that allows you to switch between WWV, DCF77, MSF and
    the Japanese equivalent.

    I suppose it might be thought of as a novelty but it just seems that if
    you are going to have a clock then it might as well as display the
    correct time. And it saves having to get up at 02:00 twice year to
    adjust the clocks. :-)

    It says - Manual Time Setting: Press the "SET" button for 3+ seconds
    to activate the manual mode. Hold the "SET" button down to move the
    minute hand forward consistently to correct time.

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
    * Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)
  • From Scott@21:1/5 to abuse@orac12.clara34.co56.uk78 on Mon Sep 27 12:53:26 2021
    On Sun, 26 Sep 2021 20:00:30 GMT, Paul Ratcliffe <abuse@orac12.clara34.co56.uk78> wrote:

    On Sun, 26 Sep 2021 16:51:39 +0100, Scott <newsgroups@gefion.myzen.co.uk> >wrote:

    There was an improvement when the transmitter moved from Rugby to Cumbria.

    That rather depends where you are. It got worse here as it's now much
    further away.

    Indeed. I am much closer :-)

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
    * Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)
  • From Brian Gregory@21:1/5 to Paul Ratcliffe on Tue Sep 28 13:44:32 2021
    On 26/09/2021 21:00, Paul Ratcliffe wrote:
    On Sun, 26 Sep 2021 16:51:39 +0100, Scott <newsgroups@gefion.myzen.co.uk> wrote:

    There was an improvement when the transmitter moved from Rugby to Cumbria.

    That rather depends where you are. It got worse here as it's now much
    further away.

    Same here.
    Weaker now than in the Rugby days. I'm not sure exactly how much weaker
    but enough to make the difference between usable and not usable in a few
    cases.

    --
    Brian Gregory (in England).

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
    * Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)
  • From Brian Gregory@21:1/5 to Paul Ratcliffe on Tue Sep 28 13:37:18 2021
    On 24/09/2021 20:30, Paul Ratcliffe wrote:
    On Fri, 24 Sep 2021 17:40:48 +0100, Brian Gregory <void-invalid-dead-dontuse@email.invalid> wrote:

    On 23/09/2021 17:30, Max Demian wrote:
    I don't think there is any intention that the Anthorn transmitter
    provide a continuous time signal; radio controlled clocks are expected
    to have a (presumably quartz) circuit that is synchronised by radio
    periodically.

    It is normally continuous (ignoring that it can take up to nearly 2
    minutes to receive two complete time messages and check for consistency,
    which is IMHO the minimum error checking any modern MSF clock should do).

    It can take nearly 3 minutes to receive 2 complete messages, if you just
    miss the start of the first one.


    Oops. You are correct.

    --
    Brian Gregory (in England).

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
    * Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)
  • From Max Demian@21:1/5 to All on Sat Oct 2 11:21:49 2021
    On 18/09/2021 10:45, Scott wrote:

    The batteries in my "Kundo Spacetimer" (Anthorn) liquid crystal RC clock
    (in use since 1993) have given out and I can't get it to set itself
    (with fresh batteries). I've tried different times, orientations,
    locations inside and out, but it always gives up. I *can*, however set
    it manually.

    Is it just "too old"? I don't see why such a relatively simple solid
    state device should just fail suddenly, but what do I know?

    --
    Max Demian

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
    * Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)
  • From J. P. Gilliver (John)@21:1/5 to All on Sat Oct 2 13:36:19 2021
    On Sat, 2 Oct 2021 at 11:21:49, Max Demian <max_demian@bigfoot.com>
    wrote (my responses usually follow points raised):
    On 18/09/2021 10:45, Scott wrote:

    The batteries in my "Kundo Spacetimer" (Anthorn) liquid crystal RC
    clock (in use since 1993) have given out and I can't get it to set
    itself (with fresh batteries). I've tried different times,
    orientations, locations inside and out, but it always gives up. I
    *can*, however set it manually.

    Is it just "too old"? I don't see why such a relatively simple solid
    state device should just fail suddenly, but what do I know?

    Does the LCD have an icon showing whether it (thinks it) is receiving a
    signal from the time source? My AURIOL one (Lidl, some years ago - ran
    for many years on the cell supplied with it, even though it shows
    temperature too) does (the usual sort of mast with a ring round it). If
    so, does it show whether it is or not?

    (How many cells in the battery? I was surprised to discover that, though
    the compartment in mine has space for two, it ran fine on one; I think
    the other is for the backlight which I never use anyway.)

    I agree, I wouldn't expect it to fail suddenly - especially partially.
    My only thought is that either the receiver part failed, or the source
    it relies on ceased transmitting (or moved such that the signal at your location is now too low; do you know which one it uses?), some while
    ago, and it just carried on on its quartz backup.
    --
    J. P. Gilliver. UMRA: 1960/<1985 MB++G()AL-IS-Ch++(p)Ar@T+H+Sh0!:`)DNAf

    - Fan (to Fats Waller) "I want to be a drummer when I grow up."
    - Fats Waller "Son, you can't do both."
    [Tweeted by "Optopian @ImBuddhish" 2021-5-29]

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
    * Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)
  • From Max Demian@21:1/5 to All on Sat Oct 2 18:12:43 2021
    On 02/10/2021 13:36, J. P. Gilliver (John) wrote:
    On Sat, 2 Oct 2021 at 11:21:49, Max Demian <max_demian@bigfoot.com>
    wrote (my responses usually follow points raised):
    On 18/09/2021 10:45, Scott wrote:

    The batteries in my "Kundo Spacetimer" (Anthorn) liquid crystal RC
    clock (in use since 1993) have given out and I can't get it to set
    itself (with fresh batteries). I've tried different times,
    orientations, locations inside and out, but it always gives up. I
    *can*, however set it manually.

    Is it just "too old"? I don't see why such a relatively simple solid
    state device should just fail suddenly, but what do I know?

    Does the LCD have an icon showing whether it (thinks it) is receiving a signal from the time source? My AURIOL one (Lidl, some years ago - ran
    for many years on the cell supplied with it, even though it shows
    temperature too) does (the usual sort of mast with a ring round it). If
    so, does it show whether it is or not?

    It has an aerial symbol which flashes all the time. I think it does even
    when it's set to run manually.

    (How many cells in the battery? I was surprised to discover that, though
    the compartment in mine has space for two, it ran fine on one; I think
    the other is for the backlight which I never use anyway.)

    It uses two AAA alkaline cells. Both have to be inserted for it to work.

    I agree, I wouldn't expect it to fail suddenly - especially partially.
    My only thought is that either the receiver part failed, or the source
    it relies on ceased transmitting (or moved such that the signal at your location is now too low; do you know which one it uses?), some while
    ago, and it just carried on on its quartz backup.

    It uses the "MSF" transmitter in Anthorn. The web page [ https://www.npl.co.uk/msf-signal ] doesn't say that it's off at the moment.

    The battery has been in for some time, but for a long time it hasn't
    shown seconds. That seems to be an undocumented feature that shows that
    the battery is getting low, at least I've assumed that's what it's for.
    It failed (with the old batteries) when I pressed a button which also
    turns on the backlight, which must have caused the voltage to drop. It
    could be that the radio function was inoperable for some time, but it
    did change to British Summer Time in the Spring.

    --
    Max Demian

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
    * Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)
  • From Scott@21:1/5 to All on Tue Aug 29 17:54:54 2023
    My radio controlled clock (Lexon Flip+) gained 10 minutes. My first
    thought was that the battery might be flat and the clock stopped then restarted. However, it is a very new battery. My second thought was
    that the time signal (from Frankfurt) might have been affected by
    atmospheric conditions. However, this has never happened before and I
    cannot see how this could cause the clock to gain time. My third
    thought was a fault at the transmitter. However, I restarted the clock (removing the battery) and it picked up the time very quickly. I
    cannot see how a main transmitter for Europe could be faulty.

    I understood if the radio signal is lost, the clock has the ability to
    keep time internally (the radio control can be switched off). I am
    therefore mystified how this clock could gain 10 minutes. Any ideas?

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
    * Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)
  • From JMB99@21:1/5 to Scott on Tue Aug 29 18:52:56 2023
    On 29/08/2023 17:54, Scott wrote:
    I understood if the radio signal is lost, the clock has the ability to
    keep time internally (the radio control can be switched off). I am
    therefore mystified how this clock could gain 10 minutes. Any ideas?


    People often think that the clocks are synchronised to a Standard
    Frequency Station all the time but most only update periodically. It
    might be several times a day or only once a day.

    Many indicate how long since the last update.

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
    * Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)
  • From J. P. Gilliver@21:1/5 to Scott on Tue Aug 29 18:16:39 2023
    In message <i58sei1im50lm8701mvn707g4ok4vvne6j@4ax.com> at Tue, 29 Aug
    2023 17:54:54, Scott <newsgroups@gefion.myzen.co.uk> writes
    My radio controlled clock (Lexon Flip+) gained 10 minutes. My first
    thought was that the battery might be flat and the clock stopped then >restarted. However, it is a very new battery. My second thought was
    that the time signal (from Frankfurt) might have been affected by
    atmospheric conditions. However, this has never happened before and I
    cannot see how this could cause the clock to gain time. My third
    thought was a fault at the transmitter. However, I restarted the clock >(removing the battery) and it picked up the time very quickly. I
    cannot see how a main transmitter for Europe could be faulty.

    I understood if the radio signal is lost, the clock has the ability to
    keep time internally (the radio control can be switched off). I am
    therefore mystified how this clock could gain 10 minutes. Any ideas?

    Just one bad decode? (Maybe the 'fridge kicked in at the precise moment
    the update code was received?) Though that _ought_ of course to have
    corrected itself next update (do you know how often - once a minute?). I suppose the combined system - radio decoder and free-running backup -
    _could_ just get into some condition where it remains ten minutes out.

    I continue to be amazed that my cheap one from Lidl runs for many years
    on a single AA cell (and yes, it really is receiving). [I thought it
    needed two cells, then I worked out that one was only needed for the pressbutton backlight!]
    --
    J. P. Gilliver. UMRA: 1960/<1985 MB++G()AL-IS-Ch++(p)Ar@T+H+Sh0!:`)DNAf

    "... all your hard work in the hands of twelve people too stupid to get off jury
    duty." CSI, 200x

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
    * Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)
  • From Woody@21:1/5 to All on Tue Aug 29 19:00:49 2023
    On Tue 29/08/2023 18:52, JMB99 wrote:
    On 29/08/2023 17:54, Scott wrote:
    I understood if the radio signal is lost, the clock has the ability to
    keep time internally (the radio control can be switched off). I am
    therefore mystified how this clock could gain 10 minutes. Any ideas?


    People often think that the clocks are synchronised to a Standard
    Frequency Station all the time but most only update periodically.  It
    might be several times a day or only once a day.

    Many indicate how long since the last update.



    Most clocks synchronise at 04h00 to make sure they don't crash with DST start/stop.

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
    * Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)
  • From Brian Gregory@21:1/5 to Scott on Tue Aug 29 19:02:26 2023
    On 29/08/2023 17:54, Scott wrote:
    My radio controlled clock (Lexon Flip+) gained 10 minutes. My first
    thought was that the battery might be flat and the clock stopped then restarted. However, it is a very new battery. My second thought was
    that the time signal (from Frankfurt) might have been affected by
    atmospheric conditions. However, this has never happened before and I
    cannot see how this could cause the clock to gain time. My third
    thought was a fault at the transmitter. However, I restarted the clock (removing the battery) and it picked up the time very quickly. I
    cannot see how a main transmitter for Europe could be faulty.

    I understood if the radio signal is lost, the clock has the ability to
    keep time internally (the radio control can be switched off). I am
    therefore mystified how this clock could gain 10 minutes. Any ideas?

    A 1 bit error in decoding the binary coded decimal time could throw the
    time off by 1, 2, 4, 8, 10, 20 or 40 minutes or 1, 2, 4, 8, 10 or 20 hours.

    The error checking is probably only a very crude parity or checksum
    and/or it reads the signal twice and checks for consistency so it's
    unlikely but definitely possible for this to happen.

    Once that has happened the clock stays wrong until next time it turns on
    its receiver typically in the small hours around 24 hours later.

    --
    Brian Gregory (in England).

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
    * Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)
  • From Brian Gregory@21:1/5 to Woody on Tue Aug 29 19:06:54 2023
    On 29/08/2023 19:00, Woody wrote:
    Most clocks synchronise at 04h00 to make sure they don't crash with DST start/stop.

    I've never owned one that didn't sync at 0100 standard time or 0200
    daylight saving time, That is immediately after any time change.

    --
    Brian Gregory (in England).

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
    * Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)
  • From Scott@21:1/5 to void-invalid-dead-dontuse@email.inv on Tue Aug 29 20:55:20 2023
    On Tue, 29 Aug 2023 19:02:26 +0100, Brian Gregory <void-invalid-dead-dontuse@email.invalid> wrote:

    On 29/08/2023 17:54, Scott wrote:
    My radio controlled clock (Lexon Flip+) gained 10 minutes. My first
    thought was that the battery might be flat and the clock stopped then
    restarted. However, it is a very new battery. My second thought was
    that the time signal (from Frankfurt) might have been affected by
    atmospheric conditions. However, this has never happened before and I
    cannot see how this could cause the clock to gain time. My third
    thought was a fault at the transmitter. However, I restarted the clock
    (removing the battery) and it picked up the time very quickly. I
    cannot see how a main transmitter for Europe could be faulty.

    I understood if the radio signal is lost, the clock has the ability to
    keep time internally (the radio control can be switched off). I am
    therefore mystified how this clock could gain 10 minutes. Any ideas?

    A 1 bit error in decoding the binary coded decimal time could throw the
    time off by 1, 2, 4, 8, 10, 20 or 40 minutes or 1, 2, 4, 8, 10 or 20 hours.

    The error checking is probably only a very crude parity or checksum
    and/or it reads the signal twice and checks for consistency so it's
    unlikely but definitely possible for this to happen.

    Once that has happened the clock stays wrong until next time it turns on
    its receiver typically in the small hours around 24 hours later.

    Thanks for this. It seems more likely than the clock gaining 10
    minutes between signal checks.

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
    * Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)
  • From J. P. Gilliver@21:1/5 to mb@nospam.net on Wed Aug 30 02:08:35 2023
    In message <uclb9p$2bpib$1@dont-email.me> at Tue, 29 Aug 2023 18:52:56,
    JMB99 <mb@nospam.net> writes
    On 29/08/2023 17:54, Scott wrote:
    I understood if the radio signal is lost, the clock has the ability
    to keep time internally (the radio control can be switched off). I am >>therefore mystified how this clock could gain 10 minutes. Any ideas?


    People often think that the clocks are synchronised to a Standard
    Frequency Station all the time but most only update periodically. It
    might be several times a day or only once a day.

    Many indicate how long since the last update.


    Many - LCD ones, anyway, not sure about mechanical ones - have a symbol
    to show whether they're receiving the radio signal. I get the impression
    that they don't go _that_ long without a correction (again, mechanical
    ones may be less often for battery reasons).
    --
    J. P. Gilliver. UMRA: 1960/<1985 MB++G()AL-IS-Ch++(p)Ar@T+H+Sh0!:`)DNAf

    I don't see the requirement to upset people. ... There's enough to make fun of without offending. - Ronnie Corbett, in Radio Times 6-12 August 2011.

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
    * Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)
  • From JMB99@21:1/5 to J. P. Gilliver on Wed Aug 30 11:06:24 2023
    On 30/08/2023 02:08, J. P. Gilliver wrote:
    Many - LCD ones, anyway, not sure about mechanical ones - have a symbol
    to show whether they're receiving the radio signal. I get the impression
    that they don't go _that_ long without a correction (again, mechanical
    ones may be less often for battery reasons).


    My first Junghans displayed how many hours since the last update, I
    think if it fails to update first time then it keeps retrying at
    intervals so can be seen to update during the day.

    My second Junghans is a proper folding travel clock but it has died.
    pity because I liked that one.

    I have a Braun one as well, I once went away for the week and forget to
    take an alarm clock so bought the Braun. Never liked it as much as the Junghans but it can be switched between about four different Standard
    Frequency Stations (not I have ever used the US or Japanese ones!). The
    alarm has stopped working.

    I keep the original Junghans on my desk because it displays seconds so
    useful for setting the time on my wrist watch.

    I was just trying to find the second Junghans and came across the alarm
    clock that Crown Castle gave everyone one year, I had never taken it out
    of the box. Brilliant design, you are supposed to take to a
    'professional engineer' to get the battery changed so probably all
    corroded now. The instruction tells you how to set the time but there
    does not seem any way to do so because it does not have the adjuster on
    the side! Perhaps symbolic of Crown Castle.

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
    * Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)
  • From MikeS@21:1/5 to Scott on Thu Aug 31 12:37:03 2023
    On 29/08/2023 20:55, Scott wrote:
    On Tue, 29 Aug 2023 19:02:26 +0100, Brian Gregory <void-invalid-dead-dontuse@email.invalid> wrote:

    On 29/08/2023 17:54, Scott wrote:
    My radio controlled clock (Lexon Flip+) gained 10 minutes. My first
    thought was that the battery might be flat and the clock stopped then
    restarted. However, it is a very new battery. My second thought was
    that the time signal (from Frankfurt) might have been affected by
    atmospheric conditions. However, this has never happened before and I
    cannot see how this could cause the clock to gain time. My third
    thought was a fault at the transmitter. However, I restarted the clock
    (removing the battery) and it picked up the time very quickly. I
    cannot see how a main transmitter for Europe could be faulty.

    I understood if the radio signal is lost, the clock has the ability to
    keep time internally (the radio control can be switched off). I am
    therefore mystified how this clock could gain 10 minutes. Any ideas?

    A 1 bit error in decoding the binary coded decimal time could throw the
    time off by 1, 2, 4, 8, 10, 20 or 40 minutes or 1, 2, 4, 8, 10 or 20 hours. >>
    The error checking is probably only a very crude parity or checksum
    and/or it reads the signal twice and checks for consistency so it's
    unlikely but definitely possible for this to happen.

    Once that has happened the clock stays wrong until next time it turns on
    its receiver typically in the small hours around 24 hours later.

    Thanks for this. It seems more likely than the clock gaining 10
    minutes between signal checks.

    I have 3 radio wall clocks plus one in a weather station and am
    convinced this is an interference problem with cheap clocks.

    The oldest wall and the weather station were made in Germany, probably
    use their PTB time signal, and have never had a problem. The other 2
    wall are cheap ones from Argos and both have irregular gliches, either
    going crazy or showing wrong time. They might use the same signal but
    more likely the closer NPL one. Not a battery issue - I wasted money on batteries until I realised that a quick reset would usually suffice.

    At this moment all 4 have been perfect for weeks, showing identical
    times to the second.

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
    * Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)
  • From Scott@21:1/5 to MikeS on Thu Aug 31 13:28:07 2023
    On Thu, 31 Aug 2023 12:37:03 +0100, MikeS <MikeS@fred.com> wrote:

    On 29/08/2023 20:55, Scott wrote:
    On Tue, 29 Aug 2023 19:02:26 +0100, Brian Gregory
    <void-invalid-dead-dontuse@email.invalid> wrote:

    On 29/08/2023 17:54, Scott wrote:
    My radio controlled clock (Lexon Flip+) gained 10 minutes. My first
    thought was that the battery might be flat and the clock stopped then
    restarted. However, it is a very new battery. My second thought was
    that the time signal (from Frankfurt) might have been affected by
    atmospheric conditions. However, this has never happened before and I
    cannot see how this could cause the clock to gain time. My third
    thought was a fault at the transmitter. However, I restarted the clock >>>> (removing the battery) and it picked up the time very quickly. I
    cannot see how a main transmitter for Europe could be faulty.

    I understood if the radio signal is lost, the clock has the ability to >>>> keep time internally (the radio control can be switched off). I am
    therefore mystified how this clock could gain 10 minutes. Any ideas?

    A 1 bit error in decoding the binary coded decimal time could throw the
    time off by 1, 2, 4, 8, 10, 20 or 40 minutes or 1, 2, 4, 8, 10 or 20 hours. >>>
    The error checking is probably only a very crude parity or checksum
    and/or it reads the signal twice and checks for consistency so it's
    unlikely but definitely possible for this to happen.

    Once that has happened the clock stays wrong until next time it turns on >>> its receiver typically in the small hours around 24 hours later.

    Thanks for this. It seems more likely than the clock gaining 10
    minutes between signal checks.

    I have 3 radio wall clocks plus one in a weather station and am
    convinced this is an interference problem with cheap clocks.

    The oldest wall and the weather station were made in Germany, probably
    use their PTB time signal, and have never had a problem. The other 2
    wall are cheap ones from Argos and both have irregular gliches, either
    going crazy or showing wrong time. They might use the same signal but
    more likely the closer NPL one. Not a battery issue - I wasted money on >batteries until I realised that a quick reset would usually suffice.

    At this moment all 4 have been perfect for weeks, showing identical
    times to the second.

    Do you think atmospherics have a part to play?

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
    * Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)
  • From Woody@21:1/5 to Scott on Thu Aug 31 14:45:13 2023
    On Thu 31/08/2023 13:28, Scott wrote:
    On Thu, 31 Aug 2023 12:37:03 +0100, MikeS <MikeS@fred.com> wrote:

    On 29/08/2023 20:55, Scott wrote:
    On Tue, 29 Aug 2023 19:02:26 +0100, Brian Gregory
    <void-invalid-dead-dontuse@email.invalid> wrote:

    On 29/08/2023 17:54, Scott wrote:
    My radio controlled clock (Lexon Flip+) gained 10 minutes. My first
    thought was that the battery might be flat and the clock stopped then >>>>> restarted. However, it is a very new battery. My second thought was
    that the time signal (from Frankfurt) might have been affected by
    atmospheric conditions. However, this has never happened before and I >>>>> cannot see how this could cause the clock to gain time. My third
    thought was a fault at the transmitter. However, I restarted the clock >>>>> (removing the battery) and it picked up the time very quickly. I
    cannot see how a main transmitter for Europe could be faulty.

    I understood if the radio signal is lost, the clock has the ability to >>>>> keep time internally (the radio control can be switched off). I am
    therefore mystified how this clock could gain 10 minutes. Any ideas?

    A 1 bit error in decoding the binary coded decimal time could throw the >>>> time off by 1, 2, 4, 8, 10, 20 or 40 minutes or 1, 2, 4, 8, 10 or 20 hours.

    The error checking is probably only a very crude parity or checksum
    and/or it reads the signal twice and checks for consistency so it's
    unlikely but definitely possible for this to happen.

    Once that has happened the clock stays wrong until next time it turns on >>>> its receiver typically in the small hours around 24 hours later.

    Thanks for this. It seems more likely than the clock gaining 10
    minutes between signal checks.

    I have 3 radio wall clocks plus one in a weather station and am
    convinced this is an interference problem with cheap clocks.

    The oldest wall and the weather station were made in Germany, probably
    use their PTB time signal, and have never had a problem. The other 2
    wall are cheap ones from Argos and both have irregular gliches, either
    going crazy or showing wrong time. They might use the same signal but
    more likely the closer NPL one. Not a battery issue - I wasted money on
    batteries until I realised that a quick reset would usually suffice.

    At this moment all 4 have been perfect for weeks, showing identical
    times to the second.

    Do you think atmospherics have a part to play?


    The biggest problem is range.

    DCF near Frankfurt on 77.5khz is supposed to have a range of 1500km
    during the day but IME it is not as good as that - maybe 1000km most
    days - but it does work fairly reliably here in Harrogate.

    When MSF on 60khz was at Rugby it would work solidly 24/7, but since it
    was moved to Anthorn, about 7m NNW of Wigton in NW Cumbria, it is
    rubbish. If I check any of my clocks (daftly against my PC which uses
    NPL) and the clock is in error I have no option but to restart it and
    place it on a bedroom windowsill at the back of the house (which faces
    NNE), put it anywhere else in the house and it might (downhill with a
    following wind) get the time anything up to 48hrs or more later.

    I used to have a cheap off-air watch and that was solid as a rock.

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
    * Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)
  • From Scott@21:1/5 to All on Thu Aug 31 15:28:14 2023
    On Thu, 31 Aug 2023 14:45:13 +0100, Woody <harrogate3@ntlworld.com>
    wrote:
    [snip]

    Do you think atmospherics have a part to play?

    The biggest problem is range.

    DCF near Frankfurt on 77.5khz is supposed to have a range of 1500km
    during the day but IME it is not as good as that - maybe 1000km most
    days - but it does work fairly reliably here in Harrogate.

    I had an early radio controlled clock (MSF) when I was in Fife. It
    wouldn't work at first but after leaving it overnight on the window
    ledge, it worked. I assume propagation improves at night and night
    time interference is unimportant?

    When MSF on 60khz was at Rugby it would work solidly 24/7, but since it
    was moved to Anthorn, about 7m NNW of Wigton in NW Cumbria, it is
    rubbish. If I check any of my clocks (daftly against my PC which uses
    NPL) and the clock is in error I have no option but to restart it and
    place it on a bedroom windowsill at the back of the house (which faces
    NNE), put it anywhere else in the house and it might (downhill with a >following wind) get the time anything up to 48hrs or more later.

    Being in Scotland, I think this represents an improvement as we are a
    lot closer to Cumbria (which I believe has been abolished). It always
    amused me when the A74 had a sign going north saying 'Welcome to
    Scotland' but going south it was 'Welcome to Cumbria'.

    I used to have a cheap off-air watch and that was solid as a rock.

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
    * Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)
  • From JMB99@21:1/5 to Woody on Thu Aug 31 15:17:09 2023
    On 31/08/2023 14:45, Woody wrote:
    DCF near Frankfurt on 77.5khz is supposed to have a range of 1500km
    during the day but IME it is not as good as that - maybe 1000km most
    days - but it does work fairly reliably here in Harrogate.


    Never had any serious problems with DCF77, it has the big advantage that
    it never goes off. They have standby site which is used during
    maintenance periods (you can even correct for the different location if
    using professional equipment).

    MSF is taken off for maintenance regularly (can't remember how and when
    but they publish times). My first MSF clock had the usual big bar
    across the top of the clock to cancel the alarm. This also switched the
    light on so had to be careful that not switched on in the suitcase in
    case battery ran down. So I sometimes took the battery out in transit
    because the time would set itself quickly, unless MSF was off and the
    clock had no method of manually setting the time!

    My other PC is used by Planeplotter and has to have accurate time so I
    have Meinburg NTP running.

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
    * Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)
  • From Roderick Stewart@21:1/5 to All on Thu Aug 31 15:36:53 2023
    On Thu, 31 Aug 2023 14:45:13 +0100, Woody <harrogate3@ntlworld.com>
    wrote:

    When MSF on 60khz was at Rugby it would work solidly 24/7, but since it
    was moved to Anthorn, about 7m NNW of Wigton in NW Cumbria, it is
    rubbish.

    It's always been fine in Liverpool.

    Rod.

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
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  • From Woody@21:1/5 to Roderick Stewart on Thu Aug 31 16:20:08 2023
    On Thu 31/08/2023 15:36, Roderick Stewart wrote:
    On Thu, 31 Aug 2023 14:45:13 +0100, Woody <harrogate3@ntlworld.com>
    wrote:

    When MSF on 60khz was at Rugby it would work solidly 24/7, but since it
    was moved to Anthorn, about 7m NNW of Wigton in NW Cumbria, it is
    rubbish.

    It's always been fine in Liverpool.


    I suppose it could be local RFI which is why they work better on a
    windowsill or outside the house walls. I did a quick count about six
    months ago, we have something like 38 SMPS wall-warts permanently
    active. I wonder how much carp (like that?) they are throwing out?

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  • From Woody@21:1/5 to All on Thu Aug 31 16:17:20 2023
    On Thu 31/08/2023 15:17, JMB99 wrote:
    On 31/08/2023 14:45, Woody wrote:
    DCF near Frankfurt on 77.5khz is supposed to have a range of 1500km
    during the day but IME it is not as good as that - maybe 1000km most
    days - but it does work fairly reliably here in Harrogate.


    Never had any serious problems with DCF77, it has the big advantage that
    it never goes off.  They have standby site which is used during
    maintenance periods (you can even correct for the different location if
    using professional equipment).

    MSF is taken off for maintenance regularly (can't remember how and when
    but they publish times).  My first MSF clock had the usual big bar
    across the top of the clock to cancel the alarm.  This also switched the light on so had to be careful that not switched on in the suitcase in
    case battery ran down.  So I sometimes took the battery out in transit because the time would set itself quickly, unless MSF was off and the
    clock had no method of manually setting the time!

    My other PC is used by Planeplotter and has to have accurate time so I
    have Meinburg NTP running.




    I have two of those type clocks - had 'em for maybe 20 years - one sits
    in our conservatory and the other in my shed. IMSMC they take 2AA's and
    such batteries easily last two years and they are never wrong.

    I feed FlightRadar24 but NPL as the reference seems to work quite well
    for Windows 10 Pro. Given FR24 know <exactly> where I am located and
    which are my local active airfields I doubt they would have any problems adjusting my time data!

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  • From Woody@21:1/5 to All on Thu Aug 31 17:53:33 2023
    On Thu 31/08/2023 17:27, JMB99 wrote:
    On 31/08/2023 16:17, Woody wrote:
    I feed FlightRadar24 but NPL as the reference seems to work quite well
    for Windows 10 Pro. Given FR24 know <exactly> where I am located and
    which are my local active airfields I doubt they would have any
    problems adjusting my time data!


    I don't think FR24 accepts feeds from PCs so I don't feed it but I never
    use the site, much prefer ADS-B.



    If they don't accept them I wonder what I have been doing for the last
    2+ years?

    I have a receiver in the loft receiving ADS-B, pushes it into a RPi 3B
    which sends it to FR24. What is it that you do that is different?

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  • From JMB99@21:1/5 to Woody on Thu Aug 31 17:27:09 2023
    On 31/08/2023 16:17, Woody wrote:
    I feed FlightRadar24 but NPL as the reference seems to work quite well
    for Windows 10 Pro. Given FR24 know <exactly> where I am located and
    which are my local active airfields I doubt they would have any problems adjusting my time data!


    I don't think FR24 accepts feeds from PCs so I don't feed it but I never
    use the site, much prefer ADS-B.

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  • From JMB99@21:1/5 to Woody on Thu Aug 31 18:38:37 2023
    On 31/08/2023 17:53, Woody wrote:

    If they don't accept them I wonder what I have been doing for the last
    2+ years?

    I have a receiver in the loft receiving ADS-B, pushes it into a RPi 3B
    which sends it to FR24. What is it that you do that is different?


    This is what FR24 has on its website

    "Flightradar24 data sharing software is available for:
    Raspberry Pi
    Linux"

    No mention of anything else.

    Normally tracking sites do not allow data to be forwarded to another
    site. I had an argument years ago with a site that was taking my data
    off ShipPlotter and using it.

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  • From Paul Ratcliffe@21:1/5 to Woody on Thu Aug 31 18:10:42 2023
    On Thu, 31 Aug 2023 17:53:33 +0100, Woody <harrogate3@ntlworld.com> wrote:

    I don't think FR24 accepts feeds from PCs so I don't feed it but I never
    use the site, much prefer ADS-B.

    If they don't accept them I wonder what I have been doing for the last
    2+ years?

    I have a receiver in the loft receiving ADS-B, pushes it into a RPi 3B
    which sends it to FR24.

    A Raspberry Pi is not a PC though is it? Read what was written.

    You *can* use a PC, as long as it is running Linux.
    I know, stupid people think PCs only run Windows, but they really don't.

    I run my RX on a Pi 2B.

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  • From JMB99@21:1/5 to Paul Ratcliffe on Thu Aug 31 20:16:38 2023
    On 31/08/2023 19:10, Paul Ratcliffe wrote:
    You *can* use a PC, as long as it is running Linux. I know, stupid
    people think PCs only run Windows, but they really don't.


    True but my PC is running Windows and not going to change it just
    because FR24 no longer support Windows.

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  • From Brian Gregory@21:1/5 to Scott on Thu Aug 31 20:22:45 2023
    On 31/08/2023 13:28, Scott wrote:
    Do you think atmospherics have a part to play?

    More likely Day/Night and "space weather" - sunspot numbers etc.

    The signals seem better late at night but maybe it's due to lack of
    local interference. I've never attempted to monitor and compare the
    signal strength with an SDR.

    --
    Brian Gregory (in England).

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  • From Brian Gaff@21:1/5 to Scott on Fri Sep 1 11:39:43 2023
    Well, it probably depends on how its built. early ones were simple decoders based on hardware and logic chips, but more and more are in fact using
    software running on a processor and its entirely possible for software to
    get corrupted and a reboot restores the original if some of the system
    relies on ram storage of things that were the corrupted bits.
    Brian

    --

    --:
    This newsgroup posting comes to you directly from...
    The Sofa of Brian Gaff...
    briang1@blueyonder.co.uk
    Blind user, so no pictures please
    Note this Signature is meaningless.!
    "Scott" <newsgroups@gefion.myzen.co.uk> wrote in message news:i58sei1im50lm8701mvn707g4ok4vvne6j@4ax.com...
    My radio controlled clock (Lexon Flip+) gained 10 minutes. My first
    thought was that the battery might be flat and the clock stopped then restarted. However, it is a very new battery. My second thought was
    that the time signal (from Frankfurt) might have been affected by
    atmospheric conditions. However, this has never happened before and I
    cannot see how this could cause the clock to gain time. My third
    thought was a fault at the transmitter. However, I restarted the clock (removing the battery) and it picked up the time very quickly. I
    cannot see how a main transmitter for Europe could be faulty.

    I understood if the radio signal is lost, the clock has the ability to
    keep time internally (the radio control can be switched off). I am
    therefore mystified how this clock could gain 10 minutes. Any ideas?

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